Oral History Program Mahalingam Subbiah Interviewed by Michael Shepard 2 December 2008 i Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Mahalingam Subbiah Interviewed by Michael Shepard 2 December 2008 Copyright © 2014 by Weber State University, Stewart Library ii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in University Archives. The Stewart Library also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description The Weber State College/University Student Projects have been created by students working with several different professors on the Weber State campus. The topics are varied and based on the student's interest or task for a specific assignment. These oral history assignments were created to help Weber State students learn the value and importance of recording public history and to benefit the expansion of the Weber State oral history collections. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed Kelley Evans, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Subbiah, Mahalingam, an oral history by Michael Shepard, 2 December 2008, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Mahalingam Subbiah. The interview was conducted on December 02, 2008, by Michael Shepard, in Subbiah’s office at Weber State University. The interview concerns the experience of immigration to the United States. MaS: My full name is Mahalingam Subbiah and I am happy to answer any questions that Michael may have. MiS: So, just some initial questions. When and where were you born, and what were your parents’ names? MaS: Obviously I was born in India, Michael. When was I born, gee that looks like eons ago. Actually, I was born in 1949. Just two years after India got independence. I was born in a state called Tamil Nadu, which is the southernmost state, in a small village. And my fathers, dads, name is Subbiah, I get his name as my last name. My mother’s name is (Indistinct). I hope that makes sense to you. MiS: What do you remember about growing up in India? What are some of the more striking memories? MaS: I grew up in my village until I was sixteen and then had to move away to attend college. That was kind of a big move for me. I had never left my parents. It's not like the way that you guys grow up here. It's a totally different country as you may know. We always grow up under the shelter, shade of our parents, they decide everything. So, when my parents decided that I need to go to, move to a different city to attend college, that was a big move. But before that, lots of good memories. I can't just single out one while I was growing up. It's again, my father was a farmer and all his brothers, there are five of them, they were all 1 farmers. Of course his dad was a farmer. His grandpa was a farmer, and so I grew up in a farming community. My dad was the one who suggested that, you know, maybe you want to do something else, you know, you go to college. He was that kind of a man, that always, very thoughtful, very kind. Even though he would have loved to keep me there helping him out, farming, he decided to send me out. So, he's, he's. . . He sheltered me, protected me in more than one way as I was growing up. So was my mother. She was very kind, and very giving and caring. So I grew up under their care while I was in the village. I had a lot of friends there. You know, we walked a mile, mile and a half to go to school. We would come back in the evening and village games. So there are a lot of things, I can go on and on Michael. So ah. . . MiS: You said that you went to college at sixteen and that was inside India. So that was in one of the surrounding cities? One of the closer ones? MaS: It's very close, maybe about forty, fifty miles from my home town. But forty, fifty miles looked like a very long distance to me. You have to go either by public transportation, using a bus transportation system, or a train, which easily took about three hours to get there. Then it's a reasonably, a medium sized city. So, it was a big city in that sense. And then it's a newer city. And we always have this anxiety when we go from High School to a new city. And me from, going from a rural part of the country to this town was kind of more anxious for me. So it wasn't too far away. When I look back it wasn't too far away but at that time it looked too far away because I never left my parents, even for a single day. Can you imagine all those sixteen years? MiS: Okay, so, you go off to college and then what is it that ends up bringing you to the US? 2 MaS: Okay, see, I did my bachelor’s degree at this university. It's called Annmali University. It's one of the good. . . MiS: How did you spell that? MaS: Uh, it’s "A" double "N" "M" "A," "M" as in man, "A" "L" "I" University. This is one of the pretty newer cities in the south. So I did my bachelors in botany at the newer city. Then I got my teachers certificate. Then from that degree I went to Madras, which is now called Chennai, which is the capital city of Tamil Nadu state. Went to Madras and started working in, in a middle school that has now become a high secondary school, which is like a junior college here. Ah, just like a high school, I take it back. You have until twelfth grade. But anyway, I started teaching in that school. Fortunately for me Michael, that school is located in one of the prestigious universities in India called NT, Indian Institute of Technologies. Those are very, very prestigious, world class institutions. It tops MIT. It tops Harvard. But the school I was teaching was located inside that campus. So, that opened my eyes that I saw all these students that were coming to NT doing these amazing, academically challenging things and these teachers with all their PhDs graduating from England, from Germany, from USA, getting back and teaching. And that seeded the desire in me to do and go some Master’s degree. So, I did my Masters in Madras in literature. I liked literature. So from botany I switched to English literature. I did my Masters. While I was doing my Master’s degree, I had couple of American friends visiting Madras. These friends were from Oklahoma State University, Stillwater Oklahoma. So I was their local guide. I was taking them in and around Madras. They suggested that well, why don't you do a Ph.D. I said no, I haven't thought about it but what can I do? They said well there is something called technical writing. And one of the two, 3 the couple who visited, whom I took around, was teaching at Oklahoma State University. She was teaching technical writing. She said, you know, have you considered this field? And she gave me some information and then of course I got in touch with the English department got more information about the program. That got me interested in coming over here. So I came here to do my Ph.D. MiS: Okay, and quick question on the Master’s degree. Was that at NT? MaS: No, that, I did that at a different University in Madras, lit is mostly science and technology. It produces top caliber engineers and scientists. It’s a very competitive to get into and it’s a long drawn process too. But I was interested in doing literature. IIT is not the place for doing literature. MiS: So, where was it that you--? MaS: It's called. It's a college in Madras called Pachaiyappa. You may not, yeah. It's one of the fairly good run colleges. MiS: And how did you spell that? MaS: "P" as in pan "A" as in Alice. "C" "H" "A" "I" "Y" "A" "P" "P" "A" "S", "S" as in Sam. Pachaiyappas. Maybe, that’s right, Pachaiyappa, delete the "S" because Pachaiyappa College. MiS: Okay, so, building on some experience with friends you came to the US to do your Doctorate at Oklahoma. MaS: Right. Oklahoma State University, there are two universities in Oklahoma state, OSU and OU. MiS: Good rivalry there? MaS: Absolutely. Like BYU and U of U. 4 MiS: Yeah, whenever you have a couple of universities. . . MaS: Exactly. Yeah, yeah. MiS: Okay, so, you kind of had a support network when you first got here, a couple of friends, some friends on the faculty there. Was there a large Indian, South Asian Indian population there? MaS: Yeah, as you know that. There are a lot of university students, particularly for graduate programs come from both India and China. And it's always. I think it is going back and forth between which country sends more students for higher ed. So, we had a large contingent of Indian population in addition to the other countries including China and Malay and so on. In the hundreds. So there are a lot of Indian students around. They have married and student housing and you see a lot of Indian families with small kids living there and going to school. So yeah, there is a very big international student organization, I guess, or office. And a big part of it is an Indian contingent. So there are a lot of Indian students. MiS: That’s nice, didn't have to feel isolated. But now you're on the other side of the world, almost exactly from your parents. It's nice to be able to have that. So what got you affiliated with Weber State? MaS: Well, that happens with all of the students, most of the students. Once you, once I got the degree, see my degree was in English with the emphasis in Technical Writing. Unfortunately at that point, maybe fortunately, that many newer cities back in India did not have this Technical Writing program. I had, I think, maybe two options at that point. One. To go to India and teach Technical Writing classes. Or get some experience here in this country teaching Technical Writing and then go back to India and start a program. I guess 5 my experience is pretty typical of a good majority of immigrants. Meaning, when I was looking for a job to gain some experience, you know, I was applying to a couple of schools and Weber State is one of the first few schools I applied. I got an interview and I came here. I liked this place and obviously they liked me. I joined here in 1987. But me, I never returned home. I think one thing leads to another and I got married, had a family. And so you kind of slowly, I guess, root yourself in this new soil. That's what has happened. Mine is very typical of a good majority of immigrants. So, that’s how I ended up here. I mean, I didn't know anybody here. I applied through, you know, newspapers and got here. MiS: Um, I guess I'm kind of wandering a bit here but, why Technical Writing? MaS: See, back home, it was after my degree in English Literature with my teacher certificate, I was teaching in what is similar to a high school here, twelfth grade. I was teaching English Literature and composition. There were a couple of things, that was a dead end job to me, number one. Number two, I was looking for ways that I can branch out from literature, do something else. Then I came to know about technical writing. Which the very idea of technical writing, teaching writing as it is applicable to industries, on the job writing and then taking this back to the users in various ways, through manuals, online help and so on. The idea was very fascinating to me. That it was more of applied composition kind of a thing. And that was a new field, so I just wanted to try it out. MiS: Seems like it worked out well. MaS: I didn't know. I hadn't heard about technical writing until then, until this friend said this to me. It sounded like more, like sort of applied part of the English. I guess I liked. Maybe that’s part of my, kind of, background training in botany, kind of a science more applied areas helped me to choose this field. 6 MiS: So, you put down roots here and haven't, obviously haven't moved back to India. Do you go back and visit? Does your family go back with you? MaS: Yes, we, until our kids grew up. When they were little, we, I have two kids. So me, my wife and the two kids used to go to India once in two or three years, and then it, kind of various reasons why we couldn't make it. One is, I think, financial thing. It is a lot of money for the four of us to travel back and forth. So we couldn't make it in that two or three year cycle, so it has kind of widened a bit. At one point kids didn't go to India for about eight years. I didn't go for about five years. My wife, I think, for about three years. So we all went again this past summer. So, yeah, that is a kind of a thing. We want to go maybe once in two or three years but we end up going probably once in four years or something like that. But we do go visit my wife's parents and our relatives. My parents, both of them, died in 2003. But my brother lives there, my sister lives. His kids are all there. Besides me and my wife all our relatives from both sides live in India so we love to go and visit with them. MiS: So, your wife is Indian as well. You met her here though? MaS: No, ho I did not. This is. Have you heard about arranged marriage? My marriage was an arranged marriage. It’s very typical. A good percentage of Indians, even today, I think, is getting married this arranged marriage way. I think it is now more called assisted marriage rather than arranged marriage but mine was arranged. Meaning I didn't know my wife until, I guess, ten days before I got married to her. So, when I was doing my PhD at Oklahoma State I went home for a summer and my grandmother and my parents thought that it was time that I got married. I think I must have told them very meekly no, because they did not take it as a no. They looked for a girl and Sheela, that’s my wife's name, they took me to see her. We saw each other. Of course had we said no, either my wife or I said 7 no, they would not have pursued this matter further. But they would have come up with some other, what they call an alliance. So it was my parents that did this. Then I got married while I was visiting India and in the summer break. And then she came along with me a couple of months later. I came first and then she followed me. MiS: And her name was? MaS: Her name is Sheela. MiS: And how did you spell that? MaS: "S" double "H" double "E" "L" "A". Not double "H" sorry. MiS: Alright. That must have been kind of tough, a new marriage, still working on the PhD, and getting to know each other. MaS: Yes, it was very hard. I understand that the first year. They always say that the first year is very hard, getting to know each other. Think lots of things compounded the difficulty for me. One is that, like you said, I was going to school. You know you need to devote a lot of time to your program, number one. Number two, I was a poor student. I lived on assistance-ship. Of course, we would get money from back at home to support us. But that’s kind of a very. It’s a very happy life though. I mean the student life is very great. But you had, kind of in the back of your mind you think about your finances all the time. You don't have any insurance and she got pregnant with the first kid. We never had any medical insurance. You wonder how we are going to manage it. It is those kinds of difficulties. Fortunately at Oklahoma State we had both lots of, the friends I mentioned, the American friends and then a lot of Indian students with families. So we had a good support system like we used to have back in India. So that was, I think, a great relief in many ways. But the finance probably is the number one is how are we going to manage 8 this year, next year, next semester. We kind of lived from semester to semester. And then, another big thing is for me, what am I going to do after a degree? Going back to India and getting a job at a university is again, a very long process. It's very difficult. It's very competitive. There are not that many jobs around. Then my field is, I am getting into a new field. I wanted to get some experience here in this country teaching tech writing. Will I be able to get a job, compete with the local students who graduate with a tech writing degree? So those kinds of anxieties are there. But all in all it was a very happy period. MiS: So, now you've got your family but you're moving away from this support structure to Utah. Did you find a new support structure? Another, a kind of diaspora? MaS: I guess a couple of things. For me, that I am an immigrant and to me it didn't matter where I moved to. Whether it was Ogden Utah or somewhere in Kentucky, Missouri. These are the places I went to for an interview to. I think we could have. We would have happily settled in any of those places as well. Having said that, one of the things about India and Indians is, as you know, you go to any University in our country here, you will see quite a few Indian faculty members. So I knew that I will be running into a bunch of Indian faculty members on any campus. That happened to be the case here too. In fact, when I joined here the chair of the department was an Indian. I don't know if you know him (name needed). Katheryn Mackay would know. His name was (name). He retired I think maybe six or seven years ago. So he was the chair and he was an Indian. And then his wife was teaching here. Her name was Neela (last name needed). She was teaching in the English department. In fact her office was next door. And she was (indistinct). And Prasanna Reddy who is still teaching here. And then like a couple of other faculty members like (name) from Political Science. Raj Kumar (Name ?) in communications. So there were a 9 bunch of faculty members here. That means there was an Indian community in Ogden its self. So I think very, I guess very luxuriously I fell into that support system too. So it didn't make much of a difference to me. MiS: Is there anything that you would like to talk about that I haven't asked you about? MaS: What exactly is it that. . . Why are you doing this interview? What is it you want to understand? MiS: Mostly I'm chronicling the immigration experience. The change in culture. What it is like to leave this home support structure and cross the entire world into a new place. MaS: You know it's literally you uproot your life from one country to another country. It is like transplanting tree saplings or seedlings. You know, you put the root in the container and transport it to some other place. Until it puts down roots in the new soil and gets acclimatized to the local environment and starts growing well, you don't know if it’s going to establish its self and grow well or its going to wither down and die. It’s a very unsettling process. But for us, many of us coming from India, maybe it is not as unsettling because there is always this. You can always go back home to (India). As you know it is one of the largest democracies. Most of the immigrants who come to this country from India are reasonably well off, financially, back home. Otherwise you can't come here, can't travel here, can't support yourself. So, you can always go back. So that’s not a big problem when you are choosing this as your country. But you have those anxieties. My problem was more of choosing, you know, leaving your country, motherland, and choosing a different land as your own. It is more of a mental process that I was going through rather than a physical or economical process. I don't know if it makes sense to you or not. MiS: I think it does. 10 MaS: On the one hand, I would not like to stay in any other country. This is a great country. Yeah we have problems but which country does not? This is a great country. I would not live in any other country. And we always as growing up students, especially college students, we always looked up to America. We are more familiar with the popular culture than, I think, even the local (indistinct), that the students look up to and that is true even today. I think Indians back home will know a lot more about the popular singers, Hollywood movies and soap operas than what we do know here. We are always looking up to this country and coming here was not that big of a hassle. We are not political asylum seekers, so that wasn't that difficult. I guess we moved from one largest democracy to one very efficient democracy. That wasn't bad. But if there is anything else you let me know. I can talk to you, talk on and on but I would like to give you something that would help you. If not now then you can come in some other time. MiS: It has been very very helpful. Thank you very much. MaS: No big deal Michael. MiS: If I need some help making sure I spell some names right I will give you a call and thank you again. MaS: No problem Michael. I hope that that is kind of what you wanted but if you didn't, let me know I would be more than happy to sit with you. 11