Oral History Program Sergeant Dennis Ball Interviewed by Robert Ross 22 July 1980 i Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Sergeant Dennis Ball Interviewed by Robert Ross 22 July 1980 Copyright © 2012 by Weber State University, Stewart Library ii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. 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It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Ball, Dennis Sergeant an oral history by Robert Ross, 22 July 1980, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Sergeant First Class Dennis Ball. The interview was conducted on July 22, 1980, by Robert Ross, in Ogden, Utah. Ball discusses changes in the military service and his military experience. RR: This interview with Sergeant Dennis Ball of the Army Recruiting Station Ogden, Utah concerning some of his experiences and what changes that have taken place within the military service over the last twenty to twenty-five years was conducted in his office 22 July 1980 by Sergeant Ross. RR: Sergeant Ball, I am mainly concerned about the major changes that have taken place within the military service over the last twenty to twenty-five year period, but before we begin could you tell us about some of your background, like when and where were you born, what you can remember about your early childhood, your pre-school days, through high school, and also some of your military experiences? DB: Sure, I guess I could start. I was born in Idaho in 1940 and I lived there a grand total of two weeks. My Mother divorced my Father and she returned to Brigham City, Utah which was her home where she was raised and I had one older brother at this time. We were very poor living in Brigham City. I remember going to the welfare office and things like this getting butter and lard and things to live on because I think she only got something like thirty dollars a month from the welfare. As I grew older, she met another guy and married again and he had three children of his own and so he moved my mother, my older brother and myself out to a little place in Utah, called Duchesne, Utah, which is halfway between Vernal and Heber. I remember I went through my elementary school there and junior high and at age fifteen I couldn’t take it no more so I ran away 1 from home. This is when I went down through Colorado, New Mexico and Texas. I remember hoeing cotton for fifty cents a row and you look down them rows and you couldn’t see the end of them, so I said the heck with this. So I came back to Duchesne, of course all this was hitchhiking back and forth. It was through the summer months, so I was fifteen then. I got back to Duchesne I found out my mother had divorced my step dad at that time and moved back to Brigham City. So I hitchhiked back into Ogden and starting staying with my cousins here in Ogden. For some reason I just couldn’t go back home and live again, I tried it for about two months and went to Box Elder High School and went one quarter and I said school wasn’t for me because I didn’t have no money and no car. My mother didn’t have anything to give me, so I moved to Ogden then and started living with my cousins. I dropped out of school and started working at the China Temple, which is now down on the lower part of 25th street. The owner at that time is now the owner of the China Night there in Ogden. When I was working down there I was working something like 96 hours a week, washing dishes, making French fries, peeling potatoes and shredding shrimp and all that stuff. So I got off work one morning at eight o’clock and went back to my cousin’s house where I was living. In fact, the only Dad I had all my life was my Uncle. In fact, I still respect him today as a father. My cousin with three or four of his friends was there and needed a ride down to the Army Recruiting Station at the old post office. I’m just a nice guy and give them a ride down there. So I get up there and that recruiter said why don’t you just go ahead and take the test with them since you are waiting anyway, so I took the test with them, I’m sure it was just a screening test. When I got through, he played on my ego and told me how great I was and how good I had done and the next thing I knew he had me down at Fort Douglas saying “I do.” So actually when I went in the Army in a sense you could say I went on vacation because working ninety-six hours a week. So I enlisted in the Army April 3rd, 1958 at the old post office, well through Fort Douglas. 2 From there I went to Fort Carson, Colorado to basic training. I believe it was the 47th Infantry that I went to. The first day I didn’t salute an officer and got my butt chewed for that, though I think that is a common mistake with a lot of them. It is an adjustment going from civilian life into the Army. I remember a lot of things going through basic training but then I was trying to get out of everything, because the first thing you hear is don’t volunteer for anything. As an example at the time they were called Platoon Sergeants not Drill Sergeants and they would ask who has college and I remember they selected them to go out on police call to teach the rest of us non-high school graduates how to do it. So, I finally made it through basic training which was eight weeks long at that time and from there I went to Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri. Where I went to heavy equipment school learning how to operate a bulldozer and pan carryall behind it and a road grader. From there they assigned me to Fort Belvoir, Virginia. When I got to Fort Belvoir, they put me on a dozer, but I was fresh out of school and didn’t have the experience. So I worked on that for about three months and then they needed, they had a shortage of mechanics up in the motor pool, you know tinkering with cars, they ask me if I would go so I did. So I went to the motor pool as a wheel vehicle mechanic changing wheel bearings, carburetors and distributors. So it wasn’t that hard to do, so I did get some cross training there, for nine months. Then I came down on what they call a levy for Korea, by that time I had worked my way up to PFC in rank. So I said this was great, so I came on back to Ogden for a forty day vacation. You could get a thirty day vacation a year at that time and it is still the same today. So I had my own leave of forty days and twelve days travel time, so I almost thought I was a civilian again. Then I reported up to Fort Lewis, Washington. That’s the port where everybody went overseas by ship then. I remember they put me on the USS Mann going over to Korea and that was quite an experience, because I had never been on a ship before in my life. So I got to Korea and they assigned me to an Engineer Battalion over there as a heavy 3 equipment operator. I worked that for about six months and they needed a parts clerk ordering and issuing out repair parts for heavy equipment for the trucks and et cetera. So I volunteer for that, so I got into that and worked that for another seven months. I got PCSed back to Fort Bliss, Texas. Overseas duty is, I guess you could say, more relaxed and then CONUS duty, in fact most guys prefer overseas duty compared to state side assignments. So I got to Fort Bliss, I spent the first week down in Juarez, Mexico and they didn’t really appreciate that so the company commander put me on what they call a thirty day restriction, said “we are going to watch you for a while.” So the platoon sergeant finally did get me out and put me on a front loader for one week. I really didn’t care for the way I was being treated at that time, so I went to the reenlistment Sergeant because I had about three or four months left in the Army. I said “How do I get out of here?” and he said “just sign your name right here and I will have you gone in a week.” A week later I came back to Ogden on another thirty day leave en route back to Korea. Smarty me I said “I am going to beat the system, l am going right back to where I came from,” but it didn’t work, because when I got there they assigned me up in what was then the First Cavalry division. So when I reported in there they assigned me to a Combat Engineer Battalion. I reported in and they said “a dozer operator, huh?” I said “you bet.” So they said “we got three tanks down there with dozer blades on them. How would you like to work with tanks?” To make a long story short, I ended up in Armored and they were brand new, we had to unpack them, take the Cosmoline out of the gun tubes, fifty caliber machine guns, thirty caliber machine guns and everything and assemble them and put them together. Because it was something new at that time, it was the M48A2 tank. I remember I did good in it. I took the test three months after that and it was all on the job training, what we call OJT, and I passed the proficiency test and drew my fifty dollars a month pro- pay without even going to school on it. So, I spent my year there at which time I got married 4 while I was over there. The second tour, you know most guys if they are going to marry an oriental girl they will do it on their first tour over there, but I didn’t, I waited until the second. I left there and I was debating on what to do because I had a wife and a child then, so I put in to go to electronic school, field radio repair school which is a six months electronic school. I was accepted and went to that school at Fort Gordon, Georgia. When I completed that school at Fort Gordon, I got orders and I left and went to Okinawa. So I spent a little over thirty months in Okinawa at which time I had a lot of TDY to Vietnam, Thailand, Guam, Philippines and made a few emergency landings here and there on an Air Force C-130s, but I respect the C130, I think that’s one of the safest planes this country has ever had, because once its airborne it will fly with one engine, that’s what they told me I made sure there was more than one engine running though. When I got through with my tour in Okinawa I put in for what we call an ITT and I was moved back to Korea. I was assigned to an electronic shop there in the 304th Signal Battalion. So I stayed there for two years and I received orders when I left there to go to the Staff and Faculty Battalion at Fort Sill, Oklahoma. As I look back on it now I should have taken that assignment, because I think I held my career for progression back, but I didn’t want to go there. So I reenlisted, which was one of my options and I went to Anchorage, Alaska Fort Richardson. So I got up there and took over the Signal Battalions Electronic Shop. Prior to my getting there they hadn’t passed an IG or a CMMI inspection for over three years, well since the unit was activated. So I spent three years there and did real good, prior to my leaving there they had a one week Career Counselor Course come down and I said “let me go to that and just let me see just what it’s all about.” So I went up to it and came out number one in the class and again to make a long story short I requested Recruiting Duty and got it and I requested to go to Utah, Nevada or California and they gave me my second choice and they assigned me to Reno, Nevada. Well, I worked as a recruiter in Reno, Nevada for four years and I 5 was getting close to my twenty years in the Army so I said let me go back to Ogden, Utah my home, because that’s where I plan to retire. So I put my paperwork in after four years and I transferred to Ogden, Utah, where I’m presently at. I have a little over twenty-two years in the Army now and I do plan on retiring as early as next spring. RR: Sergeant Ball could you tell us some of the changes you went through within your twenty-two years’ service? DB: Sure Bob; I think out of all the changes the Army had, I believe the pay was the biggest thing. As an example when I enlisted in 1958 the pay was 78.00 dollars a month and by the time they took the laundry out of that, taxes and a few little funds that they had there wasn’t too much left to live on. Compared to four hundred and fifty dollars today a young man or lady gets enlisting into the Army. Its purposed at this time and its passed the senate so far that looks like come the first of October this physical year we will get a 11.7 pay raise so that should help the Army out a lot because I know with the economy the way it’s been and inflation. RR: Well, I can remember back in 1954, I went in and pay was sixty four dollars, you went in 58 and it was seventy eight dollars, it had gone up fourteen dollars in that four year period. Has pay been going up progressively since then? DB: You bet, Bob; They been capping our pay raises for the last five years. However, we have been getting something, a pay raise every year just like clockwork for the last five or six years and it looks like the pay is going to get a lot better in the future, however, I’m just tickled to death of how it is today compared to the way it was when I came in. RR: These pay raises you been getting now, are they considered cost of living raises. 6 DB: Well, not really, it’s to help us keep up with inflation, but they been capping to slow the economy down and naturally the government always tries to set the example which it may in part work, but I don’t think it done what they thought it would do. RR: You mentioned proficiency pay back farther in the interview, could you explain this proficiency pay program? DB: Sure; in critical skills in the Army they give you an additional allowance for pay. As an example back then it was fifty dollars naturally airborne pay, hazardous duty pay, you get extra pay for doing that job, Deep sea divers, as an example a recruiter once he has been out here over a year he gets a hundred and fifty dollars extra pay just to be a recruiter. Of course we need that because most of our living is done on the economy, because if you’re on a military post your food, your rations, your movies, bowling alleys and everything is cheaper priced than when you live on the economy. RR: Now, this seventy-eight dollars you drew when you went in that was your base pay, that’s your taxable money, right? DB: Yes, that was all taxable. RR: You also talked about a PCS and an ITT, could you explain those two things? DB: Sure, a PCS is what we call a permanent change of station. When you are completely released from one unit and Army and assigned to another one. An ITT, is called an inter-theater transfer, when you are stationed in one overseas country and you move to another country where you don’t come back to the United States or what we call CONUS. Another thing Bob, when I enlisted in 1958 they issued me a whole bunch, two pair of brown boots and I don’t know how many people is familiar with the old Ike jacket and the uniform which was also brown or OD. But about 7 six months after I came in they did away with that old Ike jacket and the old uniform and they came in with the Army Green. I remember dying them old brown boots for about two or three years after that before the brown boots got out of the system and out of the warehouses and they started issuing black boots and them brown boots you had to dye them once a month to keep the dye on them. Another thing along with that, you know when I enlisted basic training was eight weeks long where it is now currently six weeks long, well actually five and four days, but they do have a three day processing in time, getting shots, uniforms issued, records made up and casual pay et cetera. Another big change Bob, is KP (kitchen police) everyone knows is KP. When I come in I had dish water hands, you know what I done before I came in and I be darned they put me on KP again. You had to tie a towel around your bunk so they would know who to wake up, but we would switch them towels once in a while but they would still get you and make you do it. The one thing we have done today the government or the Army has hired civilian KPs to work in the kitchen and so forth. I think a lot of them are cooks and kitchen help is what it is. But we still have KP in basic training so at least a guy knows what it is if he has to do it, he does it. RR: Getting back to those uniforms, was there much problems with the people that had been in for quite a while that had to change from the ODs to the Greens. DB: Sure, you bet there was. They hated to part with that old uniform. Whenever they come out with uniform changes you have to buy your own uniforms. The only guys getting the new ones issued to them are the new guys coming in. RR: So the guys that were in already had to purchase these new uniforms. How much did they cost? DB: I can’t remember, I believe it was thirty some dollars at that time, but that was a lot of money back then. We have another thing Bob that the assignments, the length of time a person or a family has 8 to spend overseas is, I have seen it go up and down over the last twenty-two years except Korea, it’s a thirteen month tour in Korea unaccompanied and it’s still a thirteen month unaccompanied tour. However, if a person is in what we call a command slot he can spend twenty four months over there if his family is moved with him. In Europe I seen it go from a sixteen month tour to a twenty four month to thirty six months and there were times a guy had to spend four years over there. A guy unaccompanied is now back down to twenty four months. So there has been a lot of changes in the length of time a guy has to serve overseas. Another change Bob, has mainly to do with the Infantry or the Combat Arms is the roll of the foot soldier is almost gone as you know everything is mechanized now or Air Mobile, Air Assault. What I’m trying to say is the Infantry rides either in a personal carrier or they are Air Mobile and they go in choppers to the landing zone. As an example in the Army inventory there is almost ten thousand helicopters and that’s a lot of equipment. So it’s all Air Assault and in conjunction with this you know our Special Forces I don't know why, but during Vietnam they were built up and they were the first to go to Vietnam as advisors, but since we starting to close down in Vietnam they have decreased in size I don’t know the reason for this, However, at the same time our Rangers were decreased which today they have increased. So at this time the Rangers are being built up. Maybe I should explain the difference between the Special Forces and the Rangers. The Special Forces are like teachers or advisors that go in to train or assist another country, countries Army. Whereas the Rangers do it their self, they are trained and they don’t need another person’s Army to do it for them, they do it. I know back many years ago we had three Air Borne Divisions in the Army along with our Special Forces and Rangers. Today we are down to one Air Borne Division along with some Special Forces and Rangers Battalions spread out throughout the country. We do have an Air Borne, the 509th in Italy. If you want to compare that with Russia, they have eight Air borne Divisions where 9 we have one. So it could never be a man on man fight conflict if we went into something today. One thing that the Army does do for a person now when they join the Army whether it be male or female we don’t distinguish between the two, is that everyone that joins the Army has a written guarantee that must go to a school today to receive some type of training, regardless of their educational level or their test scores or whatever they have to go in training. We use to be able to enlist a guy like the draft did for a three year unassigned assignment. Where now they have to be trained in something, everyone has to go to school that joins the Army. So I think that’s good, the Recruiters don’t have to make promises no more because it’s a written guarantee when they go in. Getting back to the females, that’s probably the biggest change that the Army has made. All of our basic training and advance training locations are now coed. The men and women go through training side by side, they are even billeted in the same building, however, there is different floors so that they are separated and have their own people in charge of them. But as far as their formations and their training its identical, they go side by side, which is one of the changes that had to be made. A lot I been told is many years ago when you and I were very young that the American people didn’t make enough boys for some reason. Along with the civilian jobs and the total armed forces there’s not enough males for the next five years between the ages of fifteen and twenty to be enlisted into the Army. So the Army has a goal in the next five years to raise the women in the Army from forty-two thousand to ninety-two thousand. So you can see that a woman going into the Army today its wide open and they are not called WACs any more they are part of the Army. The Women’s Army Corp used to be separate from the regular Army, but now they are just blended in the Army. They don’t have their own band or anything like they use to. RR: Could you remember back to when you went in and the females that were in your unit as to what jobs they had? 10 DB: That’s another thing Bob, they were all mainly in finance or administrative type jobs. In fact I being a recruiter we are encouraged to try to get them to go into something that is not a traditional job. In fact we have women going in as helicopter mechanics, you name it they are doing everything Bob. In fact there is only twelve jobs out of the four hundred that the Army has that a woman can’t go into. That’s the actual Infantry or Armor foxhole type jobs. However, women are tank turret mechanics, everything. RR: They can’t hold a combat type job. DB: Right, actual Infantry and the foxhole type jobs which is only eleven or twelve they can’t go into. So, another thing they keep pushing for the educational level of the Armed Forces to go up, not just the Army, but I’m speaking for the Army is because the equipment has changed at least four or five times since I been in. In fact you could say it’s getting all computerized. If a guy don’t have the reading, writing and arithmetic that he should have learned in school than he is not going to be able to adapt to this new equipment’s and be able to function properly. So the push is on now to get higher educated people into these jobs that require more training. You know Bob, after the GI Bill ended you know for the schooling, for these guys to continue their education whether it be for their own personal goals or to better themselves in their jobs or the military occupation specialty that they have. I know the old GI Bill, where they had X thousands amount of dollars to go to school after they got out of the service. Since the draft ended that has been replaced by what we call, you know it is done with all the Armed Forces where as an example; if an individual saved fifty dollars a month, the Army would put one hundred dollars with that or two to one up to seventy five dollars and that money would be saved for them until they got out of the service to go to college or trade school or whatever. But if they didn’t go to school after they got out to use this money they could never collect the government portion of it. It can only be used for school, but they can get 11 their money back that they had put into it. Along with this while on active duty, they can attend the college of their choice or university, trade school or whatever and the Army will pay seventy five percent of their tuition. In most cases if it is military occupation related or job related they will pay a hundred percent. So there is still advancement for a person to want to continue their education, however the Army is not twisting their arm to force them to go to school they have to have the drive within themselves to do this. RR: What was the educational level of the people when you went in? Like your Platoon Sergeants that had been in during WWII. DB: Well, believe it or not most of them was high school drop outs, but that has been a major topic of discussion in the recruiting command since I been a recruiter which has been right at eight years. But they claimed that the high school dr6p outs when I dropped out of school had to drop out to help make a living or to support the family and things like this and the dropout rate today, the high school dropout is getting the reputation as a quitter. As an example; say we enlisted five high school graduates today and five non-high school graduates today. At the end of that three year enlistment three out of the five high school graduates would still be in the Army and complete his three years and only two point something of those non- high school graduates would still be in the Army. So it is costing the Americans a lot of money for taxes to train these people and if they don’t make it through their full enlistment then it does cost us a lot more money. However, on the same hand I don’t think the Army should ever close the door for a person to serve his country if they want to. Another thing Bob that we went to that is a big, big thing in the Army is they went from an authoritarian type leadership to a persuasive type leadership. Myself in recruiting, I am strictly persuasive, because they are all non-commissioned officers out here or NGOs. They were probably platoon sergeant or section sergeant or in charge of whatever they were in or whatever 12 their job was before they came on recruiting duty. I don’t feel that they did the authoritarian type leadership. In my opinion the whole Army has went to the persuasive type leadership when they started recruiting the, I don’t like the word but I guess you could say the quality market or the higher educated people with college or at least a high school diploma. there has been situations where you tell a guy why he is going to do something and what you are going to award him with when he gets through, back in the old days that sergeant gave you an order to do it and if you didn’t then he took you out behind the barn and whipped your butt. In that aspect today it is mainly persuasive there is some individual’s authoritarian type leadership that still goes on, but the bulk of the leadership today is persuasive other than authoritarian. RR: When did you see this change coming? DB: As early as ten years ago Bob, it started gradually coming over as the younger generation moved up into the key positions. In fact I seen a lot of these top ranked non-commissioned officers retire because they could not convert to a persuasive type leadership. So rather than fight it they just retired. That was back when the old say RHIP rank has its privileges. But today I think the private has just as much respect as the NCO, but again you have to earn that respect you know regardless of what rank you are. A lot of the jobs in the Army now are more technical, highly skilled and its more to position in some cases other than what rank you hold, rank signifies how much money you make each month. RR: This leadership change, what did it do to the discipline? DB: Well, when we went to the coed training and everything else and the persuasive leadership. We did lose a lot of our discipline that’s true. I have had kids that enlisted and come back from their training and they loved basic training because the discipline was there. But once they got out of 13 their training and got to their unit, the control wasn’t there, as an example, I guess you could say in the old Army that platoon sergeant would come in at night and check on his men, see how they were doing and help them out. Where today it’s like you are punching a time clock. They come to work, they get off and they don’t take charge of their men like they did in the past. Of course that was back when you know there was another change they had passes Bob, you had a pass you had to sign out and sign in. They don’t do that today a person’s ID card is their pass; they can come and go as they want. It’s like the Army don’t interfere with their personal life unless their personal interferes with them doing their job so we have went to persuasive leadership. RR: So the military has got to be like civilian life, you go to work at a certain time and you get off at a certain time and the rest of the time is yours. DB: That’s true Bob. RR: Well, in the promotions Sergeant Ball, What changes have you seen in the promotion system in the last twenty two year period. DB: Well, you know Bob, you’re just getting into a subject that I think is one of the most tossed around that the Army has ever had. One of the main ones it effects a person’s attitude, his job performance and everything. I know when I came in I came in as an E-l and some guys made PFC E-3 out of basic training which today that can’t be done. You had to be in the Army four months before you went to E-2 in 1958 and today you have to be in the Army six months before you can go to the next higher rank. Right now you have to have a certain amount of time in grade and time in service to be promoted. Years ago when you was in a unit, you had to have a slot, like say, you was an E-4 going on E5 sergeant you had to have a slot and an allocation from Department of the Army to get promoted. These promotions were controlled at Battalion, Division 14 level. In other words if they like you or you done a good job for them they would get you promoted. There was some cases you did your job, but personalities could keep you from getting promoted. So attitude played a very important part there. Then they went to a controlled list which they have now for E-7, E-8 and E-9 the top three enlisted ranks are controlled by the Department of the Army. Your records are maintained at Fort Ben Harrison, ID. They have a picture and anything that you have done, your more or less judged on paper rather than the individual he don’t really know he just knows your records, so if a person’s records aren’t brought up to date or something don’t get to them, then that individual is hurt promotion wise. At the unit level the officers or your bosses and the non-commissioned officers over you the only way they can make you look good now is to give you letters to put in your file or what we call EER, its and enlisted efficiency report where you are graded on how you do your job and that’s the only thing the promotion board has to judge a guy on and promote him. They are controlled at Department of the Army level, as an example here in recruiting, a guy going up to E-6 are controlled by a promotion board in San Francisco, CA. They have to fly out there and go before a board, which they get so many points, what they call a cut off score. If the Army has, you know, say they are going to promote four hundred guys to E-5 in one month. They're not looking at an E-5 in Utah or an E-5 in Europe. All that are in that MOS they are Judge Army wide by that MOS and once a guy has a certain amount of time in service and time in grade. You get, I believe it’s a hundred points for education, if a person has went out and improved himself through civilian education, he gets points for this, he gets points for military education. In other words a person that continues to improve his self will be promoted over someone that is just content to go from day to day and get what he can get out of the Army instead of what the Army can get out of him. 15 RR: Did you notice this when you went in as a high school drop out that the high school graduate and other educated people were getting promoted over you. DB: Not really Bob, they didn’t. You know I was judged at a, of course up to say E-5 or E-6. It was more or less judged by the people that I worked for if I did a good job for them. You know naturally personality was involved when someone over you had the authority to promote you or not. But I was more or less judged for myself and my ability in what I performed. My education level wasn’t so important. But today in promotions, if you want to, say go all the way up to First Sergeant E-8 or Sergeant Major E-9 and you don’t have any college today it’s almost impossible you might as well just go ahead and retire ‘cause you will never make it. Do you have any more on the promotions? RR: You mentioned E-7, E-8 and E-9s, what about the lower ranks are they controlled by the unit, like the E-3, E-4 and E-5s. DB: Well they are controlled by division or battalion level, you know they are controlled, but they are still controlled array wide by MDS, the Army can only have so many E-4s, E-5s in that field at one time and they will wave that cut off score, they have promotion list, everyone is on a list somewhere and they know by that list if they lower the score down twenty points how many will be promoted or selected, so it is controlled by a cut off score or on the points and they do have these list which everything like I told you before is in computers now so it’s not that hard to keep up with. Another thing Bob, you know when I was overseas, Well the majority of my career has been overseas other than recruiting duty, but you know they had slot machines in the clubs, you know just like Nevada and they took them out after the Vietnam era and here recently they just put them back in, which is back to the attitude problem Bob it raises moral, you know it’s just a benefit that a guy has for serving his country in an overseas area. Which I feel, I like it myself. Another thing back on the training end of it Bob is I think we are losing, we are pushing training but yet we are losing it. We 16 have some guys; say like the six months electronic school that I went through. If I went through that school today and its self-paced and I graduated second in the class. So I would have gotten through that six months school in about four or four and a half months. I think this is good in many ways it lets a guy get through the school quicker once he accomplishes in each section of the test et cetera, but then again I don’t think he is getting all the material that he should be getting. He has to go to the field and learn a lot of it on his own or through practical experience. But all of our schools now are self-paced training, get through quicker which in turn saves the Army or the Government money. RR: In other words if a guy takes a test that is in computer operators and he takes a test and the school is six months long, he can take test and graduate in four months. DB: It is conceivable; he can complete it in four months. One example I had a girl that enlisted for Air Traffic Control School and you know that is a lot of mental pressure there and she went to about four weeks of it and she couldn’t cut it she volunteered to get out of it. They gave her different choices that she could go into different schools and she selected the supply field, supply clerk. She went to this school, which is normally a six and a half week school. She graduated in ten days. But she was sharp. She had to be sharp and smart in order to qualify for Air Traffic Control School. So training time is drastically cut. Another problem Bob, I think is a major problem in the Army is when I enlisted there was a lot of guys that drink and things like this. There wasn’t really a drug problem at that time, because drugs even in the civilian world wasn’t that important. But I know the Armed Forces have had to go to what they call a drug and alcohol rehabilitation education and they have people that are trained as social work to work with these guys that get hung up on drugs or alcohol. I know when I came in it was just an alcohol problem where now the drugs over rule the alcohol end of it and drugs are getting more attention than the alcohol. 17 RR: Do you think this alcohol and drug problem is because of too much free time or attitude or discipline problem. DB: Well, it could be Bob, but you know I work out here now in the civilian world and I see the same thing in civilian life. Parents have come to me and said, there’s drugs in the Army, well there is drugs out here on the street. A person can do what they want to do. But I feel the Army does control the alcohol and drug problem. There have been many many men discharged because of drugs from all the branches of the Armed Forces, but the Army does try to get them back on the right track and if they do, they don’t discharge them, they do keep them in the service. If they can rehabilitate them. But a lot of them are on drugs when they join the service, however, they are not supposed to, but you know the world they do it, they get in. RR: Is this drug problem mainly in the lower ranking people. DB: I think for the most part it is. But there are, I have heard of situations, read and seen where there a lot of non-commissioned officers involved in drugs, because I have to put it the younger generation moving up into the key slots or positions where they are in control. While there is some at a higher level, but not at the level that there is in the lower ranks. Well, another big change in the Army Bob is the living conditions. When I joined the Army they had bay type living which we still have in basic training. But it was all bay type; you know bunks one on top of the other side by side just big bays of them. Today when they complete their training there is normally two or three guys assigned to a room. They have their key; you know they can lock their room up. It’s checked once a week Bob, for cleanliness but you know they can paint one wall red, one white and one blue if they want to. They can put carpet on the floor, the Army does give them a desk and a lamp to keep in there, they can put their color TV or they can put drapes on the wall. So it has really 18 changed. Their Stereotype, etc. In fact I went on a tour to Fort Lewis here a few years back and I ask one Company Commander, there was two privates to a room and I said if that private wanted to turn that bed in to the supply room and go buy his own down town and put in here, could he do it. He said sure I don’t see why not. So living conditions have changed. As an example our Mess Halls have been changed to Dining Facilities. They have consolidated a lot of them. Most of them you go into now, you can go one way and as an example you will have a short order line where you can order a hot dog or a hamburger or you can go to the right side and you will get a full course meal whatever is prepared and on the menu for that day. They have coke machines and things like this, in the Dining Facilities. One drawback I think is they are all consolidated, because when I enlisted every company had their own cooks, their own people and where that company went the people went with them. I guess that is back to the mechanized part of it you know we are all consolidated now. If a company went out they would take cooks from this consolidated center that would accompany them to the field or where ever they went to. RR: Getting back to the living conditions, I remember when I went in we had the GI parties and inspections every Saturday. How is this handled now? DB: You are right Bob that has been a big change in the different type of leadership. You are right when I came in and when you came in about the same time or a little bit later than you. Every Friday night they would have a GI party and it was Mandatory there was no getting out of it. They had like a muster formation and if you wasn’t there you was AWOL. You cleaned where ever you lived and people would take money out of their own packet and go buy paste wax to put down on them floors. They would buff them with towels or whatever they had to do. Because they would actually come in with white gloves on and inspect. If they found dust, you did it again and you didn’t go to bed until that place passed inspection. It was mandatory every Saturday morning was 19 inspection where the Company commander or the battalion commander would come through and inspect. These inspections you know, in other words the only day of the week you might be off would be Sunday and possible Saturday afternoon if you passed inspection if you didn’t pass inspection than you didn’t get Saturday afternoon off. Another thing along with that Bob is the physical training within the Army. When I went in we run we did what we call the daily dozen and naturally that is another uniform change was the Bermuda shorts, they were a joke really see all them guys out there with their hairy legs showing, but they did away with them a few years after I was in. But the physical training was vigorous when I went in and through the years they drifted away from it and here within the last three years they are coming back to it. As an example every one assigned to Europe has to run two miles twice a year and that is part of their test, what they call the physical training test "which was once a year is now twice a year. So they are pushing the physical training to keep a man in better shape whether it be overweight or underweight or just to keep in physical condition. I guess you could say we are Array property you know and they’re trying to keep us in good shape. RR: Sergeant Ball what are the main changes that you have seen taken place within your time in the service. DB: Well, recapping what I said earlier Bob, I think the biggest change to me is pay along with the increased women enlistments that we are striving for today, promotions, assignments, the enlistment policy, bonuses and written guarantees et cetera. Even though I am fixing to retire I honestly believe that a two, three or four year enlistment into the Army would be good and I would recommend it for my sons I have two of them I have one living on a mission, I’m from Utah too I am in the same boat. I have one son in junior high school that is taking all these classes geared toward going to Air Traffic Control in the Army. So I do have a son that is going in. I do run across 20 some parents that the service was good enough for them, but not good enough for their son or daughter, which I feel they are wrong, but that is my own opinion because I been in the Army for over twenty two years, even with all the changes it’s been good to me and I am proud to be a member of the Armed Forces. RR: Sergeant Ball, I thank you very much for this interview, this tape will be on file at the Weber State College Library and it will be made available to anyone that wants to draw it out and use it. DB: Thank you Bob. 21