Oral History Program T.O. Smith Interviewed by Sue Holmes 15 March 1971 i Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah T.O. Smith Interviewed by Sue Holmes 15 March 1971 Copyright © 2014 by Weber State University, Stewart Library ii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in University Archives. The Stewart Library also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description The Weber State College/University Student Projects have been created by students working with several different professors on the Weber State campus. The topics are varied and based on the student's interest or task for a specific assignment. These oral history assignments were created to help Weber State students learn the value and importance of recording public history and to benefit the expansion of the Weber State oral history collections. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Smith, T.O., an oral history by Sue Holmes, 15 March 1971, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with T.O. Smith. The interview was conducted on March 15, 1971, by Sue Holmes, in the home of the interviewee. Mr. Smith discusses his experiences and knowledge of the educational system in Utah. SH: What was education like when you entered the profession? TS: With a little prodding of my memory I can get back between forty or fifty years and recall some things that were considerably different than is the case at present. For example, for several years now there has been quite a shortage of teachers. But one of the great problems I had as a young graduate from the university was to find a district that would be willing to accept me as a beginning teacher, since there was a surplus of teachers available. As a matter of fact, I recall I was quite elated when I finally received that contract from Superintendent B.A. Fowler, then Superintendent of the Weber County Schools. He invited me to become a teacher in the Weber County High School, then only in its first year. It was my privilege to begin the second year at Weber County High School as a member of the faculty. Then too, it hadn't been so very many years that compulsory education had been in effect up to the age of 18. It was still a problem to get all the students into school, with less than the convenience that now exists, in terms of transportation. The bus systems were not developed as they are now. The interest in going to college was not as great as it is at the present time. While the move toward greater interest in going to college was certainly on the way, it was nothing like it is at the present time. Now many students plan on a college career, as well as those who desire to culminate their education at the end of the high school years. I think there are many other differences. In terms of salaries paid to school employees, there is a 1 tremendous difference. When I began many years ago, salaries for teachers were very, very low. You may be interested to know that I was very pleased to get my $1300 a year as a beginning salary in the profession. You might be interested further to know that as the depression developed and began to have its complete impact, we were not at all surprised that we were cut in salaries. I recall after I had moved to Ogden City School System, after teaching for three years in Weber County Schools, that we took a cut of about ten percent in salaries. That went along with the general economic conditions of the time, because the depression was getting a great hold on the total economy of this country. I recall very vividly that the banks were having trouble and threatened to close. The Ogden State Bank did close, and there were problems at times in having the payroll fully implemented. On one occasion we were very grateful that the Ogden City Board of Education, for example, had foresight enough to get enough cash that we could be paid at least part of our salaries for one month in cash. This was so that we would at least have something to live on in case the banks more universally failed. Referring to education there were many problems at the time. Some of the characteristic problems that exist today were completely unheard of. I cite, for example, the fact that we didn't think of segregation and integration problems in those days. We assumed that the teachers, principals, and administrators had pretty firm control of the schools without as much difficulty in disciplining students as sometimes occurs today. I think it might well be mentioned that the curriculum was probably handled in a much more formal way. There were probably fewer choices for students to make than is the case today. The pattern was more universally accepted although there were of course some elections that could be made by students. I think the interest of parents was probably not as well 2 organized as it is now. I think the Parent-Teacher Associations are better organized now than they were. So all in all there were quite a few things different in the schools of years ago, than is the case today. There have been many changes, some probably for the better and some probably not so good. The organization of schools in those days was considerably different than at the present time. For example, in the Ogden City School System when I first entered it, on the elementary level, the organization was based on a platoon system. There was a homeroom teacher that taught the basic subjects. Then there were a number of specialized subjects. I think particularly of music, of art, of library, and there may be others, where students would travel from room to room to get the services of a specialized teacher. The day was divided approximately in half, about half the time being with a regular home teacher for the basic subjects, and the other half of the time being devoted to these specialized teachers and rooms for the special subjects. It was very common in the Ogden City Schools too, for the high school to consist only of the upper two grades, the eleventh and twelfth grade. The elementary school very frequently had up to the seventh grade or in some cases, the eighth grade. It took some years before that pattern was changed significantly so that the high schools were three years and the juniors three years, and the elementary, kindergarten and the first six grades. The lunch program was significantly different. It was quite a number of years before the Federal school lunch program came into the Ogden schools. Characteristically, in the city the youngsters would go home for lunch. Now of course for those who lived so far away that they couldn't go home even in an hour, it became necessary for them to pack lunches. That was very often true in the Weber 3 school district where they had to come some distances, until the lunch program was developed. SH: What changes have occurred that are most important to you in education? TS: It would be difficult to pinpoint the changes in order of importance. But certainly a number of changes have been made that have been significant over the period of time I have been associated in the school systems. In the first place, I think I should mention that the platoon system that I found when I first went into the Ogden City Schools has long since passed into memory. As a matter of fact, one of the first projects that I undertook was to change that organization. I felt that the educators who promoted the self-contained room, which was in effect a return to a previous kind of organization were right in contending that it would be better for students than the platoon system. We were getting a concept of the importance of the whole child. That thinking had impact in changing from the platoon system to the self-contained room where a given teacher could assume the responsibility for the total educational program of the child. The theory was that if that were the case, the teacher could meet the total needs of the child better than when the program was segmented, as it had been under the platoon system. So a change was made to the self-contained room which was characteristic of educational thinking across the country at the time. In terms of personnel, another significant change that was occurring was the development of salary schedules. When I first began to teach, salary schedules were hardly known. They became talked about finally and then gradually implemented, the teacher salary schedule probably being the first one to be developed. Then other school employees, group by group, until now there are salary schedules that cover practically every category of school board employees. 4 While it takes us only a minute to say that, the tremendous number of committee meetings, the great amount of dialogue involved, the continuous thought over a period of years, that lead to the development of these salary schedules is almost beyond imagination. As a matter of fact, I suppose we still haven't reached the ultimate in salary scheduling because there is still great difference of opinion as to how a salary schedule should be set up, what factors should govern it. Even today there is much criticism of salary schedules that tend to consider only training and experience, when as a matter of fact all of us would have to admit that there are many factors that go into making an efficient, competent employee, including teachers, than simply length of service and amount of training. So the development of salary schedules has been an ongoing thing for years. I suppose it will continue until we have something better than exists for the present time. One of the things that I faced, of course, and practically every district in many states in the country, was the need for space. When I became Superintendent of schools for example, which was twenty one years before I recently retired, I found the system in dire need of additional space. The impact of the greatly increased student population following World War II was just beginning to be felt, and we had gone through a number of years without any significant amount of building because of the depression. It was difficult enough to just keep the schools open and going, let alone expanding into new buildings or replacing buildings that may well have been replaced because they were getting worn out. So as this impact reached Ogden, one of the first things I had to do as a young superintendent was develop a building program. I had to go to the people for support by approving bond issues and I suppose that if there is any one thing that stayed with me up until my retirement, it was the erection of school 5 buildings. No sooner had we caught up with the building program in a reasonable sort of way, than we had to face the necessity of replacing some of the older buildings. One of the last big projects I had before retiring as Superintendent of Ogden City Schools, was to launch a building program of considerable magnitude to replace some of the buildings that were worn out and needed to be replaced with new and modern buildings. In the days when this impact first hit us, we weren't prepared to absorb it quite as fast as expected. We had to make all sorts of improvisations to handle the students. For example, we rented rooms in churches and we set up classes in halls of school buildings. We bought houses near school buildings and revised them just a little in order to have classes in them. We set up temporary buildings and did everything possible to take care of the students and at the same time pursued our building program as fast as circumstances would permit it. You will be interested to know, I am sure, that as I came into the superintendency, the board had just authorized, at the response of parental request, kindergarten on a half-day basis through the nine months of the school term. Prior to that the practice had been to have summer kindergarten only. But even at that, Ogden was the only district in the whole area that had kindergarten of any nature. I think the closest kindergartens were Salt Lake City. So to move into the half-day, nine month kindergarten was quite an advance in Ogden. You have to remember also, that at that time first grade was held only for a half-day. So it appeared to me, the board, and people generally, that we had quite a fine program. To have kindergarten a half a day, first grade a half-day, and then move into the full day in second grade was good, but that pattern became obsolete eventually. At the suggestion of parents and because of the thinking of school people, it was decided to continue the kindergarten on a half-day 6 basis, but to have first grade a full day. This was done some years ago. Now, unless you have memories that go back a little way, you would not know but what first grade on a full day basis hadn't existed for a long time in Ogden. But I well remember when that was implemented in the school pattern. Another set of circumstances that has greatly changed the pattern of school in Ogden is the introduction of Federal programs of one kind or another, particularly in recent years. The Federal programing had had several impacts, one of course relating to buildings. We received some little help for a while on building, although our entitlement did not last for very long. But while it did last we got some help, particularly on Ben Lomond, Horace Mann and some others. Probably a greater impact in the program was the categorical programs that the Federal government promoted. These programs came into the district with mixed blessings. For example, the controls usually associated with these categorical programs were very difficult to accept in some cases. It was very difficult for the Washington D. C. planners to know exactly what the needs were in Ogden. Often it was very hard to expend money wisely under the rules in meeting the needs of the Ogden City Schools. On the whole, however, certainly the Federal programs were useful in promoting education in Ogden. The introduction of the lunch program came under my administration also, because when I became Superintendent of Schools the board was opposed to a Federal school lunch program. The board was opposed on principle as was the case in some other circumstances across the country, because Federal aid was not accepted as an unmixed blessing as it seems to be today. On principle the Ogden Board of Education questioned whether it was the right thing to do to take Federal money for school lunch program. They felt that we should take care of our own needs and not depend on the 7 Federal government. But of course the Federal lunch program had grown so greatly in the state, including Weber School District and other surrounding school districts, that it was difficult for Ogden to long remain outside the picture. The parental interest in developing a program was such that I felt that the time had arrived where we should consider it very seriously. So I went to the board and persuaded them that circumstances were such that they might well give consideration to changing the policy, which they did. We started on a program in the district as fast as we could. We could not do it over night because of personnel, buildings, (because we were still under pressure for space), and obviously we could not displace a class and put a lunch program. As such, we had to work it in as we could in terms of space and finances. There was terrific pressure on the building dollar as well as the operation dollar. As a result we took one at a time until we completed it. Another thing that happened in the Ogden City Schools that I think was of quite great significance was the introduction of television and the procurement of a channel. It may be interesting for you to know that very early when television was talked about for schools, I was interested in it. As a matter of fact, I had considerable correspondence with the Federal Communications Commission and others in an attempt to get the channel that Weber County School District has now. As I pursued that however, there was a concurrent action going on in the state, with reference to the procurement of channel seven for the Salt Lake area. It was thought that if that could be done, then probably Ogden and other districts could be served by channel seven. So I set aside my attempt to procure the channel that the Weber School District later got, and joined hands with the people in Salt Lake to get channel seven established. I attended meetings for a long time with the people of Salt 8 Lake until finally that was implemented on a state basis. When it was implemented and began to operate, it became evident that while the Ogden City School District could get a great deal of good from channel seven, it was still so far out of our control that our specific needs for television, I thought, could not be fully met. The opportunity came to acquire the present channel that Ogden City School owns, KOET. The successful attempt to secure it turned out in the long run we think, much better than if we had secured the original local channel that I had worked on. The effort to work on channel seven and get that going, delaying our attempt to get a station really redounded to our good because we got a very high frequency station which has served this school district very well. Now of course there have been other changes. It is interesting to watch, for example, our building programs over the years to see how the approaches to what is a good building have changed. You can see from observation that our first buildings were traditional. Changes occurred in each one of them until the last buildings were right down to the minute in terms of team teaching, child centered, open school buildings that compare with the finest in the land. That evolution is simply a part of the evolution of educational thinking that occurred over the years. So I often say now that Ogden schools can take care of any kind of teacher. If they want team teaching there is a place for it in Ogden. If they want traditional kind of programming, we have good substantial buildings that are more traditional. Well I have mentioned several of the changes. I would hesitate to say which are the most important, but these are some of the changes that have occurred in the years that I have been associated with the Ogden City Schools. In the organizational pattern changes, a few things probably should be mentioned. For example, the self-contained room, after having been adopted again 9 following the platoon system, turned out to have some limitations that led to innovations that modified the organizational pattern again. For example, it became evident finally that the whole pattern of teaching and the introduction of team teaching came into the picture. The development of libraries, (media centers as they are sometimes currently called) became almost a necessity. One of the things I worked on in the recent years of my administration was to get a library in every school, including the elementary schools, with a trained school librarian. This is because the educational thinking seemed to dictate in a vigorous way that the library should be the center of the school operation. It has been a very important move in the Ogden City Schools to make the library a significant part of the school program. One of the things I am very proud of is the development of these libraries, with trained school librarians in every school in the city. I practically completed that program before I had to retire. Only one or two were left, and they were taken care of in the new buildings that were under construction as I left the school system. I am pleased to, that the curriculum offerings have been greatly expanded in recent years. For example, programs for the gifted, for the underprivileged, swimming and expanded physical education programs, and expanded vocational offerings. All of these things seem to come as a natural need of this more complex society in which we live. SH: Thank you very much. 10