Oral History Program Earl Samuel Paul Interviewed by Mack S. Taft circa 1960s Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Earl Samuel Paul Interviewed by Mack S. Taft circa 1960s Copyright © 2016 by Weber State University, Stewart Library iii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description The Great Depression in Weber County, Utah, is an Oral History Project by Mack S. Taft for completion of his Master’s Thesis at Utah State University during the summer of 1969. The forty-five interviews address the Great Depression through the eyes of individuals in several different occupations including: Bankers, Laborers, Railroad Workers, Attorneys, Farmers, Educators, Businessmen, Community and Church Leaders, Housewives, Children and Physicians. All of these individuals lived in Weber County from 1929 to 1941. The interviews were based on what they remembered about the depression, how they felt about those events and how it affected their life then and now. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Paul, Earl Samuel, an oral history by Mack S. Taft, circa 1960s, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. 1 Abstract: This is an oral history interview with Earl Samuel Paul. Mr. Paul discusses the building industry during the Depression and his time as bishop of the LDS Ogden Seventeenth Ward. He also discusses time spent on the Northern Utah Region Bishop’s Council and in Samoa on behalf of the LDS Church. The PWA and CCC programs are also mentioned. The interviewer is Mack Taft. MT: Bishop Paul, give me your full name for my recording, please. EP: Earl Samuel Paul. MT: Now, what were you doing by way of a vocation and so forth, during the Depression years, 1929 to 1939? EP: I was a general contractor. MT: What was the situation in the contracting business through those years? EP: It was rather slow. MT: What type of building or contracting did you do, mostly? EP: I contracted in homes, schools, churches, business houses, and anything I could get to do. MT: Were materials difficult to get at that time, or what was the problem? EP: We didn’t have very many problems in that line. At the time, materials were quite readily… MT: What were the major problems that you faced in your business at that time? 2 EP: Trying to find work to do. MT: Getting something that someone could pay for. EP: Yes. Building trade was down a great deal, but I had to work long hours to get enough work to take care of my family and take care of my work as bishop and other work I had to do. MT: Did you build any large buildings through that period of time that you remember? EP: No – well, yes. I built some meetinghouses. In addition to meetinghouses, I built I think the mission home to the hospital at that time. Then I did a lot of work otherwise. I had a lot of fire - I think that during that particular time I must have had about eighty percent of the fire jobs in Ogden. MT: Fire insurance? EP: The fire insurance agency would come and have me give an estimate on it, and tell me to go ahead and do it. They had confidence in me. MT: That’s great. EP: I did a great deal of that kind of work in that particular time. MT: When you were married, Mr. Paul? EP: April the 2nd, 1920. MT: 1920. How many children did you have during the Depression years? How large was your family then? 3 EP: During that time, we had five children. MT: What problems did the children face with keeping good jobs? EP: I think they were very well taken care of. I think Mrs. Paul took care of them, did a good job. MT: Okay, good. I’m sure she would. EP: During that time, our youngest child was born, in March 1932. MT: That’s about as Depression as you can get, was 1932. That’s considered by many people the bottom part of the peak, or the bottom part of the dip. EP: I was called to be the Bishop on the 24th of November, 1932, she was born in March. MT: That leads us to the next part of the discussion I’d like to pursue for a little while. What problems did your ward members face that you were able to help them with somewhat in those hard times? EP: I was called to be the bishop of the Seventeenth Ward. There were about 1500 members of the ward. We called a meeting of the unemployed, and we filled the meetinghouse. We organized under the Elder’s Quorum President, Thomas Young, President of the Elder’s Quorum at the time, and a man by the name of Patterson. We put him as work director. We went out and cut timber - on the west side of the Seventeenth Ward there’s a lot 65 feet wide by 255 feet long, and we had that piled high with wood. We rigged up a cross-cut saw from an old Ford car, and cut that all up into cord length, so we had plenty of fuel to keep 4 ourselves warm for the next winter. We went into the field and contracted harvesting fruits and everything like that on share, so they had all the fruit and everything like that they needed. We pretty well fixed for fast offerings. At that time they didn’t have to take fast offerings in to the Presiding Bishopric, so we had the money for fast offerings, which we used to take care of rent and lights and things like that, that were necessary for these families. We contracted harvesting beets, because that was a cash contract, and that helped them with the money proposition. You’d be surprised how people change when they get down and out. They’ve been used to having something nice, and then they get out of work. Not of their own fault or anything like that, and they don’t have the money they need to take care of themselves; they become very careless in their habits and the way they look and the way they take care of their home. Through this work that we had that summer and that fall, it just kind of transformed these people, made them feel like they were somebody. We had wonderful pictures and write-ups in church magazines at that time. The city was very kind to us; they loaned the truck for us to haul the wood down here, and they helped us out that way. We grossed a little bit; we didn’t ask the presiding brethren for any money to help us take care of these families while – we had them taken care of very well until the government took over and brought work for these people. Of course, that helped them a great deal. So during that particular time, of course, I had to spend a great deal of time away from my daily work to help do these things, but it was one of those 5 grand experiences of our lives that we had the opportunity to do that. I don’t think every young man that’s called to be a bishop has the problems we in particular had. Down in Sullivan Hollow, it’s a beautiful down there now; at that time it was a very – well, the people down there were quite poor, and a lot of them were out of work. Through this organization and the work that we did, we carried on with work until the Church organized the welfare program, and then they chose me as chairman of the Bishop’s Council of the Northern Utah Region at the time, and I think there were six stakes then. I was in that position for nearly ten years, and during that time, I was Co-Chairman with President Guy, Samuel Guy. The purchase was a property out on Washington Avenue where the Deseret Industries is now. Re-modeled two homes into an office and a store. We built a canning plant in addition to the building already on the place where we stored the stuff. Built a large root cellar. Before we grew some more, we had to do something else to provide a larger place for the welfare place, and we’d heard that Utah and Idaho Railroads were going to auction off a property down on 17th Street. We went to Salt Lake and got permission to offer as high as $50,000 to purchase this property. We went to the auction, and the auctioneer said from the beginning, “I will not accept anything less than $75,000 for the property.” Nobody offered any – we didn’t have any right to offer him more than $50,000; nobody offered a bid on it, so he said, “We’ll re-open this up at 4 o’clock this afternoon.” So I got in the car and went to Salt Lake, to find Brother Ryberg. He’s in charge of it, he’s the one who got permission to give the $50,000, and he couldn’t be 6 found. I couldn’t find him anywhere. So I went over to the Church Office Building, and inquired of President Clark. The secretary said, “President Clark’s resting, and he’s told me not to disturb him until four o’clock.” I told him I had to see him before four o’clock, and that I’d sit there and wait for him, and he’d wake up and see me before four o’clock. So about a quarter to four, he come out and said, “President Clark will see you now.” So I told him what we was up against, and what we wanted; the building was worth $285,000 if it was worth anything; that’s an engineer’s estimate of them. He called Brother Lee and tried to get Brother Rybert and couldn’t get him. Called Brother Lee and Brother Morril down and talked to them, and about five minutes to four, President Maw, I left him here to do the bidding in case we could do the bidding. He called and wanted to know what the decision was, so I turned to President Clark and said, “This is President Maw on the phone, and he has to know right now.” And he suggested we put a bid in for $75,000, and $2,500 for the railroad track that runs into the place from 22nd Street. He turned to Brother Lee and said, “Brethren, If we can get $275,000 worth of property for $75,000, isn’t that a pretty good deal?” And they said yes, so he authorized us to bid the $75,000 and $2,500 for the railroad track, and we did, and they accepted our bid. So we went down there and remodeled the building and then remodeled the building to front the eight stakes in Weber county, then we remodeled the large building where they repaired the cars and things like that. They made a large storage place; in that particular building we had a large canning plant, and it had the capacity of 14,000 cans a day. It had a creamery, and had a large assembly room, where the members of the Northern 7 Utah Region Council met once a month. We had several offices, and it just turned out to be a wonderful thing. At the present time, the other building, that’s 355 feet long, the General Authorities are using for a storage place. They also had a mattress factory there, and a broom factory. We built another root cellar, which is about 200 feet long by 30 or 40 feet wide, with a drive-in, where they can drive the truck right in and unload the produce. I would estimate the time that I was put in as Chairman of the Northern Utah Region that there were about – the Region’s assets were probably worth about $100,000, and when I was called to go to Provo on a mission, why, they had over $700,000 worth of property in the Northern Utah Region. Just a wonderful experience – it fulfilled the patriarchal blessing which I had, which said the Lord would bless me with houses and lands and the money thereof as I would request that the brethren would use this money to take care of the poor and the needy and to build up the kingdom, and to help to build temples and so forth. MT: That’s fabulous. EP: Turned out to be a wonderful blessing, and I can bear testimony that it’s a grand experience. MT: After the PWA came in, did you still continue this type of project, of going out into the fields and so forth, or did it somewhat discontinue that? EP: It discontinued somewhat, but we continued for those who wished; we had quite a lot of people to take care of during that time. There’s another thing I’d like to 8 mention that might be of interest to somebody. On investigation of those who had to have maintenance given to them during the Depression years, we found that only about four percent of them said they were full tithepayers. None tithepayers, mostly, which I think proves the blessings of the Lord when He promises that if we pay our tithing and things like that, the Lord will bless you and see that you have the means to take care of things. Very interesting, we had Brother Dean, who was coordinator down to the Welfare Center, making investigations to see what he could find pertaining to that. I think those things are interesting and very vital to spiritual lives of people. Lester Patterson worked for the cement company, and he got out of work, and he said that the year that he spent in this church work was the best year of his life. Goes to show that when an individual put his heart and soul in the work of the Lord and the church, there’s much joy and satisfaction in the things that we do. MT: I should say. When did you go to Samoa? EP: I went to Samoa in 1951. MT: And you were over there how long? EP: We were there not quite three years. MT: You were President of the mission at that time over there? EP: We came home, and the Church was trying to buy three hundred acres of land on the island of Tutuila. Several of the mission presidents had tried to purchase this land, and while I was there I made an investigation and found out the way I 9 thought this land should be bought. I had communicated this through letters to the General Authorities of the Church, and they didn’t seem to pay much attention to it. When I came home and talked to President McKay, he was quite interested in it, and after we’d been home about three months, he called me and asked me to come down. They wanted to talk to me. I had written a letter to him that morning, telling him that if he wanted to buy that land down there he’d better get busy on it, because the old lady that owned the land was getting pretty old and he may not be able to get the land. I was just going to post the letter, just went out the door to post the letter when the phone rang, and it was Sister Middlemitch asking me to come down and see President McKay. They brought me home because they thought that I was ill and should be released to come home. Brother – Bishop Gater came down there, and I got out of a sick bed to go to a meeting. So he came home and told the General Authorities that they’d better bring me home, or they might bring me home in a coffin. Well, I was better, and I was out working on a meetinghouse – we got permission to build fifteen chapels while we were down there. We finished a twenty-four room schoolhouse while we were there, so things were just going nicely, and we were released to come home. Well, President McKay asked me if my health was good enough to go back to buy this land. And I told him my health was good enough to stay there, if he wanted me to. Anyway, he called Sister Paul and me back to Samoa to buy this land, and it took four months to do it. It was quite a process. We expected to be dealing with Governor Ewing, who told us before we left that he was going to 10 do all he could to help us buy this land, but when we got to Fiji, he was on his way home; he’d been released. They’d put in Governor Judd from Hawaii, and he was ill and on his way home, so I didn’t know who I was going to deal with when I got there. But when we got to American Samoa, Les Graney from Ogden, Utah was acting Governor; he was an LDS man. So he says, I don’t know what to do. He says, “Word’s scattered around here that you timed to return to Samoa when he was governor so you could buy the land.” I said, “Well, I’ll tell you what to do. Send the deed that we made out, and the contract, to the Department of the Interior, and let them decide.” He said, “All right.” So I wrote a letter, and then I wrote a long description of the law down there, and what I found out about the property. After four months, they sent a telegraph back that the premise on which I bought the land was reasonable, but didn’t have anything to go by, and thought it was legal. So the Lieutenant Governor and judge met together and called me in, and told me to go ahead, so I wired President McKay on his birthday, on the 8th of September, told him the mission was completed, to send the money down to buy the property. Now if I’d stayed in Samoa four years, and they hadn’t’ve bought that property, they wouldn’t have a high school on there now, that will serve the people from generation to generation. They’ve got homes for the school teachers, and a lovely chapel. On this three hundred acres they have land to let each family that brings their children there to educate, where they can have their 11 gardens and raise their food to eat and things like that, which is a great lesson to them. MT: Now, on the Depression years, you say there were large numbers of people who were unemployed in your ward and so forth. What were people earning who were working on your jobs and so forth? Do you recall that? EP: Well, of course the wages weren’t anything like they are now, but I think the carpentry work was about a dollar and a half an hour, something like that. The labor was a dollar an hour, when you could get work. Now, I mentioned that we called the unemployed into the meetinghouse to talk to them, tell them what we wanted to do and how we intended to do it. I suggested to them that when they harvest the fruit and the vegetables, things like that, that they separate it. Take the first-class fruit and sell it to get their cash to take care of themselves, and put up the other for themselves. Well, two of the brethren jumped up and said, “Well, you’re not talking to us. The first-class fruit and the best for you, why that’s the best for us too. We’re not that run-down to accept anything like that.” I said, “Well, I’m just telling you what I’ve done in my life when I’ve had the same proposition, which I have had many times.” These two walked out. They never came back to church. I don’t know what they did. Other people were so grateful. You can’t imagine how affected their spirituality was, their feeling and attitude toward life, having somebody interested enough in them to help them get work and provide the necessities of life for them. We didn’t stop them doing something. They did their own work, they had to go out and do their work. We did 12 furnish some cash for them, for lights and rent and stuff like that that they couldn’t earn. MT: Who was the stake president at that time? Do you recall? EP: William Reeder. MT: Oh, yes. I remember Brother Reeder. EP: Well, at the time that I was put in as bishop, Robert I. Burton was president of the stake, and he was president of the stake I suppose about six years – no, wasn’t that long, because President Reeder was put in as the first Chairman of the Northern Utah Region, and that was 1936. MT: Who were some of the other bishops at that time that you recall? EP: Well, there was Bishop Walt Green, you mentioned Bishop Wilson… I apologize, if I had just a few minutes… MT: That’s fine, it’s just off the cuff, and that’s great. Now, let’s see. Raymond Wright became bishop a little later on in the First Ward; I’ve interviewed Raymond. Are there any other things you can recall which might show the condition at the time and so forth? Very similar to what you’ve already done, are there any other experiences that you recall that might indicate the spirit of that time, the economy or spirituality throughout the ward or anything along that line. EP: Well, the condition of the ward – we had, I think, a very spiritual ward. We’d have people talk about the happy times they had in the Seventeenth Ward during that time. We established, during that time, the first recreational budget system of the 13 Church, where we had each family pay twelve dollars a year – they could pay monthly – and they were entitled to all the dances and parties and everything within the ward; it took care of everything except the dime funds for Sunday School and the membership for Relief Society and anything like that. Sunday School, I mean, and Primary. It helped the children learn to give to the Church. By having a dime fund for the Primary and the Sunday School, it started them to think along that line. Every other part, they had a ticket that they could attend any ward function. There was never anybody selling tickets after that in our ward meetinghouse. We got so tired of people standing at the door, selling tickets to the people coming in. We didn’t think that added to the spirituality of a meeting; it had a tendency to keep people from coming. So we organized that, and Brother Kirkham and Brother Goddard came up and held a meeting pertaining – they’d heard about this, and held a meeting with us, and this got around; we got letters from all over the Church pertaining to this system that we had. We gave them the choice of a Church magazine also, with their twelve dollars. The Seventeenth Ward has carried that on until after Bishop Farr - not too many years ago. That twelve dollars took care of their budget and their recreation and everything. MT: What types of entertainment did you provide on your budget ticket? EP: All the dances, and theaters and things like that. Ward drama, everything that we put on like that was in the budget. We didn’t have anything – one other things, we 14 had a function of missionaries going to the theater with them. We had people help the missionaries. MT: Well, that’s a tremendous experience, isn’t it. EP: Sure was. MT: I can’t think of anything really that we haven’t covered that I think is important, except if there’s something more that you think of. You seem to be coming up with better answers than I can give you questions right now. EP: Well, on this budget proposition we called a meeting of our organizations. Talked to them, and decided to do this. So we sent them out in pairs to sell the budget. The first year was a little more trouble selling it, you know? But after it had been working for a year or so, all we had to do was send out the notice first of the year, and the people come right through all the time, and we didn’t have to send anybody out to sell them. Just sold itself. MT: Very good. Looking back now, let’s take another look at your business here. I’m jumping all around; what were some of the major financial problems that you had in business at that time? EP: Well. We had – prior to that time we had kind of a hard time. We used to go out in the evenings, maybe think I didn’t have time, but I did. I had to go out and sell insulation and weather stripping and stuff like that in the evenings, and install it in the daytime to keep the wolf from our door for quite some time. In 1929, of course, we were starting to get on top. We had some nice jobs and things were 15 going pretty nicely So we were just able to be solvent all the way through. But the people did have a lot of problems during that time. A lot of them went without the necessities of life, and had – if the church hadn’t taken it over, or the PWA, why, they would have had a lot of trouble. MT: Would you evaluate for us the – looking back now, at the government programs that were instituted at that time, the PWA and the CCC and other programs there, would you give me just a small, short evaluation of those? EP: I think it saved the day as far as the people who were out of work were concerned. It gave a small contractor and the large contractor – they built schools and things under that program. Did a lot of house remodeling and things like that they had people bid on. When they had a large job, sometimes they’d bid part of it so that the smaller contractors perhaps could have something to do, besides the large contractors. In the construction of Ogden High School, the foundation was let first, and then the building. Several schools were let that way, the foundation was let, and the other part of the building was let to some other contractor, or the same contractor if he happened to be the low bidder. But they did a wonderful thing, the government did a wonderful thing in establishing work where people could work for what they had to have, and accepting the dough or something like a lot of them are doing now, they wait for the government check all the time. MT: Do you recall any of your young men going in to the CCC program? 16 EP: Not too many. There weren’t too many in that program anyway, if you take the percentage of young people. MT: I’m sitting here thinking and wondering what those people were doing who didn’t have a fine bishop like you to help organize a program where they could go out and go to work. This must have been a chaotic time for some of those people. EP: Well, most of the bishops around here didn’t have the proposition we had. MT: Yes, I’ve found that. Now, Raymond Wright, of course he came a little later. They did gleaning and worked in the field too, but he’s the only one, I think, that I’ve interviewed that has followed a program like you’ve mentioned here. EP: Of course, if you want something else beside that, I can tell you a story that’s quite interesting. MT: Great. Go ahead. EP: The government had two hundred thousand parkas – take the fur off the hoods and send to Korea. Since the fur got water on it over there, it wasn’t suitable for that climate. The government gave the Ogden Depot out here twenty days to process those two hundred thousand parkas, and they didn’t know how they were going to get it done. They get enough machines to resew them after, they had to be resewn, and they had a very difficult time. So a cousin of mine was working out there, and he suggested to them that they contact me when I was Chairman of the Northern Utah Region, and see if we couldn’t help them out. So they contacted us, and I called the Presidents here in this location together, and 17 we decided we’d help them. We took a contract to process 120,000 of these parkas. It was supposed to be kept a secret. People were coming to work on them in the wards are supposed to keep it a secret, not to tell anybody what they were doing. So between eight stakes, we had them take the parkas on Wednesday, the eight stakes had them divided out per capita for eight stakes. They gave us fifteen days to process them, but they urged us to get them done quicker if possible. We got our parkas on Wednesday afternoon at three o’clock, and we had a crew of people there ready to go to work. By Friday night, all the stakes but two were completed, and one stake only had one more left, and that was the Mount Ogden Stake, the one I presided over. Weber Stake had about a fourth of theirs done. They didn’t know how they was going to do it, so I suggested to them that they call the High Council in each one of the wards, have them call some people, and others call, and others call. They did their other three-quarters in just a little over a day, showing that through the proper organization, they can really put things over in the Church. Well, we damaged only a very few, and some of these parkas are sewn seven times around, and you had to – we went to all the stores in Ogden and Brigham City and around to buy razor blades, enough to – they’d ask the question, what are you doing with all the razor blades? Oh, just a welfare project. There must have been at least 6,000 people worked on this project, and a year later, they sent a Major General – I believe a General Holdam – out here to express their appreciation to us for the work we did in helping. There was an article written in the Standard Examiner which said there was a major secret kept 18 for one year. That secret didn’t get out of the hands of all these people. They kept the secret for one year. We were in Samoa at the time, and the postman delivered the message to me. I’m the one who took the contract, so of course I was in charge of it. So they sent the clipping down to Samoa, and we had it published in the Samoan paper down there. MT: That’s great. Now, can you think of benefits – when you think of the Depression, or most people think of the Depression as a time of real bitterness and hard times and so forth. What benefits did you and the people in your ward receive from the Depression? EP: I think our people received the same benefits as the pioneers did when they came to Utah. When they didn’t have anything, they’d build together and work together. When people are down and out that way, and haven’t the means of taking care of themselves, and others have the means to take care and help them, and they work together, I think it brings a unity in any organization. In the church, I think it was a great pioneer experience for them. I think was a spiritual uplifting of the people in the ward. I think if you go and ask any member of the ward that’s active, that you could search them out, you would find that I’m telling you the truth. They became more spiritual, more happy, with a greater understanding of what life is for and why we’re here. MT: That’s wonderful. Do you think of any attitudes that people have today, who lived through the Depression, that are different from those people who didn’t have that experience? 19 EP: Well, I think the general run of them, I don’t think they’d agree with what the government is doing for people at the present time. You ask for experience; I have men that actually quit work in my contracting business, saying that they only wanted to work here and there, just hard enough to get their government check. Get out of work and get their government check for a while, then maybe take a little job, then return to their government check again. They got enough to take care of themselves without working, didn’t have to work. MT: That’s been in more recent years? EP: Yes. Depression time, they had to get out and do something. I said this work that we had, they didn’t get all this provision that we provided for them for not doing something themselves; they had to do something. Took a lot of work to cut up all that wood we had for them. MT: I’ll say. EP: I think Harold B. Lee, President Lee, had the same condition in his stake down in Salt Lake City as we had in our ward. He came up in our territory and took many contracts harvesting things for his people. He had the same kind of a program that we had, only his was a stake program, and I guess more extensive. We had to call on the Church a great deal for help. But I know families in the ward that never come to church at all, and the call for them to come to the meeting of the unemployed, they came, and after the experience they had, they became active in the Church. 20 MT: Somewhat along the line of the Book of Mormon times – people when they prospered kind of forgot the Lord, and then as difficulties came they turned back to the Lord. I’m sure that… EP: We started another project at that time on our ward teaching. We called them gospel mission groups. We had gospel messengers and general messengers. We had the Aaronic Priesthood do the ward teaching to the active members of the church, and those who were in positions like Sunday superintendencies and mutuals and men who were in Presidencies, and things like that, of Quorums, they were assigned to the inactive people of the Church. It brought back a lot of inactivity. You weren’t to just visit once a month, like the regular ward teaching. They were to visit them more than once a month, and to keep track we had the report each week, the number of visits they made and the time they spent with the people. One man who was – well, his family was practically apostate, from Wyoming, he said that his folks got their feelings hurt and they quit the Church, or didn’t do anything in the Church. But he came here and moved into our ward, and one of these gospel messengers took him in hand. When he died, he left in his will, a thousand dollars for the foreign missionary work. MT: Well, I’m sure there are great things that can happen in the Church if we do move forward and do the things that ought to be done. EP: In the Seventeenth Ward, also, the Elder’s Quorum took over the payment of the missionaries for the month of December. We figured that with the taxes, it was very difficult for the parents of missionaries out in the field to pay the December 21 allowance due the missionaries, so we just told the parents that the Elder’s Quorum would take care of them for the month of December, and it helped a great deal. It gave the Elder’s Quorum something to do to, to be involved in missionary work. MT: What about taxes during that period of time? Did many of your people have a difficult time getting the money to pay their taxes? EP: Oh, a lot of them had a difficult time. I suppose there was a lot of property sold for taxes during that time. I’m sure there was. I recollect one gentleman who left his son rich on tax property that he bought. Some people, they had money to buy tax property. They’d pay the taxes a few years, then got a deed to it. It was difficult just like it was in pioneer days. I think sometimes these things are a benefit to people. MT: I’m sure they are. If the proper leadership is there to direct the cause, I’m sure that that’s right. EP: If they’re just left for themselves, then they get very disgruntled, and are very dissatisfied, and they’re not good citizens and they’re not good members of the Church. MT: What kind of problems did Sister Paul have taking care of those five children? EP: All the problems a father and mother has. MT: A father and a mother has. That’s well put. Well, that’s very interesting. Bishop, I surely appreciate what you’ve done, and I appreciate the opportunity of recording 22 some of these experiences down here. I assure you I’m very grateful to you for giving me the time that you have on this. EP: Well, I want to tell you I’m very humbled in what I’ve said, and not in the way of trying to build up anything for myself. It’s just something that - proposition that came while I was bishop, something that I had to do, and I was very happy to do it. The Lord blessed us and our family very abundantly while we were doing it; not so much in the financial way, but we did have plenty to take care of our family, and we didn’t have to go into debt. The Lord certainly blessed us, I think in fulfilling my patriarchal blessing to the very letter. MT: That’s wonderful.