Oral History Program Reed K. Swenson Interviewed by Harold C. Bateman 16 April 1976 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Reed K. Swenson Interviewed by Harold C. Bateman Emeritus Professor of History 16 April 1976 Copyright © 2012 by Weber State University, Stewart Library iii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description The Weber State College Oral History Program was created in the early 1970s to “record and document, through personal reminiscences, the history, growth and development of Weber State College.” Through interviews with administrators, faculty and students, the program’s goal was to expand the documentary holdings on Weber State College and its predecessor entities. From 1970 to 1976, the program conducted some fifteen interviews, under the direction of, and generally conducted by Harold C. Bateman, an emeritus professor of history. In 1979, under the direction of archivist John Sillito, the program was reestablished and six interviews were conducted between 1979 and 1983. Additional interviews were conducted by members of the Weber State community. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Swenson, Reed K., an oral history by Harold C. Bateman, 16 April 1976, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. Reed K. Swenson 1 Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Reed K. Swenson (born 1903). Dr. Swenson served as Weber College Athletic Director from 1933 to 1971. The interview was conducted on April 16, 1976 by Harold C. Bateman in order to gather Dr. Swenson’s recollections and experiences with Weber College. HB: It is a pleasure to conduct a taped interview today with Dr. Reed K. Swenson. Now initially, I wonder if you would please state where you were born and when, and name your parents, and give any comments you may care to give concerning their influence on your life. RS: I was born in Provo, Utah in 1903. My parents were John C. Swenson and Margaret Davis Swenson. I can say that I was extremely fortunate in having such understanding and capable parents. I think each had a tremendous influence on my life, probably my dad more in my adult life and my mother more in my early childhood. I started school at BYU because my dad taught there; I was in the elementary school, high school, and college. I find that several other people and incidents made a definite contribution in my life, even more so than the school work that I supposedly engaged in. One of them was E. L. Roberts who was my high school coach and a good friend of my dad's. He was an exceptionally fine coach, and not only that, he taught character and so on. Two or three remarks he made have been a guide to me throughout my total coaching and teaching experience. We were playing one game with an opponent. They were rough, and they would hit and they'd hold, and at the half, we asked him what we should do: "Should we hit 2 back?" He said, "No. Take it as a compliment. Any time a person has to violate the rules to keep even, it indicates that he's inferior. And that holds true not only in athletics but also in life. If a person is not clever enough to tell a good story, he resorts to telling dirty stories to get attention. Another thing he said was that he would rather have a pretty team than a winning team. I thought that was rather peculiar at first, but later, I found that a beautiful team is also well skilled, a team that doesn't hold or foul or violate. And if you've ever seen a winning team, it's a beautiful team. The other statement he made was that if we were ever going to be in teaching or coaching, that we had to act like a magnet. If we were down too low, we didn't, have any drawing power. If we got up a little too high, we lost our drawing power. And so the influence of the coach on me set the pattern that I felt I should follow later on. HB: Tell us about your program of study and activities at Brigham Young University. RS: Well, I started at BYU primarily interested in playing football and athletics, with less emphasis on the academics. But as each year progressed, I became more involved. They had some very excellent teachers there. Herald R. Clark was one that had a great deal of influence with me. E. L. Roberts was another one, and of course, my dad. I took classes from him and was surprised to find that he was an equally good teacher as he was a father. And I enjoyed the informality of BYU at that time, because I knew just about every one of the professors. Another interesting thing about that was that my dad was head of the Lyceum bureau. I grew up understanding the cultural aspects of this Lyceum. He would 3 often bring these outstanding personalities into our home and I think that was as equally important in my education as many of the classes that I had. HB: Which sports did you letter in? RS: I played basketball in high school and football. As a matter of fact, the first football game I ever saw, I played in at BYU High. In college, I played football for 4 years. I wrestled for 1 week! That was about the size of my athletic competition. I did do a lot of other activities, tennis and so on, but not in varsity competition. HB: You played on the regular football squad at BYU, I understand. RS: I played football as an end; in those days we sometimes only had one or two substitutes. We played both games and I recall one day that the trainer said that Eddie Kimball and I were about the only two men on the team (this was in our senior year) that hadn't had a layout because of injuries. Which was a poor thing to say, because the next week in practice, Eddie broke his elbow! So it was a situation where you didn't have too many people and you played offense and defense. HB: What were your major subjects for your B. S. Degree? RS: Physical education was my major. In my first two or three years, because I had run the farm for my dad and I was interested in agriculture, and because I had an exceptionally fine teacher, I majored in horticulture. He left and I didn't particularly like the one that took his place, so I shifted to physical education and history, which indicates that the influence of an enthusiastic and well qualified 4 teacher has a great deal of drawing power, to have people go into a particular field. HB: And I notice you mentioned history? RS: Yes. I had a minor in history. I don't know just why. I think one of the interesting things back in those days was that there weren’t as many courses in the curriculum like there is today. I don't recall at any time having bacteriology in the curriculum until later on when I got to Weber, I had to take that to find out some of the things. So I took history and had an exceptionally fine professor again in William J. Stow who made it so interesting that I carried it out. HB: I believe you spoke very favorably of F. S. Harris and George Brimhall. They were presidents, of course. RS: They were presidents and I enjoyed Brimhall's three minute talks in our devotional assemblies. F. S. Harris came after I graduated, but because of my close contact with the school through my dad, I got to know him very well. He was an exceptional man. HB: Would you describe your graduate programs at the University of Southern California? RS: My program at Southern California I think was rather an interesting one. I had been at Murray when the Olympics were to be played in Los Angeles in 1932. And also, my old coach, E. L. Roberts had moved to California and was teaching at the University of Southern California. So Eddie Kimball and I, and Snyd Taylor, decided to go to summer school there to insure the fact that we'd also see the Olympics. We got down there and we were delighted with the 5 challenge of the school. University of Southern California at that time was not too large, and it brought in some of the greatest physical educators in the country at that time for the summer session. And I recall that I had the opportunity to take classes from great people like J. F. Williams, Webster, Brown and from Peabody, so many of them that you got a different viewpoint. I often think that classes are not so important as the stimulating teachers that conduct them. And that was one of the things I liked about Southern California. HB: What was your major there? I suppose it was physical education. RS: Physical education and also I had a minor in history. I selected teachers as a rule, if they gave the social content of history along with dates and battles, which I thought was infinitely more impressive. I think that it still holds true in just about any subject if it relates to you in some way, it becomes interesting. I enjoyed it. HB: I certainly agree with that. What was the title of your Master’s thesis? RS: I had A Study of the Organization and Administration of Physical Education in the High Schools of Utah. It was a survey type of study, but I found that some rather interesting things came out of that. In that study I had to examine the basic principles of organization and administration and content and curriculum. So I think that probably did me more good for my future studies and jobs than if I'd taken something maybe a little more narrow in scope. HB: I wonder what it was that attracted you to pursue your graduate studies at the University of Utah. RS: About the time I got my Master's at U.S.C., the war came on and they of course closed down shop. After it was over, I went back for two or three summers, got 6 within about a semester of it. But as I was coaching and head of the department, I found that it was practically impossible for me to get off for a semester., which I needed to finish;, because that would mean two quarters that I would be gone during the basketball season. So I shifted over to the University of Utah for practical economic reasons. Also, I think after a while, you get the philosophy and spirit of an institution and I think it's well worth while to change and get another viewpoint. HB: What was the subject of your doctoral dissertation at the University? RS: I made a study of the organization and administration of athletic programs of the United States. I got support from the American Association of Junior Colleges and others to help me do that because it was one of the first studies made of that. There were so many different small organizations or conferences that had no particular recognition and so one of my problems there was to find out and record all of the athletic conferences in the United States, which was quite a job. And it turned out to be that there was not too much consensus of opinion about athletic programs and policies which of course, led the American Association of Junior Colleges to correct those particular defects. HB: Is your dissertation in the Weber State College Library? RS: No I don't think so, but I have two. I've got one to give them but I haven't given it as yet. HB: I think it'd be very fine if you could leave one with the library there. RS: The other thing about the University of Utah, I ran across two exceptional men, others, too, but I thought two were exceptional. M.P. Nielson whom I had met at 7 Southern California who had been the state chairman of physical education, and the other which I had the greatest admiration for in my educational administration, was John P. Walquist and I think he was one of the great men that I have had. In fact, he had gone through the line of education from elementary school, junior high school, high school, college, and administration on just about every level. So he was talking about the education of people rather than the education that many of them had got out of books. HB: I have a very great respect for John Walquist. I never met Dr. Nielson but he certainly had a very fine reputation. Do you have any other comments concerning your work at the University other than you received your degree in 1951? RS: Well, I think it was one of the nicest things that I did because up to that point, I had become acquainted with so many people in Southern California and I wasn't particularly acquainted with the new people at the University of Utah. So my association with the University of Utah from then on was a great deal more profitable and closer than it would have been had I not been down there. HB: I believe we noted that you got your Bachelor's Degree in 1926, your Master's in 1935 and your Doctorate in 1951; I think those things should be on our tape. After graduating at Brigham Young University, you accepted teaching and coaching positions at Monroe High School and Murray High School. Would you care to comment on your tenure there? RS: I went to Monroe High School in 1926 which was I think one of the most profitable years of teaching that I've had. First of all, I had all of the coaching 8 and the entire physical education department. I had no assistants. I was hired because they thought I was an expert and left me to organize and to carry it out as I desired. During that length of time, I developed an ability to be resourceful and creative, to solve problems that I wouldn't have had if I'd been under the direction of someone else. And so I think that was exceptionally good. I taught football, basketball, track, physiology, civics and handled a study class, and it was extremely profitable, it was so good than when E. Allen Bateman wanted me to come to Murray, to take a position there, I was reluctant to leave because I liked the people, I had a good feeling there. But I took it, and I was certainly glad that I did because it was a step upward. HB: You evidently had a cooperative principal there then. RS: I had two great, great, principals; I had Charles White at Monroe and I had C. H. Anderson who was my principal at Murray but I had E. Allen Bateman who was my supervisor superintendent. HB: The C. H. Anderson who was at Weber? RS: Yes. He was my principal there. But at Murray, I think, we had some great boys. We also had some great fellows at Monroe. But at Monroe, we didn't have the competition needed to develop a team. At Murray, we were a small school and we had to play Jordan and Bingham and Granite and all of those that were great, and I found that if you want to improve yourself, you've got to play somebody who's a little better than you are, at least at the beginning of the game. And so we were in the state tournament, fortunately, because they happened to have good teams. 9 HB: That's when you were at Monroe? RS: Monroe and at Murray. That's six out of seven years we were in the state tournament, one year when we ended up winning the title. HB: That’s quite a record. RS: That was one of the other interesting things that I learned. After I'd won the tournament in 1931, this was right in the Depression, E. Allen Bateman said that he had not given me quite enough money up to that point but now I was a good physical educator, I was entitled to have the only raise in the schools. I said, "That it was funny you never recognized that before we went to State," HB: I worked under E. Allen Bateman at Logan. RS: He was a great, great administrator. HB: He was an administrator. That's true. I have a lot of respect for him. How did you feel the night that you won the state championship? RS: Numb. HB: You were floating on a cloud? RS: Oh, I don't know. It was a great moment without any question. But I tell you, when you're in coaching, you have great moments sometimes when you win. Well, let's put it this way. You don't get as great a thrill out of winning as you do in knowing that you and your team have done your best. And then if you win, why those two together makes it thrilling. HB: Well, concerning your marriage to Ruth Freebairn would you like to comment on that and your family? 10 RS: Well, she was down at Monroe as a physical education teacher and normally, we had to communicate with each other on programs and sometime we went along beyond programs, and most of the time it was very delightful. And as time progressed, it became even more delightful. And so the second year she was there and I was there, we decide to get married, which we did, and then went on up to Murray. From that marriage she has aided me and stimulated me in going on to school. We had our first daughter, Jane, who turned out to be a remarkably fine woman and teacher who graduated from Weber and also from USC, and Utah State. Jim, our son, went, to Ogden High and was student body president and went on into medicine and has done very well. Between the two, we have eight grandchildren. Ruth was killed one morning, she was driving a car down to see her sister in the hospital and somebody ran into her and she was killed. After that, it was kind of a rough go for a while but I found that working and carrying on with mostly the same things was important. In Building 3 at Weber, down the hall, was the director of the nursing program who had an open door and I would occasionally say good morning and so on, and again it developed into an enjoyable conversation and then into courtship later on, that ended in our marriage in 1958. And that has been a very, very delightful marriage. She has a son, with a doctor's degree, in Pittsburgh. He's now in research and he and his wife have three children, our grandchildren. We're extremely fortunate in having a warm and cooperative group of children that are well educated and do very well at the present time. 11 HB: In 1933, I believe it was, you received an appointment to Weber College. Would you describe your new position there and what the setting was in athletics and physical education? RS: I was appointed to go up there, and I was quite delighted to go. It was a new challenge; it was a junior college, it had a beautiful gymnasium. I went up there for fifteen hundred dollars. I'd been at Southern Cal to summer school and came back, delighted, to report on the 1st of August, and start earning a little money. Well, I find that the transition from the Church to the state presented a lot of problems. In the first place, the year previous all of the physical education had been taught by F. C. VanBuren who had operated the Weber Gym, a Church institution. All athletics were conducted by Merlon Stevenson and he was also head of the engineering department. HB: I guess Watson had retired at that time. RS: Yes. So as they transferred over, they had very little money, and that last year they just let everything slide. Supplies and equipment and suits and so on were about as low as you could get. So when we got in there, why we found that we had to organize a different program than the one that the Church had run in the gymnasium and also in athletics. Carl Belliston was there and he began to tell me of many of the problems he'd encountered. One was that they didn't pay! It wasn't until well into October that we got our first paycheck, which I think you could imagine, stands out very vividly in your mind. So Carl and I got together to outline what we were going to do. We didn't have any women teachers at that time and so Carl handled the women, and he was nicknamed, of course, "Dean 12 of Women." After about a month, Lucile Clark was appointed. We were delighted that she was here and so we sat down and organized our physical education program in harmony with our abilities we had to teach with the needs of the students, and also with the facilities we had. And so it was the question of sorting it out. We also needed some supplies and equipment and so we made an order of about four basketballs and about three volleyballs, a couple of sets of boxing gloves and a few other things and that order was sent in to the State Board of Supplies and Purchases in Salt Lake. They had never had any order such as that but they did like they do on all other orders; they put it out for bid. I suppose that the lowest bid was from Woolworth because the balls and supplies we got were of the old oilcloth type and the total bill came to less than ten dollars. So we had to turn around and send it back and indicate to them that there was a certain quality that you had to have. And so from then on, we did things by brand name and specifications as to quality and so on. That solved one problem but many others arose which we had to solve. So this transfer of funds from the institution to the remote state office created a lot of problems. I think the most traumatic experience I had was the day I made my call for football. In those days, you made a call for football practice the day school opened. It lasted until Thanksgiving. The Monday after Thanksgiving, you made a call for basketball, for whoever came out. After basketball was through in March then you made a call for your spring sports. This opening call for football, I had nine men report. I had three weeks to get the team ready for a game with 13 Hawaii. This had been arranged the year before and so we started an intensive search of the campus to find anyone who looked like he could play football, and finally got enough to make a team. We had some very good men on that but needless to say, we didn't turn out too well. We had some fun and a lot of development, and that was the start. The only great thing about that first year was that we only had one way to go and that was up! I recall later on I wanted to have about five basketballs for my squad and when I made that suggestion to the administration of the school, why, they wanted to know why we needed five, you only played with one at a time! And so this was interesting, if not irritating. HB: What about Merlon Stevenson; he stepped out, when was it, 1933 or '34? RS: '33. He went into teaching and administration. I had football alone, then basketball. I'd have one side to line at the other so I could have a scrimmage. I handled both the line and the backfield, the offense and the defense. The other sad part about it was that we had no field. We had good indoor facilities but outdoors, there wasn't any, and so we had to go to the various parks. You had to get out early or the junior high and the high schools would beat you to it. And there were certain parks that had trees and shrubs and so there wasn't sufficient space. And then again, the city commissioners wouldn't let us use some because it would destroy the grass and flowers. HB: Lester Park? 14 RS: Lester Park was one that we couldn't use. We could use Monroe Park. So sometimes we'd run to the park and get in that bus which the school owned and we would go till we found a place. HB: Where's Monroe Park? RS: That's over on 30th and Monroe. HB: 30th and Monroe, it's still there? RS: Yes. So that was one of the problems we had. But so it was a problem, that was just part of those particular days and we solved it the best we could and not knowing any better, we didn't know by standards today that we were overworked! HB: How large a faculty did Weber have at that time and student body? RS: I think that our faculty was under 20 and I think the student body was around 400 or less. The change from church to state upset a lot of people. The interesting thing was that the Weber Gym particularly was built by the church and the people of Weber County. HB: When was that built? RS: That was built in about well I'd say around 1925 or earlier. But it had been in operation for quite some time, and people had been accustomed to using that as the gymnasium for numerous types of community activities and when it was given to the state, we had to restrict it. A lot of them felt that the Church had no business giving away their building and so they resented it and also the school. And so we had problems which turned out to be very good in that we opened up a community program where we allowed people to have memberships for fifteen 15 dollars a year. They could come in during the noon hour and I later conducted some businessmen's classes at noon on calisthenics and they had a shower and so on. We also organized some evening programs of various types. We had no budget for it and so the only thing to do was to open up the pool and for the life guards we would give policemen a membership if they'd be life guards, for one night a week. We got about six life guards that way. We got Paul Thatcher to teach fencing. HB: Is that the attorney? RS: Vern Oberhansley taught our wrestling. We had several other people do various other tasks. We also organized leagues and regardless of the program, we worked it out some way or another which was again, I think, an interesting experience. HB: Were you in charge of the gymnasium then? RS: Yes. We had charge of the gym which had a nice set of four handball courts, a nice swimming pool, very ample locker rooms, a dance hall and office space. HB: Quite a modern building when it was built. RS: Yes. For that type of function, it was excellent. But when we attempted to shift for larger numbers, it became overcrowded, which holds true all the way along. I think they figured out that any building is outmoded in about ten years, just from the growth of people. HB: Let's see. You had the old Moench building and the gymnasium, and what became the President's home and the central building and then West Central and also the technology building? 16 RS: At first there was only the Moench and the Weber Gym. Later on, they built the vocational building during the war years. They bought the Central Building from the city. We took part of that and made an outdoor play facility too but that came a long time after the beginning. It was during the war years when Dixon was here that this started. HB: I noticed that you had written down here in some of your notes, Bob Davis. Was he the assistant football coach at Weber? RS: Well, I coached the first four years and then Bob Davis came on when Carl Belliston left. We'd grown to the point where Bob Davis came in as football coach and Faron Losee came in as the track coach and so on. So this was a transition at that point. During the first four years while Tracy was there and Creer, I was there, and when Dixon came in, Bob Davis was hired. HB: Then Mecham came in. Bob Davis went to Colorado, didn't he? RS: Mecham was coaching and he wanted to get on, and Bob Davis wanted him on so Bob got him a job as an aid in coaching football. HB: Did Davis bring Mecham to Weber? RS: Yes. And he was supervisor of the NYA dormitory, which Davis was running. So Mecham became the supervisor. We had the old courthouse over there between just off of Washington and 24th street. HB: I lived in that how many years? Four years? I think I did. RS: Well, that was a dormitory for a long period of time. The school got it, and then during the Navy cadet program, it housed the Navy cadet program. It played a very important part at various times. Mecham was called into the Army and left; 17 Davis stayed on during the war, up until the second part of the war, and then he went down to Colorado, as an assistant. HB: Did he go to Denver? RS: Yes, and then later on he went to Fort Collins. HB: I wondered about that. I had a note that Davis had been there. The next item that's quite interesting is that you served under four Presidents: Tracy, Creer, Dixon, and Miller. Would you care to comment on the Presidents? RS: I think, all of them were very able men. Tracy had been a great man under the Church and built the school, he was an idealistic man. He did many things for the development of the school. But like any other individual, he was incomplete. And so many of them at that time thought the transition from Church to state was not too smooth and he also had some squabbles with Skidmore, the superintendent of education. HB: Charles H. Skidmore. RS: So Creer was appointed. Creer was a remarkable man. He'd been a history professor up at the University of Washington at Seattle and he came down here and he brought an academic atmosphere that comes from a major college. He set up more money for the library; he instituted leaves of absence for teachers, sabbatical leaves, and started a lyceum bureau. He did many things that came at a time when it was very important. However, he did some of these things without regard to the feelings of some of the community and so he did have some problems. And so after two years, he got a position at the University of Utah as head of the history department. Then they brought in H. A. Dixon. This 18 to me was a very fortunate move, because Dixon was a man who could unify all the wounds and feelings that had come as a result of the transfer from church to state, and also, because of some of the things that Creer did, which some people didn't like. I think it all goes back to this: People resent change and when you get change, you get feelings hurt and so on. And Dixon had the ability to solve that as well as to do many other things that came about. I think one of the great things he did was to utilize the whole campus for vocational training by bringing in women for the war effort and to do many things. And, I think this was the beginning of a very exceptional trade, vocational type of education. Most of this was not for regular patrons but for people from outside and after he had trained them, they could go to Hill Field and work on government projects and so on. So he was able to capitalize on that, which I think brought him a lot of ammunition to hit the Legislature for funds to satisfy this particular need. HB: That's very interesting. I hadn't heard that point of view discussed before, but I can see that it sounds very logical. RS: In addition to that, I think as I say, Dixon did the great unifying service by organizing the advisory council where he got the principals and the superintendents and strategic businessmen from around the college drawing area, from Morgan, Weber County, Box Elder, Davis. They not only advised him but assisted him in putting over his programs. He did much the same thing within the school itself, in having the Academic Council, which met with division chairmen and other officials of the school once a week to discuss programs. 19 And also the format he set up fostered a cooperation of people and each of them brought their own ideas in and capitalized on the creativity of the group. Now after he left and went to Utah State, William P. Miller came in. I think William P. Miller was a great choice because, just about that time, we were in the throes of attempting to be brought under the control of Ernie Wilkinson and BYU. Many of the people thought it was sort of an underhanded deal and so they resented it and attempts were made to nullify that transfer which had been made and passed by the Legislature. So the community resented it, and I think we owe Abe Glassman almost full recognition for retaining us as a state institution in that he lined up people, and he used his newspaper to bring them into line and set up the program to get the referendum going. That again was a very interesting thing, not only getting the minimum number of signatures needed, but at least double the amount needed, which was very, very successful. Also during that time, there were so many conflicts of feelings. So many people didn't know whether to deal with the Church or the state, and it varied and they jumped from one side to the other. William P. Miller was a man of a quiet approach to this and didn't allow the official feelings of the school to take any direction. As a result, when it was finally resolved, he had avoided creating a schism, or deep feelings, one way or the other. And I think that one of Miller's great qualities, is that he has that ability to sooth people and he doesn't get bombastic in making a decision. He went about it quietly and he carried on. He probably is responsible as much as anything for the development of the 20 campus, the great increase in buildings, and the development of the four year school, again on the same qualities, that he brought cooperation as well as sincerity, and honesty to the community and the legislature and things resulted. So I think this, that whenever you have periods with a distinct need of a certain type of leadership, one comes along that satisfies it. And this is what I've had as an opportunity to work with these four, each made a very definite contribution to the school. HB: I had contacts, you know, with certain people at Utah State University and I gained a feeling too that there were certain individuals who wanted to get the progress of Weber stopped toward a four-year college and in order to do that, they wanted to get President Dixon. I think that created a certain amount of bitterness. Now I don't mean by that that I felt that the administration at Utah State wanted to do that, but certain elements there wanted to and they are quite jealous of their own school, and they are very concerned about Utah State University too. RS: I think that's true for a very simple reason: money in the state is limited and if Weber gets about ten or fifteen million dollars, why that takes away from them. And so this attempt to stop the four-year school was one that i thought was extremely vigorously carried on. We had the same problem in that they would not play us in athletics because athletics brought about publicity which put us on the same level. I think this is why they fought so bitterly behind the scenes to keep us from having any graduate courses. 21 HB: Well, you pulled a fast one on them; your junior college team beat their varsity team as I recall some years ago. RS: We did that twice, and as soon as we did, they stopped playing us. HB: But they did play Weber on the four-year level ahead of the other institutions. RS: Oh, we played the others too but we didn't happen to beat them. HB: Oh you played them before that time? RS: They had openings on their schedule. HB: That's probably the reason. RS: Well, again, there are two or three reasons why they would. First of all, as soon as the athletic finances began to pinch, they could see that you could transport a team from Logan to here and back for a very, very meager amount of money and fill your gym. So the net income is tremendous over what you have to spend, oh, ten or fifteen thousand dollars for some other place, and spend it all in that. The same thing holds true with Utah and BYU. Any time you have a place where the population can go from one to the other, you can fill their facilities. If it's a long ways away like from here to Arizona or other places, why, you have to rely on your own immediate people, which is half of what it should be. That's why it's so important. But it took a long time and I don't think that they didn't want to play us because we wouldn't be good competition. I think the main thing was that we got tremendous, tremendous publicity from our athletics. We always got more than any other school. 22 HB: I was interested to note that when you retired, that Gardner was selected and he was a former student at Weber and he was assistant athletic director at Utah State, wasn't he? RS: Yes. HB: Dutch Belnap is their basketball coach now. Did he play? RS: He played center for me in junior college. HB: Oh did he? I had him for a student too. RS: Very fine fellow. HB: Yes, I always liked Dutch. I understand he has ulcers though. RS: Yes, sooner or later, any coach either gets them or gives them! HB: Is there any other comments you wanted to make about President Miller? RS: Well, I enjoyed working with him and I think that there are many things you could say about him. He certainly was a good friend, and a good administrator. I think if you see the growth of the school from the time we went into Big Sky, as a fouryear school we were around 1800, and we went up to around 10,000. So the growth of the school under him came about through the support that he was largely marshalling one way or another. HB: I certainly think that the faculty trusted President Miller very much and that's saying quite a bit. They had faith in him and he was a man that you could depend on. RS: That's right. Not only the faculty, but the community too. 23 HB: I felt very good about President Dixon. I have said many times that he's the finest administrator under whom I ever served. I feel very kindly toward him and of course I feel kindly toward President Miller too. RS: Well, of course, I think this, that as far as administration is concerned, there are many types of administrations and under certain circumstances, that a different type of administration is needed. I'm fortunate to have had some great administrators from A. J. Ashton down at Sevier County to E. Allen Bateman to Tracy, to Creer, to Dixon to Miller. I don't know how you say who is the best; each was admirable for a given time. HB: I had very great respect for President Dixon. He seemed to care for you. RS: Yeah, he did. No question about that; he was a friend to everyone. His doorway was always open, you could go in at any time. HB: I oftentimes have said about President Henry Aldous Dixon, that you could go in with a tear in your eye and he would cry with you, you'd go in with a little steel in your jaw and he had a little steel too. RS: Right. HB: Any other comments? RS: I think that's it. HB: I guess the matter here of the program of athletics from '33 to '42. Would you care to discuss that? RS: Athletics in those days, as I indicated a little earlier, took from the people enrolled in school; they were invited out. There were no scholarships to speak of for athletics, no particular jobs available, unless they got on the janitorial crew, 24 but then the buildings and grounds were assigned those. But it took the people who were there. Many of them never played, so the coach's problem was to train his people in skills and in strategy, in conditioning, develop a will to win and a team spirit. He also did all of the work that needed to be done to get them in shape, training, business, transportation, and advertising. I recall I had to go down and see Al Warden about every morning to give him the dope so he could write stories about it. He had no reporters that'd ever come up there. So that's what happened. HB: You worked out the relations for the newspaper then? RS: Yes, and that was very good. I enjoyed that. I had a very close relationship with the Standard-Examiner and with Al. HB: You had plenty of time, too, didn't you! RS: No, but I had a free hour in the morning and I would go down and do that. Now, in addition to that, you had to take care of the field. It was like anything else. If work had to be done, you did it, which is all right. Now this came about, as I recall, because we had some good ball clubs and very little money. We won the Intermountain championship. We also entered in the AAU and won it. So we were invited to go to Denver, but we had no money. Al Warden called me and asked if we were going to Denver and I said, "Well, if we had the money we'd go." He said, "Hang on, I'll call you back in a half hour." In a half hour, he'd called some of his friends, and the money was available, and so we went. He did that in two different years. You had to do things. We had no money for any of the problems. 25 I recall we had a fellow with a broken leg. We took him to the hospital, we had to sign him in, the school wouldn't pay for that, his folks wouldn't pay for it, so he stayed in the hospital even though his leg was healed. He wanted to go home for Thanksgiving and they wouldn't let him till he paid the bill. The parents wouldn't pay it and they sent it down to the school. So we rented some films, and for about three weeks, we ran movies at noon. We charged the students ten cents to get in for this and finally ran up the amount that took him out. But these are some of the things that you did if you didn't have the funds. Many of the times, I've taken people to the hospital and I had to pay for it because I signed them in, the kids that lived out of town. So finally, I got to the point where I'd call the fire department or the sheriff's department so they’d come and get them, and let somebody else takes the brunt. This was the way athletics were run, it was an interesting thing. And this happened up until about the time of the war. After the war, then of course you had your Navy cadets come in; very few men were here in school, from about '42 to '45. After that, they came back in about '45 to '46 and had been away from school for a long period of time, anxious to go, and so everybody had good teams. We'd go in cars; at each school if they didn't have money, we'd put them up in their dorms, or in cots in their gym. It's amazing too because these people had been used to barracks, and when the lights went off, they were quiet. And it worked out nicely until you got rid of them and got another breed in. Then you had to stop that because they just didn't know how to live that kind of a barracks life. So it gradually began to increase in intensity, and here were the beginnings of some of our trips. Oh, 26 we played one football game in the Hawaiian Islands, we had basketball in the Coompton Invitational which led to the formation of the National Junior College and this was the it was. So we had a gradual improvement. You also had the G.I. Bill of Rights, which enabled the kids to go to school and once that started, then the question of subsidies for athletes in all fields took a great boost. So these are some of the factors that changed. As soon as we got to the point where we were ready to go into the fouryear program, we'd already begun to step up our administrative and our budget costs in athletics and so on. So this is one of the changes that took place. The other thing about it is that rather than the athlete doing everything for himself, at the present time, you have scholarships, everything if they want to do it. You have in the athletic department at least five coaches for football, you have three for basketball, you have athletic directors, you have publicity directors, you have ticket managers and programs of recruiting funds like the Boosters Club, or the Century Club, so your athletics have grown into a rather impressive type of activity, almost a big business because you have hundreds of thousands of dollars. HB: Let's see, I notice in your notes you had war years, have you fully discussed them? RS: During the war years was I thought a very important thing; we had these Navy cadets that came in as preflight training under Art Mortonson and his group here in Ogden, and they assigned us to conduct a physical training program. Bob Davis had left at the beginning, and Thatcher Allred had lower class loads, so 27 they assigned him. He was good at giving the commands for the calisthenics and the drills of that type and he did it very well. The interesting thing about it was that we had to give calisthenics and they'd go into different types of a activity in some cases it would be gymnastics, rope climbing and obstacle courses which developed endurance and strength. Then you had some in basketball which brought up organic vigor, and circulatory improvement. We had swimming classes where we taught them to swim with their clothes on and their shoes on. Everything we did was geared to the war. HB: I read somewhere something about the War Pilot Program and the War Ed Program; some of the programs were for women. RS: It's rather interesting on the women's programs of that time. Ida Stewart developed a program for women in the community in the gym to keep it going at night and they would take over the gym and she would have one or two nights a week. People from Hill Field would come out, the officers and so on, the women would come. They'd swim and so on. I went in there several times and it seemed like they were more concerned about having a social event than they were strictly an activity and there would be some three or four hundred women in there. If you had three or four hundred men in there, you just would not have an exercise program. So this was there but it served a very definite purpose for those who wanted to swim, play volleyball, or paddle ball or whatever it happened to be. We also had some 4 F's and we had a few classes in there and I learned quite a number of things on that. Here was a fellow without a leg, another fellow 28 without an arm, they couldn't run but they could all swim. So I searched the manual but there was nothing in there on how to teach swimming to a one armed man or a one legged man. You did know that you would use the legs for propelling and the arm for balance if one arm is gone, if one leg is gone, you'd use that leg for balance and the arms and so on. So we had a whole host of different types of adaptation for exercise to fit the needs at the time. At the same time we engaged in communication with Hill Field and particularly Bushnell Hospital at Brigham, which was a big hospital with a great number of amputees. And I'd go up there frequently to see them teach these kids and they'd have their sports days where they'd have legs off and they'd put on their wooden leg. Until that time they'd just sit on the floor and play volleyball and move around. As soon as they'd get the legs on, or the other appendages, they would start out with walking and running and I've seen them with artificial legs playing touch football and numerous other things. The interesting thing about it was that no one felt sorry for themselves because there they were in a like group and they weren't abnormal; they were all the same kind. But if you had one of those in a normal group where they all had legs, then you had embarrassment and certain other things. It was an interesting experience, HB: You got into the field of psychiatry a little bit and mental health? RS: Well, I don't know but living is that anyway. HB: Yes, it is, it really is. RS: You have to see and make people comfortable and show concern without staring in any situation. The people who came back from the war had their 29 health, physical education and gymnasium credit given, so they didn't need to take it. So we organized them all into coeducation. We had our tennis groups coeducational, our square dancing, our badminton, our volleyball and our social dance. Our classes filled, there were practically no absences, and everybodycame on time. They had been away from the opposite sex for so long, that we used these activities as the vehicle that satisfied the need that they had lacked and required and it was interesting. That again gave me some ideas about changes. I think another interesting thing was that back in the 1930's, during the Depression, few people had any funds for recreational activities and so on and so our activities were recreational activities. And we did a great amount of this, such as golf. We made arrangements with the city to play golf; we got clubs for practically nothing from the pros and let them play golf. We had swimming meets. At the time the Boy Scouts Yacht Club needed some assistants to run it, and so with the NYA we had, we got our students to take care of the boats and so on. At the Pine View Yacht Club we had kayaks and catamarans and sail boats and some schooners and some rowboats and canoes which could handle about fifty people at one time. Feron Loose our swimming coach organized it so we had a very, very interesting program of water and waterfront safety and everyone engaged in it. We also had intramurals and this was a tremendous program. HB: Where did you carry on your water activities? 30 RS: Pine View Dam. That's where the boats were for the Boy Scouts. We did it until school was out, the Scouts used it in the summer and in the fall, we used it in the afternoons and they used it on Saturdays. HB: When was that dam built? RS: It was there when I came here. So that was another project. We also had skiing and various types of activities. We had a school picnic in the fall where all of them got together. We had coeducational activities up at the canyon. In the spring we also had an outing at Como or Lagoon for men and women in the school. And this brought about a recreation type of thing for those who didn't have much money, and it was very satisfactory. But as soon as the war came, that changed and you had the proper conditioning of men for war and then you had the social activities to fit the needs of people coming home from the Army and following that, you began a series of application of scientific physical education dealing with the analysis and physiology of exercise and seeing how each activity contributed to increased performance. These included such things as strength, endurance, techniques of skill, flexibility, and proper body weight. It was amazing how the application of these, applied to athletes, improved performance so spectacularly that many of the commercial concerns brought about publicity to sell a given thing. So you had so many fads come up. The first one was weight training and weight lifting, and then there was isometrics, and each of those did one particular thing but not everything. Another one dealt with isotonics and then you had another thing with jogging 31 and then you had still others with yoga. So many of them at the present time coming in, all of them are good, but only for a specific thing. HB: Did you say Yoga? RS: Yoga is a form of stretching and of flexibility exercises and it has some other aspects, and somebody sells it for a different purpose. There's no question about its value but it doesn't do what they say it does. And neither does anything else and that's because in so many of these the result could be changed if you increased the intensity of it, the speed of it, the frequency of it and the duration. And so if you just do one thing it does some good but you have to have some progression. When you get down to any type of training procedure it's based on the overload theory. You have to do a little bit more to improve on what you have been doing. And you have to do it in all types of activities. So this is a change which comes about and one of the problems of physical education is to educate people on the right track. I suppose you recall how many of these mechanical gyms were on commercial concerns at one time, and then they all went out, and then comes something else. And many of these gadgets, instead of developing fitness, make you feel good, rather than follow this principle of overload. So here again is a very interesting development of change of program and I think you have to do that in all cases, whether it be in business or engineering or science. Changing times, increased knowledge, and the conditions the country's living in makes it so you have to adapt to fill the needs of people. That's what our focus is at the school: to retain the best of the past, advocate change where need be. 32 And that to me is the most challenging and interesting thing. If I had to teach everything the same as when I started out in 1926, teaching marching, calisthenics, by the numbers and so on, which came from the old German system of preparing men for war, it wouldn't have been very interesting. I think we did a lot of things back then that were interesting too. Right after the war, we had a lot of recreational activities going on at the parks; people could get jobs in Yellowstone or Bryce or Grand and so on, and as hotel or restaurant aids if they could also conduct recreational programs at night, and also on the playgrounds here in Ogden and Weber County. So I worked with those people and we set up courses in recreational leadership and games leadership, and trained these people and they went out and they served. The interesting thing was that I didn't have to ask anybody about these except we fulfilled a need as I saw it. When some of them transferred from the U, they said, "You can't teach that because it's an upper division course." Well, I said, "So what?" That was one of the nice things about those days; you didn't have curriculum committees that you had to go through and didn't stifle your imagination and creativity, you just went ahead. You didn't ask for any additional funds or additional space. All you did was put additional work on yourself. HB: What effect did the move to the new campus have on your physical education program? RS: We had no indoor facilities that we could use in the upper campus. We still retained the Weber Gym which was approximately 3 miles away. So students had to go by bus or by car down there in an hour period, enter a class, get 33 dressed and come back to the next hour. This made it practically impossible and so we had many conflicts about that. So during the winter months, we had to put up with that. We also had outdoor lawns where we conducted quite a few classes and also in the stadium. The stadium had been constructed and we were using it at that point. So all in all in that length of time, we were looking more to the future when we would have a new gym, and also, in 1959 when the Legislature granted Weber College a four-year status, all of our efforts and thought were devoted toward the shift from junior college to a senior college program. HB: You had some large rooms in the new stadium? RS: Well, we didn't at that time. In the old stadium we didn't have any. It wasn't until after it was completed and we needed more space, more office space. A Division of Athletics and Physical Education was housed over there but it wasn't until after 1968, I think, when that division was made. HB: I guess then you conducted many of your classes outside weather permitting? RS: That's right. But in 1959, we had three years to develop, justify and put into operation a new program. Our physical education program for the majority of students didn't need too much adaptation. We did enlarge our scope because we had more students and anticipated greater numbers in the future. Our athletic program was already in a state of progression to meet the needs of increased competition at a four-year school. But the preparation of a four-year program for the professional preparation of physical education majors and minors was much more difficult. 34 You find here that the athletic department was stepped up by increasing the fund raising program, the publicity department and recruiting, and also additional staff were hired for the head coaches. These developments were of course stepping stones to a successful program which later developed as a member of the Big Sky Conference. Our professional P.E. program was more difficult to develop. We assumed that a majority of our majors would seek employment at the junior and senior high schools in the intermountain area. This led to determining the skills and the competency that the superintendents and principals of the area wanted in their physical educators and coaches. In addition to this survey, we made a study of catalogs of approximately 100 four-year colleges of similar size or philosophy. There were wide differences in the offerings of some of these institutions but also some similarities and certain core requirements stood out. These requirements formed the basis of our new program. Additional courses and experiences were added to assure the competencies and the skills of our majors. Since that time, constant evaluation of the successes of our majors has resulted in modification and expansion of the programs. In the first 12 years of the program, 405 majors have received their baccalaureate degree. Parallel to the development of the physical education and athletic programs, a new gymnasium and playing fields were designed. In this case, you find that there was close cooperation between the staff of the physical education department and the architect, and we had numerous conferences that resulted. Before this occurred, we made study of gymnasiums in Idaho, California, 35 Arizona and Utah, and we asked each administrator what they liked about their building or what they would improve or change if they had to do it over. These answers in addition to our own experience formed criteria for the details. The size of each area should be large enough to provide regulation courts. Often adding four or five feet would provide an additional court, or make it that the courts, volleyball and so on, would be standard size. Each teaching station was to be so designed that it could be used without interference or conflict with the other. Storage space was planned adjacent to each station. Traffic lanes were planned from the outside to the dressing rooms and teaching stations to prevent non-participants from interfering with the activities. You also find that the dressing rooms, showers, drying areas, steam rooms were complimentary to each other. The offices and the classrooms were designed for a particular purpose that each used. So you had these criteria and as a result, we ended up by having a large gymnasium as one teaching station where basketball, volleyball, badminton and other types of activities were conducted. A second teaching station was on the south balcony where gymnastics was conducted. The north balcony was favorable for additional volleyball and other types of activities of various types. The fourth one was the dance studio. The fifth one was the hand ball court. The sixth was the weight training room, and the seventh the swimming pool. Each of these could be used independently and at the same time any of the others were being used. We also tried to diagnose future needs. We were convinced that from the 1800 students we had, that it would increase five or six thousand little knowing 36 that it would reach upwards of ten thousand before we were through. So we anticipated growth so that we could adapt to meet these changes. We also set out a priority of use which is rather easy because we were all in one department, athletics and physical education. The first priority of use would be facilities for the physical education classes; secondly, for athletics; third, for intramurals; fourth, for scheduled departmental or school activities; and fifth, for free play. We would meet each quarter and designate the priorities and times and schedules for each of these which worked very well and eliminated a lot of problems. So this was very stimulating. The only problem was that we didn't anticipate what the campus and the growth of students was going to bring about so we had a beautiful front entry. Later on they changed the road system so that the road never got there and so it's practically useless and our main entry is the two side entries up above. HB: Is that on the west side? RS: The west side is where this beautiful entry is, which is never used. Well this was the beginning of the change. In 1968, a change was made, and I retired from administration and taught from then on. HB: Weren't you pretty cramped by 1968, we had close to 10,000 students then? RS: No, not in '68, it went a little beyond that before it hit ten thousand. We were not too cramped in the physical education program. When you have seen teaching stations, and each of them could have at least six hours a day of use, every other day, would give you twelve classes in each of those, and that twelve by approximately 40 students would make 480 that you could handle in that one 37 facility. The difficulty comes when you have conflicts with athletics who wanted to use the total floor and also the five thousand seats that we had were soon overrun when we had to Big Sky Conference and we had winning basketball teams. HB: Well, I think we found that Weber did outgrow the gymnasium that is for seating. Is that true? RS: Well, I think that is partially true. I think a major concern there was that the seats were so uncomfortable and so narrow that many people, older people, couldn't sit that long so they didn't come. I think our five thousand seats that we have haven’t filled too many times and I think they would be if more comfortable seats were there. HB: Maybe this is getting ahead of the story but in moving into the special events center, will the athletic department have some control over that? RS: Well, when you get into this, I think you get into the future. I am not a prophet and I don't pretend to know what's going to happen because every year things change. It is primarily an athletic facility. Now I think we have an interesting shift from junior college athletics to four-year college athletics which I think is important to recap somewhat. As soon as we knew we were becoming a four-year school, we added our junior class in 1963. At that same time, we were out of junior college competition so we attempted to schedule four-year schools. The ones that we scheduled were primarily the smaller schools in Idaho, Montana, Oregon and we did very well with them. Also in '63, we had a game scheduled with Montana U. 38 HB: When did you organize the Big Sky Conference? RS: It came about after we were fully accredited by the NCAA. HB: When was that? RS: After we received accreditation as a four-year school. So when that occurred, we then applied. It's rather interesting most of those schools didn't particularly like a junior college entering into their conference. So you had Montana State and Montana, Idaho University and Idaho State which had great records who attempted to get into a conference but they couldn't make it. They tried with the Dakota schools, they tried with some of the others in California and Nevada, but they weren't successful. HB: The old conference, would be the Rocky Mountain Conference with Utah, Utah State and BYU, even the University of Colorado and Colorado State? RS: Well, those were a long time ago. HB: That's quite a while back, but Montana State and Montana played in that conference. RS: Well, Idaho and Montana played in the Coast Conference. HB: Yes they did. RS: Then Montana came into the Rocky Mountain Conference and then they reorganized that and Montana and Colorado State and Utah State were left out. HB: Yes. RS: Utah State didn't want to get in and so they had a difficult time. So to start a new conference, you must have at least six members. HB: You say Utah State didn't want to join the Big Sky? 39 RS: No. HB: They wanted to go into the WAC. RS: The WAC. They had hopes that they would sometime do so. Well now, in the meantime, in order to have six members of the conference, they took Gonzaga and Weber and It was formed. And it was formed at a time when Jack Field was the commissioner. It took two or three years for us to get to play all of them. We couldn't qualify for a conference in football but in the first year, why, Wally Nalder won for Montana. The interesting thing was that they thought he was a great coach that year, and the next year, why, he wasn't so great which happens often. I often have said this: you look at our records of what had happened to coaches that have been fired; we've had some very, very successful coaches that have been fired. Arslanian, Meacham, Wally Nalder, and the whole question there was that they were great people that somewhere along the line didn't fit into the expectations that someone or a few people had. HB: I thought Milt was a good coach? RS: No question about it. No question about it. I've often said that if any coach who replaces one that moves out was given the same budget and cooperation, there would be no need to get another one. Well now in this case, as far as Weber's concerned, we proved over a number of periods of time that we were a good addition to it. As a matter of fact, we won about four conference titles in basketball with Dick Mota and Bill Johnson, and Arslanian won or tied twice and always had a winning season. We did win, as a matter of fact, in 1968; we won the conference College Sports trophy. 40 HB: Arslanian was a good administrator, wasn't he? RS: Yes. A good recruiter; when you get down to it, the question of success in most athletics today is the ability to recruit quality players. If you don't have those, why, you have trouble. HB: I guess Nalder was a good coach too? RS: No question about it. And he worked on the sidelines. These people always had to be great fundamentalists; they had to be stimulating people and most of the time when they failed, if they caused failure, it was because of conditions beyond their control. Also, emotions create dissention if the ones that hire and fire go along with it. Then too, the problems with athletics, is when you are winning, the people are with you, you are great but as soon as you are not, why that's it. HB: I would like to have you talk somewhat about the formation of the Big Sky Conference. I believe it had to be recognized by the NCAA? RS: Yes, it was put in the application and it was organized. You can have a conference without being recognized by the NCAA but as far as the meeting at Spokane, the presidents were there. It was organized with the presidents of the six colleges. You also find that the institutional representatives were there and also the athletic directors, so each had their meetings and set up the guidelines which set the number of scholarships that could be given, the amount of membership fees that each individual should have to pay etc. It came to considerable discussion as to how much money it was going to cost, and this 41 was one of the great concerns of the presidents, and finally all was settled there and put into operation. HB: Were all the presidents of the institutions at Spokane? RS: Yes. You had to have it that way, otherwise it couldn't have been organized because the athletic programs are under their direction. HB: Did you have to do a lot of spade work before calling the presidents in? RS: Oh no. This was done long before. You see, most of the spade work was done primarily by informal talks between the athletic directors and they finally agreed this would be a good thing. We had three very, very good friends in Skip Daily of Idaho, Wally Swonk of Montana and Hank Anderson of Gonzaga. They thought we would be a terrific asset to it. They would get the President on the phone and he'd talk to the other presidents and before it was over, it was pretty well agreed on all the questions and the meeting in Spokane was just a formality. HB: It was well jelled then? RS: Yes. One of the nice things about it is that if you see any progress in the Big Sky, it's developed and grown and has considerable recognition by automatic qualification for the playoffs and so on. HB: Here's a subject that I think is kind of a tough one. You may not want to consider it, but what is your philosophy concerning the current emphasis on women's athletics? RS: There are benefits in athletics and sports of strength, endurance, skills and satisfaction at being physically and personally and socially developed. Each sex, and each individual, should choose an activity that their body structure and 42 physiological condition permits, and one in which they can excel. This should suit every individual. Opinions about women's athletics vary widely. Possibly this is due to the fact that each is thinking about different things. No one objects to teaching boys and girls skills in gymnastics, golf, dance, swimming, tennis, and all of the other athletic sports in elementary school. At this level, they are concerned about developing skills used by the body, in developing strength, endurance, proper body weight and just plain enjoyment. This is the place where emphasis should be placed so that all youth, boys and girls, begin to start to see the place of athletics in their future, if they have ability and interest, they may wish to enter into competition of limited pressure. No one objects to the continuing development of athletic schools and team games in the junior high schools, where competition can be had locally without great expense. Here again, the opportunity for women has lagged behind the men, and all would agree it should be provided. The same would be said about the senior high school, that there is to be a progression of satisfying the need and capabilities of girls. When a variance of athletic abilities appears in sufficient numbers, equal competition should be provided. The value of competition is diminished when competition is not equal. If equal, the individual or team which exhibits the greatest condition, the better technique, the better strategy and the greater will to win will win the contest. The same progression should be carried on in college. Free play for those who enjoy the game should be provided, intramurals for those who like competition but lack the time and the interest to make the 43 great sacrifices that athletes must make. Then, as a topping for the program which started in the elementary schools, varsity athletics should be provided for the exceptional and the dedicated woman or man. I'd say the biggest difference in the minds of athletic leaders comes in the administration of athletic programs. Athletics cost money and in most universities, they spend their money on the revenue producing sports. And there is quite a different treatment for the nonrevenue producing sport. This causes dissension and complaints that it's unfair that all should receive the same. Other athletic departments are eager in their scholarships, travel and meals. This is publicized and decided upon so that no one should object. Each college should get together and determine its athletic program for men and women on the basis that it is in harmony with the funds available and the philosophy of the school. HB: On behalf of Weber State College, I'd like to thank Dr. Swenson for the time he's taken to provide this outstanding history of the athletics and physical education work at Weber State College. He has done a very outstanding job in the conference, and in the state, and in the nation in physical education work. Thank you very much, Dr. Swenson.