Oral History Program Samuel H. Barker Interviewed by Joan Hubbard, Jean Anne Waterstradt and Dian Wismer 30 July 1995 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Samuel H. Barker Interviewed by Joan Hubbard, Jean Anne Waterstradt and Dian Wismer 30 July 1995 Copyright © 2024 by Weber State University, Stewart Library Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in Special Collections. The Stewart Library also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description The Weber and Davis County Community Oral History Collection includes interviews conducted by Weber State University faculty, staff and students, and other members of the community. The interviews cover various topics including city government, diversity, personal everyday life experiences and other recollections regarding the history of the Weber and Davis County areas. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management Special Collections All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Samuel H. Barker, an oral history by Joan Hubbard, Jean Anne Waterstradt and Dian Wismer, 30 July 1995, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, Special Collections and University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. Abstract: This is an oral history interview conducted with Samuel H. Barker on 30 July, 1995, at his home in North Ogden, Utah. The interviewers are Dian Wismer, Joan Hubbard and Jean Anne Waterstradt. The interview concerns his recollections of practicing law in Ogden and his time working on the Civil Service Commission in Weber County. It is unknown which of the interviewers is asking questions so they are labeled I. I: You were born and raised in Ogden, and have observed significant changes in the area. Of these many changes, what most strikes you? SB: That's one I should have thought about. Probably the way the city has mostly grown since I can remember. I remember during the 1920 census, if my figures are right, the city was only 32,000 people. Goodness knows what it is now. The surrounding areas have grown the same way. Where we are right now used to be orchards and farmland. In fact, when I was growing up it was still orchards and farmland. I: Now, what part of Ogden did you actually grow up in? SB: I lived 82 years on 13th Street west of Porter. I was born in one house and lived there till I was married. Then I built another house. Before I was married, I built the house two doors up the street. I was married and lived in the new house till we moved down here to North Ogden. I: When did you move into North Ogden? SB: 1993. I haven't been here quite two years. My dad was born and raised in North Ogden. My grandfather, I think, built the first brick house in North Ogden. 1 I: So, the growth of the city strikes you hard? SB: I think so. I: When you grew up in Ogden, was it as diversified as it is now? Were there many different cultures and ethnic groups? SB: That is something I really don't know. But I think most of the minorities, the Mexicans, the Chinese, and colored boys lived down in the southwest part of town. Grant school. Do you remember where that was? Dad was principal for 20 some-odd years; they had probably the most minorities in town. The minorities lived in the Grant School District. I: What high school did you go to? SB: Ogden High. It was the only one here then. I: What year did you graduate from high school? SB: 1929. I: Then did you go immediately to the university? SB: Yes. I: What made you decide to go to the University of Utah? Did you want to stay in Utah or were you thinking that was the best place? SB: Well, Weber at that time was a two-year school and was not even accredited. I didn't see any reason to go somewhere else. I figured that was plenty adequate. Of course, Utah State was the agricultural college of Utah. That was a good school in agricultural and forestry. Nothing I was interested in. I: Were you interested in law? 2 SB: No, no. My undergraduate degree is in banking and finance, with a minor in economics. I: With all of the professions you could have chosen, what made you finally select law? SB: Well, I got out of college and got my degree in 1933. I went to get a job. The only job I could find was driving a truck in a junk yard, where that motel is on the north side of the river bridge at Washington. I didn't think that was a very good thing to do. Dad said, "Maybe what you ought to do is go back to school." I had already taken one year of law. I figured that would be helpful in a business course. It was either go back and get other law courses, or go back East and get an MBA. That was when MBA used to be popular. I decided to go to law school, and got my law degree. I: Thinking back on that now, are you glad you made that decision? SB: Probably, I don't know. I have never given it much thought. I haven't found a reverse year. When I got out of law school, I decided I would take a job anywhere, except that same truck as a driver. Dad said "Why don't you buy a cheap desk and set up an office and go into law practice?" This was at the tail end of the Depression. "When things perk up, you'll be practicing law instead of driving a truck." I never got around to finding a job. I: Well, you have certainly had a long and illustrious career in the Ogden area and you've been involved in many important events and decisions affecting Ogden 3 City. As you reflect back on these many contributions, what do you consider to be the most significant? SB: Oh, that's too hard to tell. I: Well, instead of thinking of something most significant, what are some of your significant contributions? SB: Well, I don't know about contributions. I tried to practice law two or three years. Fred Abbott was elected mayor. He appointed me city prosecutor, where I served for two years. Harm Peery, of course, then came in and Abbott went out. We were good friends, but bitter political enemies. I went quick when Harm Peery came in. Then two years later, in 1943, Kent Bramwell was elected mayor. He appointed me prosecutor again. I served four years. Of course, you all know what happened to Bramwell. I: No, what happened to Kent Bramwell? SB: Kent got himself in trouble. I think he was framed. The only instructions I ever had was to enforce the law. I understand that the chief of police had the same instructions, to enforce the law. Kent met with some people and had a conference with them. They made a few statements that were misinterpreted. While they were doing that, they were recording in the other room. He didn't know he was being recorded. I heard that tape. It is very difficult to understand. The recording device was very new. He got scared. They threatened him with all sorts of improper conduct – taking bribes and all sorts of stuff like that. A guy named Meyers was 4 involved in it. He used to have a gambling den in the basement or ground floor of the Eccles Building where the Utah Power and Light Company used to be. Instead of talking to his advisors here, he went to David O. McKay, President of the LDS Church, and asked him what to do. He told him to resign, so Kent resigned and joined the army. I heard a rumble one day he was going to resign. I met him over in the courthouse to ask him about it. "Oh, no, there is nothing to that." This was about 3:30 p.m. one afternoon. The city commission met at four that afternoon. He resigned at four o'clock. The newspaper just made hash out of him. They drew a great big picture of him saying he is no hero. He enlisted in the service. When he left, Dave Romney, who ran Bennett Glass & Paint, was appointed mayor. Romney served the rest of Kent's term and three more years. He left me in as city prosecutor and I served during that time. On the last day that Romney was mayor, he sent for me and I went to his office. He handed me a resignation and said, "I want you to resign." I said, "This is kind of funny. For four years, you never complained at all. Now, the last day, I am getting fired?" This was about noon on Saturday. He said, "Well, I think you ought to sign it." Okay. So, I signed it. He said, "Wait a minute, wait a minute. There is a vacancy in the Civil Service Commission. I am appointing you to that Monday morning before Harm takes office." That's a fire proof job. I sat on the Civil Service Commission some 34 years. 5 In those days, the Police and Fire Department started out under Civil Service. Then later, everyone was except the legal department. They had supervision over the personnel director, and if a man was disgruntled – thought he had been fired wrongfully – he had to appeal to the Civil Service Commission. The Civil Service Commission then conducted a trial to decide whether he stayed or left. Their word was final on those things. We made the rules regarding appointment of employees. In 1952, when Ogden went under a city charter, all employees in the legal department were under the Civil Service. It made it so that city employees were career people instead of political hangers-on. The department heads were not under Civil Service, and the legal department wasn't, but everyone else was. I: Did you enjoy that work during all those years? SB: Yes, yes, very much. I kept getting reappointed every six years. I don't how much time I had on the first one. I think there were four years left on that. Then I was appointed the additional six terms. I was the Chairman of the Commission most of that time. I: This was like a full-time career for you. Were you practicing law? SB: Oh, no. I had a minor law practice all this time. The city job took varying periods of time. Sometimes it would take most of the day. Usually, I would get there at 6:30 in the morning -- draw out complaints and so forth. I was usually back to my office by 10 a.m., but sometimes it would take all day, depending if we had a long trial. At first the Civil Service met once a month, then we met every second Wednesday. 6 We would meet at eight in the morning. I was usually in my office by nine a.m. unless we had a hearing. They were part time jobs. After I left the Civil Service, I was judge pro tem for the city court. If the judge was sick or on vacation, then they call the judge pro tem. If they couldn't find the judge, or needed a search warrant or something in the middle of the night, they called on the judge pro tem. Judge Smedin got sick after I was appointed. He never came back. He was very sick for months before he died. I was acting most of that time as the city judge. I: Did you enjoy being the prosecuting attorney? Was that a difficult job to do? SB: Well, it is hard for me to say difficult. You have to prepare your cases or you are going to lose them. I: Did you lose many cases? SB: I used to make a report to the city commission once a quarter. I gave them a report of the number of cases arrested, number prosecuted, number convicted, number found not guilty, and the percentage. My batting average was around ninety-eight percent of the ones that were arrested. The saying goes, either pay the judge or go to jail. However, part of the secret of that was training the policemen. When I first went there, the police were trained quite extensively. I spent one time with an older officer that was there training. They were experienced officers. I started a system of conducting voluntary classes on arrests, search and seizures, city ordinances, and state criminal statutes. We met once a week for most of two years, and, as I say, it was strictly voluntary. One night I had every single man there who wasn't on 7 duty. Every man on the force was there. When I ran out, they wanted more. So I got in touch with the FBI, and got an agent to instruct them on the practical aspects of police work. That was the only police training they ever had in Ogden except walking the beats with another man. That is the secret of the thing. The cop makes the arrest happen. I took the position there while I was prosecutor, if a cop wanted to call me at midnight to ask about something, he could do it. I'd answer. I: It sounds like your relationship with the police force during this time must have been excellent. SB: It was good enough that I was sitting in the Ogden City Mall the day before yesterday waiting for Marian – my eye sight is such that right now I can't recognize any of you ladies–some guy came up to me and called me by name. He told me who he was. He was an ex-cop. He had been retired from the force for 15 years. He talked about a bunch of people getting together talking about when I was the city prosecutor. He had quite a spiel. I: I am sure you felt great that he remembered you. SB: That's right. I: You have watched a lot of city administrations come and go. Is there any one city administrator that you have noticed is more confident and outstanding? SB: In the pre-charter days, I think Bret Abbott was definitely the best. He was mayor in 1940-41. Since the charter, I think Bart Wolthius was the best. I think they made a terrible mistake when they amended the charter three or four years ago. 8 I: How did they amend the charter, and in what way do you think it is a terrible mistake? SB: Under the original charter there was a council and mayor. For a long while they didn't like the mayor. The charter went into effect in 1951. The voters did not elect a mayor; they elected councilmen, who elected the mayor among their bunch. Later the charter was changed, and one of the council members ran for mayor and was elected. He presided over the council meetings and that was it. He had no more authority than the rest of them. The mayor handled the public relations part of the job. If there was a ribbon that needed to be cut, that was his job. The new set-up, they had a so-called strong mayor system. To be frank with you, I haven't read the new charter. All I know is what people have told me. Partly the mayor is a big wheel. Another thing bothered me considerably. Under the old charter, if the man was under classified service (civil service) – police captain, and was appointed in the unclassified service – police chief, he would go back to the old job and bump enough people back to make room for him. In other words, if he was a captain, a younger captain would be moved back to lieutenant, and younger lieutenant to a sergeant, and so on down the line. Under the new set-up, if you go to the unclassified service they fire you out. Now, I know one guy who told me he had been offered a job in the unclassified service three or four times. He said, "I don't know if they want me or not. I am going to take it. If I take it and they get mad at me, they fire me and I am 9 out. I am staying where I am." In other words, if he is a captain and they make him chief of police they can fire him. He is done. They can't get department heads to take jobs because they are afraid to. They could appoint an acting chief and then fire him the next day. He is out. That is the only way to get rid of heads of departments. In the old set-up, they couldn't do that. That is a major drawback. I have talked with city employees, and they are not happy with the set up at all. I: Do you think they are so displeased with it that there will be some changes made? SB: They will be satisfied with it, but they're not the ones who do it. That is the sad part of it – the public election and political part of stirring things up. I have not read this new charter. I have been told a lot about it. I haven't read it. I think it has serious drawbacks from the way it was done. In the olden days, the city council appointed a city manager, who in most cases was a professional administrator. They paid him an appropriate salary. If they wanted to fire him, I think the charter proved that they had to give him three months’ salary. Under this new set up, they mayor is the wheel. He is a politician, not a professional administrator. I don't know if you remember E. C. Allison. He was city manager. He knew what he was doing. He was a pro. Mecham is an attorney. He doesn't know anything about paving streets and repairing potholes and running a police department or fire department. I: Some people give the Standard Examiner most of the credit for spearheading the change. Do you think that is so? SB: The impression I had is that they deserve ninety-eight percent of the credit. I: What was their motivation? 10 SB: I don't know. I really don't know. I have been told by a member of the city council, who was also a member of the old arrangement – he said, "Our government is costing us two or three times what it did before. We have the mayor getting a great big fat salary, then he has an assistant, administrative officer, and a whole bunch of brass. All of them are politicians. They are not professional administrators." This guy was on the council for both systems. I: Did it work pretty well under the old system? I mean, under the old system you had a council, and a mayor served as figure head in public service. You felt that provided efficient government for Ogden, with the city managers? SB: Chairman of the council -- that is all he was. City managers dealt with all the details. The charter had a provision that I thought was pretty nice. If a councilman interfered in any way in the hiring, firing, or signing of an officer other than the manager, he was asking for a resignation. He was through. In other words, the mayor couldn't call the chief of police and say, "Hey, Officer Joe Blow gave my daughter a ticket today. I want him fired." It would be the end of the mayor if he did. Under this system he can. A mayor can do that. He can fire himself. He doesn't have to call the chief. He just up and does it. He has to appeal to the Civil Service Commission. I don't know how much authority the president of the Civil Service Commission has. I don't think he has very much, from what I have been told. I think it is a much inferior system. I: Are there advantages to this system? 11 SB: Sure. There are some very fine advantages. The mayor can get himself a big salary and political influence can be used where it wasn't available before. For the public, I don't think there is any advantage at all. The practical matter is how many people, when they vote for those things, even know what they are voting on. I: Were you surprised about how public life has changed before? Were people pretty much informed about things? SB: I don't remember. At the time it was a red hot issue. I can't recall any of the details now. The Junior Chamber of Commerce used to be very active in Ogden 50 years ago. They got in the act. They spent several years working before they got a charter. They really worked on it. When they finally voted to adopt a charter, they appointed a commission to adopt and draw a charter. They got some of the leading people in Ogden on there. I specifically remember Ira Huggins, who was an exceptionally fine attorney. With all due respect to colleges, he was a graduate of La Sal Extension University. That was where he got his law degree. He has even been admitted to the bar now. He was a very good attorney. At one time, Huggins and another guy were in the primary for the Democratic nomination for governor. The other guy beat him. The final came along and the other guy was elected. He would have been governor if he had beat the one guy in the one deal. I used to kid him along. I told him he had two serious problems. I: What are they? 12 SB: I said, "First, you are a Democrat. Second, you are a member of Kiwanis. If you were a member of the Rotary, then you'd be all right." I: Are most Rotarians Republicans? SB: I think it is safe to say 95% are Republicans. Now, that is not a criteria. I: Mr. Barker, what are some of the positive aspects of the growth and development of Ogden? SB: Specifically, what do you mean? I: Of all the changes that have taken place in Ogden in the last 50 years, do you see any positives? SB: Well, 50 years ago merchants figured on the 10th and 25th of every month as a very heavy day. That was a major event for a regular pay day. We had a lot of agriculture going on that we haven't got now. At one time there were 27 canning factories operating in Weber County. There are none now. North Ogden, for example, use to ship anywhere from one to three car loads of fruit, of cherries and peaches a day by rail. They don't ship any now. So, we have gone from railroad to agricultural to national defense and what goes with it. The railroad was really important 50 years ago. I: Well, do you see that as a positive or negative? SB: I don't know. I never really thought about it as good or bad. It is the way it is. When I was on the Civil Service Commission there was a guy named Harvey Kayhill on the commission. Harvey was employed by the 27 canning factories as sort of a public relations man and union representative. Incidentally, he was Knight of the 13 Order of St. Gregory; a Catholic order that they are appointed to by the Pope. It is the very lay top of the Catholic Church. In fact, I understand he was the only one we have had in Ogden. They had these 27 factories going full speed during the season, and some of them 24 hours a day. Now there is not a single one. I asked one young fruit grower why that was. He said, "Well, we can't compete. The canning factories here can't compete with other factories in California. We have a really narrow season, and our equipment and employees are idle the rest of the year. We can't compete with the ones who work all year like they do in California. I: When agriculture was so active in this area, were the crops picked and processed by migrant workers? SB: There were some, but most of them were kids. Now, we used to raise some cherries on five acres of land. We just got kids from around the neighborhood to pick the cherries. They had no problem doing them. Now Henry Hall, he owned the land before we bought it here. This land was part of his peach orchard. Henry told me he has trouble getting his fruit picked. Last year he couldn't get his fruit picked. He had to let his horses eat it and pick it. He couldn't do it. He told me here a few weeks ago that he lost $200 the day before picking cherries. He got a crew and picked cherries. He sold them for less than the $200 he had to pay to have them picked. The rest of them dropped on the ground. North Ogden was almost exclusively agricultural. Now, I think it was about the early 1950s when I was appointed city attorney in North Ogden. I served for 20 some-odd years. One time, 14 I was a city attorney for seven different cities around here, for Weber and Davis counties. I: What time frame was that, when you were city attorney for seven different cities? SB: Around the early 50s. I was also a member of the Civil Service Commission of Ogden. I was hired in Ogden because the city attorney didn't know how to do this. Under Utah law, a community incorporated committee is about – 800 people is a town. The first 800 must increase, then it can become a third-class city. North Ogden hit that point, became a town or a third class city, and the government is very much different between the two. He wasn't able to make the change, so I was hired primarily to change Riverdale and Roy and Harrisville from towns to cities. The population of North Ogden had just turned to 800 at that time. I believe Dennis Shupe, city administrator here, told me that 1,400 new homes were built in North Ogden last year. They didn't have a sewer or water works in North Ogden at that time. All up in here was orchards or brush. I: What is the population of North Ogden now? SB: I don't know. I imagine it is somewhere in the nature of 10,000 to 15,000. Dad told me when I first came out here. Dad was born and raised in North Ogden. He said there were more people in North Ogden when he was a kid than were then. That was when the town changed from a town to a city. I: Is there any one aspect of the change in Ogden that strikes you as very negative? SB: One thing that bothers me a little bit is doing away with agriculture. I don't know if that directly applies to Ogden necessarily, but everywhere. What are we going to 15 eat in two years? Now, I can remember when there were great numbers of nice farms between here and Salt Lake. You don't see very many now. When I was a kid, down by Fred Meyers down there, the China boys use to have their gardens down there. Now, when my ancestors came to Ogden, which I think was in 1848, they just took this one and you take that piece of land and settled there. Near as I can figure out, almost exactly where Fred Meyers is now. They figured out that was the best farm land there. They stayed there awhile then two brothers started fighting and went into North Ogden and stayed there. The China boys used to have gardens down there. On 13th Street, I was practicing law when they incorporated the first ditch company. Before that, we used to all pitch in and take care of the thing. I served 40 years at the first ditch company. I also incorporated eight more ditch companies. I was their attorney for a while. It came to parting our ways. I: What took your father into Ogden 13th Street? Was it employment with Ogden City? SB: He was working for the city schools at the time. In fact, at the time we moved in there, he was principal at what, at the time, was the Dee school, where the library is. He had been the principal of Washington; before that, Mound Fort and Pingree. I: He was at Mound Fort twice? SB: At Mound Fort there were four rooms. I saw a picture of it with him and the professors outside the front door. The main reason for moving to town – we didn't have automobiles then – that was 1910. It was more convenient. He and his father, who was a professional truck driver, they moved crews around town. They were 16 looking for a good place. Dad wanted to have some good soil. I don't know why we have a house here, but we don't have a good piece of soil under it. You have a lot of rocks. You can say that again. Some of them are this big. Dad saw some good soil and bought five acres on 13th Street. The four Barker brothers lived on one street. There was only four of us on the street at one time. The Popes and the Desmonds lived on the other side of the street. I: Did you and your brothers all stay in the Ogden area? SB: Well, one brother got a job shoveling coal with a potato shovel. Seven years later, he was cement superintendent. That's not bad for seven years and about 400 employees. In the process, he was sent to San Mateo, California, as the assistant superintendent down there. Also a central place in Washington, then sent back down here to be the superintendent of cement. He is dead now. When Bill got out of high school, he got a job as a meter reader for the power company and stayed with them in accounting until he retired. He worked in Salt Lake, though the last several years he has lived here. I: What about your own children? Have they settled in the Ogden area? SB: My two girls live here with us. They never married. My son lives up across the next street. I am not much of a snow thrower, but I am pretty sure I could throw a snowball from the corner of our property up to his. Not straight across, but like that, see what I mean? My other brother lives in Pleasant View. I: When you were practicing law, what aspect of law did you practice? 17 SB: General. I did spend a lot of time on collections because I was the attorney for the Credit Bureau of Ogden for 43 years. I averaged a trial a day, probably, for them. A civil trial a day about bad debts, you know. Occasionally something else; a guy would sue them for slander. Some guy probably gave them a bad credit report and sue them. Most was collection from dead beats. I: In recent years, working for the community. Did it take a toll on your health? SB: About 15 years ago, I went to the doctor for a routine visit. He told me "Either you have got to quit working the hours you are working, or retire." I was working 70 hour weeks and taking work home at night on top of that. "Furthermore," he said, "you must not have any more trials. The stress is getting to you." So, that is when I had to quit the Credit Bureau. I was also the attorney for Pineview, and North Ogden Irrigation Company and four or five other irrigation companies at the time. That is when I started time in wills, trusts and so forth. I had to quit the Credit Bureau. I was only there 43 years. I had hoped to make it 50 years. I: Well, it must have been a significant change for you, then, to move on from court cases. SB: It was an enormous change. It came to absolutely nothing but office work. I have a well-equipped office. I also have an office for copying downtown. I: Have you closed your office downtown? SB: No, but I am going to right away quick. I: Are you? Do you have plans for what you are going to do once you close your office? 18 SB: Probably sit around. There is nothing much else I can do. At my age and so forth there is nothing much else I can do, except a little traveling, which we do a lot of. I: Where do you travel? Mostly in the United States? SB: Before my son, the youngest child, was 18, we had been with our kids in all 50 states – 48 of them in our own car. They had been in planes to a lot of them, but in their own car. Maybe 10 years ago, we made the terrible mistake of going on a cruise to Alaska. I am trying to scoot Marian from cruise habit forming. We have been on approximately 20 cruises since then. Most recently, we got back last Saturday night from one. I: Where did you go? SB: Out on the Caribbean this time. We have been to Australia, Russia, Finland, England, and the Panama Canal four times. We are scheduled for another one in about two months through the Panama Canal again. I: Of all the places you have visited, is there some particular place you would choose to live in other than North Ogden? SB: I never got turned on to these other places. I like Boston. I think I have been to Boston nine times. I like San Francisco, but I don't want to live there. I don't believe I would. I like the mountains. I like nice cool evening breezes. We get bigger breezes here than you do on 13th Street. I: You said you took a cruise to Russia. SB: Yes. I: Did you fly to Russia? 19 SB: Yes. We flew to London and took a bus to Tilbury, if you know where that is. It is a suburb of London. I guess it is about like comparing Riverdale and Ogden. We got on the boat in Tilbury and went up through the Kiel Canal. Oh, that was interesting. Then went there to Finland, then over to Leningrad. It is St. Petersburg now. We came back through Denmark, Sweden, Norway, and back to Tilbury. Then we flew home. I: How long ago were you in Russia? SB: I was in Russia about 10 years ago. It may not have been quite that long. They were just beginning to loosen up. They were very strict then. We were told before we went in not to take any pictures of anyone in uniform, no matter what the uniform was. When we pulled into the harbor, there were men in uniforms on top of the buildings with binoculars, looking at the ship. We had a guide and took a tour. We found out the guide was a KGB agent. A woman, she spoke very good English, but her vocabulary was extremely limited. Somebody asked her where the restroom was; we were going to eat and take lunch. She said, "You can do all the resting you want right there, you are eating." He said, "Ma'am, I am looking for what we call a toilet. We call the toilet room the restroom." So she told us where it was. We had a meal that was unbelievable. They gave each of us assigned seats. We sat next to our own buddies. Then we just got eating good when here comes very fine orchestra music. 20 As we were leaving we listened to that 30 piece orchestra playing in the basement below. The food was not too good. We were told on the boat not to drink the water unless it was bottled water. It wasn't safe. They had bottled water, regular water, and they had wine. I didn't want the regular water. I got the bottle this far from my mouth. The taste, the odor, and gas was coming off the water. I didn't want the water. I was so damn thirsty. I hesitated about drinking wine because one of my companions was there; I might as well tell you who it was. It was Bart Wolthius. I was too darn thirsty. I reached over and got myself two or three glasses of wine. It was pretty good wine! Oh, the water was terrible. They watched us awfully close. There was one place we got off of the boat, then onto a bus. The girl said we could go in this place and take all the pictures we want. We walked back in this park. There was some Russian hero on a horse. There were some beautiful flower beds. I got some pictures of that. Then I heard this woman yelling. I looked back and saw her dragging a man and a woman, one under each arm, back to the bus. My wife said she saw them trying to cross the street, and the woman chasing after them. So, we were only allowed in certain places. They pick up your passport when you go into the country. I didn't like that, having my passport picked up. They give you a little visa. When you leave the country you get back your passport and surrender your visa. I: Did you have an occasion to ride the subway while you were in Russia? SB: No. 21 I: I have had people tell me who were in Russia over the last few years that the subways are incredibly clean and really beautiful. They had artwork in the subway areas. I guess one of the things they were most impressed with about Russia was the subway. SB: I didn't know there were subways there. I am not saying there weren't. We were on a bus. We had the escorts. They had toilets and not restrooms. They didn't like that term. They had one of these roller towels in there. It strung out across the floor, and it was dirty. It looked like it had been used in a service station. The place was filthy, absolutely filthy. The dining room was nice, other than I didn't like some of the food they had. That's all right. They have their national food and we have ours. One thing that impressed me was how clean the streets were. They have a lot of street sweepers there. They are all women, and I couldn't take a picture of them because they were wearing uniforms. They had the old brooms like witches had. They were sweeping for all they were worth, and all the natives in Russia always look so sad. We saw a big building eight or 10 stories high, with big barred doors and barred windows. My wife asked the guide what it was. She said, "That's a school. They teach comrades how to be better communists." I construed that to mean a political prison. I have been to a lot of places, but Russia was not one of my favorites by a long shot. I am glad I went there, but I never want to go back. I: Where would you want to go back to? SB: Australia. I: What particularly did you like about Australia? 22 SB: Well, that's rather like a personal matter. Dad was a missionary over there. I was just interested in going to some places he had been. Australia was a very nice place. We didn't know it when we got there, but it was their Bicentennial Celebration. Those Aussies know how to celebrate in Sydney. We got right in the middle of it. Dad spent a couple of years in Sydney and Melbourne about 95 years ago. The place was really nice. Those people treated us just like a million dollars. Those Aussie's couldn't have been nicer to us. I: [Question erased by mistake.] SB: We officed together for, oh, I don't know how long. Mr. Powell came to join us. In 1973, he went fishing with us, and drowned. Jay and I were together until Jay retired. We weren't partners, we just shared office space. Jay was a very fine fellow. He was Stake President. I am not a member of the church, and he never even tried to convert me. I: Mr. Powell was your mother's grandson? SB: That's right. Then, during that time, I was quite active in the Rotary Club. I joined the Rotary Club about '56. I think I am the only person in the Ogden club who has held every office in the club. I was secretary four years. I: A question I am particularly interested in asking you doesn't particularly deal with the Ogden area, but it has to do with some of the highly publicized cases that are going on right now. What do you think about the O.J. Simpson trial that has been going on? As you have been following the O.J. Simpson trial, as an attorney, do you have professional opinions that you would like to share? 23 SB: I have professional opinions, but I don't like to share them because there are ladies present. I think that was the biggest farce that was ever put together. I think that judge should be disbarred. I: Would you ever allow cameras in your courtroom? SB: I have never been in a courtroom with cameras. Oh, I had one when I was a prosecutor. I was in the middle of a witness and all of sudden the judge said, "Just a minute, Mr. Barker. That man back there, would you come and bring your camera up here." Some guy in the back was taking pictures. That was the only experience I have ever had in the courtroom with cameras. For example, this man Lance Ito. He made an order that they had to finish by three in the afternoon each day so that it could get on the news programs in the East at two and six o'clock. That is not how the wheels of justice should run. He is putting on a big show there. Now, we got this Susan Smith case in North Carolina. They sailed through that case. It took, what, about a week or two to do it? It was all over with and not a big show. I think Simpson is a big, big show. They write some books, sell some books and have a lot of fun. The wheels of justice haven't done a thing. They ought to be in Hollywood putting on a big show. I think that Ito should be disbarred for the way he has handled that case. I: What do you think about the attorneys? SB: I haven't watched it that close. To me, the whole thing is nauseating. A trial is about facts, and to see that justice is done. That is not the way you can find justice. It is monkey business he is doing. You can tell his attitude when he has to stop early 24 enough to make the six o'clock news in the East. He is not interested in the verdict guilty or not guilty. He is just interested in putting on a show. I think the attorneys are right in with him. Now, this one defense attorney, I forget his name. Bailey is considered one of the best criminal attorneys in the United States. I don't think court proceedings should be a show room. I: Do you think it would be handled any differently if there weren't cameras allowed in there? SB: Yes. I don't know, but I think so, because they are putting on a show with cameras there. Without a camera, there is nothing to put a show on for. Cameras are for recording something of that sort. I don't think a trial should take that long to determine what he did one evening. I: What are some of the changes that have taken place in education that you find particularly interesting? SB: Well, because my dad was a principal for some 40 years, when I finished high school I think I was on a first name basis with other principals in other city schools in the entire system. I haven't been around the school system very much in the sixty years since I got out of law school. I think you had a lot of listeners in those days that you don't have now. I think they made an attempt to teach the basics that they aren't teaching them now. It is amazing to me how many guys get through school and don't understand common, ordinary, everyday English. They don't know the meaning of words and can't read and write. Neither can I, but that is for a different reason! 25 I think in those days, when you went to school, if you got out of line you had a good chance of getting your rear-end kicked or something of the sort. But now, if you beat up a teacher or a principal, it's all right. They don't throw you in jail. A kid can go in and have his fun. I don't think the kids have the basics at all like in those days. In fact, when I was in college, they didn't even teach reading in the universities. They decided to teach reading up here at Weber for now. That doesn't speak very highly for the schools does it? I: What is your association with Weber State? SB: I am not in any particular way associated with Weber. I have never been to Weber College in a day. I am involved with five or six charitable foundations that I am chairman of. We have a fistful of money that we have to give to somebody so that it fits the 501c3 section of the Internal Revenue Code – college, university, hospital, or a charitable organization. My kids, all three of them, have degrees from Weber College. It was Weber College when they attended. I never did make it up there. Anyway, it just seemed to me to be a first class school, and that's a good place to put some dollars. I: So, you were pleased with the quality of the education? SB: Very definitely. Then I got acquainted with Paul Thompson early in the game, when he first lived here. He impressed me very favorably. He has run a first class school, and he keeps running a first class school. I guess I decided this is a good place. I am going to propose we put some money into the library at the Weber College this year. 26 Since you're asking, let me tell you something else about that honorable institution up there. I have been working the last few years on donations, trying to find where to put them. I have been in contact with a great number of so-called development officers. I think Spainhower is the best of the whole damn bunch. Another one that was real good, Patti Choate. She was good. I got a wild idea here a while back about some scholarships up at Weber. I picked up the phone and called Don and told him what I had in mind. He said "I will look into it and get back to you." How long do you think it took him to get back to me? About an hour. He got a hold of the departments, he called back, and we were in business. I like that kind of doing. You make a suggestion to Don, he'll carry through on it. I have been involved for ten years quite heavily. My experience with Don is absolutely the best one I have come across far enough. I have been associated with development at Utah State University, University of Utah, and Southern Utah University. I was kidding Paul Thompson one day. They had some kind of shin dig up there – a luncheon – two months ago. I was invited to come up to it. I can't drive anymore. They told me if I needed a ride, we will send whoever you want, a Dean, a student, or whoever you want to come and get you. I will talk to Paul Thompson about it if you want me to. Well, my wife had an accident. By the time the cops got through messing around, the party was over. I was telling Dr. Thompson about it. He said, "You bet I would have come through." He is a real nice guy. I spent a good part of 1990 in and out of the hospital. The first place I went when I got out was his 27 inauguration. I shouldn't have gone to that, but I did. He impressed me very favorably. I: Was that the first time you had met him, or did you know him? SB: No, that was the first time I ever met him. My uncle was the president of Weber at one time. I: What was his name? SB: James Earl Barker. He left there, then went to the University of Utah to become a professor of modern languages. It was the Weber Academy when he was president. His daughter, Nancy, taught when the Academy became a college. She was head of the department when she died. I: What did she teach? A. French. They spoke half a dozen different languages. They had the darndest array that you ever heard of in their home. Each day was a different language. In other words, one day French, then next day Spanish, another day Italian. That was the only language they spoke one day beside English. Then back to different languages. They did that for years. That was the only language allowed in the house that day. So the bunch of them spoke seven or eight different languages fluently. They tried to teach me French and German, but they didn't get very far. 28