Oral History Program Michael A. Palumbo Interviewed by Ruby Licona 18 April 2014 i Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Michael A. Palumbo Interviewed by Ruby Licona 18 April 2014 Copyright © 2014 by Weber State University, Stewart Library ii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description The Weber State University Oral History Project began conducting interviews with key Weber State University faculty, administrators, staff and students, in Fall 2007. The program focuses primarily on obtaining a historical record of the school along with important developments since the school gained university status in 1990. The interviews explore the process of achieving university status, as well as major issues including accreditation, diversity, faculty governance, changes in leadership, curricular developments, etc. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Palumbo, Michael A., an oral history by Ruby Licona, 18 April 2014, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Michael A. Palumbo April 18, 2014 Michael A. Palumbo Conducting the Weber State University Orchestra Abstract: The following is an interview with Michael A. Palumbo conducted by Ruby Licona on April 18, 2014. Also present is Stacie Gallagher, the video technician. Michael discusses his time spent at Weber State University from 1982 to 2013 as the Director of Orchestral Studies and Professor of Viola. RL: Good morning. Today is Friday, April 18, 2014. We are in the Wasterstradt Room at Weber State University in the Stewart Library. Today we are speaking with Michael A. Palumbo who retired a couple of years ago after—30 years? MP: 31 years. RL: 31 years on campus. He came here in 1982—which I didn’t realize until I had looked it up. You had your undergraduate degree from University of Denver and then you got your Ph.D. at Ball State. Now, those are a little far apart. Did you just go to Ball State because it had a really good program? MP: Yes. Actually, I ended up there because it had exactly the program I was looking for in a Doctor of Arts degree in orchestral conducting and my secondary area in viola. The reason I looked at it in the first place is because I was directing musical theater at Hagerstown, Indiana, a small summer stock, their education summer stock, and Ball State was quite close. Amazingly, they had exactly the kind of program I wanted because the Doctor of Arts degree is a performance degree based on teaching rather than a Doctor of Musical Arts degree which doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with teaching. So, it was the perfect 1 degree for me. I enjoyed the school, I enjoyed the faculty, I had a lot of freedom to do what I needed to do and, so, that’s how I ended up there. RL: Where are you from originally? MP: Denver. RL: Denver, so you went to DU—that makes sense. MP But I was teaching at Wayne State College in Nebraska and then every summer, went on the theater faculty there. My family and I would pack up and move to Indiana where I was the music director for the summer stock there. RL: Wayne State Nebraska, not the Wayne State. MP: Yeah, not the Wayne State. RL: I don’t say the Wayne State, but— MP Yeah, it’s a small college on the northeast corner of Nebraska. RL: It’s amazing how many little colleges duplicate names. At least, like the University of California system has the University of California, but they’ve all got different cities and so forth. Not too long ago, I was talking to someone and I made the assumption that her degree was from Illinois and it turned out that her degree was from South Dakota. MP: Oh, that would be— RL: Two schools. MP: Yeah, I remember because I unsuccessfully auditioned for a job there— Augustana. 2 RL: Yes. Apparently the one in South Dakota is referred to as Augie and the other one is the Augustana. One was Swedish and one was Norwegian or something. It just caught me off guard because having been in academia for a long time, you kind of have a feel for where a lot of schools are, but there are these little places that I wasn’t aware of duplications. Even so, in the Midwest at all, that’s a little far of a move from Denver, but I guess Nebraska is closer than— MP: Yeah, it’s just across a couple of states. Since that’s where they had a summer stock, that’s—we packed up a small trailer and pulled it behind a car that probably had no business pulling a trailer, but you do what you have to do. The kids and Cindy and I would spend the summer there. They would participate in the shows sometimes and I would conduct them. RL: When you went back for your doctorate, all of them went there? MP: Well, I started it the second to the last summer that I worked at the summer stock. In between my conducting things, I took some work that summer. I think it was the summer, I can’t remember for sure, the summer of 1978 and then I got a sabbatical to go back and spend a year. Then, I took a second unpaid leave of absence because I was on the fellowship, and between that and my wife’s job— RL: You could eke out a living. MP: We did alright, yeah. I just stayed then until I finished the doctorate instead of trying to do it coming back and forth. So, I was quite lucky I didn’t have to commute back and forth for years. 3 RL: Then, you ended up here at Weber State how long after you finished your degree? MP: The second year. I went back to Wayne because I owed them one year from the sabbatical and I just decided it was time to move on into a bigger program. I auditioned and applied for this one and here I am—or there I was, here I was. Anyway— RL: Here you’ve been. MP Here I’ve been for a long time. Yes. RL: This is kind of a logical place because this has always had a big emphasis on theater and musical theater. You came here when President Brady was here? MP: Yes. Rod Brady was the president who hired me. RL: Okay, and about that same time was when Bob Smith came in for VP for Academic Affairs and you worked under two pretty good guys. MP: Yeah, they were great. I still—I haven’t seen Bob in many years, but I still see Rod Brady at every commencement—at least I did. He was always there every single year. RL: Somehow, you come here and even if you think you’re going to be here just a short while, you end up bleeding purple and staying for quite a long time, don’t you? MP: That’s very true. I didn’t plan to stay here this long. I was going to stay here for a few years and then continue, hopefully to move on up. But, it turned out that this was continuing to move up—this school. Every time I wanted to do something 4 new, I talked to the Department Chair or the Dean and they said, “Sure, go ahead and try it.” So, I didn’t have any reason to move on to something else and the next thing you know, it’s been 31 years. RL: Now, the summer programs—the July concerts on the pond—did you start those or were those already in place when you got here? MP: Those have been going—well, I’m not sure how long they’ve been going. They used what was, at that time, called the Mormon Youth Symphony. Robert Bowden was the conductor back then and I got to know Bob pretty well. He was a great guy, and it was a really good little orchestra. I mean, it was from Salt Lake. It’s what is now—it evolved eventually into the Orchestra at Temple Square. After a certain number of years, they decided to move in a different direction and not use that orchestra anymore and I think it was a mutually agreeable parting of ways. At that time, I started and was conducting the New American Symphony. RL: Now, is that students and alumni or was it community based? MP: The New American Symphony? It was student and community based volunteer orchestra. We were asked to play for the Lindquist celebration that John Lindquist and Tita did. RL: How many hundreds of thousands of people have heard that over the years? I guess you’ve been doing it for quite a while, haven’t you? 5 MP: Well, we did it for—I can’t tell you how many years, but I would say probably ten years we probably did that. If you looked you’d see people spread out all over. It was just a mass of humanity. RL: Well, and it’s not just the people you can see here because I’m just a couple of blocks off the campus and I would set up a chair on my front porch and just listen to the music. I had some trees that would block the fireworks, but I’d listen to the music and I know my neighbors would have their entire extended family and they’d sit there very quietly as thought they were in a concert hall and everybody would listen to the music. I’m sure that was happening in a lot of front and back yards. It’s become a really dear performance and people really enjoy it. MP: Yes. It still goes on, of course. I quit conducting the New American Symphony quite a number of years ago, so I don’t really have anything more to do with it, but I have a different orchestra, but that’s a different story. RL: Well, is it Weber connected at all? MP: It actually is very connected. I had a number of students—alumni—that would ask me about starting an orchestra for them. “We need someplace to play, so it’s your responsibility. You graduated us, find us an orchestra.” So, after so many years of that and realizing that I was going to be getting close to retiring from the University, I started the Chamber Orchestra Ogden. Chamber Orchestra Ogden is a group that is primarily composed of alumni from Weber State. The difference is it also has faculty from Weber State and it has just very few community people in it. It’s a very good lower professional level orchestra. We have a Board of Directors and we just finally got enough grants that we can start paying the 6 performers. It’s a little bit of a different situation than just a community group. You have to play quite well to be in the orchestra. We’re based at Union Station. We do all of our rehearsals and concerts there and so, in the sense that it’s connected with the University, it’s peripherally because of the faculty. For instance, Tom Priest, Carrie Campbell, two of the people in the music area, are regular members and then most of it is the alumni from Weber State. We keep that connection between the two. RL: Well, it’s good to have that kind of continuity because someone could be a music major here and maybe go on to teach or whatever, but they tend to lose their ability somewhat if they don’t keep their talents whetted. MP: That’s absolutely true. Yes. If you’re not in the profession and you’re, say, you’ve gone on to be a lawyer or doctor or a stay-at-home mom or something like that, you just don’t find the time to pick up the instrument and practice as much. This helps that. RL: Whereas, if you’re involved in a group like this—and I think that even though it may not be—it’s peripherally connected to Weber, but several of the programs at Union Station like “Jazz at the Station” and so forth, all of those build good support and admiration for Weber State. MP: I think so. Yes, yes. “Jazz at the Station” has been just really, really successful. RL: Well, it was kind of sad because they announced at the last program that it was probably going to be it if they can’t find a new source of funding. I know when I’ve been, it’s been standing room only. 7 MP: Well, we’re hoping that something is going to happen with that, so don’t give up hope yet. RL: Well, I personally have made a few phone calls just in support of the program. I don’t have any particular weight to throw around, but I can at least voice support. MP: Well, it comes down to money, as most things do. That’s the driving force in any kind of music performance. It’s great to have a band or orchestra or choir or anything like that, but something has to support it. I think about my chamber orchestra—nobody came out with the idea that they would be paid. They wanted to play. But, my board of directors was very insistent that I pay them as soon we could raise the funds to pay the orchestra. RL: Did you get foundation grants? MP: We got foundation grants, R.A.M.P. grants—my middle name anymore is grant writer. I’ve learned to write grants and I never thought I would do that, but that’s how we make money. The board president and I are the main grant writers right now. RL: Are there any chances at some of the big boys, national endowments, or anything along those lines? MP: That’s in the future and the reason for that is we haven’t been a 501c3 long enough yet. We still have one more year and then I’m going to apply for the National Endowment for the Arts for—well, I’m just going to go for a very substantial grant, I don’t know how much yet. 8 RL: Well, you might get it and you might not and even if you just get part of it, that’s more than you had before. MP: Right. You know, they’re very good about saying, “This is why you didn’t get your grant.” So, I’ll learn something about it. We’re looking for an endowment for this orchestra so that we can gradually expand it a little bit and be able to pay on a regular basis and not have to wait until the end of the year to see if we have enough money that we can pay retroactively, which is what we’re doing— RL: Now, do you have support from any of the larger community corporations? MP: Some, yes. We have more and more. We get not large grants, but, you know, a $2,000 dollar grant or a $3,000 dollar grant, you just keep adding them up. RL: Before you know it, you’ve got $10,000 dollars in grants. MP: Right. So, we’ve got enough money now to pay the orchestra and I’m hoping we can finish up and have enough money to buy timpani, so we can become self-sufficient. Right now, our timpanist, our percussionist, brings his drums for this and the orchestra wants to have their own—you have to have your own equipment, you have to have your own music—although, Francisco DeGalvez, the new orchestra director who took my place here is very gracious about allowing me to borrow music from him as well. RL: That’s great. MP: Yeah, he’s been just wonderful about it. RL: I’ve always been impressed with all of the aspects of the music departments here. We’ve had some of these students that have gone on to Broadway and 9 then we’ve also had groups going to the Kennedy Center with the musical theater programs and trying out for all kinds of different things. It’s a very impressive program. When you first came here, having come from a smaller program, did you see much of a difference in the students? MP: That’s a hard one. Let me think about that. Yes. Overall, I found the students here to be of a—I don’t want this to come out sounding wrong, but maybe of a higher level of ability. I think it has to do with the fact that they’re in a larger school, more faculty—more specialized faculty. For instance, at Wayne, my responsibility was to teach violin, viola, cello, and bass. Now, violin and viola— fine—cello and bass—okay, but—it helped me become maybe a better teacher by having to figure out how the heck to do that without having really the chops to play the instrument. I also had a harp student. Now, that was a learning experience. Fortunately, she taught me how to teach her, and so we worked out alright. Here, we had teachers for everything, you know, I didn’t have to teach all of the other instruments and my job was more specialized and students got more specialized help. So, yes, because of that I think that the students here were probably higher. RL: You said that you had a lot of support in terms of starting new programs and developing new ideas and so forth. Did you find that it had an effect on the students and made a difference over the years—a difference between the students when you first got here and the level of sophistication when you left? MP: Oh yes, yes, yes. Not to downplay any of the students that were here when I got here, because actually some of my best players in the Chamber Orchestra are 10 students that were freshman when I was a freshman here 31 years ago. They were quite good, but now there are more high level students than there were back in that time. I think that has to do with the continuing sophistication of the department. RL: And the reputation of the department. MP: The reputation of the department, oh yeah, the reputation. RL: Our piano program has just gone rampant. MP: Yeah, Yu Jane’s program is, to my mind, the outstanding program in the area. I don’t want to offend any of my music friends when I say that, but I think, pretty much everybody would agree with me that it’s high level. RL: Well, for the western states it is way up there. MP: Oh I think for a lot of other places too. RL: For nationally, but still, certainly for the western states she’s had some outstanding accomplishments. How many schools Weber’s size are all Steinway? MP: Yes. Thanks to the efforts of a lot of people and a lot of money. RL: You’ve had some things to do with that. You were department Chair at the time, weren’t you? MP: Actually, not at that time. RL: No? 11 MP: No. When I was Department Chair, we had a bunch of ragtag old pianos and I worked out a deal with Yamaha to provide us with pianos and every year we got the pianos and every year we bought a few more. Finally, we had all the Yamahas and had good pianos and then Yu Jane and the Provost took it a step further and the next thing you know, we’re a Steinway school. It’s been continued. RL: We did have one Provost in here who was a musician, didn’t we? MP: Yes, he was a musician. RL: Dave? MP: Dave was a musician—a clarinetist. I don’t know where Dave went, Dave Eisler. RL: He went to Michigan, somewhere in northern Michigan. MP: Okay. We had a really good relationship with him, but you know, we’ve had such a good relationship with all of the administration. RL: You were here under three presidents. MP: Brady… RL: Oh, no, four. MP: Four presidents, yes. RL: Brady, Nadauld, Thompson, and Ann. MP: Yes. Ann and I came the same year. She was in that track and I was in this track and she’s been great. She was a fine president. 12 RL: But you each had your own strengths and accomplishments. Certainly, I mean, you didn’t get to be university president, but certainly as Chair of the Department— MP: I wouldn’t want to be university president—scary job. RL: But as Chair of the Department, I’m sure you influenced a lot of things. Now, how long were you Chair? MP: Ten years. RL: And those were which years? MP: 1997 to 2007. RL: Okay. At what point did we end the Utah Musical Theater Summer Program? MP: When I got here, there was a thing called Golden Spike Theater. I did a little musical direction for them. That went away and became Utah Musical Theater. RL: That was Jim Christian’s baby. MP: Right, yes it was. RL: I know when I came here in 1990, it was highly touted. I was reading a magazine that said, you know, for each of the states, things to do that summer, and for Utah it said, in addition to all the outdoor activities, there are two things you must not miss. One was a Cedar City’s Shakespeare Festival and Ogden, Utah’s Summer Musical Theater Program. MP: It was a fine program. I did a little direction in that one too. It was just, boy, they brought in some great talent to perform. But, what happened to it? Money. Again, 13 that was the demise of the program in spite of Jim’s best efforts. You still have to have money to pay people. RL: But he’s still having great success with his students as far as national recognition and so forth. MP: Absolutely. The whole theater area—Tracy Callahan, you know, Tracy and Jim, long time scholars. Tracy is going off to Kennedy Center maybe ten days from now. She’s going to be directing a show, picking a cast and directing a show there. How often does that happen for somebody? It’s a great feather in her cap and for Weber State as well. RL: And it wins us new students. MP: Absolutely. Same way the piano program wins us new students when people hear about Fan Ya Lin, or one of the other fine pianist we have and that influences them to forgo one of the big schools back east or come here. RL: Well, when you figure that she passed up on Juilliard to come here— MP: Yeah, it’s all a matter of the program, but the program is a matter of the teachers because the program is only as good as the faculty that teach the program. RL: Well, and the idea is to have Yu Jane bring in new people and groom them for when she’s no longer here. Hopefully that’s quite a while because she’s— MP: Yu Jane’s still young. Yeah, she and Shi Hwa are— RL: She came here practically as a baby so— MP: Yeah, both she and Shi Hwa were quite young back when they came. 14 RL: I’d say they were 30-ish when they got here. MP: Oh yeah, that was just maybe just a little bit over 30. RL: They’re both so enthusiastic and so good at what they do. MP: That’s the thing, that’s what you have to have. RL: Like I say, you need to bring in the successor and help them grow up and learn. MP: Yes. So far we’ve been very successful with high quality faculty. If somebody leaves, somebody else comes in that’s at least as high quality or even better. RL: So you were here under three different presidents. MP: Four. RL: Four different presidents, I’m sorry. President Nadauld was here for a short enough time that it’s hard to envision because everyone else was here for such a long time, you know. Did you find them all equally supportive? MP: Yes, in different ways. Steve was probably the one that I knew least well. As you said, he wasn’t here that long, but I have my little marble centennial thing that he gave out to everybody and that’s the main reminder of that. Rod Brady, when I talked to him and I was being hired, we sat in his office and he said, “You have to promise me that you will always make your programs available for anybody that wants to be in them.” Which I took to mean that anybody that wanted to come in and play, any student, of course, was welcome to the program. So, for many years I had an open, “You want to play, come join the orchestra and play.” After a number of years and being urged very strongly by faculty, I finally started making an audition situation. 15 RL: Eventually, you have to get to an audition method or— MP: There were just too many people and I loved them all, but if they don’t have the ability, you drag the rest of the group down. When we started auditioning, the group went in size like this and then it started to build again. RL: But in talent and performance it went the other way. MP: Right, exactly and that’s the thing that happened the first year I was here. I walked into this huge orchestra of people and I thought, “Oh yeah, this is going to be great, until I gave a down beat and found out that some of them couldn’t read music. RL: Well, I think northern Utah has a great deal of talent and I think partially that’s because of family emphasis on children learning either to sing, dance or play an instrument or all three. But, enthusiasm doesn’t necessarily lead to great talent. MP: Right. Well, I had 24 violins that first year. I remember the numbers and when I finished the end of the first semester, I had 12 violins, but they were a heck of a lot— RL: Did they leave on their own steam? MP: Well, let’s just say that—Oh, I wouldn’t throw anybody out, that wouldn’t have been right, but my rehearsal techniques are pretty intense. I’m sort of different when I rehearse a group like that than just talking to me. I can be pretty pointed. I don’t mean to be nasty with anybody, and I don’t think I am, but I make it clear that, “You don’t have your music learned. Learn your music.” Some of them realized that this is no longer a fun thing to do, so they left. Of course, the 16 orchestra built again and got better and better and then when I started auditioning, it’s become quite good as an orchestra. That’s the high point of my day, of course, it always was, getting in front of rehearsal and doing that then I could forget about being department chair, I could forget about teaching the class, I could forget about grading papers, I just rehearsed the orchestra. If I could have done that five hours a day, that would have been great. Who knows, I might still be doing it, but I left because it was just time. RL: Well, and sometimes it’s good to be able to judge that. MP: Yeah, I left before the students started thinking, ‘Why doesn’t he leave?” I think I did anyway, maybe some of them were thinking that anyway, but when I just felt that it wasn’t quite—as much as I love the kids, I didn’t want to do the job anymore. So, I got out before it became apparent to people that I didn’t want to do the job. RL: Well, sometimes, you start out with something and it’s challenging and it’s interesting and if it gets to the point where it’s just work, it’s not fun anymore. MP Yeah, that’s, you know, that’s too bad about all those people that just have to really go to work. I’ve never worked a day in my life. All I’ve done is be a musician. RL: And that’s the difference. You were under four different presidents, how many different Deans did you serve under? 17 MP: Oh, let’s see, you’re putting me on the spot—there was Sherwin, June, Madonne, Sesh was interim Dean for a year, but I think just the three of them. Yeah, Sherwin was a Dean when I came here. RL: Other than money problems, were they equally as supportive? MP: Oh, absolutely. The Deans, I’ve never had an unsupportive Dean. That doesn’t mean that everybody always said yes, but you don’t expect that. RL: Well, they kept you on your toes. MP: Yeah, they did. They were— RL: You go in hat-in-hand to ask for something, you better know what you’re talking about. MP: Oh boy, that’s true. I think that’s true. As I said, they didn’t always say yes, but I respected them and I respected the fact that I was just told, ‘This is the way it is,” rather than, “Well, let me think about it for the next six months until it goes away.” One of the things I always liked about Bob Smith, was that he would just say yes or no—boom, that’s it. I appreciate that in an administrator who doesn’t vacillate back and forth about things. RL: But if your ideas had merit and he could respect them, then he would back them. MP Yes, and that’s, again, most of the time people said, “Yes, go ahead and try it.” If I was told no, it was generally for some specific academic or financial reason. RL: Now, the students that you had over the years, I mean, some of them are showing up in your current orchestra and performances and so forth, but are there any outstanding students that come to mind? 18 MP: There are—I kind of hate to mention names. RL: Well, you’re afraid you might forget someone. MP: Yeah, and that’s true, but let me give you an example of one that’s quite recent— actually two. These are my grandstudents, which means that their parents— although one wasn’t technically a parent, it was somebody else in the family, but the other was her mother was a student of mine when I first started. Then, she came to school and just recently graduated, went to Eastman School of Music, is finishing her master’s degree and is starting a doctorate out there. She might be classified as the best violinist that we have had in the years that I’ve been here. Which is saying a lot because we’ve got some really fine violinists. Mariah Wilhelm is her name, and her mother was Amy Wilhelm— RL: Isn’t it startling the first time you realize that one of your students is the child of someone you had as a student? MP: Well, I watched Mariah grow up from literally nothing because Amy had her while— RL: While she was a student. MP: Anyway, it was just something else. Then, she went on to really be—I think is going to be just really excellent. RL: That’s great. MP: The other one is Gabrielle Cox. Gabrielle is a very fine violinist, but she was a music education major and wanted to be a teacher. Gabrielle is now on an LDS church mission, she left, it hasn’t been a year I don’t think, but eventually she will 19 come back and I’m sure go on to graduate school and become a very successful teacher. RL: What was the student population when you arrived here? MP: I think it was probably about 8,000 people. RL: Okay. It was about ten thousand when I first got here and now they’re up over 25. MP: I think we’ve tripled in size. RL: We’ve tripled the student population, but I think we have close to the same number of faculty. MP: Yeah, that’s one of the sad parts, but it costs a lot of money to get new faculty. RL: It does. Now, in other aspects of being at Weber, over the years have you been involved with other programs outside the department? Any of the Teaching and Learning Forum programs or anything along those lines? MP: I haven’t really done much like that. Most of what I did was serve on outside committees for other colleges for making tenure, teacher education committees for students that were doing their interviews to go into student teaching. Very little with Teaching and Learning Forum and what else— RL: Well, I was thinking just in terms of cross-campus collaboration and so forth. I’m not certain that I remember how I met you and Cindy—maybe through other people in the department, but, so you weren’t involved in any of the strategic planning and different programs like that. 20 MP: Oh yes, strategic planning. Actually, I was—Kathleen Lukken was the one that first put this whole thing together and it was a massive job and I was on that. Boy, that was really a huge endeavor, but it was necessary and I think very successful. Now, it sort of takes care of itself because each department or school takes care of it. RL: Some of the things that Weber planned on striving toward have been accomplished and if there were things that were not worth pursuing, then changes were made. Everything wasn’t carved in stone. MP: Right. That was the reason for actually setting up the planning and deciding what had to happen and what didn’t have to happen. When she did that we also had the assessment thing that was right along with it. That really defined the direction of the school and particularly the colleges and even more particularly, the departments. We still live by that—not the same one of course, but the assessment document which is updated in order to keep us current. RL: It’s become more and more important as the accreditation things have changed. It’s a more institutional approach to things and then of course people were— tenure is no longer a sit on your backside an relax until you retire, I think, you know, we’re having five year reviews of tenured faculty and— MP: Yeah, unfortunately there’s no teeth in it. That’s the problem, I would like to see— RL: Well, that might be the next step. 21 MP: I think it would be a good idea. I won’t go into that because that gets very involved, but I don’t think anyone that is tenured should just be able to say, “I’ve earned my position.” RL: You can’t rest on your laurels, you have to keep active. MP: Yeah merit pay is the thing that could really help a lot on that, but normally there’s not enough to make enough difference. If you say, “Well, if you don’t do better, I can’t give you your 400 dollars this year.” That’s not exactly a— RL: That’s a couple of dinners. MP: That’s about it, you know, take my wife to dinner a few times. No, it should have some teeth in it, but that’s, of course, my opinion and I know there are people who are absolutely adamantly opposed to post tenure review, but I’m not, I wasn’t, and I think I would have still felt the same way if I’d had to do it on a regular basis. I never had a post tenure review. I wish I had because I think some of it would have helped me focus and define myself a little bit better instead of sort of being left to my own devices to do it, you know. “What do I need to do to make this and what do I need to do for this.” If somebody would say, “Well, you know, we met and we see that maybe you should be,” “Oh, okay.” I take direction fairly well, I’ve been on stage. RL: And you’ve been on the directing end of it. MP: That’s right. I make a great tree. That’s how I can be used best on stage, you know, if I can just stand there because I’m a lousy actor. RL: Okay, well, so you don’t lose all your foliage. 22 MP: That’s right. Well, let’s see— RL: So, now, you said you always had support in terms of, “Oh, here’s a new idea, go ahead and try it and see what happens.” Did you have some failures? MP: I know it sounds like I’m thinking, “Did I really have any failures?” Nothing major because I always planned it with other people rather than just saying, “Hey, let’s try this.” It was, “Let’s get the faculty together and talk about it—my string faculty—make sure we’ve got all the bases covered on how we’re going to do this and then present it.” That helps a lot with failure not happening. Yes, failures, absolutely. As much as I hate to admit it, it’s very true. Shortly after I got here I moved my orchestra concerts to a Sunday night and I used to call it the Sunday Symphony Series and I dropped that name, but they are still on Sunday nights— although I understand that Francisco was thinking about moving them off of the Sunday night thing now as he does his own thing. I looked at this from the point of view of everybody is so busy during the week, Sunday night is a pretty good night for things and I had to be aware of the fact that a lot of people don’t spend money on Sundays and won’t buy tickets. So we had to make things available for them to be able to go to the concert because there’s really no problem with going to the concert, so I started giving out free tickets and I have always given out free tickets because I’d rather have an audience than 200 people that bought tickets sitting in the front row of Austad Auditorium. So, we were getting five or six or seven hundred people in the concerts and sure, a lot of them were paid by the house, but it worked out alright. RL: Again, that’s the sort of thing that builds up good community support. 23 MP: Right. The concert series on Sundays has been very successful. I liked doing that and it’s been—oh, I must have started that about 1987. I’d probably been here four of five years. RL: So it’s been going for a while. MP: Yes, it’s been going for a long time. The audience has slowly grown as more and more people discover the orchestra. RL: Did you notice a difference in the diversity of the audience or did you just look out and see how big the audience was? MP: Yeah, I guess I’d have to say I probably didn’t notice it that much. One of the reasons is you can’t see the audience real well, you know, and my back was to them. So, I don’t know much about the diversity of it. RL: I know I was a little surprised when I came here, having lived in San Francisco and New Orleans and up in Wisconsin and so forth, you have a different expectation of an orchestra audience. If you had to cough you left the room, you didn’t stick around. And here, you go to the symphony in Salt Lake and you’ve got somebody jumping up in the middle at end of a movement, “Bravo, bravo, bravo.” It’s like, “Well, if it’s so bravo, why don’t you wait for the whole piece to finish, you know. There’s a certain level of lack of sophistication on the part of the audience. MP: Yeah, that’s something that I think has gotten better though. RL: Has it? 24 MP: Yeah, I think in our concerts particularly it’s gotten better. People have a better expectation of what to do as far as concert etiquette. I don’t worry too much about a lot of stuff like that because if someone does that, I’ll just stand and wait with my arms up until they realize that maybe nobody else is clapping and then I just go on. The only thing that I don’t and won’t put up with is noise in the audience that I can hear. I will stop, and have stopped concerts. RL: Well, that’s a distraction for the musicians. MP: Right, so we don’t allow anybody under the age of eight in our concerts because nobody wants to have a crying baby behind them when they’re listening to the concert. That’s pretty standard, you know, Utah Symphony does the same thing. Most orchestras do that even going to a Mormon Tabernacle Choir thing or an Orchestra on Temple Square thing. You can’t bring in children that are under the age of eight I think. So, that’s pretty much the norm for concerts here in Utah as well as other places. RL: Yeah, like I say, I was just used to a different etiquette than what I encountered here and I was wondering and you answered the question that things have changed and the situation has gotten better. If you put together the money to get season tickets for something, you don’t want to sit next to someone who’s going to be a distraction all year long. MP: That’s right. You know, with the Chamber Orchestra down at Union Station, one of our goals, and it’s written in the mission statement of the orchestra, is to be a part of downtown Ogden. We want to be really involved in the city and as a result, we try to be as much as any group like that can be. I’m really heavily 25 involved now in the downtown and in the arts scene down there, but at the concerts, now, we get a little more diversity as far as sophistication of audience members because our tickets are five dollars, they’re really cheap and we have people that will come in to listen to the concert that might not come up to the campus too listen to Utah Symphony, so they have less exposure to classical music. So, rather than subject them, maybe that’s the wrong term, but I’ll use it anyway, to subject them to a full long concert, we keep our concerts at an hour in length and hour and five maybe. That way people come in and we just do it, no intermission, play the concert, it’s done by quarter of nine from 7:30 and they’re off and out. RL: Now, do you have the age limit there also? MP: Oh yes. Absolutely. The only time we don’t will be, for instance, next spring when we start our series of family concerts that we’re going to be doing each spring. This, the only restriction will be no babes in arms because babies still tend to yell and scream and howl, but it’ll be a concert for young people as well as their parents. RL: I’m a bit surprised that “Jazz at the Station,” this last time, I would say the audience was from two to 85 and it was surprising how well-behaved the children were. They were walking around and so forth, but there wasn’t a lot of noise and distraction. Actually, you saw some of the children get up and attempt to dance, but that’s a different approach, I mean, jazz and an orchestral performance are— MP: It really is different. Yeah, the jazz programs tend by their very definition to be more informal, which is great. We can’t make ours as informal and I really 26 wouldn’t want to, but the family concerts are going to feature, I think maybe we’ll do the William Tell Overture, but we’ll only do the portion of it that everybody knows because it’s actually quite a bit longer and has a bunch of other stuff that goes on because it’s very programmatic. So, we’ll do something like that and we’ll do some marches maybe we’ll do a couple of musical scores and just do music that the audience recognizes and likes. Then, for our first one next spring, that’s a long time from now still, but Shannon Roberts, on our faculty, trombonist and runs the jazz band and so on, Shannon is going to be the guest artist and will be doing a piece of music that he wrote. He’ll be the trombone soloist and then I’ll ask him to do some guest conducting on the concert as well. This is what we’re going to do each spring to make a concert like that, so we can get more families in. RL: To start growing audiences. MP: Well, yes, absolutely. RL: If they grow up with the habit, they— MP: Right, yeah. We would like to expand our audience down there too. But it’s gotten bigger than it was when we started and there weren’t many people around. This last concert we partnered with Ogden Regional Medical Center for heart month. So, we had a full house. We’d like to partner with different groups. Our next concert is in a week, Hope Kids is our partner and, you know, so we’re going to reserve 50 chairs and wheelchair space for them to bring in people and then they’ll talk a little bit about what Hope Kids is. That way it benefits them and it benefits us. 27 RL: Your performances are always just single performances? MP: One performance, 7:30 on Saturday nights, yes. We do three rehearsals for the concert, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday dress, and Saturday concert. That way it’s not a big impact on the orchestra member’s schedules and we don’t need any more rehearsal than that—three rehearsals and we’re ready to go. RL: They’re that good. MP: Yeah, it’s a good orchestra. I tell you, come down and listen on the 26th. RL: Well, I’ve got something earlier that evening, but I’ll see what I can do about getting down the street there. Now, and this is a different question— MP: That’s fine. RL: I asked you about failures. Were there things, however, not so much that they were failures, but that you were not able to achieve? MP: Yes. Almost always because of finances. You go for something and then it doesn’t work out and then you have to decide whether to let it stay the way it is, not finished, or to retreat from it. My usual stance, and it didn’t happen that often, but it did happen. My usual procedure was to back off of it completely. If I overestimated, oh I don’t know, something as simple as a a piece of music that I wanted the orchestra to play—although fortunately that didn’t happen much, most everything that they had put in front of them they did a great job—but my first year I remember well, putting out this music for this orchestra and after the first rehearsal I collected all the music and I went to a much easier program. That was my introduction to—oh, ok, bigger school, but they still can’t play this kind of 28 music yet. Now, I could have forced the issue and just let them do it the best they could, but it would have been a disaster and it wouldn’t have been good for them. Nobody likes to fail. RL: Especially if they’ve been set up for failure. MP: Right and that’s what I would’ve— RL: It’s one thing if you try your best and can’t make it, but if there were fences set up in front of you to begin with— MP: That would be me having set them up for failure, which is not right. So, in the privacy of nobody else knowing but us, we substituted other music and we’ve always had successful concerts, some better than others, but that always happens. I’ve played a lot of recitals, some better than others. RL: Now, as far as your department, were you able to grow that over the years? Like you said earlier, it costs a lot of money to bring in new faculty. MP: That’s been our biggest problem and still is. The department is limited by two things, very obviously, physical plant—the Browning Center, of course, and the number of faculty available. The faculty numbers have unfortunately not grown nearly as much as they need to. You will recall, I’m sure, of when we did the big renovation of the Browning Center and it was so much bigger and so much better and everybody loved it, but the departments, dance, music, and theater have outgrown the Browning Center. We don’t have enough room for rehearsal spaces, performance spaces, because there are too many demands on the little bit that we do have available for performance. I’m saying we, but you understand 29 what I mean, they, us, because I was there for a long time. That has been a limiting factor. We don’t have the practice rooms. We don’t have the office space. RL: One of the sad things is that it looks so new and modern. MP: Yes. RL: So, people say, “Well why do you need a new building?” MP: That’s right and that’s what we face. “Look at it.” It does look nice. You walk in and you look at the performance spaces and you think Austad Auditorium is a great performance space. It really is, you know, we’ve got the Allred and Eccles and the Black Box downstairs, but people don’t understand that if I wanted to give a faculty recital, if I have to plan that faculty recital around— RL: Months ahead. MP: Oh, a year ahead—around the theater performances that have to be in there because obviously they have to come first, because it’s such a big thing they have to have all the sets and everything else. The dance performances because they have to be in there on the Marley’s (the dance floors) and that all has to be set up, and everything else— RL: Then you’ve got Utah Symphony coming up here. MP: Of course, that’s the Austad, I wouldn’t give a recital in Austad because it’s so huge that it just kind of dwarfs a single player unless you have an orchestra. So, little things like that make it really hard to schedule because we don’t have enough space. We don’t have the dedicated recital space that would make it possible, say the music area, to play just to use as one space just for recitals for 30 faculty, students and so forth, that’s not going to change until they get a new building. There’s no place to build. RL: Well, things are happening though, I mean, there’s Elizabeth Hall that people thought those temporary buildings were going to be there forever and it’s beautiful, but I think it’s already been outgrown. We’re going to be getting a new science lab, I wonder if it will be outgrown before they get into it, you know. MP: And that’s—it’s a good problem, but also it does make a real space issue. As we get bigger with Weber State, and you start looking at the eventuality of 30,000 students which is not out of the questions very soon, where are you going to put them on campus? Granted, not all of them are on campus students, but even with the West Center, with the Davis Center and so on, the majority is here. There’s only so much you can do with a finite amount of space. RL: Well, we’re really lucky in the library because so much of our new materials are electronic, so we don’t have to have as big a physical footprint, but we have to have that digital capability and it’s surprising over the years how many more students we get into the library, whereas before it was a little bit different when we had books in every area and now we’ve got spaces for them to come and study and stuff. MP: Yeah, it’s become a much more spacious— RL: Welcoming. MP: Yeah, welcoming, from the library before the big change. It’s good. I love this library I think it’s great. 31 RL: I think the remodeling has helped—the different remodeling projects have helped a lot. MP: Yes. RL: We’ve got another one coming up and the emphasis is, you know, what we do we try to do for the students and make it more welcoming for them and provide capabilities that they might not encounter elsewhere. Well, what, from a personal standpoint, what do you think is your greatest accomplishment in your time here? MP: I don’t know if I’ve had any. RL: You’ve talked about the orchestras and so forth and obviously those have had a big impact both on the community and on the campus as far as the student’s abilities to perform and then go on to other things. MP: I haven’t given that any thought ever. I don’t know that I had any really significant accomplishments that I can talk about. RL: But it all adds up to a very successful time. MP: Yeah, it does and I think it was because I just kept persevering more than anything else. As a department chair, maybe getting a little more cooperation from everybody working together because we had essentially three different areas—dance, music, and theater—working together. The first step in the acquisition of the pianos, that was quite significant and we finally ended up with all the pianos that we own instead of just a bunch of old clunkers. Maybe that was it. I don’t know. I really don’t. 32 RL: Well, no, I just—you know, sometimes people have something in the back of their head that they’re very proud of. I would say, from your standpoint, the whole career is something you can be proud of. MP: Well, I suppose that’s true. I think maybe the thing that I did best, but it’s a joint cooperative thing with my wife, was we raised our kids and they’re successful and that’s good. Has nothing to do with school, but they both graduated from Weber State. Absolutely. RL: Did they go on to graduate school? MP: My daughter is finishing her dissertation for her Ph.D. in English Literature. She lives with her husband in Alaska. She’s finishing her dissertation and teaches online for the University of Kentucky. That’s where she went because there was a teacher there she wanted to study under as a mentor for her doctorate. So anyway, that’s what she’s doing. RL: Okay, so she’s not doing her doctorate up in Alaska, she’s writing her dissertation up there. MP: Oh no, she’s writing her dissertation up there. RL: I was thinking, what school in Alaska is known for a program like that. MP: I’m trying to think of the woman that she went to study with. A very well-known—I can’t think of her name now, but that was the highlight of her career, when this teacher decided to accept her as one of her students. So, that’s why she went to Kentucky. She hated the weather, but she hates the weather in Alaska too, so she wants to come back here. She loves Weber State and she said that when 33 she went to Grant for her master’s degree in Florida that she thought that the faculty was the superior faculty and a better program. I think if she could come back here and teach, she would be in hog heaven. RL: You know, so many times students don’t understand that sometimes you have to go away to be able to come back. They want to be able to do everything right here and stay here forever and that’s not the reality. Even in the bigger schools, you can go through a program there but that doesn’t mean you’ll get hired on. You have to go on to other places and accomplish other things and maybe you’ll be able to come back. MP: That’s true. She and Scott love Ogden, so who knows what will happen in the future. My son finished his degree in violin performance here and is actually really quite a fine violinist. He went out and played professionally for a year and said, “I can’t earn a living like this Dad, I don’t want to do it anymore.” He went to financial school and became a financial analyst and the vice president for Jackson Financial and traveled all over the country giving seminars and doing things for that. He was quite successful and then he said, “Can’t treat people like this anymore.” He moved to Ridgway, Colorado and bought a coffee shop. That’s where he and his girlfriend live. RL: Hey— MP: Yeah, and they’re just happy as clams. It’s a coffee shop bookstore. RL: A coffee shop bookstore and do they ever have any violin performances? 34 MP; He doesn’t play so much anymore, but they have music at the bookstore. It’s a great place. We took a motorcycle trip up there last summer and went down to Denver for my 50th high school reunion. Wait, 50 years—long time. So, we took the circuit and we went to Ridgway and spent a few days with them there. RL: Did you go across on I-70? MP: No, actually we didn’t, we—because of the time constraint because I had something right before I had to go, we just jumped on I-80 and went straight to Denver. After that, then we took our time wandering around. RL: The route on I-70, there are so many glorious vistas and it’s such a beautiful drive. MP: Yeah, we’re thinking about that if we go this summer. What we’re really thinking more seriously about is just getting on the little roads and going through all the little towns and just pointing the bike in the general direction of Colorado and going. RL: Well, and you’ll be staying in mountains. Times when I’ve been away, as I come back and start into the mountains, there’s just a feeling of home and of peace that comes over you. It’s just really wonderful. Well, what else do you want to tell us about? MP: Oh, I think I’ve rambled on forever. I don’t really have too much to say. RL: That’s quite alright. That’s what the purpose of this program is—to remember your memories at Weber State and your time at Weber State. 35 MP: My memories of Weber State are good. I’m sure I could think of negative things if I tried hard because nothing is perfect, but you know, I think my memories of the school will always be good. RL: Well, and what better thing can you have than to look back and be satisfied. MP: My family and I have been just very happy here. My wife worked here, as you know. My kids finished their degrees here and we’ve loved living in Ogden and watching things change in Ogden. Ogden is home and, wow, home for 31 years, which is longer than we ever lived anyplace else. RL: Then, you’ve got your orchestra involvement. Any other big things that you’ve got planned? MP: Well, you know, when I retired I didn’t retire to quit working. SO, I’m the president of the musician’s union in Utah and I just was elected as president of the American Viola Society which is a national organization. I still play in the orchestra for Ballet West. In fact, I have a performance this weekend. So, I’m really busy and I like being busy because I can’t sit in a chair and read a book. I’d love to do that, but I can’t do it all day. Or play computer games or whatever else—watch T.V. I haven’t watched T.V. for so long I’ve forgotten what it looks like. I don’t miss it. RL: Well, it costs too much. Cable every month is— MP: Oh that too, yeah, I guess, we don’t—I don’t remember the last time we had a T.V. on at home. We have a couple that are sitting there, but we have other things to do. 36 RL: You’ve got to watch Weber State when they go to the NCAA playoffs, you know. MP: Yeah, I guess that’s true, but you know, I have a club that I would go down to in Ogden and watch there because it’d be on their T.V. RL: And you can get food there. MP: And I could get food there, that’s right. Nope, it’s been a really good experience here and I’m still involved with the school a little bit and I anticipate being involved for a long time yet, I’m just not teaching on the faculty anymore. RL: It doesn’t get any better than that, does it? MP: No, it doesn’t. You’re right. I love the freedom of being retired because as busy as I am, it’s not, “I have to do this now.” I have to get it done, but I don’t have to go to class and teach at 10:30 or something like that. So, we’re getting used to being able to go outside at 8:00 in the morning and work in the yard if we want to instead of, “Got to get to work.” RL: I have always enjoyed in the summer, getting out on the back patio and just sitting there and taking an hour to drink a cup of coffee if I want to and watch the birds and listen to the dogs in the neighborhood barking. MP: Oh yeah, well, you know, that’s a little distraction. RL: It’s just a way of letting down. MP: Yes. RL: Well, Mike, thank you so much for coming in and talking with us today. I told you it would be fairly painless and it’s been really good to hear about your 37 adventures here at Weber and your accomplishments and I guess as a member of the community, I’d like to say thank you for all the things that you’ve accomplished and the things that you’ve helped to do in the university and the community. MP: Well, thank you, I appreciate that and I appreciate doing this and the effort that you put into this project. I think it’s going to be great. RL: It’s been successful so far and I thank you for taking part in it. MP: Well, thanks. Okay, great. Bye. 38 WSSO Strings - September 2010 Weber State University Orchestra Concert - 2010 Playing the Blues with Dan Weldon at the Wine Cellar - April 2013 Students Busking in Downtown Ogden - May 2011 Michael and Cindy in Mexico - December 2004 Motorcycle Trip to Colorado - July 2013