Oral History Program Eric Zenger Interviewed by Lorrie Rands 6 September 2013 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Eric Zenger Interviewed by Lorrie Rands 6 September 2013 Copyright © 2014 by Weber State University, Stewart Library Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description Business at the Crossroads - Ogden City is a project to collect oral histories related to changes in the Ogden business district since World War II. From the 1870s to World War II, Ogden was a major railroad town, with nine rail systems. With both east-west and north-south rail lines, business and commercial houses flourished as Ogden became a shipping and commerce hub. After World War II, the railroad business declined. Some government agencies and businesses related to the defense industry continued to gravitate to Ogden after the war—including the Internal Revenue Regional Center, the Marquardt Corporation, Boeing Corporation, Volvo-White Truck Corporation, Morton-Thiokol, and several other smaller operations. However, the economy became more service oriented, with small businesses developing that appealed to changing demographics, including the growing Hispanic population. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Zenger, Eric., an oral history by Lorrie Rands, 6 September 2013 , WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, Special Collections, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Eric Zenger September 6, 2013 Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Eric Zenger. The interview was conducted on September 6, 2013, by Lorrie Rands. Eric discusses his business and experiences with Ogden and 25th Street. LR: It is September 6, 2013, we are in Great Harvest Bread Co., talking with Eric Zenger about his business, 25th Street and Ogden in general. I’m Lorrie Rands doing the interview and Rebecca Whitesides is filming. Eric, when are where were you born? EZ: I was born in Salt Lake City, Utah. Do I have to really give my age? Way back in the 50’s. I’m a Utah boy. Where did you go to high school? Actually, growing up I moved all over the country, east coast, west coast and in between, but finally came back to Utah to go to high school at Olympus High School and college at Utah State and the U. Sorry, Weber. LR: Did you major in business? EZ: Some, but more minored in business and majored in German and geography. I liked all three of those areas of study. LR: What was your driving factor in starting this business with Great Harvest? EZ: Well, I had sold another business in Salt Lake that I owned and operated for five years and was looking about for another opportunity. I cast my net pretty wide, I looked at jobs and existing business and this and that and finally found Great Harvest, which is a franchise from Montana. After a long evaluation, that just seemed like the best fit for me. I loved their corporate philosophy and their 1 product and the way they did business and they liked me. So, we came together and decided to open a new franchise in Ogden, not in Salt Lake because the Salt Lake territory was taken, so I had to come north. LR: What brought you to 25th Street? EZ: Well, nothing brought me to 25th Street. 25th Street to Salt Lakers was pretty much an unknown quantity. I stumbled onto 25th Street. When I was doing a location search for my store, my bread company, I looked all around. It was easy to identify the up and coming retail districts as Riverdale and Harrison Boulevard and other points, and one day I think I just came over the 24th viaduct after getting off the freeway and stumbled upon 25th Street. That was my introduction to it. LR: Did this building specifically draw you? EZ: No, the district as a whole. The whole two block span just had a charm and attraction to it that immediately said something to me. LR: When did you open your business here on 25th Street? EZ: Back in 1989. In August of 1989, so it’s almost been 25 years on 25th Street. We’ve had quite a run here. In fact, it’s now becoming a second generation business, which is kind of typical to what 25th Street used to be back in the day when it was in its earlier prime. Small family businesses were run and passed from one generation to the next and that’s what’s happening with us. LR: That’s fantastic. You mentioned last time about Margaret and Daniel Hunter. How much had they done, work-wise on this building before you? 2 EZ: They had done quite a bit. To the best of my knowledge, which may not be one hundred percent accurate, they purchased about four or five buildings right here contiguous to my building—and started developing them. They had, with the exception of one, pretty much done 75-80 percent of the work. All the main floor retail spaces had been refurbished and remodeled, with the exception of the upstairs, the upstairs had not been completed. They were by and large done, not necessarily particular to our specific use as a bakery, we eventually had to come in and put a new floor in that was more durable, but the substantial part of remodeling had been completed. I think they took a large leap of faith to do that because even though Ogden City, the government, had confidence in the historic district and could see what it could become—because they as professional planners had seen it happen in other parts of the country—I don’t think Weber County and Ogden City residents were quite ready for or recognized the opportunity of 25th Street yet. They were early pioneers who risked a lot and in some cases sacrificed a lot to get things going here. LR: So, Margaret and Daniel Hunter, they had spent so much money that they ended up losing the building is that correct? EZ: To the best of my knowledge, yes, they lost not only my building, but a couple of others back to the bank, so they weren’t able to profit from their endeavor. We ended up purchasing from the bank. LR: Once you opened, how did you draw business to 25th Street? 3 EZ: I think it was not so much my personal efforts as the quality of the product and the company that we represented. It was also the fact that we married a really neat, unique concept, (whole wheat bread wasn’t being offered by and large in Utah) to a great historic building and district. We had this great product with a wonderful way of delivering it. Everybody who came through the door got a free slice of bread with butter and frequently older customers would say, “Boy, this brings back memories of the way it used to be.” So anyway, the fact that we had this product and a company that had a good name, and then we married that with a historic building created community buzz. So, can you imagine this warm smelling bakery with free slices to everybody who walked through the door, in a unique old building that evoked certain memories or impulses or emotions in people? Awareness of us just quickly spread by word of mouth. Sure, we did a little advertising and such. One thing that we did that was kind of our gorilla marketing campaign, we took out free loaves of bread on wooden bread boards to various businesses with a knife and a big block of butter and a honey bear and so forth. Right before lunch at about 11:00am when it was hot out of the oven so it really had an aroma, we would take those to various new businesses and say, “Hi, this is our new business, here’s a coupon, can you slice this for your customers as they come in your salon or your store and let them know who we are and give them one of our coupons?” They were more than happy to do that because it was a little treat for their customers, something out of the ordinary. By that means and others, we were able to get word of mouth moving quickly and people just 4 started to show up. That just worked and before we knew it we were getting busier and busier with each successive month. LR: How many businesses were on 25th Street when you moved in? EZ: Not many, maybe half a dozen at most in the whole two block stretch. It might have been a few more than that, because there were some of the old bars that kind of represented the earlier history of 25th Street, but speaking more to newer businesses that were part of the comeback of 25th Street, there were only maybe four, five or six. Thomas Hardy’s Salon, run by Thomas Hardy, and Trends and Traditions, run by Mary Gaskell, and Panache Interiors, run by Peggy Holmes, and the Bistro Restaurant run by I don’t know who at the time (and it’s changed ownership several times since), but those were really the only players on the street. There was very little foot traffic and a lot of vacancies. LR: You mentioned before about being on the Downtown Ogden Association. What were some of the changes you helped to make? EZ: Well, the Downtown Ogden Association was trying to, of course, reinvigorate downtown Ogden. Outside of the Ogden City Mall, which was between 24th and 22nd Streets, there wasn’t a whole lot of street side activity, it was all inside what everyone called the fortress. One of the first initiatives I thought we needed to pursue was changing traffic patterns in downtown Ogden. Two of the major thoroughfares in downtown were one-way streets, Lincoln and Grant, going north and south and then another two, 20th and 21st Street, that went east and west were also one-way streets. I felt strongly that it needed to be changed and that it 5 was an inhibitor to free flow and convenient access to the businesses, especially 25th Street. The Downtown Ogden Association let me run with that and we built up a plea and put that before the city council and they agreed with us and decided against their own planning department and traffic engineer to change those streets back to two-way streets to facilitate easier movement of traffic. We also encouraged them to implement more angle parking because it increased the number of parking spaces available compared to parallel parking. They weren’t quite as accommodating there, but in subsequent years they have designated more spaces on more streets in downtown Ogden to angled parking. I thought Ogden City Government was pretty receptive and responsive. LR: That’s great. EZ: I might say something while you collect your thoughts about why I chose 25th Street. The company I worked with, Great Harvest Franchising, had a very liberal and open franchising policy. They aren’t like a typical franchise, in fact, they call themselves the “unfranchise,” like the “Un-cola, 7-up.” They ask their franchisees to do very few things really and then otherwise, they say, “Anything else is possible, do what you want,” which is so uncharacteristic of franchises in general. In locating my business, I wanted my business to have my imprint on it. Most franchises will have very specific guidelines for where you can locate and what the traffic counts have to be and so on and so forth and how much visibility you have to have and all these other criteria. Great Harvest had some criteria too, but one of their criteria was identity and that spoke to me a lot. They wanted a 6 location that had identity, which meant that you could tell any person in Weber County where your store was and if you could tell them that in just two, maybe three, words, it would conjure up a mental image in their minds that would stick, then that was a good location that had identity. As opposed to some address on Wall Avenue or Washington Boulevard or Harrison Boulevard, that if they tried to recall that later they probably wouldn’t be able to. They’d figure it was within a mile or two section of one of those roads, not a block or two. So, historic 25th Street offered that. Everybody in Weber County knew what historic 25th Street was, it was the old red light, wino district. It was the old rip-roaring forties and fifties, the old Junction City railroad soldier traffic from all over the country and war time traffic and all of that is what constituted 25th Street. People knew and understood that, so if I had met anybody anywhere, trying to drum up business for our store and said, “We’re on historic 25th Street,” that’s all I had to say and they could find it. Also, I chose 25th Street too because I lived in Europe for a couple of years and have been in other places where I felt a deep appreciation for a community that had identity and history and community. I wanted that for my place of business. Even if it meant that I had to sacrifice some sales and profits to be there. I would rather be in a place where, when I got out of bed each morning, I wanted to go there, rather than someplace I could go just to make more money and have a business. I wanted to not just be in business, I wanted to have a lifestyle and to me 25th Street enabled me to do that, to go someplace I wanted to be in a place where I felt community with other small businesses. 7 Many of which own their buildings, which isn’t always an option in other retail districts that are primarily run by developers and large commercial interests. We could own our own buildings and so could my neighbor and the next neighbor and we could walk to the post office, walk to the bank, walk to our accounting office, all of these things it felt just like where I wanted to be. That, to me, was more important than maybe locating my business somewhere where I might have made greater sales and more profits. LR: When you originally moved in, how many Ogdenites thought it would be a profitable location? EZ: I can’t say that I know for sure, but we did frequently hear comments when we initially opened that made us think that we had, perhaps, made the wrong choice. Many of our first customers had said, “Why did you choose to locate here? You really should have been up on the east bench or out south or by Smith’s Foods or somewhere,” other than where we were and many would look at us with kind concern and say, “We hope you make it here,” implying that they didn’t think we would. Here we are 25 years later and still successful and thriving. I just don’t think that local folks at the time were quite ready to see historic 25th Street and its old reputation change into something new and prosperous. Maybe it took a few people from outside the area coming in and recognizing what a gem Ogden had in 25th Street to help some of the locals realize that this was something they had taken for granted. LR: How long after you opened do you think other businesses started to come into 25th Street? 8 EZ: It happened, I think, actually fairly quickly, within two or three years. A lot of people started showing interest and some of the iconic or landmark businesses that are on the street today started showing up such as, Rooster’s restaurant and The City club and a few others, La Ferovia restaurant. They all started to take notice and started investing in 25th Street. It was fairly quickly that things started to happen. LR: Once that happened did you notice a change in the atmosphere of 25th Street? EZ: Absolutely. It seemed that, fairly quickly, Ogden City residents and Weber County residents quickly started to see what potential this street had and started to appreciate the good vibe that was developing here. LR: How much has that changed since you came in 1989? EZ: It’s been pretty significant. Nowadays it’s hard to find a good spot on the street, whereas at that time it was pretty easy. Nowadays, the parking is always full and is actually a concern. We’d love to see Ogden City maybe address that somehow with increased parking options. From some of those practical standpoints like parking and so forth, it’s changed significantly and vacancy standpoints it has changed significantly. Property values have certainly been boosted two or three or who knows, maybe even fourfold since we first came here. LR: When a business moves out of 25th Street, how long does it take before that building is snatched up? EZ: It’s all relative. Even, believe it or not, on a two block stretch of road and on a south side and a north side of the street, the old adage of, “Location, location, 9 location,” still applies. It can be as little as a waiting list, someone is waiting at the door for someone to leave, or it could even take six or eight months. Especially if the building has not been remodeled and updated. LR: When you first moved in, there’s lots of talk about tunnels, was there anything in your basement that maybe hinted of that? EZ: Well, in our basements, they were dirt floors and rock foundations. They hadn’t really bolstered, in doing the remodeling, they hadn’t changed much of that because they’d stood for a hundred years. I guess they figured that they would stand for another hundred years without drastically changing the foundations. We didn’t find any tunnels, but we do have old whiskey barrels that are part of our foundation. I guess those were meant for concealing things in. The building next door to the Great Harvest Bakery where the Queen Bee gift shop is, we found little fire pits still in the basement with old box springs and mattresses where, apparently, I was told, that gypsies had still been living within five or ten years of our assuming ownership of that building at 270 25th Street. That would have been even in the early to mid-eighties. Folks were still camping out down there and making fires and all of the floor joints are charred black, so apparently quite a few fires had been made there. Some of the rudimentary furnishings that they used were still there. LR: In the upstairs was there any evidence of what went on? EZ: Upstairs? No, that was really just a stripped out vacant space. I was able, though, to find an old newspaper article dated from 1949 or 1950 that spoke about our building in particular, naming it by the address, showing a sheriff’s raid 10 had been conducted there and that a lot of gaming equipment and illegal alcohol was being sold out of that location. It had two or three pictures of the stuff that had been confiscated and laid out on tables, showing a little bit about the history of this building. LR: I actually found that and it was fun to read, so that was cool that it happened here. Is there anything else you can think of about your being here that you’d like to add? EZ: Well, not really, I’d just say that I don’t regret our decision one bit. The sense of place that we feel here is tremendous. We’ve had good economic success here. The people of Ogden City and Weber County have received us with open arms and Ogden is a great place to do business. Despite some of the perhaps negative attitudes that some local Ogdenites had about their own town and it being a good place to do business, it is a good place to do business. 25th Street is a great place to do business. We love being here and despite some of the difficulties in parking and such, I wouldn’t be anywhere else between Salt Lake and the Idaho border other than right here. We just love being a part of history and being a part of the community and we love the reaction that our customers seem to get out of it too. They like coming to a place that has history and identity and personality. We look forward to another 25 years. LR: Do you find that there’s a sense of a more family oriented space than…? EZ: Absolutely. All day long, mothers with children walk in. Everybody seems to be comfortable down there now. Whereas, in the earlier days, even for five or ten years after we opened, people were quite reluctant still to come down. Not 11 everyone was, because we were thriving, but many who hadn’t tried us yet or who hadn’t been to 25th Street in 20 or 30 years, were still reluctant to come down and they had to be persuaded. Now, it’s a place where families and children are everywhere. In fact, photographers, almost a day doesn’t go by that a photographer doesn’t show up with a wedding couple to take pictures. It’s just become that kind of an environment now. RW: No. I’m just a huge fan. What’s your favorite bread that you make here? EZ: My favorite bread is probably the simplest and most common bread that we sell and that’s our honey whole wheat bread. It just has such a rich, moist, nutty full flavor that you can eat it every day of your life and not get tired of it. LR: The second building, you were leasing it, is that correct? EZ: What happened is we bought our original bakery building in 1989 and then Margaret Hunter, who hadn’t quite developed the space to the west, 270, it was run down and the ceiling was caving in and the floors were caving in because water had been penetrating for years and maybe decades. She offered to sell that to us undeveloped about three or four years later and we decided to take her up on that. So, we purchased it and we remodeled it top to bottom and initially leased it out to other business owners who opened gift shops or English tea shops of one form or another. Finally, we opened our own deli operation here maybe in about 2004 or 2005. We operated them as independent, separate businesses for three or four years and then finally breached the wall between the two buildings. We breached 12 the heavy, thick, brick wall with a substantial opening about eight feet across and eight or ten feet high to allow free flow of people between the two and it was a real good decision. Most of these buildings are very narrow. In fact, ours are only about 17 feet wide so they kind of can be a little bit claustrophobic, but when we put that opening between the two, somehow it just made the space really work. It made each individual side seem even wider, like they were 20 or 25 feet even though they were still 17 feet. It really made everything much more open and free flowing. LR: You mentioned that it’s turned into a family, two generation business. How has that happened? EZ: Well, my son, several of my children, I have four children and three of the four at one time of another worked in the bakery as kids trying to put themselves through college or what have you. The environment just really clicked for one of my kids. He’s just made for it, my son, Christopher. He’s very outgoing, very creative, and when I got to the point where I was looking to scale back and looking for someone to fill my shoes, he expressed interest and I gladly received that interest because he is made for it. He knows how to engage people and to serve people and he has a passion for product quality and organization that’s needed in small business management. It was just a natural fit, so he’s the man now and we’ll be going forward and who knows how long that might be. LR: Is he doing both sides? EZ: No, he does the bakery side. On the other side, where the Queen Bee is, it used to be a full service deli occupying the entire space, but in the last few years we’ve 13 modified that a little bit and consolidated the deli up front a little bit more and opened the rest of it to a unique gifts shop. It’s primary emphasis, however, is books and chocolate and then it does have other gift items. My daughter, Hailey, who is awaiting news as to whether her husband gets accepted into medical school, is running that business. So, it’s become quite a little family operation. LR: There has to be a certain sense of pride in knowing that your children are continuing your legacy. EZ: Yes, they are good, hard-working kids who are pursuing good things and that’s neat. I’m not just saying this to say this, but I honestly feel that 25th Street is partially responsible for that—not just me as their father and as a business entrepreneur. 25th Street just kind of breeds that kind of desire in people and families. My children love this street as much as I do, if not more, because they’ve grown up with it and they appreciate it. They wanted to be part of it too. Even if it might only be for a temporary span of a few years or what have you, they want to be part of it too. Being able to own my own buildings and control my own destiny as far as landlord ship and so forth, enabled me to make that opportunity available to them. They love the prospect of doing that. LR: That’s great. I wish I had more questions. I’ve kind of wracked my brain with everything that I had. I appreciate your time and it sounds to me like you were almost instrumental in bringing business back to 25th Street. EZ: Well, I don’t know if that’s necessarily true. We did do our part and a lot of folks have credited us with being one of the early ingredients that helped bring in more foot traffic and vehicular traffic to 25th Street, in more than just a few numbers, 14 but in larger numbers and to re-introduce people to 25th Street. So, we’ll take a little credit for that, but there are certainly others and some who were here before us like Thomas Hardy and Mary Gaskell and others. We certainly feel like we contributed something to it. LR: That’s great. I thank you for your time and your willingness to sit and do this with us. EZ: Thank you. 15