Oral History Program Clarence Werner Interviewed by Mary Werner 29 June 1973 i Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Clarence Werner Interviewed by Mary Werner 29 June 1973 Copyright © 2014 by Weber State University, Stewart Library ii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. 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It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Werner, Clarence, an oral history by Mary Werner, 29 June 1973, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Clarence Werner. The interview was conducted on June 29, 1973, by Mary Werner in Mr. Werner’s home in Roy, Utah. Mr. Werner discusses his knowledge and experiences while working on the railroad in Utah. MW: This is an interview of Mr. Clarence Werner by Mary Werner for the Oral History Project at Weber State College. We are at Mr. Werner's home, (2190 W. 5075 S.) Roy, Utah. It is June 29, 1973, and the time is 8:30 p.m. Tell me just a little bit about your early life. Where were you born? CW: I was born in Saint Edward, Nebraska. When I was 13 and still going to grade school, my mother died. I don't remember exactly when my dad died, I never knew him. My brother raised me until I started high school. I went to Omaha and finished high school in Omaha. I was going into the service and decided not to. I went to Denver and got a job there on the railroad as a helper. MW: What made you decide to go to Denver? CW: It was just a nice clean town and I figured I'd like to live there. That is the only reason I went there. MW: Had you ever gone to Denver before to see about this job? CW: No, I just went through there on the way to California. I went through there in 1936 and then when I came back in 1937, I said, "That's the place I want to live." So I came back there in May and I went to the C&S and asked for a job and they put me to work right the next morning. 1 MW: Now what's the C&S? CW: That's the C&S Railroad. MW: What made you decide to stop at the railroad and ask for a job? CW: Because I had asked different places where I could get a job and they said go to any of these railroads—they’re hiring a lot of people now. The first one I went to is where they hired me. MW: What exactly did you do on the C&S Railroad? CW: When I first started out, I worked as a helper. I was helping a boiler-maker. I didn't like that. That was too hot a job following them into the boilers. If you got into two or three of them you'd burn your feet. I said, "I'm getting out of that." I said I was going to hire out as a Machinist's Helper, so the next day I went to the boss and told him I wanted to hire out as a machinist's helper, so that's what I did. MW: Exactly what did you do as a machinist's helper? CW: As a machinist helper, all I did was go get tools for the machinist. We had steam engines then. If you were going to take a wisp pin off, the machinist would have to hold the wrench on the nut and the helper would have to take the sledge hammer and knock the wisp pin loose. The same thing, like if you were going to pull the piston, you'd pull the piston and it took two men to put the rings in and get the blocks because you couldn't hold them. One man just couldn't hold them all and put them in at the same time. Another thing, like when they had the crossbar or something in it, one man couldn't do that, so they had to have a helper to help them do that. The machinist and helper would work together. The same thing on the steam engine, you had these 2 binders. That's what you held you braces up that your drivers went on. You usually had to have two jacks and one man had to work one jack to another and jack them up in place. You had another bolt in there called a wedge and that's the way you'd line your drivers up by pushing this wedge up. The machinist would get up on the outside of the engine and the helper would go down in the pit. The helper had to screw this wedge up until all the drivers came even, otherwise, your steam engine would be running down the road crooked. One would line them up and another guy was down there screwing them up until he tells you to stop; that they were all lined up. MW: How did you know exactly what to do, or did he have to tell you? CW: He told me what to do. All you had to do was screw the wedge up until you got the wheel exactly in line because he had a chalk line running along it. It had to be lined up with the chalk line, but somebody had to be outside to line it up while you were putting the wedge up. Most had four drivers, four on one side and four on the other. One fellow has to be on the outside lining it up and the other guy is down below screwing them till they are lined up. Otherwise, you'd have one wheel going crosswise down the track and the other one would be the opposite. That's why they have to be lined up just perfect. The same thing, when you had valves. They are worked by steam, practically the same as on your car, but you had to have them open and closed at the right time or you won't have any power to work your steam engine. MW: What did you get paid for this job? CW: What did I get paid? MW: Yes. 3 CW: About $.90 an hour. MW: That was pretty good in those days wasn't it? CW: Yes, for then. MW: When did you finally leave the C&S and go somewhere else? CW: They asked me if I wanted to go as a helper apprentice, I jumped at that chance, I had to work two years as a helper apprentice. MW: What's the difference between a machinist helper and a helper apprentice? CW: When you’ve a helper apprentice you have to serve two years and a regular apprentice has to serve four years. At that time, they were so short on was supposed to go three years, but they cut it down to two years for a helper apprentice, because you knew quite a bit about it by then. When you've worked there three or four years, you know quite a bit about the locomotives so they give you credit for working there that long. That way you didn't have to work so long to be a machinist. You'd only have to work two years. In your last year, you'd work part of the time alone and part of the time with another machinist. MW: Did you finally become a machinist? CW: Yes, after two years as an apprentice. MW: That was on the C&S Railroad? CW: No, I didn't quite finish my time there and I got laid off. I went to the D&RG and I finished my time there. 4 MW: Can you just transfer from one railroad to another and not lose your apprenticeship at all? CW: They did then because the war was on. I had already proved that I could do it and where I had only six more months to go, they just gave me six months and gave me the papers on it, I had the union record and everything else to prove that I'd served all my time. Otherwise, one couldn't do that. They usually want you to finish on the road that you start on. They were cutting down so much on the C&S that they said they'd just let me transfer right on over to finish ray time. MW: Could you tell me, by working on the railroad during the war, exactly what effect the war had on the railroad because you had also worked on the railroad before the war. Could you tell me the difference? CW: Yes, because I was drafted in the Army, I went down to be inducted. I had my physical and everything. The President sent me a notice that I was to appear for duty, I went and told them that I was quitting. They said "why?" I said it was because the Government was calling me into the Army. They said I wasn't going, and I said I was. They said they'd see about that and I should go back to work. So I went back to work. The day of my induction, they sent me a special delivery letter that said I wasn't supposed to appear for induction, that I was supposed to stay with the railroad. MW: Did they do that with all railroad employees? CW: I really don't know, that's all I know about was me. They told me I didn't need to quit or take leave. The letter came that said I wasn't supposed to appear for induction. They 5 sent a card later on for the railroad to confirm. The company took care of the whole thing, I didn't do a thing. MW: Was the railroad any busier as far as business goes? Were they carrying anymore passengers or cargo? CW: They were carrying quite a bit of cargo at that time. I don't know if they were carrying more passengers, seems to me they were. There were a lot of them going through. All I'd see, if I was out in the yard, was them going through. That's what I'd used to watch a lot of times, about sundown. It's fun to get out there and watch a steam engine going down the track. Seeing the snake going up in the air. Seeing the train going down the track, just fascinated me. I don't know what it is about it, but you never get it out of your blood, at least I don't think. MW: Were you still in Denver all during the war? CW: Oh yes, all the time. Sometimes during the war, I don't know the dates for sure, the D&RG sent me to Fairplay, Colorado to work on a narrow gage they had there. That ran from Fairplay to Durango. MW: Was that the only narrow gage around or were they all narrow gages at that time? CW: No, that was the only one that I knew of. That was a distance of about 125 miles. There are so many mountains, they did have another narrow gage, but I don't know what company owned it and I think it was in New Mexico. I think the D&RG owned that one. I don't know how much track they had there. I got a kick out of working on the narrow gages then. The tires on them can be heated just a little and they pull right off. I was used to working on the great big ones. The narrow gauges were similar then to what I 6 had been doing. Another thing I got a kick out of, it had two Pierce Arrow motors and two Cadillac motors and they had those made over into a passenger and mail car. They would hold about 15 people. One engineer would drive that from Fairplay, Colorado to Durango, Colorado. They would have two cars leave Fairplay and two would leave Durango and they would meet somewhere on the way. That was when they had the snow plow there in the winter. The engineer had to carry sleeping bags and the company furnished sleeping bags if they had to stay overnight. They would stay in these sleeping bags and wouldn't freeze to death. Then I worked on the snow plow or rotor as it was called. That would throw the snow off the tracks over about 120 feet away from the tracks. They never had much wind there that it would blow it shut again. When the snow plow would break down, I would mark on it at night. They would run the snow plow during the day. I would sleep during the day while they ran the snow plow. MW: Were you still a machinist at that time? CW: Sure, someone had to repair the snow plow at night. When it broke down around three in the afternoon, I would have to start repairing it. I would get my sleep during the day, because they wanted me to fix the snow plow so they could get the mail through. They hauled mail and freight during the winter. They hauled mail, freight, and passengers in the summer. They would go to Montrose, Colorado and transfer all this stuff to the standard railroad. I don't know what freight they hauled, all I know is where they took it, but they did haul lumber. I would work there three months and then go back to Denver. If they got stuck or needed help, I would have to go back there and help them out. In 1948, I got laid off in Denver. The D&RG offered me a job in New Mexico. I went down and looked at it, but i didn't like it because it was too far out. A month later they said 7 they had a job opening for me in Green River, Wyoming and in Cheyenne, Wyoming. I asked them which one was the one to go to, and they said Green River because they keep you there longer, so I took it and went there. That was in January of 1949. Then I worked on all the #4000's; that is what they called the "Big Boy's" until the turbines came out in 1951. They practically changed overnight from steam to turbine, U.P. was more interested in the turbine. That was when they had the big snow storm, they had a lot of it, but I don't know how much they had in Ogden. From Green River to Cheyenne they had the railroad tied up for almost two weeks. All we would do is keep the steam on the engines all fired up so they could get in or out of Green River. I remember the groceries had to be flown in and they just dropped them and then it kinda leveled off where they could get back to Ogden, but they couldn't get back East. MW: Didn't they have snow plows? CW: They would go out and plow the snow and before the night or day was over, it had blown shut. There was one snow plow from Cheyenne and one from Green River. They both got stuck and neither of them could go either way and they had to get another one cut that was in the center. MW: The people stayed on the trains all this time? CW: Yes, there wasn't anything else for them to do. The people on the train had to stay on the train. MW: Why didn't they go to a motel or something? CW: The company provided them with their food and lodging and unless they could bus them out, there wasn't anything they could do. 8 MW: About how many would it take to do that? CW: Before they could get them out of Green River, it was close to hours. When you are in a snow storm you can't move in or out of it to do something. When they got the snow plow stuck in one place, and the other snow plow stuck in another, they had two here in Ogden and one in Cheyenne and two in Green River. The trouble was that the wind was blowing so hard, it was blowing it shut before they could get it open. If they wouldn't have had the wind, they just could have one out and there wouldn't have been nothing to it. It freezes 20 foot banks and you get these poles and push through the snow to see that there are no trees or anything in the way, because if you came up against a big tree, then you break the motor. You have to get a few people to run back through it to see that there is nothing that will bring down a slide, or you would have lost everything you gained. The pole is about 10 feet long and you stick them in the snow. If you would break the machine, then they would have to get in another machine just to pull up behind it. MW: How long did you stay in Green River? CW: About nine years. MW: Did you see another winter like that one? CW: No, I never saw one like that one. They did take some precautions. They built a few of what they call sheds. All they are is a lean-to by a mountain on one side and they have a roof on them. It if kinda like a tunnel because they have posts along one side. They hold the roof up because they expect maybe 20 feet of snow on top of that. That is why it has got to be so strong to hold that. There is little light through there and most people 9 think they are going through a tunnel, they are in fact going through something like a carport. It is about a mile long and in the worst sections is where they have them. There is one between here and Sherman Hill. They built a regular tunnel, but that was just a man- made tunnel that they go through. They had to make it so heavy to hold the snow, it is boarded up on both sides. When they go through there, you can't actually call it a tunnel. In 1949 the first turbine came out and I worked on them. They were getting away from the steam engine. The U.P. was the only one that had these turbines. A lot of people and railroads tried them out, but the U.P. was the one that actually had them and made money out of them. A turbine could pull a train and pull the draw-bar right out of it. The tonage they haul depends on how many cars they haul. They used to haul 50 cars. Today with the tonage on, they can haul 125 cars. The U.P. has decided that they can haul 150 cars on a train and we'd put one unit in the center and three on the head end. That way they wouldn't break the draw bar. They work the center unit by remote control, I know most people, as far as the public is concerned, think that is a dead engine in the center. That engine works harder than the others, When they first started doing that here in Ogden, they have quite a hill going out of here and about every third train, they'd break the draw bar. They had too much tonage on each car. The engineer had to decide if he was hauling too much tonage to break the draw bar. Sometimes he'd miss and they'd break the draw bar before they ever got out of town. They had too much weight to pull. I worked from 1951 to 1958 and they were getting rid of the steam engines then. They had a few left. The #800's were on their way out here because the passengers were all diesels. They used to have a machinist go on the passenger units; there were always three units pulling passenger trains. The machinist would get on at 10 Green River and go as far as North Platte. In that distance, we'd change out three pistons on different units, (there are two units in one), they'd have two motors, but they are individual on each unit. You see a diesel, they have one unit and eight cylinders on each side which is the same as two separate motors. You can shut one motor down, but when you shut both motors down the unit is completely dead. The other two units that are still pulling have four more motors for power. When we used to go out on these passengers, as a rule you'd start out with one. If you got a broken piston on the way, you had to wire ahead to get parts in the next town. A unit would only be there five minutes and ready to go. You'd put water in them while loading and unloading passengers. You'd get another set to go and by the time you got to the next town another piston would be broken. That's the way it was done all the time. We used to go to Pocatello too and then come to Ogden, Ogden was the worst place to come to, because the tracks were so bad, about 20 miles out of here if you were trying to put a piston in and it was up over head, you'd be going round these curves and you could slip when the train would swing. If it was sitting on a bevel-like, you had to watch it so it wouldn't get away from you. That's the reason I didn't like to come to Ogden because the tracks were so crooked—not because of the work, it didn't make any difference one place or the other. You'd have to brace yourself whenever you came to a sway because this was the worst part of the track. The best track was from Green River to Cheyenne because it was practically all straight and wouldn't get any sway. I got laid off in 1958 in Green River and I came to Ogden. I lost a week’s work. I came to Ogden where they were hiring in 1958. MW: How did you hear they were hiring? Just by word of mouth or did you check into it? 11 CW: Just by word of mouth. I just heard that some of them came down here and got a job. I heard one guy, a district foreman, was down here so I called him and asked him if there was any openings. He said he didn't know for sure. Two other fellows came down here and they were going to be hired so I called and asked, "How could they be hired when they weren't laid off yet?" I said I was going to work here till I'm done then I'm going to come down here the next day. So that's what I did, I worked nights in Green River and after the night I was laid off, the next morning I came down to Ogden and they told me to take two rest days and come to work. MW: What railroad was this for? CW: This was for the O.P.I worked for the U.P. in Green River and then I worked on diesel and steam here. But the steams last year was in 1959 and then they had a big excursion that ran from Chicago to Los Angeles. All they hauled on that was passengers. That was the last I heard of the steam engines. MW: What did they do with all them? There must have been quite a few steam engines laying around. CW: They had a lot in Cheyenne that I know they scrapped. The same way with the turbines, that ran till 1962. They had those only 10 years. But they figured that was the life of them. I don't know what they figure the life of a diesel is. But 10-12 years is about the life of a steam engine and a turbine engine. They just automatically cut them up for scrap. You probably figure they just do away with the whole thing, but they don't, they take the parts out of them that they can reuse. The main part that they can use, like the boiler, they would use over if they still used steam. On the turbine today, they took the tanks for fuel and reuse them. Here in Ogden they have two stored in the yard that they 12 fill full of fuel and take fuel out for different uses like; diesel in modern times—they pump out of the car into this sitting unit and pump it into a truck. They will maybe just put 100 gallons in this unit so they can get to the next place. That's more up to date because they only fuel them at certain places now, they don't fuel them along the line. In Ogden, for instance, they will fill them just enough so they can get to their next destination where they do most of the work. In Ogden, a lot of them don't stop, but the ones that do just go to Salt Lake. If they're going the other way, they expect them to go to Laramie, because that's the way with the railroad right now. The railroad isn't going downhill, it's going ahead. You can figure that with all these piggy backs that they've got today. You can see them almost as far as the eye can see. As far as piggy backs are concerned, this is the coming thing. A whole freight train coming and going with piggy backs makes it more convenient, because they can load these piggy backs on. They can put three on a flat car and take it to its destination. All they have to do is hook on to it, take it off. Say they loaded this piggy back in Los Angeles and brought it here to Salt Lake. They have to have three trucks to hook on to them and haul them to their destination. Now that's taking them only three days to get those from Los Angeles to get them delivered. MW: How long would it take a truck to drive straight through? CW: He isn't loaded yet. It would take him more than three days. He has to drive continuous to get here. If only one man drives, he couldn't make it in only three days. MW: Then too, I imagine he'd have to stop at all the weighing stations? CW: Yes, he would. That's what you have to take in consideration. How much stopping he has to do. As far as the railroad is concerned, that could leave Los Angeles at night and could be in Ogden tomorrow night. 13 MW: How fast does it have to be traveling then? CW: Around 60-70 miles an hour. MW: If it goes from Los Angeles to Ogden, it doesn't have to stop at any- state lines to pay a tax does it? CW: No, it doesn't stop. The only stopping place between here and Los Angeles on freight is Las Vegas. It stops there for fuel and comes on through. MW: How come the trains don't have to pay a tax as they go from state to state? CW: Well, I don't know. That is all regulated by the Government. I.C.C. regulated that. Whether they pay at one end or the other, I don't know enough about it. It is just too big a thing to know much about it. All I know, the revenue has to come out of it. That would be figured on the whole thing. For instance, I know Sears, they load a car in Los Angeles, a whole car not a piggy back, and ship it to Salt Lake, They have their truckers take it off there. I don't know how the tax is figured from one state to another. It has to be figured out some way. You'd have to be in Congress to know about that. MW: What exactly is your job in Ogden? CW: I got away from the diesels and since 1960, I work in the Store Dept. working on all their trucks and lift trucks. In 1971. I was transferred to the maintenance of ways. Now I take care of all trucks, cars, and high rails between Salt Lake and Kamas, I have to work on plaster machines and the machines that line the track and raise the track. Where- ever they have trouble, that's where I work. MW: Are you still qualified for a machinist? CW: Oh yes. 14 MW: But you don't work on any trains? CW: I don't work on any trains at all. All I work on is automobiles, diesels like they have on plaster machines, tampers, back hoes and anything that is for the operating of the maintenance of way for the Union Pacific Railroad. As far as diesels that run on the tracks, I don't have a thing to do with them. I do all the buying for them in Ogden. MW: You said you came to Ogden about 1959. Could you tell me anything that you have noticed different in the Ogden area that was there and is not there today? CW: There was a clock on the front of the depot. (He is talking about the old depot that burned down) When I worked my way down here I first noticed it. I used to get off at the depot and the main drag was going up 25th Street to Washington. When I noticed the clock was when we came down from Washington and were facing the depot. I noticed it often then. They used to have a light up there. Another thing different today is I know very well there were at least 30 to 50 passengers in here a day. When I first started in 1959, I counted them. They were going every direction and I worked on a lot of them in I960. They used to have three every night that went out of Ogden into the Idaho branch. I can't say exactly how many run from here to Los Angeles or to Frisco. They were going both directions. Any direction you wanted to go, you could catch a passenger out of here. MW: Were they usually always full? CW: Seemed to me they were always full and still they didn't have enough room, but they didn't put any more cars on, I don't know why they didn't put any more cars on, I've ridden them quite a few times. One time I remember sitting on a suitcase. That was the 15 only way I could get a ride out of here. I sat on the suitcase from here to Green River because I couldn't get a seat and I wanted to go back, I was going on a pass, but that doesn't make any difference. I know very well when I was working down here, you had to go to the depot first, because that's where all the business was. There were trains coming in and out of there all the time. Notice today—nothing. MW: Why did it change? Why don't you see anything down there? CW: Because they have done away with all of them. The only time they have them is when Amtrak comes in. MW: What's Amtrak? CW: That's the one the Government took over so they could run passengers. MW: Wasn't the railroad able to? What was the problem? CW: The way I understand it, the railroads were going in the hole when they were operating it for the passengers. They took the mail away from the railroad. That's what hurt the railroad as far as the passengers were concerned. They had so much mail and while they were hauling all this mail they could get enough revenue to off-set the loss on the passengers. MW: They had a loss on passengers if they had 50 caning in a day? CW: Yes. MW: With 50 car loads of people coming in in one day, how could you expect a loss? CW: Well, because the people going through here didn't want to take first class. They wanted to go 2nd class. If you go first class, it is the same as riding an airplane, because you 16 get a sleeper. By 2nd class, you have a chair car. That's what most people took—a chair car. Why they couldn't make any money, I don't know, but it seemed to me that the U.P. always made money. But a lot of the other railroads didn't make money. I know one railroad in the Northwestern part of the states, running up along the Minnesota line and into California, had radios and all the conveniences for passengers and they made money. U.P. also made money. But two railroads can't keep passengers going and still make money if the other railroads can't. It's just like a chain, the weakest link always breaks. So if a couple of railroads are making money and the others aren't, they're a weak link. The ones who are making money can't make up the loss for the ones losing money. Somebody's got to give up. The U.P. made money because of the attitude they took toward the passengers. Even the people who worked for U.P. had a good attitude toward the job. If you are not satisfied with the job, I say you shouldn't work there, because you reflect that attitude on the company you work for. If you don't like the company you work for, you should get out from under it because you're not doing that company any good—you are not doing anybody any good. If you like to work for a comparer, you are going to be putting out a lot of effort for that company. It don't make any difference what part you hold in it, because you carry just as big a part for the company as you do for yourself as long as you like to work. That's just what life is. If you don't like what you are doing, you better get out. MW: What other things have changed on the railroad? CW: Here in Ogden they use to have canopies all along the depot. You go there today and there is only one canopy, I believe there used to be 30 of them. The passengers used to walk under there, when it was raining, to the train and they would never get wet. 17 MW: Why do they still have one? Why don't they tear it down too? CW: That one is for Amtrak. That's the only one there left. Another thing, they use to have a place where you could go downstairs into a tunnel that would go under the tracks and into the trains. That's all filled with dirt now. MW: Was it only for employees? CW: No, no it was for the passengers. MW: Why would anyone want to go down under the tracks? CW: They had 10 tracks and would call out the track number and its destination, then you would get on the one you wanted to go on. MW: Oh, so you wouldn't have to cross over a track. CW: That's right.' They don't have it anymore because it is all filled in with dirt. MW: Was that tunnel in the depot itself? CW: Well, yes, you just walked outside the depot and walked down underneath. There was also a freight house that has also been torn down. That sat on the south side of the depot. They just finished tearing that down no more than one month ago. They still have the tractor setting down there where they had all the steel beams. MW: What was the freight house for? CW: That's where they stored grain doors. They were about this wide with cardboard on both sides with nails around the edges. I never saw them before in my life, but when they tore the freight house down, they stored them where I am working. They also had quite a bit of different other stuff down there. I don't think they stored the railroad calendars 18 there though. I think they were stored in the depot basement. The calendars are out now for 1974 and they have stored them somewhere. When they were running a lot of passengers, they also had the commissary in the freight office. They had a lot of food stored there. They called that the D&H. They would furnish these trains with everything they needed right at the depot. They would fill these trains up from the freight house. MW: What does Amtrak do now that there is no freight house? CW: I don't know where Amtrak gets their food or even what they serve. I heard they do serve food on the train though. They only have two trains in a day—one coming and one going. MW: About what time? CW: I know it is real early in the morning. I think around 4:00 or 3:00 in the morning. I heard it was around k or 5 cars. Maybe they have sleepers on there, I don't know. They also have a diner on there. I haven't been on any Amtrak train. MW: Aren't railroad people allowed to go on Amtrak? CW: Oh yes, I have an annual pass now. I just got it here a month ago. Before we were only allowed a trip pass. They weren't going to give us an annual pass but then they decided they would. MW: Doesn't Amtrak travel on the U.P. line? CW: Yes. MW: Do they pay U.P. then? 19 CW: Well, that I don't know. But for the men who help Amtrak like the brakemen, U.P. pays them but Amtrak must reimburse U.P. I don't think there is over three men that work for U.P. and help Amtrak too. MW: What other things have you noticed that have been torn down in the Ogden yards? CW: The roundhouse has been torn down. That really leaves a sore spot because there is nothing left there at all. MW: What was the roundhouse used for? CW: That's where we use to work on the steam engines. They called it a roundhouse because they had a turntable in the middle where an engine would go on it; then go into one of the 30 or 40 stalls where it would be repaired. It was practically round so they called it a roundhouse. Today they don't build anymore roundhouses. They build what they call diesel shops now. They can't get as many engines in there now. They run only about 15 into the one in Salt Lake City. The one in North Platte, Nebraska is just a long building with 15 tracks going into it. They start on one end and tear a unit completely down and they have an overhead crane that keeps earring the engine back and forth. They start tearing it down and by the time it's gone 15 tracks, they have a unit completely overhauled. MW: Sounds like an assembly line. CW: That's just what it is—an assembly line. They have a few guys begin tearing it down on one end and in 24 hours they can put two units out. MW: Is that why the one in Ogden was torn down, because it was so outdated? 20 CW: Yes, it was outdated, but really I don't know why it was torn down. But I think it was because Salt Lake City and Ogden are too close together. There is only about 30 miles difference. They built a big shop down in Salt Lake so this one in Ogden suffered, I think they built that one in Salt Lake in about 1956. The roundhouse is a thing of the past because since they don't have steam engines, they have no use for the roundhouse. With diesel they have to have a lot less gas and they have the roof so much lower than the high steam engines that had a lot more gas. When I talk about gas I'm talking about the smoke exhaust. For the steam, they had to have a lot higher building to let the smoke get out and they had a huge fan to help draw it out. For the diesel engines, the workshops can be built lower but they still have the fans to help make the air circulate, or else you would suffocate. With so many people in there and with the engine you need some help to get the bad air out. In the last two years they only began running the engineers and the conductors from Salt Lake City to Green River. That's the biggest change I've ever seen come. The engineers always said that they would never run that long of a line—it couldn't be done. But now they run from Salt Lake City to Green River and it takes them seven hours. Back in 1900 it used to take four hours just to go from Salt Lake City to Ogden, and six hours if everything went right, to go from Ogden to Evanston. You can see how much faster travel time has been changed. The engineers always got paid by the trip, figuring a trip was eight hours. The company was willing to go along with that. If they went from Salt Lake City to Green River, it took them seven hours, if everything went good; if it didn't it would take them eight or eight-and-half hours. The engineers were always saying they could never be forced to take that. But I 21 figure if you work for a company you get paid for eight hours work. If the engineers don't make the trip in seven hours, then the company will give them overtime. MW: You can't complain about that. CW: No, that's what I mean that if you work for a company where everyone does their job it makes everything go better and everybody's happy. Just one year ago, they took the run-around track through Ogden. But now they take that train from Green River to Salt Lake City without stopping. They don't change crews or anything. That's a big change. They just finished that track a year this September when the first train run over it. That's never been done before. When they have the idea complete they want to run a train from New York to Los Angeles. In that whole distance they don't want to take a unit off and add cars on except in Chicago, but hardly without stopping. They will only change the conductor. MW: That's just freight? CW: Yes, that's what they're after. I think that's a good deal. They use to have a deal where they would load a train in North Platte or Chicago and if they wanted to drop off two cars, they would put them on the back of the train. They tried that and it didn't work too successful. I don't know if you have noticed it or not, but when you see a freight train going along you notice more than one caboose on it don't you. MW: Um Hum. CW: Do you know what that's for? MW: No. 22 CW: That's for what I was just telling you. If we load these 50 cars up in Chicago and we want to go to Omaha and take off two cars, then in Salt Lake City we want to take off two more and we want to go straight on through to Los Angeles, Alright we have cabooses here because we have two drop offs to make. The train doesn't even stop at Omaha; they simply reach down and pull the chain loose right on the caboose. Then the caboose with two cars is separated from the large train. MW: Then another train canes along and picks them up? CW: Yes, the switch engine comes along and picks them up. That's how much faster the train goes through. MW: Is that due to automation? CW: Yes, that's due to automation. Another thing I don't know whether you've noticed these emblems on the sides of the car that are different colors, but they take a picture of that as the train goes by at maybe 100 miles an hour. They have a machine that can then tell you what’s exactly in that car. MW: Is that in Ogden? CW: Oh no, that's all over the system. MW: But can they tell that in Ogden too? CW: Oh yea, that's all over the United States, every railroad has that. MW: Then there must be a little bit of automation in Ogden? CW: Why sure, it's in Ogden too. MW: Is it in the depot? 23 CW: No, it's up along the lines. The picture is taken as the train goes along. As soon as the train pulls into the yard, they know what’s in the cars. MW: Why is it necessary to know what's in the cars? CW: To know where it's going. The little code tells you everything about that car. The colors are outstanding and each means something on the decoder. I don't know what the colors mean, but the decoder can tell in less than 5 minutes everything about that car. If a guy in Ogden is called by a guy in Omaha because he has to know what’s in a certain car, the guy by use of the color code can tell him exactly what he wants to know. MW: Now that you have said that automation has taken over the railroad so much, maybe not in Ogden so much, but maybe there is a future for the railroad even if it's in North Platte or Green River or somewhere. Do you agree with that? CW: Oh yes, I'll agree with that, but Ogden, I think, is definitely going out of the picture as far as the railroad is concerned. But the railroad itself is going ahead. If isn't going down. As far as automation is concerned, they are keeping right up with the times, they aren't backing up any. They are gaining every day in as far as what you call freight. That's what they're after is freight. It would be a disaster to lose the railroad, because there isn't anything else that could keep up with the railroad. Even if they turned freight over to trucks, they just can't keep up with the way the country is going today. If they call a strike or anything, they can't let everybody out because they couldn't stand the pileup. There is too much stuff being moved back and forth from the East coast to the West coast. They have to have that stuff moving and truckers couldn't handle it. We could get along here in Ogden, but for how long? For 30 days? 24 MW: Without supplies? CW: Yes, without supplies. I don't think we could. MW: You, don't think all the trucks could handle it? CW: They couldn't begin to carry it all. There is just too much stuff to be hauled. You would have to have a whole string of trucks, and they wouldn't begin to compete with the trains. You have to have your trucks, I have nothing against the trucks, but the railroad has to be there too. They both have to work together. On the railroad, they can haul two trucks on a piggy back. One freight train may haul 150 piggy backs. Figuring two on one piggy back, you couldn't even get that many on the road. We would be all jammed up and it would be like cutting your own throat. That's why I say the railroad is really on an upswing, of course, they have their ups and downs like in the 1930's when everyone else was down. But now the country's on an upswing and so is the railroad. No matter how you want to figure it, the railroad is here to stay. It won't go by the wayside. That's about all I have to say about the railroad. MW: Ok, thank you very much Mr. Werner. 25