Oral History Program Judith P. Mitchell Interviewed by Ruby Licona 17 May 2013 i Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Judith P. Mitchell Interviewed by Ruby Licona 17 May 2013 Copyright © 2014 by Weber State University, Stewart Library ii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description The Weber State University Oral History Project began conducting interviews with key Weber State University faculty, administrators, staff and students, in Fall 2007. The program focuses primarily on obtaining a historical record of the school along with important developments since the school gained university status in 1990. The interviews explore the process of achieving university status, as well as major issues including accreditation, diversity, faculty governance, changes in leadership, curricular developments, etc. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Mitchell, Judith P., an oral history by Ruby Licona, 17 May 2013, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Judith P. Mitchell ca. 1984 Judith P. Mitchell May 17, 2013 Abstract: This is an oral history interview with Judith P. Mitchell conducted on May 17, 2013 by Ruby Licona. Judith discusses her career at Weber State from 1983 to 2011 in the Teacher Education program. RL: I’m Ruby Licona and I am on the faculty here in the Stewart Library. Today is May 17, 2013 and we are speaking with Judith P. Mitchell, who retired from the Teacher Education program in 2011. She originally came to Weber State in 1983. We are looking forward to speaking with her and getting a good perspective on her years here at Weber. Our meeting this morning is in the Waterstradt Seminar in the Special Collections Library. Good morning, Judy, how are you? JM: Good morning. I am fine, thank you. RL: I am so glad you agreed to do this. We are trying to capture as many perspectives on Weber State and its history as possible and your name came up as someone that we should spend some time talking to. Why don’t we begin with you telling us a little bit about your background, where you grew up and what might have drawn you to teaching? JM: I grew up at least part of the time in Ogden. My parents were from Ogden. When I was a child, my father went to medical school. We lived in Portland, Oregon for about seven years and in Philadelphia for a year while he completed his education. He was an ophthalmologist here in Ogden. We came back to Ogden when I was nine years old. I started the fifth grade at Polk School, went through the Ogden School District system and graduated from Ogden High School. Page 1 of 35 Afterward, I went to Stanford University and spent four years there. My major was music. It was a wonderful background and I’ve never regretted it for a minute because it probably did more to enhance my life and my children’s lives than any other education I could have had at the time. I had lots of literature, music, art history and history classes. It was a nice foundation for whatever I decided to do next. After college, I came back to Ogden and went to work for Amalgamated Sugar. Those were the days when old Mr. Benning was still in charge of Amalgamated Sugar. He was an interesting man who still had the secretarial girls ironing the carbon paper so that it could be reused. He also had these little things that went on the end of the pencil so that they could use the pencil down to the last stub. I think he bought Amalgamated Sugar at a penny a share, so he came through all of those really hard years and he knew how to squeeze a nickel. After that, I was recruited by Bill Eccles to work for First Security Corporation as his executive secretary. First Security then moved to Salt Lake, so I moved to Salt Lake as well. At that time, I became reacquainted with the man I later married. He was a year or two older than I and I had known his sister. I have three children. Of course, they are all adults now and I have five grandchildren. When I was having my first baby, I quit working and I stayed home. When my two oldest children got into school, I was so interested in the process of how children learn to read that I thought, “Here I am with a Stanford Baccalaureate Degree and I could just whip down to Polk School and teach reading.” I discovered that I had to have a state Page 2 of 35 license, so I came to Weber State. They accepted all my liberal education credits and I had to take the teacher education courses. I think I had to take ten hours of science which I had carefully avoided in college previously. They awarded me a Baccalaureate Degree in Science and then I went on to teach in the public schools in Weber School District. I taught at Marlon Hills Elementary and Valley View Elementary and ended up out in Hooper. I loved Weber School District. They gave me opportunities to learn and do different things. I’m not sure that the educational standards of the parents were necessarily the most important thing, but they were good parents and they were very supportive of the school and of teachers. The children were lovely children and were wonderful to teach. I had never spent any time in a farm community before and at that time Hooper was a farm community. Many raised sugar beets as a cash crop. In the fall, there would be mountains of sugar beets waiting to be picked up. I earned a Master’s Degree from Utah State University in education and my thesis was on reading. Then, I decided to do a doctorate and did that at the University of Utah. I knew I liked the public schools. I liked teaching and I liked the kids, but I am restless by nature and I thought what I really wanted to do was teach in higher education because I thought I could make a difference. RL: Was it a Ph.D. or an Ed.D. that you earned at the University of Utah? JM: It was a Ph.D. I like going to school. I think most of us that are in the education field like going to school. We like to teach, but we also like to be taught. So, when Page 3 of 35 the opportunity came up for me to come to Weber on a trade for a year, I was delighted. My district had recommended that since I had the doctorate. RL: So you came here on a trade? How did that work? JM: Karen Neilson was a professor in the Teacher Education program and her field was secondary education and literacy. Of course, I was an elementary person, but that made little mind. It was my first experience with taking somebody else’s course and somebody else’s notes and trying to figure out what it was that I was supposed to teach. She would have things in her notes like, “Come tomorrow and it will be a big surprise about this or that.” I would think, “What is the big surprise that I’m going to come up with?” She extended her contract with the DODS schools, so I had an opportunity to come to Weber. This was at the time of the WILKITS. The WILKITS were packets of materials and students moved through them at their own pace. Many of us from traditional education settings had difficulty with this notion because there were no set classes and we met with students individually. For some students it worked wonderfully and for others it didn’t work well at all. RL: Was that something that was just here at Weber, or was that a trend? JM: It was a new trend across the country in some ways and people came from all over to see the programs at Weber. RL: Was it solely in education? JM: Yes, it was only in education. A group of professors in Teacher Education had come to Weber at about the same time and they decided they could develop this program. They received a big federal grant so that they could be freed up for an Page 4 of 35 entire year to develop all the program materials. The thing they didn’t really have time to do was to develop the assessment materials that went with it. I went through this program when I came to Weber to get a license to teach. For me, it was good. I’m quite self-motivated and I balance my time well, but for many students it was a nightmare. There were no deadlines so you just moved through it at your own pace. RL: That has a similarity to some of our online courses now, doesn’t it? JM: Absolutely. RL: You have students that are very motivated and jump right in. I’ve had students try to turn in all of the assignments in the first week of an eight week block. I tell them, “No, we need to go through some things first.” JM: Yes, it is the same idea. As I said, there were no set classes, so you’d just make an appointment with your professor when you were ready to be checked out of that particular module. I think they transported those modules all over the world. There was a big program in the Middle East and Blaine Parkinson and Harley Adamson made many trips. The college received a big national award for the program. It was cutting edge at the time. RL: We did have people from Weber who were involved with opening up a university in the Middle East. JM: That’s right. I think Blaine was one of them and he was dean of the College of Education at one time. As some of us came to campus, we looked at teaching and learning differently and felt the need to have more set classes where we saw more than one student at a time. It was very time consuming for the faculty to Page 5 of 35 meet one-on-one with students. By the end of the fifth or sixth year after I came, I didn’t see any more modules. RL: Were they just kind of eased out? JM: They were. People had different feelings about them. Like anything else, if you’ve had a hand in developing something you’re a real advocate. RL: You have more ownership of it. JM: Absolutely. RL: Who were some of your colleagues when you came here? JM: Some of them have been here a long time. Luan Ferrin, Jimmie Merrill, Keith Burnett, and Burdett Johnson all came to Weber at about the same time. RL: You mention a lot of men. Were there not as many women in education at that time or just not in higher education? JM: When I went to work for Weber district, there wasn’t a single woman administrator in Weber School District. That’s a big school district. I think there were a few more women in Ogden School District. As a child, I had a woman principal and it wasn’t uncommon at all. Later, it seemed like you didn’t see many women in administration. We saw a lot of women teachers and still do, but not too many administrators. RL: There were some women in upper level positions during World War II as a result of the men being gone, but then I think it reversed. JM: Yes. I’m sure it did. It was pretty much a group of men. There were two or three women and they had been here a long time. They had been here at the time for this development. Page 6 of 35 RL: Did the men help to mentor you or was it more adversarial? JM: It wasn’t adversarial. I’ll have to say that Don Sharpes was the one who really sat me down and said, “Now, this is how you do your vitae and how you keep your records and your file. Oh by the way, the ladies room is down there.” RL: That’s essential orientation. JM: I didn’t find that any one colleague did as much mentoring as they might have. Cordell Perkes hired me. He was a chair at the time. He was a very good colleague and was helpful. Dick Jones was the dean, at the time, in the College of Education. He was also very helpful as far as I was concerned. When Dick was named Dean of the College of Education, there were two other faculty members that aspired to be dean, but they were not selected. I think Bob Smith was the Vice President of Academic Affairs, the position now call Provost. He made the choice and I think Dean Jones had a hard time because there were a lot of good ‘ol boys who felt they were cheated and that they should have the position. They didn’t like the way Dick ran the finances. I’m not sure it would have mattered what he did or how he did it, they wouldn’t have liked it. For me, as a new faculty member, he was a good dean. He gave me a lot of opportunities to do different kinds of things and I appreciated that. Cordell Perkes had come in not too long before I and he was very supportive of changes and was looking for new ways to do things and understood that there’s a freedom in being an academic. I think that one of the difficulties with the WILKIT system was the fact that there wasn’t any academic Page 7 of 35 freedom in terms of how we did things in a classroom. That kind of flew in the face of what most of us believed. RL: You came in 1983. When I arrived in 1990, we had three Master’s programs. That would have been just seven years after you got here. I understand that you were one of the ones that established the master’s program in education. JM: Well, not really. When I came, the Master’s in Education was a combined program with Utah State University. There were three people from USU and three from Weber that sat on a steering committee. Within a year or so, I did do that, which was wonderful and it taught me a lot about the program. Weber faculty members were doing most of the teaching and that gave us some grounds for saying that it should be Weber’s program since we were doing the work with the students and teaching the classes. Don Sharpes was hired to head up that combination of faculty from the two universities and to run the program. I did have that nice opportunity to get in from the beginning on the whole thing. When the program was finally declared independent, I did direct the master’s program for about 13 or 14 years. RL: Maybe that’s where I got the impression that you had helped to establish it. You were in on the ground floor though. JM: Yes. At the beginning, I had that opportunity along with the chair and somebody else. I was Chair of Elementary Education during some of that time when we were still a part of Utah State’s program. Page 8 of 35 RL: What other kinds of things were happening on the campus that you might have been involved with early on? There were some changes happening in the 1970’s and 1980’s with the establishment of the Faculty Senate. JM: That must have been earlier because when I came, there were stories about Joe Bishop wiring the Faculty Senate room where we held meetings. The reason it all came out was because somebody went to a little party after the Faculty Senate meeting and there was a lot of information that was out. When I came they were still reeling from President Bishop and the kinds of things that went on while he was president. I think he was a man who was very suspicious about what faculty might do. RL: From what I understand, he was trying to pull in the reins at a time when the Faculty Senate was starting to gain more academic freedom and more faculty involvement and control. JM: No question. When I got involved in Faculty Senate, it was one of the best things that happened to me academically. For one thing, I worked with awfully interesting people. Secondly, the Faculty Senate had gained a great deal of power working with Rod Brady. RL: I believe he left in about 1987 or 1988. JM: Then Stephen Nadauld came. We became a university at that point. RL: That’s right. That happened toward the end of 1990. JM: There were a lot of changes at the university. We were suddenly looking at ourselves differently. I think there had been an attitude that it was just an extension of Harrison High. Part of that grew out of how faculty looked at Page 9 of 35 themselves and how they looked at the school, not so much the townspeople perhaps. RL: Recently, I’ve heard a couple of things on television that have grated on my nerves. There was a young man on one of the news programs that grew up in Ogden. He was presenting an award of some kind and asked the young woman where she was going to be going to college and she said, “Weber State.” He said, “Oh, Harrison High School.” If I had been there I think I would’ve throttled him. Not too long after that I heard someone on KUER, University of Utah’s radio station, referring to us as Weber State College. I thought, “We’ve been Weber State University for 22 years now. Attitudes have to change sometime and people like you need to be taken to the wood shed.” JM: In many ways faculty were their own worst enemies because they were the ones who perpetuated it. It was a shame. Suddenly, university status did a great deal for Weber in terms of attitudes. At the time, Weber State College was the biggest four year college in the United States granting baccalaureate degrees. RL: They had a large enrollment. JM: Exactly. RL: There were a lot of things that were attractive then that still are now. The trend to try and keep classes smaller and community involvement and different things that have been developed here on campus are still attractive. When we were going through the process to become a university there was a lot of squawking from University of Utah and Utah State University about something being written in that would prevent Weber State from becoming a doctoral granting university Page 10 of 35 and that there were not to be massive numbers of graduate degrees. We haven’t grown greatly, but we do have nine graduate degrees now. Certainly, the accent has been on programs that add to the workforce and meet the need of not just the immediate community, but of the state with the emphasis on providing an educated workforce. I guess that’s kind of an extension of starting out your program as a Utah State program. JM: I think that’s true. The other thing that’s interesting is that if you look at the graduation statistics at Weber, half of them are still two year degrees. They are not baccalaureate degrees at all. RL: Some students do go on to get their baccalaureate. JM: A state the size of Utah could hardly afford two research universities. One of the things I think the Board of Regents has done especially well is that they have taken a look at programs and tried to avoid duplication. There is one medical school in Utah and no dental school. There’s one law school. I think those kinds of things make sense because a state the size of Utah really can’t afford to run two medical schools or two law schools. RL: Brigham Young University does have a law school. It’s privately funded, but even so, it is a situation where we’ve got a couple million people in Utah. JM: It’s growing, heaven knows. It’s a tiered system. California has the same kind of tiered system. You have your research universities and you have your state universities and it seems that’s where the growth is happening, perhaps more than we need it right now. Utah Valley University is just huge and Southern Utah is a master’s granting university again. Page 11 of 35 RL: Of course, Dixie has gone from a two-year program to a master’s granting university. JM: Price is a satellite for Utah State which is different, but the fact that Dixie is getting university status in many ways is rather surprising. A lot of the people in St. George are snowbirds, but apparently they seem to think they have a population to support a university. RL: It is the same administrator down there that helped Weber State become a university. JM: Yes, Stephen Nadauld is there. It’s interesting, I think, that Utah has done a pretty good job in figuring most of this out. I have great respect for the University of Utah and Utah State University and they have significant programs that are highly rated and they should be. I am proud of Weber. When I look at what’s happened in the last couple years, I think about what happened with the music department. RL: There’s a new advertisement showing our resident piano prodigy that says, “Chose Weber State Over Julliard.” When you see that it picks you up. JM: It makes you proud. Fan Ya’s success has resulted in more students coming for the music program because of how well this young woman has done. RL: She’s got the support of the administration. JM: No question about it. It has been helpful. On top of that, I’ve never seen a girl or a boy work harder than she does. She’s earned every inch of it. RL: We also have a top-notch nursing program. Getting back to the College of Education, are there students that you had in those early years that you have Page 12 of 35 learned about their accomplishments and whom you feel got the basis for them here? JM: Absolutely. That first year I taught at Weber, I taught secondary students. Depending on their major, many were a challenge in a literacy course. In a lot of other courses they were as well and the students would say, “Well, in our majors we never write.” It was a challenge for me. One of my very finest students was Jeff Stephens, who is now superintendent of Weber School District. He got his master’s here and he went off and got his doctorate. There are many that I see who are school principals, wonderfully successful classroom teachers, and reading coaches. I’ve been teaching the level two reading coaching class for about five or six years now and most of them have Master’s degrees when they come back to get this extra certification. They are the cream of the crop. They’re bright, hard-working and they make a huge difference in school. RL: They come back to Weber State, and I don’t think that’s necessarily just for the location. JM: I don’t either, although that plays a role. RL: I think they are looking for a quality program. JM: I think so. Weber has made a huge effort to maintain the class sizes. I think the faculty reaches out to students in good ways. There are not classes that are taught by students who do not speak English which is a huge advantage. One of my boys did a doctorate at the University of Utah and in the last year he said, “It’s a do-it-yourself thing. This fellow doesn’t speak any English at all and it really is a do-it-yourself educational program.” That doesn’t happen at Weber. Faculty Page 13 of 35 teach the classes, which I think matters. I think our graduates that are out in the field tend to think, “I did well as an undergraduate at Weber. I’ll go back and do some graduate work there.” One of the things I am most proud of was that in our Master of Education program, we maintained high standards. Students did a thesis or a project which was very scholarly. Everybody at that stage knows how to take classes and how to pass classes. The thing that really separates the men from the boys is doing some research and writing about it. I’m proud of that. I think that our master’s program in education can stand up to anybody’s. RL: The emphasis at Weber has changed somewhat in the last 20 years and there’s more of an emphasis for the faculty to have more scholarship and research involvement. That still hasn’t changed their role with the students. JM: You’re absolutely right. RL: Certainly, Weber has won some kudos for bringing the National Undergraduate Research program here to Weber. Also, the Undergraduate Literature Conference we have every year is still used as a cookie cutter model for other places. In Teacher Education, you had the ISTE international group of people here from Australia, New Zealand, Europe, and Africa. That has to be a feather in you cap. JM: I think so. Along that whole line is that the College of Education has managed their endowment well and it has given faculty opportunities to attend conferences in a variety of places both in this country and abroad. They’ve had opportunities to make contacts with scholars and teachers and that’s been valuable. Page 14 of 35 RL: Has Teacher Education done anything in terms of cooperative programs? Are there sister universities or programs that you’ve maintained? JM: I think the one thing I can think about is when I first came to Weber, one of the faculty members originally came from Arizona and she had done a lot of work with Native Americans on the reservations. She was a really brilliant lady and her field was reading. When she came to Weber, she wrote some grants and we ended up taking our teacher education program to Blanding. I was the new kid on the block, so I taught quite a bit in Blanding and Bluff, which was an eye-opener for me. Most of them were Navajo students seeking education degrees in order to teach. At that time in Blanding, there was an elementary school and I would say maybe 80 percent of the youngsters were Native American children. There wasn’t a single aid, teacher, or administrator that was Native American. In Bluff, I think 98 percent of the children were Native American kids and there not a single teacher or aid that was Native American. We took that program down for a number of years and we trained a number of teachers, which I think changed the whole educational environment down there. Some of them didn’t end up in teaching, but ended up in federal agencies where their educational background was valued. RL: They advanced beyond what had been available previously. JM: It was interesting because the way the Pell Grants worked then was that they got the money no matter if they completed a class or not. Quarter after quarter, you’d have some of the same people in the class because they never finished a class, but they got their Pell Grant so that they could go to school. It also supported Page 15 of 35 them for food, rent, and all of their living expenses. The Navajo culture is very matriarchal and many of the men didn’t work or there wasn’t work for them. There were high rates of alcoholism. The women would come to class and the men would stand along the back wall like, “Don’t you teach my wife anything, it’ll change the world.” Many of the women were very ambitious and looked at their children and thought, “It’s going to be up to me or these kids are going to end up like their not very good dad.” We had quite a bit of success with that. Many times, these teachers would come up in the summer to take classes on the campus. They’d bring their kids and live in the dorms. It was a big sacrifice for them. It was wonderful for us. Certainly, it was an opportunity for me, who came from a background where I knew very little about Native American populations. When I went to college, it was very un-diverse. We were mostly white, middle-class kind of people. RL: We’ve been lucky at Weber that several of our presidents have put an emphasis on diversity and unity. I know when I got here, I started looking around at our student body and someone had mentioned that Weber and Ogden School Districts were something like 25 percent Hispanic, Latino, etc. When I looked around on campus, there were fewer than one percent of our students that fit into that category. Certainly, it’s not up to 20 or 25 percent, but we are more between 5 and 10 percent now. JM: Exactly. Families that perhaps never anticipated college for their kids are looking at education differently. Page 16 of 35 RL: We are certainly seeing a lot more brown faces, Asian students, Pacific Islanders, etc. I think that changes the flavor of the University in the right direction. In regard to that, you started here when we had President Brady and when he left Stephen Naduald came and then Paul Thompson and F. Ann Milner. That was a big feather in Weber’s cap too, having a female president. JM: She was a very successful female president. It was at a time when Eastern Utah had hired a woman who ran through the money like water through the creek. When she left, that little college was in horrible condition because the money had been spent. I never went to a conference anywhere in the United States that she wasn’t there. I would think, “This isn’t your field. Why would you be interested in this?” Ann came with an excellent background and she’d been well-trained by Paul. She was a very successful woman not only on our campus, but across the state and with the legislature. RL: She was well-respected. JM: Absolutely. It is a feather in Weber’s cap. No question. RL: As far as the different administrators and the type of ship they sailed in terms of their styles, did that affect your career in any way? JM: I think it did. When I was active in the Faculty Senate and I was faculty chair for three years and co-chair for three years. RL: You were the second woman to do that? JM: Yes. I think Rosemary Conover was the first one. I had a good six year run, which was nice. Paul Thompson was the president and he very much believed in shared governance. He gave us lots of opportunities to be heard and he was Page 17 of 35 good to work with in that he felt that there were a number of things about which the faculty needed to have an equal voice, to have a say and to be able to ask the hard questions. For most of us at that time working in faculty governance, we had great opportunities. RL: I think he was more willing to accept some of the suggestions coming out of the Senate. I remember at one point I was chairing the Academic Standards Committee and I was given a list of 13 or 14 things that needed to be accomplished. That was about the time of the Gulf War and we were having to come up with policies regarding students who were pulled out of class and sent to the Middle East and what were we going to do with them when they came back as far as tuition or letting them finish classes. There were a lot of major things that were being determined then that our committee was involved with. We ended up coming up with the tiered admission thing so that we could still meet the mission of the University, but take on the new issues that we were facing. I think that was a time when people did have a voice. As far as your involvement in heading up the Faculty Senate, were there major things occurring that you needed to deal with? What were they and what were some of the outcomes? JM: When I started in affairs of Faculty Senate, Tom Burton was the chair. He appointed me to the Curriculum Committee and that was both curriculum and general education at the time. RL: So you came in as a new faculty member first? JM: Yes. Then I became chair of the Curriculum Committee. At the time, curriculum and general education were combined into one committee. Of course, we didn’t Page 18 of 35 have the technology, so everything would be delivered to my office and there would be a stack of papers to read through. Those were very different times. I look back at the number of trees we must have killed. Tom was a good mentor and a good trainer. Curriculum and General Education was a great place to start and became something that I continued to work in while I was at Weber, until the last few years. One of the things that happened during the time I was in Faculty Senate was the big conversion to semesters from quarters. I still maintain that most of my students, even some of my graduate students, have a ten week attention span, not a 15 or 16 week attention span. The state said it would cheaper and of course it wasn’t cheaper, it cost tons of money to make the conversion. It was far more complex than any of us thought. We made a lot of presentations about the change and why not. At the time, I was on the State Committee for General Education and that was a wonderful time because it was the first faculty committee that was under the Board of Regents. Each of the colleges and universities was represented. I was on that for about 15 years and we did a lot of things. The legislature decided the institution needed to have some common numbers, particularly for general education courses. We did a lot of that without wrecking people’s individual programs. Most students in Utah at some time or another attend another university somewhere in the state. With some common numbers in those undergraduate courses in general education, the transfer was easy. For me, personally, working with the faculty leaders from across the state was a wonderful experience. They were the brightest of the bright. It gave me access to Page 19 of 35 friendships and acquaintances that I never would have had and it allowed me to know who to talk to at each university when something came up. Another group I really liked working with was the group of Faculty Senate presidents. In fact, that’s where I met our present president. He was the President of the Faculty Senate of the University of Utah when I was active at Weber. He was a good chemistry professor and very bright, so now for him to be our president is an interesting kind of thing. Anyway, they were wonderful, interesting, smart people that had lots of ideas. We had a lot of respect. We were appointed by the Board of Regents and then appointed within our universities. Bob Smith put me on, so that was a long time ago. I learned a lot about higher education and I also learned a lot about the curriculum and systems within our state and how well most of them work. The change from quarters to semesters was also a big deal. RL: That was in the mid-1990’s, wasn’t it? JM: Yes. I think it was about 1995. That was a really big switch. In some ways, it made us come into a commonality with other universities within our state. I have to laugh because all the arguments about why semesters are so much better than quarters are a crock. There are wonderful universities across the United States that are still on quarters like the University of Oregon, Stanford, Columbia, etc. RL: Judy, you’ve talked a little bit about your involvement with the Faculty Senate as chair and the General Education/Curriculum Committee after you stepped down as chair. At about that time, we had a big push with the diversity requirements in Page 20 of 35 the classes and the Curriculum and General Education became separate committees and they are very involved. JM: Yes, and I went back on General Education just a few years ago. RL: You mentioned that, so what I wanted to ask you how that worked out for you and did you stay involved with that until you left? JM: Yes, until about last year, I continued to serve on senate committees. I served on a number of senate committees, which was wonderful. I think they seemed to value my background and what I’d already done and it worked well for me because I really enjoyed working with my colleagues. During the time I was senate chair, I was also head of Teaching and Learning because our person left. I was wearing two hats and I had three offices instead of two. It was a busy time. My department was good about the release time and at that time the Faculty Senate had some money, so we did get release time, which was a huge help, I couldn’t have done most of what I did if I hadn’t had some release time. RL: This was during the time of Paul Thompson’s presidency? JM: Yes it was. RL: Then he left and Ann Milner stepped up to the plate and hit a few home runs. JM: Right. While Paul was president and Eisler was the provost, I worked a lot with Eisler and when it came time to name a new president, it was between him and Ann, do you remember that? RL: Yes. I had been off campus then for a little while. Page 21 of 35 JM: He was the provost and was an academic and Ann was someone who came through Continuing Education and Paul had mentored her wonderfully. Of course, she is a bright woman and she did a good job. RL: She had been involved with Development. JM: She had all of those kinds of things on that side of the university. RL: Those are important too. JM: Well, raising money is always important in universities. For Ann, I was surprised when she stepped down when she did simply because the capital campaign was her baby. I was just really surprised that she didn’t see it to the end. RL: She did mention when she first started that she would take it and put in ten good years and that’s what she did. Were you involved with any of the things that she helped to develop? JM: I’ve been on the University Capital Campaign Committee, so if raising money is part of it, yes. I am head of the committee for the College of Education even though I’ve retired. RL: Speaking of the College of Education, you would have been through a few deans there. JM: That’s one way to put it, yes. When I came Dick Jones was the dean. As I said, he came in without a level playing field in many ways because there were two faculty members that thought they should have been the dean. That made it really hard. He did some things really well and some things less well, but it’s true of all of us. There was finally a vote of no confidence and I think that Bob Smith decided it was probably time for him to go before there was a formal vote of no Page 22 of 35 confidence. It wasn’t over anything dishonest or anything like that. There were just enough differences so he left. Then they hired Green, and he was the first African American dean on campus. Again, like any dean, he had his interests and did some things really well and some things not so. Jack Rasmussen was the next. He had been here as a faculty member so most of us had worked with him. He was a good teacher and he seemed to be a good administrator, so when he applied for the position we were interested. He was the dean in North Dakota at a university. We were happy to have him back. The known is always kind of nice and we knew what to expect. I think he’s been an effective dean. I think he’s had the respect of the faculty, he’s good to work with, and he’s a dependable person. RL: How long has he been here now? JM: I’m not sure. I think he’s been here for maybe seven years. He’s the senior dean on campus. RL: You were talking about his being supportive. Was there a difference in the level of support you got from each of those deans? JM: I had wonderful support from all of them, I can’t complain at all. There was always money for me to present at conferences. Ray Reutzel, who was a professor at Utah State and I applied for the editorship of, The Reading Teacher, which is the premier journal of the International Reading Association and received the appointment. That was a five year thing and they came out and visited with the President, Provost and Dean to make sure that I would have the support I would need to do the job. They did the same at Utah State for Ray. I Page 23 of 35 had release time for it and I had financial support from International Reading. My dean could have said no. It was when Green was the dean. I guess Eisler must have been the provost and Paul was the president and they met with all of them to say, “Can she do this? Will you give her support and release time?” There was no question. It was a prestigious journal to begin with and it was nice that westerners were nominated and chosen to do this. I learned a great deal from that experience. Reading has been the thing that I’ve been most interested in, so that was a wonderful thing. RL: It’s a basis for many things in education, isn’t it? JM: I think it’s the basis for learning when it comes down to it. I think for the youngsters who struggle it isn’t just learning how to read, it’s how to use literacy. In your position you know all about that. The other thing I’ve had a lot of support on for 28 years is running a reading and writing conference every summer. The State has given me some money and Weber has given me some money and support. This is the first summer that we haven’t done it. We’ve brought to campus outstanding people in the field of reading and writing to do the conference. That has been a wonderful thing for our students and for our teachers in the field. Things like that I will miss terribly. I do miss them. RL: Were there other national programs that you were involved with that you got particularly good support for? JM: Yes there surely were. Of course, going to conferences is part of it and presenting at conferences takes support. I was on quite a few national Page 24 of 35 committees for reading and literacy and children’s books. Those people tend to be a community that knows one another. For me, it was a broadening kind of thing. It gave me people I could call on to hire for my reading conference. Probably the thing that gave both Ray and me the most exposure was that editorship. Ray went on and served on the Board of Directors of International Reading. He has an endowed chair at Utah State. He’s a good scholar and good teacher and all those kinds of things. RL: You’ve mentioned that you’re retired, but you’re still here on campus. JM: Yes, but I am coming to the end. I had a substantial grant from the State to run the level two reading endorsement classes. There are three of them. There’s a research class, an internship and a professional development class. The audience for those classes consists of people that have a level one endorsement in reading and are aspiring to be reading coaches in the schools. The level one classes can be taught within the school districts. For a long time we taught some of them and I have to laugh because I still see my syllabi floating around being used in the schools by somebody else. Level two has to be taught through the universities. Weber held on to those, but the problem is that the size of the audience for the classes is not very predictable and often not very big. Weber State University serves Box Elder, Davis, Weber and a few from Ogden school districts. RL: Of course, we now have an information literacy requirement for graduation here and to have the local school district do away with all of the media specialists… Page 25 of 35 JM: It doesn’t make a bit of sense. Particularly in a district where there are more needy children than any district along the Front. They need those people. They are wonderfully well-trained. They are superb teachers. RL: The Regents said, “We need this computer and information literacy.” One of the things that we were finding was that they were coming to us from the high schools unprepared. One of my colleagues wrote in a letter to the newspaper about seeing students come in and they’ve already written the paper and then they do the research because they need three references to put with the paper. Something is not right. JM: Something is not right. RL: Interesting times in the Ogden School Districts. JM: They have been interesting times for a long time. I know they are dealing with a lot of things that are difficult. I had a friend who was an administrator and we were talking about second language. He said, “It isn’t the second language that’s the problem, it’s the poverty that’s the problem.” There are a lot of needy children and they need excellent teachers. Those media people are excellent teachers. They’re cutting out all the part-time reading coaches as well. There are 240 and if they have them for 30 hours they don’t have to pay any benefits. The whole thing is disgusting as far as I’m concerned. RL: In terms of your time at Weber, it sounds like you’ve accomplished a lot in the 30 years that you’ve been here on campus. Are there things that you were involved with that didn’t succeed? Page 26 of 35 JM: Well, who’s going to say yes to that? I’m kidding. There are certainly things that were successful at different levels. Some of the things I look back and I wonder why I ever opened my mouth. RL: It’s perfectly alright for you to talk about that because it was something that you were concerned about. Were there things that you wish you had done and weren’t able to for financial reasons or maybe Weber couldn’t get involved because it wasn’t the right time and place? As far as the big picture, were there other things that you would have liked to have seen? JM: When I came to Weber, I still had three youngsters at home. I was pretty place bound. After that, I went through a divorce and my two boys were then grown and out of the house and my daughter was in college. I started late with my academic career. I stayed home until my youngest was seven and didn’t go back to work. Then, I had to get a license to teach school. I was place bound for a number of years. I think had I done things earlier, I might have left Weber and had some other kinds of experiences. At the time, with my personal life, when it was time to do those sorts of things, it was late to do them. I loved Weber and quite frankly, I think, “Where would I have had the opportunities that Weber has given me?” I had never thought I planned my life particularly well if you want to know the truth. I’ve kind of fallen into things without as much planning as I might have done. When I finally decided to go back to school and to teach, the hook that really was there for me was that I was fascinated with how children learn to read. What is it that happens in our brains? In watching children who struggle, what is Page 27 of 35 the difference in how they look at the world or how they process everything from children who don’t seem to struggle? Luckily, my children did not struggle, and I did not struggle. Having worked with youngsters in school who do struggle, I thought it would be tough if I worked with these kids in school and then had to go home and work with my own, but my children did wonderfully academically. I really liked Weber and with a university this size, you can make some differences. When I was in college and got this music degree I could have taught piano maybe, but I didn’t know how to do anything. I didn’t know how to type when I graduated from college. I went to Wright-MacMahon Secretarial School in Beverly Hills for a year and learned how to do all kinds of secretarial things. RL: Was this after you finished you bachelor’s at Stanford? JM: Yes. That’s how I happened to come home and work for Amalgamated Sugar and then for Security Corporation. I had wonderful jobs. RL: When you mentioned being an executive secretary, I was wondering if that position had required a Bachelor’s degree. JM: Well, let me tell you some of the things I did for First Security. I worked for Willard Eccles and I wrote all the Board and Executive Board minutes for the corporation, although, I never went to a meeting. He did all the public relations and advertising for the corporation and I learned a lot. I probably would have gone on working for First Security, but I married and when my first baby was born, I didn’t work again for another ten or fifteen years. When I came back to school, perhaps if I had been more thoughtful about what I really wanted to do, I might have done something other than education. I Page 28 of 35 don’t know. My father was a physician. The summer between high school and college, I worked in the newborn nursery at the old Dee Hospital and just loved it. I wanted to go to nursing school. My father wouldn’t hear of it. Those were the days. He said, “No, you’re not going to go to nursing school. You have the wrong thumbs for the bed pans.” So, I didn’t do that. In college, I had developed a lot of other interests as well. I look back and think probably what I would have done in a different era would be to have gone to medical school. I was bright enough to and I think I would have really liked it. RL: The mentality then was that women in medicine were nurses. JM: They were odd ducks if they went to medical school. My father just couldn’t see that for sour apples. He was a physician and he couldn’t see this thing at all. Later on, we had a lot of talks about this whole thing and his outlook changed. I had one female friend in law school and a couple in business school. Most of them were in more traditional majors for women. I have a niece who graduated in law and my daughter is in architecture, both nontraditional women’s fields. My generation was different. RL: Well, we have touched on a lot of different things. What about your time at Weber? Are there things that you might have done differently other than having gone somewhere else? I’ve seen a lot of people here on campus who leave and come back because this is a great place to be. JM: And I am not sure that I would have left. I liked the administrative experiences I had. I was department chair, and I directed the graduate program for 13 or 14 years. I had a lot of freedom on that because we developed a thesis system. Page 29 of 35 When I got here they were doing some little paper that was paper bound and we said, “No, this does not look like professional scholarly work.” We did a lot with curriculum and all that was very satisfactory to me. The other thing I guess I could mention are civic kinds of things that have mattered to me. I was president of the Junior League before I ever came to Weber. I’ve been on the symphony board for a long time. I’m a Commissioner for Landmarks for Ogden City and I’m on the Heritage Board. Those things are interesting to me. I’ve been involved with the music department simply so I could return to my roots. I’ve had fun knowing the people in the music department and the students. I’m really quite busy. I think the thing that scared me most about retiring was, “What if I don’t have anything to do?” Of course, I’ve been teaching classes, but I won’t at the end of this semester because there’s no money to do it, which makes me sad because I just loved my students. The reading coaches were the brightest of the bright. They were just wonderful. My connection with the school districts, particularly with the Weber and the Davis districts has been very satisfying and keeps your hand in to see what’s happening out there. I will miss that. I still serve on the Board of the State Reading Association and I get to see all of these great people I’ve either had in school or known. They have moved ahead and have done wonderful things in their lives and I am proud of that. RL: That’s wonderful. Sometimes you can go to a banquet and pick up lots of things and you walk away and you’re still hungering for something and then there are other times when things fall into place and you can say that you were satisfied. Page 30 of 35 JM: I think that is absolutely true and I still see a number of my colleagues from Weber. One thing that was terrific about the Faculty Senate work was that I had the opportunity to meet people in all departments. When I arrived, I was shocked that there was so little communication between the College of Education, particularly Teacher Education, and across campus. It just didn’t happen. Accreditation meant that it had to happen and working in the Senate allowed me opportunities to meet people across the campus that I never would have known. RL: I think with things like the Community Involvement Program and the Teaching and Learning Forum and all of the programs now for helping people develop online classes and so forth, people are interacting a lot more than previously. JM: Yes. I think they are too. Ruby, were you here when we did Writing Across the Curriculum? RL: I was. JM: That was a wonderful time for exactly what you’re talking about. RL: It brought people together from different parts of the campus and took you someplace and you sat down and you could exchange ideas for how to teach or how to develop particular processes and so forth. It was a good program. I think Teaching and Learning came from that because Lee McKenzie was the one who developed that. JM: She was a lovely lady. That was a tragic kind of thing. RL: It was. When you said that you did Teaching and Learning Forum for a year, I wondered whether that might have been about the time that Lee had to leave. Page 31 of 35 JM: I can’t remember what the circumstances were, but suddenly we didn’t have a director and Teaching and Learning fell on the Faculty Senate. We were doing whatever we were doing to find someone to head it up as I remember. It was an eye opener to me. I’d served on it at one time or another before that, so it wasn’t completely new or anything. RL: It was a great program, and I think Lee did a great job establishing it. JM: She did. I remember that one of the faculty members who was perhaps the most changed and it was most surprising was a fellow that was in accountancy. He used it widely in his accountancy classes. You would think it would have been history or English, but I’ll never forget that. He was such a proponent of the whole thing. I thought that was a really good program. I liked all of the things that mixed us up with other disciplines. I thought it really mattered. RL: I think there’s more of that kind of thing happening now and it can only strengthen the college. JM: Absolutely. I think that this community outreach is a tremendous thing. I am really curious to see how this is going to go downtown because I guess those spaces are about completed on Washington. Is it going to be Continuing Education classes or Adult Education? I have no idea what’s going to go in there, do you? RL: I don’t. JM: It’s wonderful space. I thought, “Good.” Remember when we were in the basement of the mall? Page 32 of 35 RL: Yes. I don’t know if you were involved or remember in the very early nineties, before we had the whole Community Involvement Program, we had some of our athletes working at the Lewis School helping children with teaching. JM: I do remember that. There was faculty sending their students out to look at things. In Education, we’d send them out because they’ve got to be in the schools. Other disciplines were doing a lot of things as well. RL: I like it here. JM: I don’t blame you. I like it here too. I think it’s a good setting for students. There are more and more kinds of things to engage the students. I liked the programs where they put classes together in a cohort for new freshman. Those kinds of things have been successful. They’ve helped kids not to get lost and provided a way for them to become connected with other students, particularly if they’re students that just commute. I’m happy to see the new dorms because I think it’s more attractive to live on campus than ever before. I think that’s good. We have a lot of administrators and faculty that have done good things to promote what’s happening on our campus. It’s a beautiful campus and when I was walking over here today I thought, “What a pretty time of year with the stream and the pond and the beautiful trees and bushes.” It’s a beautiful campus. RL: My brother was trying to explain to someone that I lived in an area where every place you look is a postcard. JM: What a compliment. RL: Then he said, “No, come to think of it, she lives in a postcard.” Page 33 of 35 It sounds as though your years here have been good and I’m glad to hear it. Certainly, if you think of things later that you would have liked to have told us about, please get in touch. I want to thank you for taking the time to do this. JM: You’re welcome. It’s been my pleasure. RL: It’s been a good program for us and it’s good when we get someone like you who’s been involved across the board and can help to build that picture of what Weber State has been over the years. JM: Don’t you feel it has come a great, far distance in terms of sophistication? RL: Absolutely. JM: I think that it’s become more scholarly. RL: It’s certainly not Harrison High any longer, is it? JM: It surely is not. One of the things that I think has made a difference is that the standards for tenure have changed. That was another thing we did in those years in making Weber a more scholarly university—higher demands. RL: We’ve been able to maintain some of the earlier things, regardless. JM: For teaching there is no question about it. The standards for hiring people have become more comparative with other universities. When University of Utah or Utah State complains about Weber I have to laugh because I think of the numbers of faculty that were trained in those two institutions and if there’s something wrong with this then it’s their fault, not ours. RL: We keep showing up on more and more national lists and I think partly it’s because of people like you. Page 34 of 35 JM: Well, thank you, that is a compliment. As I say, like you, I have not regretted my years at Weber. I’ve been proud of them. RL: Thank you for being with us today. JM: You’re welcome. Page 35 of 35