Community Oral History Thomas Moore, Sr. Interviewed by Alyssa Kammerman 18 September 2023 RootsBridge LLC Mission Statement RootsBridge cultivates connection in communities and families through the transformative power of storytelling. Our mission is to compassionately record life histories, honor unique experiences and promote empathy through shared narratives. By encouraging individuals to step into another's shoes, we cultivate deeper bonds between storyteller and hearer. In the communities we serve, we foster a sense of unity and compassion. We are driven by our passion for providing a platform for marginalized voices to ensure that every story is heard and none are diminished. We believe in a community where everyone feels connected and finds a sense of belonging. Project Description The Union Station Centennial oral history project is a companion to the Museums at Union Station’s “Heart of Ogden” exhibit, which commemorates the 100-year anniversary of the opening of the current Union Station building on November 22, 1924. In honor of the centennial anniversary, Ogden City contracted with oral historian Alyssa Kammerman of RootsBridge LLC to collect fifteen oral histories from community members who shared memories associated with the Union Station in Ogden. The interviews encompass the 1930s to the present day, thus documenting the period when Union Station was actively functioning as a train station and its subsequent transformation into a museum and cultural center. Community members interviewed included former railroad employees, Union Station employees, residents of Ogden, city employees, and museum volunteers. The diverse range of interviewees reflects the diversity of Ogden and provides a comprehensive view of Union Station’s impact on the community as a cultural hub and a place of shared history. ~ Oral History Description ~ An oral history is the spoken account of historic events in one’s life from the unique and partial perspective of the narrator. It is a primary source and unique interpretation of one’s lived experience. Rights Management This work is the property of RootsBridge LLC and The Museums at Ogden Union Station. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching, and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text / as long as credit is given to RootsBridge LLC and Ogden Union Station. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Moore, Thomas, Sr., an oral history by Alyssa Kammerman (RootsBridge LLC), 18 September 2023, Centennial Oral History Project, Museums at Union Station, Ogden, UT. Oral History Interview September 18, 2023 Interviewer: Alyssa Kammerman Interviewee: Thomas Moore, Sr. Abstract: This is an Oral History Interview with Thomas Moore, Sr., conducted September 18, 2023, for the 100 year anniversary of the Ogden Union Station. This interview was conducted at the Ogden Union Station by oral historian Alyssa Kammerman of RootsBridge LLC. During this interview, Thomas shares his memories of turning the Union Station into a museum and community center. He talks about the people involved in those efforts and some of the obstacles they faced. He shares the importance of Union Station to Ogden’s heritage, and his hopes for future preservation. AK: Today is September 18th, 2023. I am here with Thomas Moore, interviewing him for the Ogden Union Station Centennial Exhibit at the Union Station. My name is Alyssa Kammerman and I will be conducting the interview. So I wanted to start out with your background. So what is it that led you to be interested in the preservation of the Union Station? How did you get to that point? TM: Well, I don't really know, except I was in the middle of a boiling pot very early on. The Junior League was basically looking for projects, and the project that was bubbling in the city was the preservation of Union Station. There was great discussion at the time whether the Union Station, the building itself, should be destroyed, should be taken down, because the city was discussing ways by which the western part of the city could be developed. And if they took the Union 1 of 38 Station down, then they thought that 25th Street could come through and go on and develop the West. Well, our answer to that was, Union Station was the anchor to 25th Street, and any destruction of this building would be a criminal act. It happened at a time when there was great interest in the community, on the part of a lot of people---politically, culturally, just general interest on the part of the people. If you were to ask in a poll what was the most important place in Ogden, they would have said Union Station. It was... it was always here. It was a part of their lives. We moved here 60 years ago and I was thrown into the fray. My friend Carolyn Nebeker said, "You've got to get involved in this." And I had been doing preservation of houses and I had worked in Nauvoo on the restoration of homes, and I was very keenly interested. We had bought Mariner Eccles' old home in the historic district, and we thought, "I'd like to get involved in Union Station on a casual basis." But the thing is, Ogden and this building, it's the renaissance of the West. Everything had its roots here. When you have East and West and you join this country, it's joined in Ogden, Utah. That means the country became one at a time when Union Station was established and the railroads, which brought commerce and some of the greatest institutions like building of dams, banks, education, commercial enterprises, flourished in Ogden because the railroad came here. The thing that always interested me was there was very little education, small amounts of education, but there was a group of people that came here that 2 of 38 had an intense interest in developing their city. It was a city pride that was just inherent, and it exists today in the underbelly of the city. Well, I got caught up in this. So one day, the city was having an exploratory group and wondered if I'd like to attend, and it was going to be at Union Station. It was a rat hole. At the moment you'd open a door and there'd be nothing but pigeons and on and on. And I became fascinated with it. In the following weeks, a group of people gathered and I got more interested and more interested, as the group of people that were gathered to develop this project were outstanding. The people that I would recommend as heroes in my book: number one, I would say Teddy Griffith. Teddy Griffith was one of the people that came here as a member of the board with the experience and training in preservation. She had written articles and all kinds of university papers about preservation. She did Perry, Utah, the Shadrach Jones' homes in Perry, Utah. She did all sorts of work in preservation. Well, she clicked and I clicked with her, and I thought, "Boy, this is going to be fun." So our first meeting, Murray Moller stood up, and Murray Moller, I tell you, the first time I saw him, I thought, "What?" And then I realized this guy was essential because he organized the board, created the board of directors, and became the first president of Union Station. He called me to the side one day and he said, "I'm going to do this for one year. After that, it's your baby." I said, "Wait a minute here. I don't even know if I'm going to live here." He said, "You're going to stay right where you are. You'll stay put." So I thought, "Well, maybe I will stay put." But Murray Moller was a genius. He was the editor for Standard Examiner. 3 of 38 So when we had board meetings, he said to me, "I need a headline in every board meeting that I can publish." So starting from the very beginning, the newspaper was on our side. For that reason, Murray Moller, to me, is a hero. He's like Santa Claus on Christmas, you know? The next person I think that needs to be highly recommended and commended is Mayor Dirks. We could have had a government, we could have had a city council, we could have had a mayor that could have thrown every roadblock. But we had a mayor that was on our side. He came to the board meetings. He was excited. He told the city council what they would do when it came to Union Station. We didn't have to fight that battle. He was a hero right from the beginning, right to the end. I still know him. We still see each other weekly or so. He's my hero. He's just one of those people. The other unsung person I think in this is Steve Songer. Steve Songer is an art teacher, was trained at the Royal Academy in London. Personally good friend of mine. And he has designed since. And when we chose an architect to give us some ideas on what could be done with the building, who ended up being Steve Baird in Salt Lake, Steve Songer monitored every single recommendation as far as design line, so there's no flashing recognition in the community for Steve Songer, but the building is beautifully laid out, wonderfully laid out as far as use and whatever. He worked well with Teddy Griffith. He worked well with me. He worked well with the community. He was a great artist, well-liked. And he brought artistic talent to here. 4 of 38 The other person, which I suddenly, for some reason, my mind is not clear; I can't remember her name. I adored her. She had seen an article about Ed Laning, the most famous muralist in America. And she said to me, "Tom, let's go after the last grant that he wishes to give. The last mural he'll ever paint." I said, "Are you kidding me?" I said, "I mean, he did Ellis Island and all of the great big ones in the East. Why would he come to Ogden?" And before I finished my statement, I said, "I know why he’ll come to Ogden. He'll come to Ogden because it's the greatest story to be told. This is where America became one." And so this lady, whose name I have forgotten, and Carolyn Nebeker and Teddy Griffith and I got together and we wrote the grant that we knew was never going to happen. Well, within a month or two, the grant was granted and given to Union Station to record the history of the building of the railroad, ending at Union Station Promontory. And we couldn't believe it. Suddenly we got renderings of the mural. I said, "This is impossible." And here it is. If you come to Union Station now, in the main lobby, you see Ed Laning's great murals. This is the kind of thing that happened at Union Station. It was a gathering place for people of immense background. Then one day, probably one of the greatest moments of my life, I got a phone call from Mr. Val Browning and he said, "Tom, would you take me on a tour of the old Union Station?" I said, "Val, you want me to take you on a tour of Union Station?" He said, "I used to leave from Union Station to Belgium, by train to the east and by boat on to Fabrique Nazionale, designing guns and whatever. I knew it well." And I said, "I know you knew it well." And I said, "I'd be happy to take you 5 of 38 on a tour." So we wandered through the building, and the last moment when I took him home, I said, "What do you think? What's in your mind?" And he went, "I'll call you tomorrow." Everything was 'I'll call you tomorrow' because his mind was so meticulous. Genius, another genius, another genius. He called me the next day and he said, "Do you have a few moments?" He said, "Did I catch you in your pajamas?" I said, "I don't wear pajamas, but I'll find a pair and I'll be up." So I went up and he was standing at the door, late. I don't know, he always called late. I think he stayed up late and thought things through and then thought other people were up late as well. And he said, "I've been out to the armory, and I've only seen in two months, maybe seven or eight signatures of people that have visited the most important gun exhibition in the world." And I said, "Val, that's it. That's what we need." He said, "I would be interested in transferring what I consider my life's work, and my father's life's work, and my grandfather's work to Union Station, if you think that it would be appropriate." Oh, I mean, my heart started to beat. I didn't sleep that night. I called Mayor Dirks the next day, couldn't get a hold of him, so I called Carolyn Nebeker, and if you want to get something done, you call Carolyn. And finally, the mayor called me and I said, "What do you think?" He said, "Tom, this will put us on the map." I said, "Well, the first reason on the map is because we are initially, and always will be, bringing this country together as one country. This adds to that story." And so in the next while, the guns came, official documents were signed, and the guns were transferred to the city. It was... It was like manna from heaven. We had people from all over, before it was even up, looking at 6 of 38 these guns, saying, "Oh, man." There were four or five institutions, including the great museums in Washington and Cody and all these places that were dying to have these guns. But he wanted them to be in the town in which the inventor lived, to tie to that story. One day, Val again said, "My cousin," we called her Eugene Browning Ellis, "and I want to take you on a tour of old Ogden." I said, "The car's ready to go. Gas in the engine. When do I pick you up?" He said, "What about in an hour?" I said, "I don't know what I'm doing, but I'll be there." So we drove all around old Ogden, and he pointed out two big stories to me, two important stories, and that is the movement of the Browning office's Browning guns from the retail to the manufacturing and all the way through. And we walked around the building and around the buildings on Kiesel and Washington. And I thought, "Boy, I gotta figure this one out." But then he took us to another place which we'd have never known, and that is, he said, "Someday, you're going to wish that you found these." And they are the original granite pavers that were the main street of Ogden. And he said, "If you drive down Wall where there are delivery places” – which are all, they've all gone by now – He said, "Look at what the pavers that go, all of those pavers in granite from Washington were moved to Wall as drive-ups to the deliveries of all the way up Wall Avenue." And by the time I got home, my mind was just spinning. So the next day, I got up and I wandered around the building which, he showed me, was one of the last places where his father worked. From the outside, there were three windows. So I walked inside. It was a law office, and 7 of 38 Steve Songer was with me, and we asked if we could go up and check to see the rooms where the workshop actually was. We went upstairs, there were no windows. I thought, "Wait a minute here." So Steve Songer tapped on the wall and it was hollow. So we went downstairs and we asked the attorney, "Might we cut a small hole in to see what's on the other side of this wall?" And he said, "Sure, we just use it as storage." Steve Songer cut us a little patch o' hole, and we looked in, and we could hardly believe our eyes. It was the workshop which was just left. The benches were there, the chairs were there, the tools were there, the belts were there; everything was there, including their luggage, which they traveled back and forth to Belgium. It was all there. And we knew that we had this one chance to get that material to Union Station. So we went downstairs and I said – and I knew the attorney – "Is there any chance that you might let us have the contents of what's behind that wall?" He said, "Tell the city to write me a $10,000 gift certificate and it's yours." Tax contribution. So we went back, we took the wall down and we knew that we had to get it out of there that night. Steve had the marvelous, junkiest old truck. He pulled it down onto the street. We got rope, we went upstairs, and there were three of us. And again, another name that slipped my mind. We... all of the equipment, all the chairs, all the tools, all the belts, we sent down with a pulley on the end of some rope. The question was, how to get the workbench, which you could almost see graffiti all over the place. And I thought, "John M Browning worked here. He invented the greatest guns on this bench. We got to get it out of here or it will 8 of 38 vanish." 'Cause it would be an international thing, it would go to Washington or something. So we tied it with rope, two ends, and we lowered it out the window, but it wouldn't stay balanced. So the young lady who was with us stepped up and held the rope and with her two feet [mimicks balancing on top of the bench] we lowered it down. But it was a foot and a half short from the ground. She jumped off and we lowered the, the bench in the back of the old rumble truck that Steve was driving and took it to the city, put it into storage and self keeping. When I drove home that night, I thought, "It isn't the Louvre, it's not the Great Green Vault in the Saxon Royal Vaults in Germany. It's not the National Gallery, but it is the greatest portered part of the story of this country becoming one." Here was a man that, Goering said, "If it hadn't been for the BAR, Germany would've won the Battle of Britain." That was Ogden that did that. And I thought to myself, "These are treasures. This is just another treasure that belongs in this building." Needless to say, that was amazing. Then I thought, "You know, I've got to do something to raise funds to do the front of this building." Because if you stand anywhere up 25th Street and you look down on the 15th of July, it is the hottest place in the world to stand. So out of the clear blue, Carolyn Nebeker again contacted her mother, and Blanche Browning-Rich called me on the phone and she said, "Tom, would you meet with me, please?" And I said, "Oh, I certainly will, Blanche. Right, any time." So I went to her home, where she had her children, and they had a foundation. And they said, "We would like to have a competition, and we would like to have all the schoolkids in the area submit ideas, plans for some feature to be placed in the 9 of 38 front of Union Station." So when the design that was chosen, wonderful design, was a simple round center, like a globe. But from this globe would be walkways like a sundial, slightly raised in the middle that would send shafts of water flying through the air with Union Station behind. I thought, "Oh, let us go by rail." It was so fascinating to do. The problem was, we knew nobody that had ever laid... Like the roads in Europe, with all the pavements and all of the little cobblestones everywhere. But we had a sister city in Germany and we contacted them and they told us exactly the sand and how you do it. Well, what we needed to do is, what would we put in the middle? It dawned on me. The old center streets of Ogden that Mr. Browning had showed me, up Wall. So we had a bid because we would fill the cement walk areas, and in between, we would fill with Ogden's old Main Street. Well, the bid came in, and those days, I think it was $44,000. Well, we didn't have any possible way of $44,000 at that particular point that we could do. But Steve Songer and I were teachers and we thought, "That's it." A day out of school, no tests, no homework, hot dogs, all you can eat, and we'll have a chain gang. We'll have tractors come in, dig them all up along the street, and we'll have 150 kids in a chain line passing these all the way down. So all the cobblestones from Main Street Washington ended up in front of Union Station as if a gift from God. Well, I stood there and I thought, "I can't believe this. I just can't believe it." And it's another miracle that created this great building. And the pavers were put in the... We were told how to do it. And it's... It 10 of 38 was just such a great experience. And visually, then, the city can see what was happening and it was important. But there was a few individuals who still thought, "On 25th Street? Who in the world would ever do such a thing as 25th Street?" One lady said to me, "Blanche Browning-Rich is putting a fountain on the end of 25th Street? Oh, if her husband only were alive and knew that she was pouring money into that old street." And when I heard that, immediately I turned around – it was at a gathering – and I said, "Would you like to follow the history of this building?" I said, "I want you to call me once a month after a board meeting and I'll tell you how we're turning around this building." And I use the expression constantly: Union Station is the anchor of 25th Street. That's all there is to it. Well, then the big battle came because of the ownership and the original information with the gift of this land. And I said, "We've got to find it. There must be a deed. There must be some kind of a transaction." So two of the great heroes, two enormous heroes, Bob Hunter and Ralph Johnson; they were interns for the city in, I think in the law department or whatever. And he and I and the lady that then handled the records, they, the three of them, searched through every original document until we came up with the original gift. The land was given to the city of Ogden by Brigham Young on the condition that it remain a social gathering place. If it fails to do so, it will return to the heirs of Brigham Young. City Council says, "Well, we can't return anything to the heirs of Brigham Young, because that's an enormous family, or one person can deny. We better not go that route." I'll never forget, and there again was Mayor Dirk's leadership. 11 of 38 Well, we don't have to debate on this; you got the answer right now. Union Station, that's our project. So it was a very... Again, it was another miracle happening by two highly talented Ogden boys. And I know them today, they've gone up to be immensely successful, but their beginnings were here at Ogden. Another day. Murray Moller stepped down after a year, and the board unanimously asked if I would step in, so I became President of Union Station for six years during that period of time. My family had more fun, living in and out of this building. Phone calls at home, interesting people, people wanting to tell us little snippets. And it was just one of the great moments of my life. And one day I said to my wife, I said, "Stephanie, we're going to be here forever. I think this is our home." The phone rang. Here we go again. And it came on my private line, so I knew it was somebody who knew me well. And I said, "Hello?" And she said, "Tom?" I said, "That's it!" And she said, "This is Barbara Kimball-Browning." And the minute that she said that, I said, "Before you go any further, I live in the house where you were born." She said, "I know. My mother sold it to Marriner Eccles." I said, "That's right." I said, "You have another great gift that you would like to talk about?" She said, "Yes. I'm just wondering, what are you going to do with the mailroom at Union Station?" I said, "At the moment, the mailroom is unassigned. We are busy trying to do the little Browning Theater, which we have, which all the heirs of Matthew Browning are doing. But the other space has not been assigned and has not been discussed." She said, "We have a car collection which has been part of Matt and my life. We are not sure what to do with it. Would you 12 of 38 possibly discuss with your board and with the city if we might be able to develop the Kimball Browning Car Museum? And before you start, we're not young," she said. "We would guarantee that there would always be left a collection that could rotate, if this would be something that people coming to the Station might be interested in." I said, "Barbara, I'm extremely interested, myself." And so I brought it to the board. Before I could even get it out, it would pass through the board’s group. But, you know, when you are on a city board, you learn very early that you leak the information before you ever bring it public, right? Well, I'm good at leaking the story. And so by the time we met that day for a board meeting, it was hands-up clapping, and we were all excited. And I had to think: this town, for me, it's the Renaissance; it all came together here. There were great miners. They were great bankers. They were great families that built a town. There were great law... They all went to Salt Lake mostly, but they're coming back now, if you want to know. And I thought, "This is the place." I think Brigham Young would have come here if he could have. And I think he was always rather jealous of the entrepreneurship in Ogden, which was thriving, that he had to stir in Salt Lake. He always wanted that Union Station and the driving of the Golden Spike to go to Salt Lake. It didn't; it came to Ogden. It just kind of was a nice little switch. And when I think of this: another Browning family, another car collection, another gun collection, another support. How great could it be? Then I realized it was not just the Brownings. There were the Riches and the Nebekers and the Ellises and Tida and John Lindquist, who were huge supporters. But more than 13 of 38 just the money, which they did, it was... If there was a party, supposedly the right people came so that everybody wanted to come. And that was the beauty of Ogden, that it was a melting pot of such a diverse group and community. We had Japanese people on the board, Mr. Nakatani; we had another huge member on the board, Harold George, who was fabulous. He was the head of the department of the railroad, and he was magic. He could make anything work. And he had all the old railroad people, he kept them all warmed up like a good hotcake. And one day, he looked at me and he said, "Thank you, Tom." And he handed me his cap. He said, "I'm retiring from the railroad, but I want you to have my cap." And I have it today, and I see it every single day and I think of this building. If there's anything of good report, we seek after these things. And I think Union Station is the place that this town has as a monument to the greatness that exists here and the people that did it. As I stepped off the board after six years, having [unintelligible], I was exhausted and was building businesses and whatever myself. I got a package in the mail, and as I opened this package, there were three framed glass rendering drawings of Ed Laning's things sent to me by his wife, and she said, "I think these belong to you." And I said, "They don't belong to me. They belong to Union Station in the memory of Teddy Griffith." That's my story. AK: Thank you so much. I have just a couple of questions. You kept saying that Union Station is the anchor to 25th Street. 14 of 38 TM: Correct. AK: What did you mean by that? Exactly? TM: People come to Union Station. They would come to parties in Union Station. But 25th Street was a street of tradition that was dead. There were prostitutes, alcoholism. The good families didn't come to 25th Street. People got off the train and they went to the curio shops. And there is another great story, if you want a good one: The Murphys had the curio shops. You know, when Al Capone came to Ogden, he left saying, "Hey, I gotta get out of this town. That place is too rough for me." That was 25th Street. But when an anchor like Union Station rises, a national monument with a spirit greater than all outdoors, 25th Street will be the place to be. And that's what happened, and I knew it would. My friend Lucia Browning said to me, "Tom, stop." I said, "What do you mean?" She said, "We should tear all that old stuff down." I said, "Lucia, you and I are too old. You and I can't push those buildings over. Those buildings belong to this town. That is history, that belongs to the country, certainly to Utah, and most certainly, of course, to Ogden. It's fascinating. Restaurants will develop. People will come here. People will go into the souvenir shops. It will blossom. Just as the Station develops, the street will develop as well." And that's what happened. That's what I meant by 'the anchor of 25th Street'. But if you had nothing to go to, there would have been no goal, there would have been no place to, to... No ending position. And all the rest would've 15 of 38 crumbled all the way along the road, which did happen before we could get a hold of it. The federal government started tearing buildings down, building the atrocities that they build up and shooting fountains that don't work and blah, blah, blah. You know, they could go anywhere, but they weren't going to go in one step further because we stopped them. AK: One of the things I wanted to ask you about was the curio shops that you mentioned. Would you tell me a little bit more about that? Was that on 25th Street? TM: One of the greatest curio shops in the whole state was on the end of 25th Street. The Murphy family owned the... If you were 25th Street, it's Wall, right in front of Union Station. Even today, there are three buildings and those buildings were built by the Murphys and Mrs. Murphy's parents. They were original, they came with a, which is commonly called the non-Mormon groups, that came from Corinne and wherever they all came from. The curio shop, the Indians used to come doing their beadwork, sitting in front; there are wonderful pictures of the curio shop with the Indians doing embroidery and beadwork, and on and on and on and on and on. The Navajos would bring their jewelry and Mrs. Browning, their mother – that's another fabulous story. The photography of the city is just absolutely magnificent because another Browning, Dorothy Browning, lived at the top of the Reed Hotel right on the corner of 25th and Washington, and she photographed 16 of 38 all the great... when the circus came through and the elephants, and when the president came to Utah, you know, got off the train, those [00:36:47]Caruso things.[0.8s] This was a renaissance place because we were on the railroad, they could come. Those curio shops were places where the local indigenous people could sell their things. I had pieces of beadwork and I have a great deal of... I've gathered pieces of the turquoise jewelry that was sold there, and the rugs, oh my gosh, the Indian rugs. Just amazing. Right here on the end, Mrs. Roosevelt got off the train here, and she walked up with her guards because she was always wandering around the country with her friend, looking for information to send back to President Roosevelt. And she came up and used to shop on the shops, but didn't go all the way up, because I'm sure her train was leaving for San Francisco or somewhere. But those kinds of people came here. The railroad brought those people here. AK: So when the train stopped coming through, passenger service died... TM: It all died. AK: Tell me why was – and is – the Union Station still important to Ogden? TM: It's a good question. The war brought, again, there were more trains in here. If you sit here and look out all the way to the trees, there were tracks, trains, hundreds and hundreds. The ladies in the town opened up a coffee shop, giving 17 of 38 coffee and donuts to all of the soldiers that came through. It had a huge rebirth. And so for the period in the late ‘30s, late ‘40s, it had a huge purpose. But after that, it never really found its identity until this remarkable period that we're living in. The historical buildings tell the history of the people who lived there. You don't tear down the White House. Reason you don't, I mean, you build a more modern building, but it's a place that symbolizes all America for a whole period of its life. It's a monument to who we are, and it'll rise again like a Phoenix. And that's what's happening now. There's been one serious mistake we made, and I feel somewhat personally responsible for it. And I've been battered by my own children numerous times over the bad mistake. Mayor Godfrey came, and Mayor Godfrey felt that Union Station could come alive again if we used it as the depot for the FrontRunner. But some of us old folks that have been here since the beginning that had parties and dances, couldn't see people getting off the FrontRunner, wandering through the lobby where there's a party going on. And so we, in force, confronted the mayor, so he had to build a two minute walk, a new station for the FrontRunner. If that FrontRunner station had originally been here, this would have had a rebirth. But I can assure you, that's what's going to happen. This again, and the FrontRunner will be the impetus for the revitalization of this great building. Does that help? AK: It does, yes. I have another question. 18 of 38 TM: I don't mind at all. AK: So the Union Station, in 1988, was designated as the official State Railroad Museum. TM: Yes. AK: What was the process to get that designation? TM: Again, it was Teddy Griffith. When you realize some of the most important people in government, the Chris Hansons, an Ogden boy working in Salt Lake. Spence Eccles was an Ogden man with a lot of influence in Salt Lake. The influence of the families that wanted it preserved, lived in Salt Lake with tremendous political contact and power. It's again, the process of whatever the state said would be the State National Museum. They couldn't deny that there's no other place that the state could be represented more than by Union Station. And this has been an extremely sore part, that they contribute so insignificantly. But it's political and there's also other reasons, let's just leave it there. There's another hero here, and that's Julie Lewis. Julie Lewis was the president of the board, the corporation of the board, and you're not going to turn Julie Lewis down. She's a descendant of Matthew Browning. She knows everybody in Salt Lake. She has a group, Lisa Eccles and Muffy and all of her 19 of 38 friends. And let me tell you, there was a party here, and there was no way that the state could have finding, you're going to do a railroad museum, the state's railroad destination museum, you're going to put that in Provo? You gonna put it in Price? You're going to put it in St George? Hardly. It belongs to Ogden. There's just no debate. But the process was made and swiftly put through because of the political control and the political influence of people who deserve that respect. Not because it's political, because of some little agreement or whatever. It's because these people deserved this great recognition and their influence is deserved. Spence Eccles is a great friend of Ogden and he's my friend. He was born in my house. AK: So tell me, I know that big Browning Theater over here used to be the mailroom, right? You said that the car museum was also part of the mail room. Is that correct? TM: Well, all I know is that this was the mailroom and that I'm not sure how that originally was. If you can see the arches that were now filled in and designed, those arches, I think, in some way were connected to the mailroom. But you realize there were carts full of luggage off trains, you know, going everywhere. There were people with suitcases, I mean, getting on. It was a really busy place. And I'm sure that all of that space, but there's a story to that room, too. We couldn't afford the floor. You have to have a wooden floor for a dance room, right? Where in the world are we going to get the money to do that in an 20 of 38 appropriate thing? We got a phone call that said, "We have ends, pieces from wood this size [holds up hands off camera]. You could put them upside down and have the whole floor with pieces of wood. That would be spectacular." I mean, here we go again you know? That's because people see this building as Ogden's destination, and that's where they want it to be. The other story, which is, it's a building of miracles. It's truly a building of miracles. We needed an elevator. This particular building sits on the underground water. It comes down from the mountain underground because the bank building and then all those are on pylons filled on top of underground water. Ogden has this huge underground water system. So when they built the Station here, the water comes under the building. We didn't know how to do an elevator. And so, Boyle Furniture Store, closed its doors after many years, and they had an elevator, happened to have a B on the door. And as I went to look overhead their final sales, I was having lunch with Carolyn and with Teddy Griffith, and we noticed that the doors had this B on 'em. So we wondered if there was a way that we could move that elevator system into this building. B for Browning, what better? But we had to figure out a way that when it came down so far, it wouldn't keep going, or it'd go into the underground water. So once that was solved – and I think even today, if somebody kept going, it would hit the water – that elevator now is here. The other thing is, we didn't want a modern glitzy marquee. We wanted something that was fitting that would fit into the setting of the building. So the old business, I can't remember the name now, that was not far from here, had a huge 21 of 38 water tower on the top of it, and they had a horse that had been, um... I don't know how you stuff a horse, but anyway, it had this big enormous water tower and I thought, "Hoo!" It was Teddy who spotted it on the way to work, and they were closing down business and it was just there. So we wondered if we could get the water tower off the building and moved to Union Station as our marquee, which would fit in beautifully with the environment and fitting into the surroundings. It was a great day to see that thing come off that building, and how that was brought here was amazing. Again, another Ogden miracle. And now it sits out, there it is. But they're all pieces that belong to Ogden's history, and the old-timers like Val and Jean and all those old-timers that lived here, they all knew those things. They all knew where those things came from. They knew where the old cobblestones were, and they knew they had to be preserved, and they knew the only place was Union Station. AK: So where did you say that the water tower was from? TM: It was from a commercial building. I think it was a... I mean, I can find out the name of it and it'd be fun to get it again and find pictures of it. But about four or five blocks from here, it was on the top of their building, big water vane that had to come off the top and down and all. Cranes and everything else. Oh, it extremely exciting. 22 of 38 AK: So yeah, I actually wanted to ask about that; How did they transport that? DId they put it on the back of a truck? TM: It was on a huge... I recall, you know, I'm 80 now, so I can't exactly come up with all of these. But it was on the back of a, as I recall, it was a bed, that had I think, long wide bed of wood and placed on an under-bed of a smaller, of a truck, and... because it would be bigger than the bed of a truck, but I think the wood… And it came right down the middle of the street. They closed the streets. And I think they even had to remove a few power lines to get it here. But it was a fascinating experience. I'll never forget it when they brought it there, and I looked at Teddy and she had tears in her eyes. She said, "We got it! We got it." AK: And as far as the elevators go, the B; do you know, did that stand for something? Or did it just happen to have a B on the elevator doors? TM: Boyle's was the furniture store. Browning Gun Museum, Browning. So the B was a natural fit. I mean, we didn't put it there. It's the original color, it's the original old gold, and it still goes. I mean, you could talk about the building on and on because these stories just go on and on. If you want a fun time, when the old-timers get together, the old railroad folks get together. One night we had a party on the other end, a big, big room on the far end, of people from trains and people that had worked in this building, and all of the donors and everybody came. It was typical of Ogden: a mixture of people from all levels, which is the 23 of 38 reason Ogden has been so, so wonderful. It's such a multicultural, such a... there were Japanese people from the Japanese community and there were people that had worked on the railroad, people that had worked in the kitchens of the black servants, that worked in the whatever. They were all there together. And I just looked at Teddy Griffiths, and someone says, "Don't you feel like standing and singing God Bless America?" I said, "I think He is singing God Bless America! He's up there singing, look!" You know, it was just... Those things happened. I think, not to be critical, but I think the city could have helped when they didn't. They were short of budget or the fire department needed more money. You know, it's not like the city is flush. You know, the money just didn't exist. And Union Station, and here's the last hero, absolutely the last hero: Leon and Judy Jones; Their family carried Union Station financially when the city did not. And for years they did. I mean, there were agreements like the city would take care of every plumbing over, probably, over six feet. Right. So everything, it was under six feet, the city left it. So of course, they did every six feet, so they paid nothing. I mean, a lot of that. But I mean, it's nobody's fault that money doesn't grow on trees. But again, this family stepped forward. The parking on the end of the building, all that parking, the Browning family bought that property and ceded it to the Union Station. What do we do? I mean, these are not people that seek attention. You know, you say, [mumbles nervously, intentionally obscure]. And every time we have a party and it's a dedication of something-and-something and I speak, I tell about Mr. Browning and all of his gifts and all the help, and we wouldn't have gotten through it had he 24 of 38 not been here. And afterwards, I get a look from Judy Jones, his daughter, staring me in the eyes, and I just go [blows kiss] in gratitude. Thank you very much because you carried it on after your father died. And they still have a charity: you go to a Utah Symphony's performance at the college named after Val E. Browning, you find out that Judy Jones's Family Foundation, Val's daughter, sponsored the concert. I mean, it's the underbelly of this town. It's the underbelly of this town. People from Salt Lake City say, "You live in Ogden?" And I said, "Oh, you just better don't know. You just don't know what you're missing." You put a house up for sale today, boom! You put a house up for sale in Ogden 25 years ago, 30 years ago, it would have sat on the market till some [finger quotes] “kooky person” bought it, and certainly Stephanie and I are “kooky.” AK: You mentioned that there was an architect on your team, and I am trying to remember what the name was. TM: Stephen Baird. AK: Okay. Stephen Baird. TM: B-A-I-R-D. He was an architect in Salt Lake. He's gone now. He was the architect for the Church's restoration of the city of Nauvoo. I did the interior of Brigham Young's home, I did the interior of Wilford Woodruff's home. He was the architect 25 of 38 for both buildings. He and I discovered the... That was one of my great contributions. I said, "You know, we're in Brigham Young House." I said, "You note there's no bathroom in here. Brigham Young was a human being. You have to have a bathroom. Where would the privy vault be?" And so Steve Baird said to me, "Well, Nauvoo in the winter is covered in snow, so it's not too far away. So let's just say, how far would you run?" And so we figured, so many feet we'd figure, and we dug and we found the privy vault. We found shards of porcelain. You broke a dish, where'd you put it? Down the privy vault, right? So the privy vault was the discovery of all of the great treasures that Brigham Young left behind in Nauvoo. And we were able to find several of the shards patterns of Staffordshire patterns, blue and white. Several pieces of his china. And, you know, and it's my goofy way. It's what I love to do. AK: That's really cool, though. So, Stephen Baird, you mentioned that he helped with the design of some of the Union Station restoration, or some of the build-ons? TM: No, no, no. He was the actual architect of the exhibitions. The outside of the building hasn't changed, it's the inner use of the building. These rooms were not the rooms we're talking about. We were talking about the actual design of the interior use, the flow and the stairways and what could possibly go where. And he also, we had a... Why have I forgot the name? We had a magnificent landscape architect, a Swiss man married to an American girl living in Ogden. Internationally-known garden designer. They were the two that visually... But 26 of 38 Carolyn and I and Lucia Browning and a few of us, you know, our eyes aren't too bad ourselves, you know. We carefully followed what they did. They were terribly, terribly, terribly capable, but very, very expensive. AK: And so you did hire that landscape architect, then? TM: Oh, yes, he did it right to the end. I think that was the $74,000 we couldn't pay. Probably, I don't know, but that's possibly the case. This was a lively place. It's where people love to give money. People suddenly, they were having dances and the Mexican community had their quinceañeras. And on Friday nights, they loved to have it once a month or whatever. We used to come down, and watch them all dancing and stuff. It was just, everybody wanted to be here and it'll be that way again. AK: Was there anything else you wanted to tell me about? TM: The roof. AK: Oh, yes. Tell me about the roof. TM: The roofer tiles. The old tiles were getting discolored and broken. And if you lift it up, you'll probably find a pigeon on a nest, you know. And the tiles had to be replaced. Another huge expense. I can show you where the tiles are. I know 27 of 38 where the man that bought the old tile and he put him on, his home, the ones that were not broken. It's classy, wonderful. But it was aging the building and the new tiles had to go on. And that was just after my time, so I don't know the details. I just know that they took off the sign 'Go by rail,' which is gone now. Union Station sign is still there, but there was another sign that said 'Go by rail.' And for some reason, I don't know why, that'd be a good question to ask. What happened to the second sign? 'Go by rail' because it's not there and the photographs show it. What happened to it? AK: Who do you think would know that? TM: Oh, my gosh. Are you interviewing Roberta Beverly? AK: We already have, actually, but I can ask her. I have her contact information. TM: Well, here's another discussion: The rules were made originally that the guns in the display would end with Val's life. With Val or with John Vall. But there was a redesigning while we were living in Europe. There was a redesigning by Julie and daughter and whatever to put Bruce Browning's, who just died, gun, so it was a museum that was extended to show another generation of guns which was not Reed – there's the other great name, Reed Betts, who was Mr. Browning's personal representative on the board to supervise what was being done with the guns. I loved Mr. Browning when he said, "The rapid fires must be sealed," 28 of 38 because he was frightened of what might happen, just, so, "Those are war machines." And of course, we're seeing the damage that people with these guns are doing in communities now, in schools. Mr. Browning saw that long ago. One other thing about the building: It was all done in groups. The most wonderful groups. And, you know, I remember when I said, "I can't do this anymore," and I'm so committed. I remember when Bud Mitchell, who was a wonderful presence, stepped on and had several other new people like, particularly Jane Catlin, who I adored. There was another period of time that was really successful, and it was... he was a banker. He worked in the trust offices at the bank. And he was president of the board for two or three or four years, and he was a jolly guy, and he did a really good job. But after that, I think it became more of a place where people... were good archivists. That's what I was going to say: The Browning Archives, when Browning Guns sold... Oh, that's another fun story. Oh, that's a really fun story: One day, when Val left the offices, when they ended the Browning guns at Browning, I got a call from Val, and he was aging by then, and he said, "Tom, do you have a truck?" I said, "Yeah." He said, "I need two." He said, "I want you to go to Browning, and I want you to take all of the files out of his office," his whole life's files. We lugged them into the back. I mean, it was their personal banking and their own family wealth and whatever, so it was a lot of very personal things, and they wanted them out of public hands, of course. And so we got them all and we hid them in the basement downstairs and Judy said, "We're going to write a book." I said, "We're not going to write a book. You can write a book, but I want to 29 of 38 be in a book as a goofy person sometime." I don't have time to write a book. I'm too sentimental. I would be off on some trivia, which I'm a great collector---paintings, silver, Persian rugs, 18th century, I'm a great collector of 18th century figurines, Meissen, Darby, all those great things, and house... My mother says, "I will not give you any more beautiful tables." I said, "Why?" And she said, "In six weeks I can't see them anymore, and you won't move into a bigger house." So the life of the eccentric collector. AK: I have one more question before I ask my last couple questions. I am just curious because the floor that is in the Browning Theater, I have been told that that was original. But is that... TM: In the theater here? No. AK: Okay. That's good to know. TM: No, the floor was put in. There was no floor. It was a cement thing, I think originally. But we needed a wood floor for a dance floor. We couldn't have cement in those days and we couldn't do it. So some sort of either a lumber yard or somewhere, someone heard and they gave us the wood pit ends, they called them, and they're stand up pieces. And if you look at it, you'll see they're all this size and you can just lift them right out. 30 of 38 AK: That's fascinating. Okay. I do remember you saying that. TM: But that's a huge, huge item to have corrected because that's another sign of how contributions came that built this building and they continued to build this building. If you look on the wall in there you'll see: "This room has been done by the descendants of Matthew Browning" and all the branches of the family. Those things are the history of this building. AK: And I'm so glad that we're interviewing you because I feel like, where this is such a part of the community, there's so many like... what's the word? Myths, almost, about this building. Like the floor, because I had heard that it was original. TM: Well, I was here, though. AK: Yes, yes. TM: You see, I was here then. I was here after the mayor was gone and then after and just Teddy's waning years. You know, Carolyn left, I think, before I did, but she was a vital, vital person. We were cohorts. We were personal friends. My son got married to a Browning, and she's the aunt to my grandchildren. You know, all this kind of ties and that's Ogden. You have to be careful if you have a party that you seat the right people next to each other, otherwise you could really be in 31 of 38 trouble [laughs]. It's a town of a lot of connecting, and this building represents that entirely. But those stories, if you don't get those truths out, the stories grow and mushroom – like in Nauvoo: "This sofa belonged to John Taylor." And when I saw the tour, I said afterwards, "John Taylor? I bought this in Boston." She said, "Well, these are the six step-down chairs that Wilford Woodruff had sent from New England." I said, "Yes, he sent six step-down Windsor chairs for his home in Nauvoo, but it's not these. I bought them at auction in Philadelphia." I said... So, you know, I mean, stories grow and if we don't have some of those recordings, you know, someone said, like, come from the Berthana or something, you know, and blah, blah, blah. That's the other great building this town. That's for another generation to save. AK: Where is the Berthana? TM: The Berthana is the finest facade of any building in the state of Utah. It's over on... Let's see, this is 25th. Probably 24th, the end of the street that comes off of the mall, where you have the center. You're not an Ogdenite? AK: I didn't grow up here. TM: Yeah, okay. Where the Junction is, if you take by the theater and you come down the street, it dead ends into a group of buildings. If you look along that street, 32 of 38 you'll see one massive facade with huge trailings, which was the pattern of the the prairie-style. Our home has these bricks that go across and then one down. If you look at the bank building, First Security Bank building, way up at the top, you'll see these massive long strips that come down like this [gestures with hands]. Well, the Berthana had them as well, and it's called Berthana because Bertha Eccles and Anna Dee, the two widows of the richest people of the West, had no place to entertain the children. So they had weddings and dances there, and they always sent out a wedding invitation: "No gifts, please." But the poor girls got to their new homes or wherever with not a pen, you know. Oh, it's a really fun story. But there's a top room at the top of the Berthana that's never been touched. Still with the gilt gold and black, typical of the twenties, you know? Oh, gee, this town. Oh, it's just endless. It's just absolutely... And the Salt Lake people used to come here. Ogden was the shopping because you had the Nyes, and the Nyes brought things that... I mean, because there were extremely rich people that lived in this town, eventually moved to Salt Lake, their families. But they're coming back, like the Brownings are all here now. AK: That's so cool. That's amazing. I'm so grateful you let me interview you because I'm learning so much. So thank you. TM: Well, no, you can call me any time. You know, I think a question on the roof of a building is a very significant thing. And there's a great story here, and I'll tell you, it takes two minutes. You said to take the door to the Myra Powell Gallery. All 33 of 38 right? Here's another huge person you must mention, because she's not mentioned anywhere else anymore. One day, we were in a board meeting and there was a, see, you go down the hall, past the offices upstairs, and then you turn left and you go into the Myra Powell gallery. Well, that was a sealed-off metal door, and that's where the secret records of the railroads were kept, all their files. But I thought to myself, "From the outside, it's all brick, open trellis work, and it's open and there are pigeons all over this roof." I said, "Steve, we got to get in there." So we got city engineers and whatever. They pulled the door in, because it had a big door that pulled back into the wall, and it was the pigeon-shit of the whole city, on top of these massive files that belonged to the railroad. And so he said, "What do we do? Put it back?" I said, "Steve, you're an artist." "You're right." So the head of the little art group, we used to collect – on every show, we kept one painting, so we had a gallery started. And of course, all that vanished when we weren't here anymore. People didn't collect art anymore, at least... Anyway, and so I said, "You know, there is a woman on this group that's the head of this, that, the spirit of art in this town." Myra Powell, definitely. But Myra Powell had a very close friend and she was my friend and she was Lucia Browning's friend – she was everybody's friend. And she said, "I'll take over. I'll have a committee, and we'll turn that into a gallery." And can you believe? My mind has gone blank. I must be tired. She's, her name was... Oh, I mean, she had a great auction that I... Oh, come on, Tom. Everybody knew her. She smoked like a smokestack. I just loved her. She just has this [very deep raspy voice] deep voice, you know? And she'd smoke like this, like this [leans to the side]. You 34 of 38 know? And you'd just think, "Oh, this girl's, this is my friend," and she was deeply my friend. She went to Europe with me once, and honestly, I never had so much fun. She was 20, 30, 40 years older than I am. Stephanie and I loved her. Her name was... You've got to know her, because she's a major part to this project. AK: And you can always contact me after if it comes to you. TM: Lois Breeze. Her name was Lois Breeze. You've got to bring her in somehow. The building of the Myra Powell Gallery: idea of Lois Breeze. She raised the money, she got the lighting, she told the lighter, I remember she said, "You put that lighting up and you send me the bill, but do not expect a payment. You're going to do it for free, whether you like it or not. You can just write it off as unpaid, right?" And then Steve Songer figured out how to do the hanging of... We used to have exhibitions up there. We used to have wine tasting things, even the Mormons came [laughing, raises hand]. And I mean, it was just... Gay Schmidt, and, you know, some of these really involved people that were in the arts, the Cooms family... Another great experience here was when the symphony had no money, or the Ogden Symphony Ballet Association had an option on having Leontyne Price come and sing. Her fee, I mean, we're talking 40 years ago was $50,000. We had no more the $50,000 than fly to the Moon. So I said, "I have an idea. Stephanie, my wife's, father has a friend in New York who imports Oriental rugs, 35 of 38 the finest imported rugs. Let me see if he'll help us." So we had a Persian rug sale in the Myra Powell Gallery that was the funnest, the most exciting, people buying, there wasn't a rug left. Some of these for 2 and 3 and 4 and $5,000, that many years ago. But it all came back to Union Station. If you didn't have Union Station, where would you have a place like this? You know, it's all back to Union Station, all these events. And that's just the beauty of this building. It's just amazing. AK: I have yet to ask anyone about Myra Powell. So she was a board member, is that right? TM: Myra Powell was dead by then. She was, I think, I don't know... She was a watercolorist, an early one. I have one of her watercolors and she was much loved by Ogden old families, so to speak. The old families, like Bessie Gurley in Provo, you know, Myra Powell was in Ogden. And she was a personal friend of Lois Breese and Lucia Browning and Blanche Rich and and Mrs. Brewer, you know, all those old families, they had Myra Powell's, watercolors throughout their houses. Well, she had died, and she had left a trust of money into the hands of Bud Mitchell, who was her trust officer, and that trust still exists and helped fund the restoration of that building in the name of Myra Powell. I think she may have been a Dodger. I'm not sure she had ever married, but I never knew her. I came in 1968 and she was gone by then, but she lived on 29th Street. 36 of 38 Oh, I tell you, you know, the thing about this town that's fun is you get in your car and you just wander down the streets and you think, "Who lived there? That's an old house." And it's full… Quinn Harvey, ran for president of the United States, you know, and all this stuff. So my three daughters and I, what will I do with them in the winter? So we used to get, the city used to have card files by street, and we went up and down all the major central streets, noting who lived in each house. The city burned those records, but I have them, and I can tell you who lived in every house from Harrison to Washington. That's enough, that's enough chatter [laughing]. AK: [Laughing] Well, I have just one last question, which is: What can the community do to keep the Union Station relevant for future generations? TM: Okay, what it needs to be is it needs to be moved back to a new destination for which it was originally intended. It needs to be the train, the FrontRunner's station, to bring... that's what the original building was originally for, so that's what it should be again, because that's why it's actually here. In a town like this, we rely on tourists, so you can't rely when you have fewer people coming here than you do to the Eccles Arts Center. But nobody wants to do the building still; everybody wants, but no one can pay for it. The city can't pay for it, or they wouldn't pay for it. It wasn't a priority to be paid for. So it's got to be made so that it's viable again, and that is as a destination. Is it a destination by volunteerism? Or it's a volunteer, it's a destination by force. 37 of 38 I mean, to walk in, you get off the FrontRunner and look up at Ed Laning's murals. Every schoolkid in this town should get off the FrontRunner and look up at these murals, at least so that, "Oh, what are those?" But they're not going to see them now. That's what. The benches need to go back, but it's got to be a destination. That's the only survival for this city. It'll never be big enough, generate enough money in a community that depends on tourism. The scholars that will study guns will, you could move that to the university, you know, where it could be an archive study. We don't want an archive study, we want a destination where we can see firearms, and the history of firearms. But that's the answer. Total. Complete. Done. The money is still here. AK: Well, thank you so much, unless there's anything else. That was all my questions. TM: No, no, no. If you have questions, you can call me. 38 of 38