Community Oral History David Griffith Interviewed by Alyssa Kammerman 12 September 2023 RootsBridge LLC Mission Statement RootsBridge cultivates connection in communities and families through the transformative power of storytelling. Our mission is to compassionately record life histories, honor unique experiences and promote empathy through shared narratives. By encouraging individuals to step into another's shoes, we cultivate deeper bonds between storyteller and hearer. In the communities we serve, we foster a sense of unity and compassion. We are driven by our passion for providing a platform for marginalized voices to ensure that every story is heard and none are diminished. We believe in a community where everyone feels connected and finds a sense of belonging. Project Description The Union Station Centennial oral history project is a companion to the Museums at Union Station’s “Heart of Ogden” exhibit, which commemorates the 100-year anniversary of the opening of the current Union Station building on November 22, 1924. In honor of the centennial anniversary, Ogden City contracted with oral historian Alyssa Kammerman of RootsBridge LLC to collect fifteen oral histories from community members who shared memories associated with the Union Station in Ogden. The interviews encompass the 1930s to the present day, thus documenting the period when Union Station was actively functioning as a train station and its subsequent transformation into a museum and cultural center. Community members interviewed included former railroad employees, Union Station employees, residents of Ogden, city employees, and museum volunteers. The diverse range of interviewees reflects the diversity of Ogden and provides a comprehensive view of Union Station’s impact on the community as a cultural hub and a place of shared history. ~ Oral History Description ~ An oral history is the spoken account of historic events in one’s life from the unique and partial perspective of the narrator. It is a primary source and unique interpretation of one’s lived experience. Rights Management This work is the property of RootsBridge LLC and The Museums at Ogden Union Station. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching, and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text / as long as credit is given to RootsBridge LLC and Ogden Union Station. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Griffith, David, an oral history by Alyssa Kammerman (RootsBridge LLC), 12 September 2023, Centennial Oral History Project, Museums at Union Station, Ogden, UT. Oral History Interview September 12, 2023 Interviewer: Alyssa Kammerman Interviewee: David Griffith Abstract: This is an Oral History Interview with David Griffith, conducted September 12, 2023, for the 100 year anniversary of the Ogden Union Station. This interview was conducted at the Ogden Union Station by oral historian Alyssa Kammerman of RootsBridge LLC. During this interview, David shares his memories of his mother, Teddy Griffith, and her immense contributions to the Museums at Union Station as the executive director of the Union Station Development Corporation from 1977 - 1993. David shares Teddy’s love of Union Station and some of the challenges she faced while transforming the Union Station from an old train station into a museum and cultural center. AK: Today is September 12th, 2023. We are at the Ogden Union Station, speaking with David Griffith for Ogden Union Station’s Centennial exhibit. My name is Alyssa Kammerman, and I'll be conducting the interview. So thank you again for coming in and doing this. DG: Well, thanks for having me down. AK: I appreciate it. So starting out, I wanted to learn a little bit about your mom's background. Did she grow up in Ogden? Where is she from? DG: No, she was born in Detroit and her family lived in Detroit. Her dad was an M.D. and her mom was a mom and a community activist, which I'm sure was where Mom got some of her leanings towards community activism. She went to the 1 of 47 University of Michigan, so they were a Michigan family all the way. What brought them to Utah was the Air Force, as my dad was in the Air Force. My dad is Ken Griffith, and they met in Michigan. He was a Michigander also, well, he was a Michigan State guy. So they met and dated and eventually got married. He was in the Air Force, and just before they were to get married, he got stationed in Ramstein, Germany, at the base there. And so they actually got married in Germany and they got married twice. Essentially, a civil ceremony and then a church ceremony. Like, the mayor of Ramstein or some village married them, and then they got married in a church as well. So they went from Michigan, essentially, to Germany. My older brother was born there, and they came back and lived in Ohio. I was born in Dayton, Ohio, because Dad was with the Air Force there at Wright-Patterson, and then therefore sent to Michigan State for a master's degree. So we lived in Lansing, Michigan, and then that was the end of the Michigan ties. Well, our family's still back there, but as far as Mom and Dad and my two brothers and I, we got stationed at Hill Air Force Base in the Ogden area. Mom was super excited. She wanted to come west and then you couldn't take her out of the West. Dad got out of the Air Force when it would have come time to transfer somewhere else, because Mom just loved it here, loved the mountains and all the outdoor recreation. So that's how we came to be Utahns. And I would have been about five when we moved here in 1963. I hope I haven't left anything important out there. I mean, Michigan was the roots of both sides of our family there, in the Detroit area. My grandma, 2 of 47 Mom's mom, was quite involved in the University of Michigan at one point. I think she was Dean of Women at one point there. So, again, she had a community activist gene that she passed on to Mom, volunteering and stuff like that. AK: So I was actually gonna ask a little more about your grandmother's community activism. So what would she do? DG: You know, I don't know that much about it. I feel like I'm going to fail that question. I mean, it's pretty amazing. She was, I think, Dean of Women, maybe it was interim Dean of Women at University of Michigan. That's a pretty big task. After that, I don't know that much about her volunteerism. I should have said, because I left out, in World War Two, my grandpa was an M.D., but he signed up for the Medical Corps of the Army, and they were transferred to Rapid City, South Dakota. So during World War Two, my grandpa – we called him Pop – he led the family to live in Rapid City for a while while he treated veterans there in Rapid City at a hospital. AK: And is that picture of your mom as a teenager with her dad in uniform? DG: Yeah, that picture on the couch is with him in uniform. That's in Rapid City. AK: So tell me a little bit about your grandma’s role as the Dean of Women. Do you know what that entails or what that meant, exactly? DG: I do not know, I'm afraid. I doubt that there's an equivalent position nowadays. So I don't know. I think there's pretty much a vacuum in my mind about what Grandma's role was there. And I, you can see, I'm a little leery of even the title she held, because I'm not positive about it. AK: Ok, I was just curious because I've never heard of that before. 3 of 47 DG: Yeah, she was definitely some kind of an official at the University of Michigan, and it may have been interim, but she was quite a scholar, and she's a great person too. But I don't know, I think Mom took volunteerism to a new level, actually, beyond what Grandma had done. And Pop, my grandpa, he was in a day and age when doctors made house calls, you know, carrying a little black bag. So interesting times. But my brothers and I visited Michigan every other summer for all of our youth. So we got back there a lot and still know a lot about the area. AK: Okay, so you were born in Dayton, Ohio… DG: Yeah. An Air Force brat. AK: [Laughs] And then you said that your mom was really excited to come West. Why was she wanting to be out West if she's always been in Michigan? DG: [Laughs]. That's a great question. I don't know why, but she did some research on the Ogden area when they found out they were coming to Hill, and I think that's what triggered her excitement. She just thought this sounded great. And I was reading my Dad's journal last night. We asked him to write a journal of his life a few years ago. The family and I were reading some last night, and he said that Mom just loved the mountains and all the outdoor recreation things here. So once she got here, she was hooked. But as far as why she was excited to come, I think it was just research she did on the area. And I'm sure she loved Michigan, but she just fell in love with Utah. AK: That's cool. DG: It is. 4 of 47 AK: What was she like as a young mom before she got involved with the Ogden Union Station? DG: Yeah, well, she's a great mother, very attentive to us, but she had this huge creative beast inside of her that just had to get out, and she would express it in lots of different ways. And she would tackle just about anything, and still being a great mom to us when we were young. For instance, when we moved here, she finished the house's basement while Dad was at work during the days. I remember when I was five, holding, you know, studs on the wall for her to nail and drill. And she didn't know anything about construction, she would just tackle anything, so she finished the basement. And she was just a very handy, crafty-type person. While being a good mom, she would just tackle projects, and for instance, she didn't know anything about how to fiberglass something, but we bought a used canoe that needed some work, and she went down and got the fiberglass materials, and we took to it. Or in Sunset magazine, she would see how to build a skimmer kayak, you know, a do-it-yourself kayak, and we built two of them. She was just absolutely unafraid to tackle things she didn't know anything about. And it amazes me because in the age of YouTube, I mean, I tackle things, too, I don't know anything about. But there's so much information online where you can learn that she didn't have. I have no idea how she would work up the courage to try some of these things. And as a matter of fact, as she was transitioning to more out-of-the-home type interest, she started a candle business, and it was artistic candles, so not the candles that you would see in a candelabra. These were pieces of art, and 5 of 47 she would sculpture, mold clay into whatever scene she wanted it to be. It was usually something historical, Greek, Roman, or, like fleur-de-lis, stuff like that. Anyway, she would sculpt this out of clay by hand, and then she learned to pour silicone over that clay and to form the molds to pour the wax into. And then she would have this decorative wax image, and then she would melt that onto a big tube of wax to form different sizes and shapes of candles. And so she started a business in our house, which the brothers, we just hated because she was busy with it, and Christmas time was really busy packaging and selling these candles. But she was just ambitious – in a good way, not in a bad way – really ambitious, and she had to have some kind of outlet for all this creativity. And we'll be building the basement, fixing the canoe, building kayaks, or starting this candle business where these were all her designs---and she finally gave that up. And somewhere in there, she transitioned to more out-of-the-home interests like Junior League of Ogden, which was all volunteer. AK: Yeah, so tell me about that: Junior League of Ogden. DG: Yeah. Well, Junior League of Ogden is a volunteer organization of women who take on projects in the community. And I believe their goal is to start a project and get it kickstarted and well down the road, and then hand it off into the community so that it carries on. I don't know how Mom got interested in Junior League or what her connection was. It was probably through an acquaintance, I suppose. I think it was. And in some way I don't know, her interest in Junior League of Ogden, or the project she worked on in Junior League of Ogden, became focused on history and preservation of historical buildings and sites. 6 of 47 My wife followed her footsteps and joined Junior League of Ogden, but their project was totally different in my wife's era. It was something to help the community. I can't even remember what it was. But, they would take on different projects. And I talked to my wife yesterday, says, "Is it believable, given, you guys were trying to feed hungry children or clothe them and start projects that would continue on to help people. Is it believable that the project in Mom's day was historic preservation?" She says, "Absolutely. I mean, the Junior League takes a variety of projects and they carry on." So, I would have to say that part's a little fuzzy. I mean, she joins the Junior League, and I'm sure it was through acquaintances of people. Alls I know is the three of us were soon in the back of the station wagon, being hauled all over the place to see historic buildings. And, you know, one of the outcomes of that effort on her part, was to establish the historic district in Willard, Utah, of the Stone Houses, and it's quite a story. A guy named Shadrach Jones was a Mormon pioneer, an immigrant from... I think it was Wales, but it was one of the British countries. And he was a stonemason, and he built a whole handful of these very interesting stone houses up in Willard, and they're still there to this day. And Mom caught wind of that, and she was hauling us up there constantly to go check out these stone houses. But it wasn't just limited to Willard. We would take vacations every Easter to southern Utah, you know, to get some spring break from the snows, and we were constantly stopping at all the old historical buildings all around southern Utah. And she was into the history of Corinne, Utah, up north. There were some 7 of 47 interesting stories there about her taking us boys on these expeditions to go see these historical places. As you can imagine, we weren't totally interested at the time. We were probably in the age of 10 or so, but that's what we did. And so with us in tow, she would take off to see these historical places. AK: Just out of curiosity, what did she study at the University of Michigan? DG: Political Science. Yeah. So she has a bachelor's degree in political science. AK: And then, I'm interested in the fact that she loved Corinne, Utah, because I know Corinne wanted to have a Union Station for a while up there. Was she into railroad history as well? DG: Yes. And so obviously, her interests in history were varied because she's into the Stone Houses and Willard, and she's into the railroad history at Promontory and Corinne and here at the Union Station. And she was interested in pioneer history, too, and southern Utah, all the people that settled the area down there. So it was varied, but I think Corinne really interested her because of how large that town was at one point and how it nearly became Junction City instead of Ogden. And there was even a move, I understand, to have it be the capital of the State of Utah at one point. And the powers that be in Salt Lake didn't think that was going to be a good idea because Corinne was a very different place culturally than Salt Lake City. I think it was called Sin City at one time, right, because it was a railroad camp, and I think it was the wild, wild West there, from what I know of it and remember. So Mom was very interested in that, in Corinne, but eventually Willard kind of took over. I know she wrote a paper that was called "A Plan for the 8 of 47 Historic Preservation of the Willard Historic District" and had a coauthor there. And so, yeah, her historical interests were varied. AK: Do you know how long it took her to get the Willard houses on the historic register? DG: I don't. I don't. You know, I looked for a chronology of when she joined Junior League and when she eventually took a paid job, which was the Bicentennial Commission in Salt Lake, and I couldn't really find it. But from what I can piece together, I think she was probably doing this volunteer work regarding history with the Junior League of Ogden for probably six or seven years, is my guess and recollection, and it led to her pushing to get the Union Station here in Ogden on the National Register of Historic Sites. She did that while she was in Junior League before she ever dreamed of, I think, working here. AK: And do you know about the time period when she put this building on the National Register? DG: Well, the American bicentennial, obviously, was in 1976, and Mom went to work for them, but... And I'm thinking she went to work for them in '74, and she had worked to put Ogden's Union Station on the National Register of Historic Buildings before she went to the Bicentennial Commission. So I think '73 is probably, actually, a good estimate of when this... But maybe it's on a plaque around here somewhere, when it got added to the National Register and we could straighten out my history. But that period of time for her in the Junior League was pretty amazing. All volunteer. And here she gets interested in Corinne and Willard and Union Station and all this history in southern Utah. 9 of 47 AK: So what was she doing with the Bicentennial Commission, exactly? DG: Their charge was to start projects in celebration of America's Bicentennial. But they weren't related to the Revolutionary War or anything. It was about our history. So they had funds, and they would fund projects to renovate or create some public good in celebration of the Bicentennial. I don't have a lot of examples that come to mind, except this one: Ogden's Union Station received a grant from the Bicentennial Commission. I'm sure Mom was right behind that, if not initiating it, but I don't know that. But yeah, the Ogden Union Station received a grant from the Bicentennial Commission to try to get this project off the ground, to buy it from the railroads and start the renovation. But if you go around the state, you'll often see a little emblem that says, "This development was funded by the Utah Bicentennial Commission in 1976." Once in a while, you'll see that. That was a paid position, and she worked in the state Capitol building. Due to her nature, which we can talk about, she was really well-connected and she formed a lot of connections at the state level by working at the Capitol building. She was fairly well-acquainted with the governor and the governor's wife---Cal Rampton and his wife. They knew her by name, and over the years, all these connections helped her achieve her goals here at the Station. I think she was well thought of and well connected, both in Salt Lake and in Ogden. I was showing you a picture earlier: She took this job at the Capitol and was driving this '65 Chevy Station Wagon, which was quite beat-up by then, and Mom and Dad knew we needed a new car. And Mom went down and found this convertible Corvette at 17th and Washington at a used car lot, and we, the three 10 of 47 boys, we just couldn't believe that she was interested in this convertible black '67 Corvette, and then bought it. And that's what she would drive to Salt Lake for the rest of her time at the Bicentennial Commission. And, so, you know, three teenagers, we just thought that was absolutely amazing that Mom would buy this car and drive it to Salt Lake. And then after the Bicentennial Commission that's when she came to work here at the Station as Executive Director. AK: So when Teddy helped with putting the Union Station on the National Historic Register, how long had it been since the Union Station had stopped having passenger service? DG: You know, I don't know by my own recollection, but in reading some of the things to prepare for today, I think there's no clear step function line when the trains just quit. It just declined over time. But I think in that '76 time frame, I would say, the train service over here was done. Except for Amtrak service. I mean, you could still get a train ride through here on Amtrak, I think four years after it quit being a real train station. There was museums, and it was a community center and cultural center. You know, the Ogden Union Station, you could still get, catch an Amtrak here, but as far as what we would consider like 'real' passenger train service, I think it was in gradual decline for many years and then probably over by '76. AK: Okay. So when your mom really started working here, it was after she was done with the Bicentennial Commission, right? DG: Right. 11 of 47 AK: Okay. And the Union Station already had museums and everything, is that correct? DG: No, no, I'm sorry. I led you astray. What I was saying was, I think even after Mom came here and the renovation was quite well underway, you could still get an Amtrak train through here. But in '76, no. My recollection is that the lobby was still presentable for what little train service there was just before it ended, but the rest of the building was in total disrepair. So, she got the position here in '77 to be the executive director of this renovation. And the building was in terrible shape, with the possible exception of the lobby, because I think there was still some minimal train service with Amtrak. That's my recollection. But yeah, she was starting from scratch with the rest of the building and it was really rough. AK: So tell me about how she got that position, and what was the transition point from the Bicentennial Commission to the Union Station? DG: Those are great questions, and I wish I knew the inner workings of that. But, you know, she had some contact with Ogden Union Station as the Junior League volunteer to get it placed on the National Historic Register. And then through the Bicentennial Commission, clearly she had a mind towards the Station still as being a project for the Bicentennial Celebration, because the Bicentennial Commission made a grant towards the Union Station. So I'm sure it was, she was all about that. How she was approached or approached others about getting this executive directors job, I don't know. I can tell you what I believe, and it's because all those years in Junior League, she became so well-connected and so well-thought-of. You know, to say 12 of 47 someone's well-connected could be a negative connotation, but in this case it was a very, very positive connotation. Community leaders in Ogden definitely knew of her and she knew them through all of her Junior League work. So by the time the Bicentennial Commission wound down after '76, I think, you know, as I say, I don't know if she pursued this job or if it pursued her, because she was so well-thought-of and so well-connected. I believe it probably pursued her. But I don't know that. I was in high school, probably paying attention to other things than how she got this job. But I can tell you, just due to her nature, just her, the way she carried herself and the way she acted, I believe she was probably sought out for the job. She was an amazing person, the way about her. She had this strong drive to create and achieve things, but unlike a lot of hard-driving people, she was kind of the opposite. She was the opposite of a narcissist; She was an empath. Her tools were kindness, politeness, caring, empathy and humility, and this strange combination of this strong desire to achieve and create, and the drive that was within her was kind of offset by these other humble qualities. And I think people were always just attracted to her because of that combination. They knew she was going to take on difficult things and big things and just be totally committed and get it done. And yet, she could work through all this conflict and controversy and differences of opinion, and everyone would still be friends with her and admire her and love her. It was definitely her secret sauce, was just her nature, and it was just who she was, and she was that way ‘til the end of her life. 13 of 47 Like I say, it was kind of a 'secret sauce' that she had. She had very few, if any, enemies. I mean, I'm sure she had to cross swords with people over how much to fund this project, and there were people who were against it, but she had a way to disarm. Her nature would disarm anyone who thought they were going to come into conflict with my mom. I think they'd come away soon thereafter a big fan of Mom and her friend, so it was an amazing thing. So, I'm sorry, I'll come back. She may have been told about the job and applied. I'm sure she had to, but I guess they sought her out. One of the articles that I read recently about the project here, Tom Moore, who I've mentioned to you, after Mom passed away, there was an article in the Standard Examiner about her passing, and it quoted Tom Moore as saying that Mom was “the right person at the right place at the right time." And he just hit the nail on the head of her nature, and how she went about things, and her commitment, and her drive and, you know, being freed up from the Bicentennial Commission: all those things came together to be where she was the perfect person to lead the project here. She was well-connected with the Ogden leaders, and they thought a lot of her. And then, it wasn't just the elected leaders in town either. It was the cultural leaders in town, right? I mean, the Browning family would be a good example. They're a good one to pick, obviously, because of their historical importance and their heritage here, they're important in Ogden, and great contributors to the city of Ogden in efforts and in money. But anyways, she knew them and they knew her. So I kind of think it was an evolution from the Junior League. She evolved 14 of 47 into the Bicentennial Commission, and that evolved into the job here at the station, all kind of a naturally-connected set of interests. AK: So I want to hear a little more about when she first became the executive director. You mentioned that there were a lot of sections of the station that were in complete disarray. Did she have a team that helped her with cleaning up and everything? DG: Yeah, yeah. Mom would be the first person to credit many, many people for what went on here. And she would be horrified if I, because of my pride in what she achieved here, she'd be horrified if we didn't acknowledge that there was a large cast of characters here that both mentored her and just outright helped her and were down on hands and knees, scraping floors. And this list of people is an interesting list, I think, because mom was a very egalitarian person. She just treated everybody exactly the same. She knew the governor, Cal Rampton, and his wife well, but she would act no different with him and the people that were in here breaking down walls and then restoring this place and living in the dust and the muck and rodents and things like that. So she treated everyone the same. And there was a large cast of characters that came from this: the important social, cultural people here in Ogden, down to the laborers that were doing the work here to restore the building. As a matter of fact, she was often very involved in the renovation itself. She'd come home all dirty, and she would enlist our family sometimes to do a few things. My dad and my brothers would get hauled down here for various things. Like one example I know: in the early days, Mom had to deal with---we would call them homeless people now, but I 15 of 47 think we would call them transients then. But there was people taking shelter in these buildings back then, and somebody had started a warming fire in between the buildings out here, kind of close to the tracks, and she had to deal with that often. There was people sleeping on these wooden benches, the railroad lobby benches, and she'd have to deal with that. But she was so nice and she wouldn't confront them in a confrontational way. But I suspect she befriended them, too, as she would tell them, "You can't stay here," right? So there was all these interesting things. As the Station renovation went along, Ogden City obviously put alarm systems into the building to protect their work and the art that was coming in here in the galleries. And I do remember many times... So I was off to college by then, and my older brother, but we'd be home in the summers, and frequently, Mom would get a call in the middle of the night at home when the Station’s alarms went off, and she and my dad, or she and my little brother, who was not in college yet would troop down here in the middle of the night, and they would lead the police through the building with flashlights to try to see if someone had intruded into the place. And I asked my little brother, yesterday, it's like, "This is the folklore, that Mom led the police through. Why weren't they out in front with guns drawn or whatever it took to meet this threat?" My brother said, "She was just incredible." She had all the keys, and she knew the building and the police didn't. So she would. He said, "It's absolutely true. It's not folklore that she would come down here and lead the police through the building looking for the intruder and the alarm trip, and why." So Dad and my brother would come down here, 16 of 47 because they didn't want her to come alone, but this would happen quite a lot. She was totally dedicated to the project and to the building and to Ogden City. AK: Tell me about the story of her recruiting Ed Laning to paint the murals. DG: I am sorry. That, I'm going to have a total blank on. I tried to get prepared for that question because you sent it to me and I don't know how that happened. I ran into some papers that Edward Laning was from New York and was commissioned for, I think $100,000 is what I read. Don't quote me on that. It's in one of the articles I read to try to prepare for today. And he painted the murals in New York and then he came out to install them. But I don't know. I don't remember Mom... I remember her showing them to us and being proud of them, but I don't remember her talking about how they were commissioned and who this man was. I'm sorry. AK: No, that's all right. I was just interested because I know that he was the same one who did the paintings out on Ellis Island. DG: Oh, I didn't know that, so I didn't stumble on to that. And you'd mentioned that to me when we had our Zoom call, I think, but it went over my head. One thing that is interesting: I don't know if you know that in the lobby, those big heavy wooden beams up in the highest parts of the ceiling there, they look... All that wood grain is paint; hand-painted on to make it look like wood. It is wood, but it doesn't have the grain. The grain that you see there is painted on. Did you know that? AK: I actually did. That's fascinating. DG: And I'm sure that wasn't done by Edward Laning, but anyways, I'm sorry. I don't know much about the murals. 17 of 47 AK: No, that's all right. Not a problem. One of the Standard Examiner articles that I read said Thomas Moore had said that Teddy knew all about restoration. Where did she gain that knowledge from? DG: Yeah, it's funny. She eventually, in 1980, got a master's degree from Utah State in history, but I don't think she learned about renovation at college. I think it was just the evolution and accumulation of knowledge over the years from Junior League and the Bicentennial Commission there. Plus, as I told you earlier, she had no fear to jump into anything, even if she didn't know anything about it. I don't know where that confidence came from, but this whole thing about finishing the basement and doing fiberglass projects without knowing anything about it, and the candles, she was the same way here. But I'm sure that accumulation of knowledge over the years with the Junior League historical work and the Bicentennial was what gave her the basis to be able to proceed. Then just her nature, right? Just jumping into anything without fear. I'm pretty sure she didn't have any formal training in renovations. Who knows what classes she took at Utah State, but I don't think so. AK: So I want to know a little bit more about your memories of coming down here and either watching her or helping out with any of the restoration. Do you have memories of that? DG: Yeah some, and then some from my brothers that I received from them lately. Of course, there's the leading the police story that I told you. My older brother Steve was recruited as a volunteer guide for the museums. He would have been college age, and my dad was also recruited as a guide for the museums. I'm sure 18 of 47 they enjoyed that. They weren't pushed into it by Mom. Most often, when you came to see Mom here at the Station, she had a big old desk in one of the rooms upstairs, and it was just piled high with papers and binders. She kept a really messy desk because she had a lot going on. As Tom, or somebody, said, she's amazing at multitasking. That was her. Her desk showed it. It was a mess. So when you came into her office, it was busy. Busy both physically and activity-wise. There are so many things she was involved in, like the handcart races here on the tracks. There was a competition that went on for years in Ogden with handcart racing, as an example. But, you know, the projects just never ended here, right? They had to do the front of the building with the water feature, the fountain that wasn't there originally. They took this building to my right here, which is now the theater; that was used for something else in the railroad days. There's a building to the south of the Station that's called the laundry annex, I believe. She was working on what to turn that into. The art gallery upstairs: that was a real physical mess up there. My brother said that when they tore into that, that was rat-infested. And I said, "Was this folklore or is this real?" And he said, "No," he saw it. It was terrible. And it's a beautiful art gallery now, upstairs; there's two art galleries here, and they're beautiful. But a lot of my memories here are from events, I guess you could call them galas, you know, dinners like the Christmas Tree Express, where Christmas trees were auctioned off for charity. So there was a lot of activity here for festivities. There was festivals, like the model railroaders have a festival here, 19 of 47 and they set up all their models. So just a lot of events here. She was constantly here because there were so many events here. It was a labor of love for her, and she would drag us into some things, but it wasn't abuse by any means. This became quite a place for wedding receptions after it was renovated, and there's several rooms. I don't remember the names of where the receptions were, but sometimes the wedding receptions got out of hand and they would bring a swarm of police down here. My mom had a... My brother called him a foreman, and I don't know if that was his official title, and we don't know his last name, but his name was Dennis, and he had been hired by Mom. He'd come through the Job Corps, and the Job Corps is a place where people that have had a rough youth go to learn skills and carry on with a productive life, right? So this guy was a huge man and his name was Dennis, and he became Mom's right hand, right arm down here. And it's an example of her egalitarianism, right? He came from a troubled background, and yet he became one of the most trusted, most valued employees down here. And I know she considered him a dear friend as well. He was in charge of security here, even though Mom would get these middle-of-the-night calls. But Dennis was the guy that would get called in for a party that was getting out of hand, and he had the experience and physical intimidation factor to handle it, along with the police. So that was kind of a recollection. That Dennis was a great guy. You know, for me and my older brother, at least, we were just away to college when a lot of the physical work was going on, but as I said before, Mom would jump right in with all hands and feet to do these physical restorations and 20 of 47 make decisions about what it was going to look like. She was just an amazing, amazing person. AK: I have a question with that: So when you're mentioning how she took this building over here – which actually, from what I understand, was a post office, which was interesting. And then also, like the laundry building and everything, was she the one who was in charge of building the connecting breezeways between the buildings and such? DG: I think so, yeah. I mean, she didn't do it with her hands, right? But the design of the connection, the breezeways and everything, she was in charge of all that. I know she was hiring architects, but she had all the input that she would desire in her humble way of approach. And I'm sure she wasn't demanding, but she would hire professionals to design and do, and she was involved in all of the layout of the grounds, where the locomotives would sit. I remember this building here that was the post office. Then when they decided to renovate it and make it a theater, it had this hardwood and green parquet floor that's still there, and there was talk of tearing it up and putting in a modern floor. And she was just adamant that she wanted that history to stay there, and it's still there. It's not perfectly flat, but it's cool, and that's an example of the kind of stuff she would try to save. She was into historic preservation. She made sure things were preserved. AK: And it sounds like she did a lot of research to know that that floor was significant and things like that. DG: Yeah. AK: You said that she was in charge of putting the fountain out front as well? 21 of 47 DG: Well, I'm sure, again, that she oversaw the renovation of the whole front courtyard, right? And the fact that it's cobblestone to be age-related, and the water fountain. AK: What was out there before, do you know? DG: Well, in, I think the ‘50s or ‘60s, it was the driveway that came into the railroad station, right through the center there. 25th Street, if you'd gone through the light, coming west, you would just drive into the Station that way. It was the entrance. So now it's closed off and made more to be like a cultural community center should be: a place to gather outside for festivals and activities. AK: Why did she want to make this into a community center as well as a museum? DG: Yeah, I hope I can articulate why, and I've been thinking about that since you asked on the phone. It seems to me that when we all travel to a city that we feel has a lot going on and would be a good place to live and is an attractive place to visit, there's cultural and community centers there. And I think about a city that is the opposite of that, chose not to invest in cultural and community and heritage centers, when you go there, you're not that interested to stay or to visit or come back or live. And so I think the importance of a place like this is to preserve our heritage and to provide a place for the community to meet for wedding receptions and festivals and to display art and museums and our history. And it attracts visitors, and I think it attracts people to live here. And when I think about the opposite places that chose not to preserve or invest in a place like this, it's basically short-sighted, because it hurts to find the funds for a community to come up with the money to preserve a place like this, sort of create 22 of 47 a place like this, but a place that doesn't have a place for community to gather and hold a festival there, they're cheated out of their heritage. And I think when we travel to places that have and don't have, it's a sense that you have of whether or not that destination is as attractive. When you think of going to a city in Europe that has a lot of landmarks that we're familiar with and you want to go see them, some government official decided to bite the bullet and spend government funds to create a fountain or art gallery or a symphony hall. And although it was painful, and I'm sure there was resistance to that at some point, it proves, looking back, that they were far-sighted, because these places are how we know those towns and it's their landmarks, right? And I think the Station is, again, one of Ogden's landmarks as the anchor to the whole 25th Street restoration. I mean, 25th Street now is hustling and bustling and has a lot of restaurants and shops, and Union Station is the anchor for that development and restoration of what used to be called 'two-bit street'. So I think in the way that I'm thinking of, European cities have their calling cards, their cultural centers, their features that we travel to go see and we're attracted to. Ogden's is the Station here, the end of 25th Street and all the restoration that was related to it. I know Mom saw and was very interested in not just this side of Wall Avenue, but what was going on on the east side of Wall Avenue. She was very interested in this becoming a historic district and that it not just be contained to the train station. AK: Did she travel around to other places to learn about how best to set up Union Station as a community center? 23 of 47 DG: She did travel to other museums and community centers and restorations to learn, and I can't remember any specific trips, but I know she went to Denver, and I know she went to see the museums in Cody, and I believe she might have gone back to Omaha because Omaha was the seat of the Union Pacific. AK: Okay. So she kind of made a study of some of those stations to help in her restoration efforts? DG: That's right. Yeah. I think she was pretty well acquainted with other union stations and drew a lot of ideas and inspiration from them. AK: So I want to hear a little more about some of these community activities that you named earlier, such as the handcart racing on the tracks. What was that? Tell me about that. DG: I don't know what festival it was part of - and it may have just been its own - but yeah, on these tracks, they would organize handcart races as part of a celebration, and it was well-attended. Other activities, again, was the model railroaders taking over the building and setting up all their hobbies. There was a lot of---I don't use this word often---gala dinners here to fundraise for various charities like the Christmas tree auction. The theater was used for plays and concerts. It was a happening place. I think it still is, but I don't know because I live in Brigham City now. But I'm glad to see the Ogden High School students down here today getting to go through the museums and the Station and learn about history. That's a real positive sign to me, that things are still vibrant and alive and they're teaching youth something about art and heritage. 24 of 47 AK: Yeah, I know it's – Today, it's not officially open to the public, but when it is, Wednesday through Saturday, it's always so busy down here. DG: Really? See, I didn't know that, and I'm really happy and proud that it's so. I mean, again, going back, like when you think about why it was important for Mom for this place to exist, I think about the antithesis of this place and existence, which would have... And there were people calling for this to be torn down, according to Murray Moler of the Standard-Examiner. And if it had been, well, maybe housing would be here, but it would leave a hole in the community where we get our soul. The spirit and soul of the community happens through places like this. And like I said, I think when you go to a place that maybe chose not to invest, maybe in another world would have bulldozed this town and put housing here you can sense that there's something missing there. And to see the high school students here today taking part in all this is very, very encouraging. This is what it was for, right? To teach people what Ogden's heritage is about, and that there's a place for them to gather for festivals and wedding receptions or whatever else. AK: Speaking of people wanting to bulldoze the place back in the day, was that part of the reason why your mom put it on the National Historic Register? DG: That's a good question. I don't know what her answer to that would be, but there are protections that come with that designation. And I know some of the resistance she would run into on some of her projects were people that knew that there were some restrictions that would come to a site because of that designation. And so, again, she would run into some resistance or people with 25 of 47 another view. And I'm sure often it was about money, right? That they didn't want to invest in something like this. But again, I think she disarmed them, probably, with her personality and her nature and her way about her. I'm not sure she would convince them to change their minds, but I think they left friends after a discussion about that, probably. So I don't know that she was using it as... I don't want to say a weapon, but I don't know if she was using it as a shield to protect a place. I kind of doubt it. I think it was more just her nature to think people would see it like she did, that this was valuable and that it would be enjoyed for all posterity. And it was important to have a community soul that we could look back towards in our heritage. I doubt that she ever thought, you know, "If I get this designation, that's going to keep people from doing bad things to this place." I think she probably looked at it from the optimistic, positive side. AK: Yeah, she sounds like an optimist. DG: She was. AK: I was also curious about the tracks. I've heard once that there were 13 tracks here at one time. Were they all there when she started the restoration? DG: You know, until you mentioned it, I... yeah, it wasn't that long ago that what we see as grass out there, you know, dried grass, that was tracks all the way out. We, as a family, traveled back to Michigan one of the summers on a train, maybe twice, and I remember coming here. So that would have been in the late ‘60s, and this was a hustle-and-bustle and train station then. I mean, there were all these wooden carts with big wheels where the baggage handlers would put your 26 of 47 luggage. And it was, as a young person, it was, you know, all your senses were wide open. The trains are making a lot of noise. There was ways to get to the far tracks. I don't remember, it must have been underground, underneath the other tracks, I think. So you would see where your train was going. I mean, I was quite young, but once you figured out which train you were supposed to be on, you would get across a whole bunch of tracks here to the west of the building, and then it was all senses open, right? They're loading your luggage and getting on this big, loud thing. And we enjoyed those trips across the country on the train a lot. I mean, it was a great way to travel, even as I was probably eight or nine years old when we did that. But I could see it was a great way to travel. You could actually sleep, unlike air travel now. AK: That's so cool that you remember this place as a train station. I didn't know that. DG: It was hustlin' and bustlin', and it was a lot of trains coming and going and people loading on and off trains. And I guess it was even more so during World War Two. The movement of all the military personnel and equipment. Yeah, I'm sure it was even busier then, from what I've read. It was cool. It'd be fun to be able to have a time machine and travel back on a train. It's not like it is now. It was, yeah. They were so big and so loud and so much going on. AK: I wish I could have seen it. I think that would have been amazing. DG: Yeah, and, you know, there was the dining car and then there was the dome liners where you could sit up in a higher level and it was all surrounded by glass. As you travel through Wyoming and Nebraska, you sit there and see the countryside. It was way cool, yeah. I wish there was something like it now, but 27 of 47 train travel, I think right now, is not that inexpensive compared to airports. We all go by air because you're going to be there in two hours, right? But if you had the time and if it was less expensive, I think we'd all travel by train. It was just more pleasurable. AK: And this is not really to do with the interview, but I wonder if that's one reason why there's been a lot of movies recently, like Murder on the Orient Express, you know, all these train-themed shows that have been coming out, it's kind of interesting. DG: Yeah. AK: It just seems magical, you know? DG: It does. And I've had this stray thought, too: you know, lately, all of our US top officials that have visited Ukraine, they're having to go in on a train from Poland – secretly, right? They don't announce it, but they show pictures of, like, Secretary of State Blinken, and he's at a big table in a train car, you know, doing his work, and it's just a different way to travel. It's totally different than being on an airplane. More comfortable. AK: Yeah, airplanes, they're not that comfortable anymore. DG: Yeah, 'fraid not, unless you're in the front of the plane. AK: Yes. So true. So was Teddy in charge of hiring the museum staff? DG: Oh, yeah. But again, so much of the museums were run and staffed by volunteers. But she was in charge of all of the volunteers, and they just loved her and she loved them. Oh, my gosh. She knew them all by name. But it was almost exclusively, I believe the museums were staffed by volunteers. And, you know, 28 of 47 the railroad community, I'm not a part of it, but I noticed just how tight they are. When they retire, they stay in there. They're lifers, right? They stay in for life. And I don't think there was any shortage of retired railroad employees who would volunteer here and loved to tell the stories of the railroads and even the Browning Arms. AK: Do you know an estimate of how many volunteers? DG: Oh, my goodness, no. I'd have to guess, and it would be a wild guess that would probably be wrong. You asked me, when we talked previously, about important people here, and in preparing a little bit for today, I came across a name you really should know. And I don't know where he is right now or if he's alive. His name is Ivan Rudd and he was the president of the Union Station Development Corporation at one time. And you triggered that memory because, I don't know if he started as a volunteer here and grew into this, but he became the president of the Union Station Development Corporation, and he was an a very important person for the development and restoration, renovation of the Station and he's a perfect example of the, the literal army of people that really made this place come to pass. And if I didn't stress that strongly enough, Mom would scold me if she was here. It's just was never about her because of her nature and her demeanor. She was the opposite of a narcissist. She didn't really want to draw a lot of attention to herself, and she would want to draw a lot of attention to the people that made this happen, and especially the volunteers, because they had a special place for her and vice versa. She would take good care of them. But I know it took an army of volunteers to staff the museums. 29 of 47 AK: You said it was Ivan Rudd? DG: Ivan Rudd. Yeah. It should not be hard to find some history on his tenure as the president of the Union Station Development Corporation. AK: Was that a city entity? DG: Well, I don't know, Alyssa. What I think happened is, you know, the city owned a lot of this entity. The land and building were separate, and even that, to this day, is still being juggled, right? My sense is that Ogden City decided to form a separate corporation for this renovation; that is the Union Station Development Corporation. I suspect they were advised by legal attorneys that this needs to be a separate business entity. And I think that's what that is, but I'm sticking my neck out further than I should go. But I know Mom worked for the city. Well, you know, I don't know that. She may have answered to the Union Station Development Corporation, and they had a board of directors, and Mom answered to them. So actually, I guess I don't know the legalities of the structure of how they set up this corporation versus the community called Ogden. I guess I'm not sure, but I'm sure they thought to separate that out and they did. I have mentioned to you Tom Moore and Carol and Rebecca, they were examples of people that I think were on the board of directors early on, and they were providing advice to the executive director – Mom. But they were also great friends. AK: Do you know what their specific jobs were? Were they historians, or volunteers, or? DG: Well, no, I'm going to stick my neck out a little bit. Um, Carolyn Nebeker is a good example. She has, in her family tree, Brownings, so her family were community 30 of 47 leaders here involved in all kinds of things to develop Ogden, and I'm sure her ancestors were doing the same, right? And a lot of this, she's a good example of someone who came down through the Browning family tree and was very active in the community, helping to build the community, like funding things at Weber State, for instance. So Carolyn, her role would be a community leader and she would just volunteer into all kinds of things around the city here. And her sister---oh, my gosh. I've forgotten her name. Also, obviously, a descendant of the Brownings. Carolyn is an example – and many of her relatives – of people that descended from the Brownings or the Eccles, who were just constantly involved in community projects to make Ogden a better place. And they would join boards of directors like the Union Station Board to help make that so. So I don't think their qualifications, their certifications, came from any prior jobs in renovation or historical jobs. They're community leaders, and their ancestors were community leaders who helped build Ogden, and they were carrying on that legacy, and they still do. AK: Are there any other important community leaders or people that would be important to know? DG: Oh, my goodness. Lucia Browning is a name. She was very involved here. She was the honorary chairman of the Browning Firearms Museum, and she was another example of a community leader. I wish I could remember Carolyn Nebeker's sister's name. I saw her obituary yesterday as I was on the internet. Obviously Carolyn would know, and I'm embarrassed that I can't think of her. Carolyn and her sister, I think their maiden name was Rich, they're part of this 31 of 47 Browning family tree. And it's not all from John M. Browning, the gun inventor. John M. Browning's brother was Matthew Browning, and he was kind of the businessman of the Browning Arms Company back in the 18... I guess ‘60s, ' 70s, and' 80s. Anyways, John M. Browning had a brother who was very involved in the business, and his name was Matthew Browning, and I have a friend that is a Rich and their family tree leads back up to Matthew Browning, I believe. So I hope I've answered your question. A lot of the people on the board – and Thomas Moore I think is another example – they were just community leaders that felt a big civic responsibility to contribute. AK: That's perfect. And I think that's really honorable to do that. DG: It is, and that's the kind of people that made this happen, that Mom was hanging with. Yeah, they just had a real civic spirit and pride and desire to preserve the heritage here and promote it. I wish I could think of other important names. You know, I think in those Junior League days, Mom became close with a person in Salt Lake that I think she learned a lot from. And her name is Stephanie Churchill and they were great friends. And Stephanie – I probably shouldn't call her by her first name, but I will – she worked for the Utah Heritage Foundation. She's an example who Mom was probably learning from in all these days about what it took to renovate, and what are the restrictions on being able to renovate, because Stephanie was in a professional paid position. But they were great social friends, Mom and Stephanie, and I'm sure Mom went to school by knowing Stephanie in those Junior League days. So there's a name drop. And oh, I'm sure there's so many important people that I'm leaving out that should or would 32 of 47 be offended. But, you know, the Ogden leaders of the time; the mayor was Stephen Dirks at the time when Ogden released some funds to this, and I'm sure he had a ton of resistance that he had to overcome. AK: I can't even imagine. Do you have his contact information, just out of curiosity? DG: I do not. I assume he's alive. He was a fairly young mayor in the ‘70s. I assume he's alive and shouldn't be hard to find. AK: I think he is. I've been trying to track him down. I'm pretty sure he's alive from different newspaper articles I've read. DG: Yeah, you'll find him in a lot of newspaper articles, and it will explain, I think, some of those articles about all the maneuverings, and people on both sides of trying to take this project on. Just like lately, things were on the internet about Ogden City having to buy---do you know what Ogden City had to buy recently? AK: From what I understand, I think that the Union Pacific, who originally owned the building, donated the building to Ogden City. So Ogden City owned the building but didn't own the land under the building. DG: The land. AK: I think Ogden City recently purchased the land, because they're bringing in a city developer to kind of help develop the land surrounding the Union Station and to build another building for a museum. DG: Yeah. AK: Because, as you probably know from your mom, there's not a lot of places to adequately store the objects and manuscripts not on display. And the building is 33 of 47 historic, right? So it's hot and muggy, you know. So they're wanting to do a separate building for the museum, but keep this building as its own historic thing. DG: You're restoring my memory of the recent news, but it was like that back then too, you know. You'd see in the news, if you just looked online on the news, that there was a battle going on for whether or not to buy this land and make further investments, and what to do to enlarge this cultural center and this community center. It was like that back in the ‘70s, only probably even a bigger fire, right? Because it was a big investment for Ogden City to take this on. And I'm sure there were people that thought it was a wreck, and just oughta be, the wrecking ball ought to swing on it. But I do remember how controversial it was. And then again, I'm sorry to beat the drum – somehow there's an old adage to “confront without being confrontational and to contend without being contentious and to disagree without being disagreeable.” I mean, Mom would be the prototype as an example of that adage. Even though there was a lot of disagreement over how to invest money here to save this place, I don't think she was the center of this being a disagreeable person. She was just friends with everybody, basically, and to have the support of the community leaders, some of which I've named, that was key; To know that the de facto leaders of the community were behind this, it couldn't have been done without their support. AK: And I think that's such a gift that she was able to be so unifying like that. DG: Right. Yeah, she was able to... you know, credit goes to the community leaders, but she was, I think, kind of the hub of the little spokes of the wheel to bring those community leaders together, through her acquaintances and associations to 34 of 47 gang up on the community and say, "We've got to support this and make it happen." And together, they raised a lot of money through private donations. It wasn't all through grants from bicentennial commissions and other places. A lot of it was these community leaders were out beating the bushes for private donations, big ones. AK: That's amazing. You were probably away at college for most of this, but did the Ogden community in general seem like they really cared about preserving Union Station? DG: Hmm. I suppose my view of that would be so biased I couldn't answer it fairly. We did have a good family friend that was an example of someone on the other side like, "We don't need, this is how we should spend government money. This is the people's money. This is ridiculous." So I did see at least one person who had opposing views, and they were rational, but I didn't agree with them. And then my view's so biased from being Mom's son that we needed places like this. But you know what I said earlier about communities and having a place like this and needing a place like this and having a heart and soul to a community and they're heartless and soulless if there's nothing like this. It doesn't have to be a building like this. It could be a provincial hall, right? It could be a symphony hall or… but cities that don't have a place like this... Well, I'm repeating myself now. But a ton of credit has to go to the volunteers who staffed this place and the laborers who tore down what was pretty much a wreck, you know, the facade of old walls and things, to get down to the brick and parquet floors and clean it up. And then the community leaders who had the vision to draw on each other and go out and 35 of 47 raise funds to make it happen. It took a village, I guess you would say, to make it come together. AK: And it sounds like your dad was really supportive. DG: He was, and he's quite involved. He was a volunteer tour guide. He just loved the Browning Arms Museum. So do I. I'm a mechanical engineer, and I don't know if you know – the American Society of Mechanical Engineers designated the Browning Arms Museum a heritage, mechanical engineering heritage site. And I can hardly believe what John Browning invented, given his education and background. I mean, he was clearly just a natural genius at what he did, and I'm in total awe of him. So getting back to my dad, we like to hunt with shotguns and stuff, so dad was totally into the Browning Arms, and loved to lead people through there and tell the story of John Browning. And he was supportive. I mean, Mom was so into this place and so committed that at times, it could be intrusive into our lives. But overall, looking back, it was not intrusive, you know; it was a labor of love for her and we were supporting her. I know where I was going earlier. So we had a family friend who was against the idea of the renovation of a place like this and using government money to do it. And I think I wouldn't have known what to think about it when I was college-age and hearing him put forth these views. But now, at my age, I look back and think just how important it is to have places like this. AK: I'm curious to learn a little more about your dad, just because I feel like it wasn't as common for the wife to be so involved with all these kinds of things and so I think it's really cool that he was so supportive. Was he someone who was really 36 of 47 into history as well? Did he get pretty involved in the preservation aspect of this, or was he more supporting your mom? DG: He was more supporting Mom. He wasn't a history buff at all like Mom, but he was all about supporting Mom. And once this place started to take shape, I think he jumped in, like as the volunteer guide and just loved it. So it was all about supporting Mom. Yeah, he was busy with his career and supporting the family, but yeah, Mom was kind of women's liberation before it even happened, you know. And she would hate for me to probably even say that. It wasn't about liberation for her, or a career development, it was just interests she had, and she was a doer. She just wanted to do, and I don't think she ever... She was ahead of her time, as being a professional career woman with a family. I don't think she ever saw anything about being a career woman or liberation. She just had things she wanted to achieve. AK: I love that. You mentioned that she got several awards for her work through Union Station. Would you tell me about that? DG: I wish I had a complete list. It's hard to think of them all because she'd probably wanna stash them away at home and not even display them. The last one I remember well, though, was in 2011, and she actually had Alzheimer's, and we were fairly well into the Alzheimer's when she was given in the lobby at a dinner, this Mayor's Award for Achievement in the Arts. And it was hard for her to go up and say a few words afterwards, I know, because she left the job in '93, so it's that many years later. But that was an important award for her to be recognized, you know, nearly 20 years after she left here. I think that showed the staying 37 of 47 power of the contribution she made here.You know, it wouldn't be unusual for her to receive an award immediately after she left, like the plaque I brought in where the city council honored her, which was very important. But to be awarded the Mayor's Award 20 years later, I think, demonstrated just how the community still remembered her contribution here and how important she was to the city. AK: And you said that she left the museum in 1993? DG: But then she stayed on as a volunteer. She stayed on as a volunteer and on the board of directors for a while, for quite some time, she stayed involved here. She didn't care if she got paid for this, she just wanted to be involved down here. She loved it. AK: So why did she leave, just out of curiosity? DG: You know, I don't know. I know it was written in an article I read; it said she wanted to travel with her husband and spend more time with her family, and I think that's literally true, in this case. My brother was living in Austria by then, and I think my nephews were born by then, and I think they wanted to go see them. My mom and dad developed quite a sense of adventure for travel when they lived in Germany, so they saw all of Europe when they lived in Germany for the Air Force. And this does make sense actually, that she retired here, because they were very early visitors to China when China opened up to tourism. They were very adventuresome-seeking. When they went on tour in Russia, not long after it was okay to go there, and they took a river cruise boat down, you know, before it was all really developed into a big... Either of those trips were not very well-developed for 38 of 47 tourists yet, so they just had this high desire to seek adventurous trips. So I think it's probably true, you know. These days when someone leaves a job and says they want to spend more time with their family, it's generally code words for, they got crossways with somebody and had to leave, right? I don't think she got crossways with anyone in my recollection in '93, but I do think they wanted to take off on these adventurous travels to China and Russia and go to Austria a lot to see my nephews. So yeah, I don't think there was any stress that caused her to want to leave. And I think that's probably evidenced by the fact that she stayed on the board and volunteered here a lot. She and Dad both hung a lot of art shows in these galleries long after Mom left her paid position. Yeah, they were quite involved in art shows that were put on here in the two galleries. AK: How long was she a volunteer? DG: Oh, boy. I don't know, Alyssa. She died in 2016 and Alzheimer's was working on her for years, and they built a place on the shores of Bear Lake in 2000, so they liked to spend a lot of time there, on the Idaho side. You know Bear Lake, I'm sure. Um... I don't know. I could guess, but I don't know. I would guess until the Alzheimer's disease started working on her, and that'd probably'd been like, '06, '07. I mean, she was showing signs of that for 10 years before it took her. AK: And you said that your dad was also a volunteer at the same time she worked at the museum? DG: Mm-hmm. Yeah, he volunteered here while she was the executive director, but then after she retired, they got quite involved in the art shows. 39 of 47 AK: Okay, so he was also an official volunteer while she was a volunteer? Okay. DG: Yeah. Yeah, he loved it, too. Um, yeah. Gosh, we've kind of left out one thing that was really important: one of Mom's efforts that I know she dedicated a lot of time and effort to was to bring a nice restaurant into the Union Station. And the first restaurant in was Union Grill, who's now moved on to another building in Ogden, but that was a really important development for the Station. It was a very popular restaurant and still is, in a different location, but it helped increase the activity levels down here. And I know that was one of Mom's projects, like the fountain and this building and that, but getting a real attractive restaurant in here was important. AK: Do you know anything about that restaurant? Like, was it a restaurant before it came here, or…? DG: No, I don't know the total history, but I was working with a lady at a company here in Utah, Ogden area. The company was Iomega, and her name was Kim Bouchard, and she worked in Accounting. And I knew her a little bit, and she said she was going to leave the company, and I said, "What are you going to do?" And she’s like, "Well, my husband and I are going to open a restaurant." I think, "Oh my gosh,” you know, “What? You're going to roll the dice like, you know, you're an accountant who's going to go start a restaurant?" And I just thought that was wild. Well, turns out that Kim's family had a restaurant business history. It was a family restaurant. I think it was called Sandy's Fine Foods. Her mom was Sandy. I believe all this is true, and so Kim knew, she wasn't stepping into the restaurant 40 of 47 business cold-turkey. And her husband, his name is... Oh, my gosh, I just had it. Hmm. Well, last name is Bouchard, and they still own Union Grill, and they opened up Roosters on 25th Street and the Brewer Brewery and the Roosters Brewery out here on the west end of town. So they are quite the restaurateurs, and I didn't know that; I just thought this was a wild idea. So Kim and Mr. Bouchard had a lot of interactions with Mom as they decided to open up there. I think it was their first restaurant as a couple in the Station, and I may be mistaken there, but I don't think so. The Bouchards opened Union Grill, and then they went on to become quite the local restaurateurs, right? I mean, they're shipping Rooster's Beer far and wide, right? I mean, they're a big deal. So it was funny that I thought this was crazy and it wasn't crazy at all. And it turns out, here she was, Kim going off to start a restaurant in this building. AK: So is it Kim Bouchard's parents who did the Union Grill, or Kim herself? DG: No, it was Kim and her husband, but I can't think of his first name, which is crazy. They started the Union Grill. Kim's mom, I believe, is Sandy of Sandy's Fine Food. It was an established restaurant in Ogden for many years. I don't think it’s there anymore. And I believe Mom was tight with Sandy somehow. Mom was tight with almost everybody in Ogden, and a lot of it came from Junior League. I don't know if Sandy was in Junior League, but I think she was, because Kim was in Junior League with my wife – I just put all that together. Yeah, the Junior League is where a lot of movers and shakers and people who wanted to get things done met each other, is my history with Junior League. Yeah, I'm sure now that Mom was in Junior League with Sandy, knew Sandy, and then came to know 41 of 47 Kim and her husband through the Union Grill. And then Kim and my wife were in Junior League together. AK: So tell me a little more about getting the Union Grill in here. You said that that was a pretty important story. Do you know anything about the evolution of that? DG: No. I just know it was a lot of work for Mom to try to attract somebody like the Bouchards. So I don't know all of the inner workings and probably negotiations of how that happened, I just know it was very... Mom knew it was important to increase the vitality of this place, to get a really going restaurant in here, and the Union Grill was that place. The Bouchards did a great job of starting the restaurant. It was very popular, and I'm not sure whether or not here now and it doesn't matter. I don't want to criticize them by any means, but they're still very popular and very successful up here, east of us now. And everything they've started has just been a wonderful success. But I think Mom just had the vision that, you know, we've got to get a really good restaurant in here. And it was a lot of work as she sent out feelers to try to get someone to come. AK: And from what I understand, where the Union Grill was located is also where the original Union Station Canteen was during World War Two, and then a later restaurant. Is that right? DG: Oh. I don't know. And, you know, the restaurants that have come after Union Grill have been nice to us. We've still come here to eat once in a while, and part of that's just history for my wife and I. But yeah, I know every restaurant that's been in here has been appreciated. But it was cool to get Union Grill, and it was very 42 of 47 popular. You were probably three [laughing]. I don't even know if you were that old. I'm not going to do the math. AK: Do you know what year it was? DG: Oh, Alyssa, I don't. It was pretty far along in the Station's renovation. Like, if Mom was here from '77 to '93. Well, I started at Iomega in '83, so it had to be after '83, and I would have got to know Kim, and she said she was leaving... I would say in that '86 timeframe, probably? Yeah. And I don't know Kim now, and I haven't seen her for years, but that's who she was. And she and her husband – I don't know her husband's restaurant background, so obviously he knew what he was doing. He was a chef, I believe, and a restaurateur, so he knew what he was doing. Kim knew what he was doing, and somehow they and Mom were able to get them to move in here and start this successful restaurant. AK: Well, do you have any other stories, or anything you think would be important to cover? DG: Let me do a quick look here. AK: I'm going to see what else I have written down as well. DG: I'm pretty much out of anecdotes, Alyssa. I can't think of other things. I'm sure a lack of anecdotes comes, on my part, from being away at college during a lot of this time. But Mom and I graduated from Utah State – She got her master's, and I got my bachelor's at Utah State the same year, so we had a dual graduation. That was kind of fun. And by then, obviously, I'm 22 and she's older than all these college kids, but that's when she got her master's. And the thesis was the 43 of 47 development plan for the renovation of Ogden's Union Station. Yeah. She was able to take all of her work here and formalize it into her thesis. AK: That's cool. That's a fun story, too. DG: Yeah. She's an amazing person. Just super well-liked, super well-respected, super talented, super creative. Yeah, she was something. AK: Well, I feel like you've answered every question I have. So unless you have anything else to share, I have just one more question for you. DG: Okay. AK: So I just wanted to end with asking this question that I've been asking all the interviewees: what can the community do to help keep Union Station relevant for future generations? DG: Well, obviously, the community needs to keep investing in this place to maintain it. And as we've talked, Ogden City will grow it. So continued investment is important, but it's not just money, right? It's to keep having gathering events here that exposes younger people to the place and gets them hooked into it. So, again, it's so nice to see the high school students from Ogden High here today to expose them. And I'm sure some percentage of them is gonna get interested in and see the importance of a community center, right? A place to gather, a place to celebrate, a place to hold events. I'm sure a good percentage of them are thinking, or they will as they mature, like, "Gosh, it's important to have a place like this that we just took for granted." Because places like this, you can't take for granted, right? They don't exist unless somebody decides to invest their time, money and blood and sweat and tears into making them exist. And I think there'll 44 of 47 always be people that are on the other side of the argument, but it's important for the community to continue to invest in this place and teach the youth through an involvement that this kind of place is important. It gives Ogden City heart and soul, and I still think it's clear to me to understand the importance of this place. When you think about the parallel universe where it doesn't exist, you know, and there's a big gap and a hole in the community if there's not a place like this. And places that are worth living have places like this. Have you ever been to Montpelier, Idaho, north of Bear Lake? AK: It sounds so familiar, I think I may have. DG: It's a fairly small town and it has this amazingly nice museum there that's the Museum of the California and Oregon Trail Museum, something to that effect. And it's a small town north of Bear Lake, pretty isolated from any population centers, and yet they've got this gangbuster museum there. And they draw a lot of tourists that are passing through that area, and it seems to me an example of how a smaller town than Ogden can have an effort that must have been huge and controversial to build and fund this museum. But it speaks a lot about Montpelier, I'm sure, to everyone that travels through there and stops at that museum, they think, "Wow, what an accomplishment for a fairly small town like Montpelier." And it seems to be an example of a town that's decided, "You know, we want a place like this. We'll invest in something like this, and it will be the right thing and the good thing to do for the town and for its growth and heritage." I mean, what would it be like if whoever funded the Coliseum decided not to, right? And a lot of these thoughts have come to me kind of later in life. I think when 45 of 47 Mom was alive doing this, I was in high school or college, and I'm like, uh, "Mom's really busy, and, yeah, we'll go help her." But yeah, I'm afraid some of these thoughts come to you later in life, how important a place like this is. AK: Well, I think that makes sense, and it seems like for her, all her efforts were also later in life. DG: Yeah, I'm sure a lot of people catch the vision early, like Stephanie Churchill and mom in Junior League. But for me personally, I was busy with my career after college. But looking back, I am super proud of Mom for what she did here, but also starting to figure out the world better have places like this. What would Paris be without the Eiffel Tower? Who took all the flak when they proposed it, and put up with it and fought and got it done? Yeah. AK: It's the price of community centers. DG: Yeah. Yeah. I like to say, it doesn't have to be a place like this for a wedding reception, but concert halls, art galleries. Do you know the Eccles Art Museum in Ogden? It's an old mansion, the Eccles mansion, brick and sandstone construction. And it's beautiful inside. I just love to go there, and we go there for art shows once in a while. And that was the home of, I believe David was his first name. David Eccles was a banker in Ogden, and he was in that 1800s group of community leaders, too. And there's many descendants of the Eccles that are community leaders here in Ogden. The Junior League offices are in that building, but it was quite a mansion that was built in the 1800s, and it's been restored and that's where the Junior League offices are. And it's obviously an art center with a lot of art classes and art exhibits. And it's a good example to me of, you know, a 46 of 47 community will gather together and buy this mansion and develop it into something that adds color and life to the community. AK: Speaking of the Eccles, were there any Eccles that were a part of helping with the museum? DG: I'm sure there were, and it's because there's so many Eccles and Brownings and Riches that are part of the cultural history of Ogden that I'm sure that…and you see the Eccles name all over Northern Utah as being large contributors to universities. And so I would be very surprised if there weren't some donations of money and efforts by descendants of the Eccles family. AK: Well thank you so much for interviewing with me today, David. I really appreciate your time and all your wonderful stories. 47 of 47