Oral History Program Gary Willden Interviewed by Marina Kenner 19 July 2022 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Gary Willden Interviewed by Marina Kenner 19 July 2022 Copyright © 2024 by Weber State University, Stewart Library Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description The Weber State University Oral History Project began conducting interviews with key Weber State University faculty, administrators, staff and students, in Fall 2007. The program focuses primarily on obtaining a historical record of the school along with important developments since the school gained university status in 1990. The interviews explore the process of achieving university status, as well as major issues including accreditation, diversity, faculty governance, changes in leadership, curricular developments, etc. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Willden, Gary, an oral history by Marina Kenner, 19 July 2022, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, Special Collections and University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Abstract: This oral history interview with Gary Willden, conducted on July 19, 2022, captures the transformative journey of a Utah native from his early years through his time as a professor at Weber State College. As a member of the Green Berets, Willden's military training ignited an enduring connection with the outdoors—a stark contrast to his urban upbringing and limited outdoor experiences as a child. This newfound passion for nature, opened up a world of appreciation and engagement with the environment that had previously been unexplored in his life. The narrative details Willden's time as a recreation professor at Weber State University and his experience with the annual Mt. Ogden Homecoming Hike. Also present is Chloe Thompson. MK: Today is July 19th, 2022. We are in the Stewart Library and we are doing an oral history interview with Gary Willden. I am Marina Kenner, the interviewer. And in the room with me is Chloe Thompson, the video technician. So when and where were you born? GW: I was born in Delta, Utah. 1946. December 17th. MK: Do you want to talk a little bit about your early life? GW: I was the oldest of five sons. We moved into the Salt Lake area when I was about seven or eight, lived there a few years and moved out Kearns. Which was an old army base being converted into a giant subdivision. I basically grew up there. I went to the Kearns Junior High, then we moved to Granger and I went to Granger High School, the old Granger High School, before it was torn down. And I don't know why they do that. It was a perfectly good building, but they had to put up a new multimillion-dollar place. But I was heavily involved in music and theater there and in fact decided that I wanted to be a high school choir teacher. So I did. I was in all the shows. Near the end of my time in high school, the Vietnam War was heating up, it 1 was 1964/65. The draft had been put in place. In fact, we have been given a draft lottery numbers, and I had a very low number. So I was going to be drafted as soon as I graduated high school. So I enlisted in the Army, became a member of the Green Berets the 19th Special Forces. Loved it. I was trained, in jumping out of airplanes and going to spend time down in the jungles of Panama. It was a great time. As a matter of fact, that's really where I became so caught up in the outdoors. I didn't really have a lot of experience in the outdoors as a boy. Not a strong scouting background or anything like that. When I got through with my military training, I served an LDS mission in Germany. When I came back my girlfriend from high school was at BYU. She had become a ballroom dancer, and that's something that I'd always loved. So the two of us danced together for two or three years. Toured around the country with the ballroom dance team. We got married in 69, where I started down the road to become a music major. It didn't take long--about a year and a half to realize that I couldn't compete with people who had been playing piano since they were three and had perfect pitch. So I changed my major. You mentioned you may be interested in that. As I shopped around, I found a recreation class and the man who taught it was named Alma Heaton. He was known as the “Professor of Fun” and I had a great time in his class and he told me that he was going to be retiring in a few years and he needed somebody to take his place. So he expected me to be that person. So I went ahead and graduated and did a master's degree, all in recreation and outdoor education. After Alma died my wife suggested that since I had recently earned my doctorate from the University of Utah, that I should become Dr. Fun since he had been the Professor of Fun. So that's where Dr. Fun came from. Before long, all of my students and other people were referring to me as Dr. Fun. It's not 2 because I was such a fun person, but I got to teach all the fun classes. In 1977, I came to Weber State. I had taught at a small private school in Salt Lake for the gifted for two or three years, and I enjoyed that very much. Did a lot of outdoor stuff with them. I had become an avid rock climber. Caving was a big hobby of mine, just a lot of outdoor adventure stuff. The position came open at Weber State and I was hired as a lecturer in 1977. The next year I became an instructor and a year after that I became an assistant and still later an associate professor. About that time, I realized that I was going to have to have my doctorate if I wanted to receive tenure and further promotion. So I started working on my doctoral degree at the University of Utah, and in 1983, completed my doctorate, my dissertation and everything. And then the next year I was made the department chairman here in the Department of Health, Physical Education, Recreation and Dance. And I was department chair for five years, it was during that period of time that, we reinstituted the Mount Ogden Hike. I absolutely loved my time here. I was at Weber State for 35 years, becoming a full professor in ‘85. And I just spent a great deal of time with a lot of wonderful students in the outdoors, traveled all over the West with them and had a great time. I retired in 2012, about ten years ago. And that was the end of my career. Unfortunately, though, after all those years of activity, when I suddenly slowed down, a little bit of my ability to do those things cut way back and I haven't done very much rock climbing in those years since. I've done a lot of canyoneering. Slot canyons have become a passion of mine. So I go down to Southern Utah and Northern Arizona to go canyoneering quite frequently. But mostly I'm just enjoying my six sons, my one daughter and our 14 grandchildren. How's that? MK: That's great. Got the whole overview. GW: I was asked a few years ago to put together a summary of my professional 3 background and so on. And I brought this whole package of materials just for you, if you'd like. MK: Awesome. GW: But this is four…five…six pages of information and photos from my outdoor experience. Much of what I just told you is in here. But there's certainly more if you're interested in looking at them. MK: Awesome. Thank you. Appreciate that. I'll take a look at them. And then going back to a couple things. Where did you get your bachelors and your masters from? GW: I did my bachelor's and master's degrees at BYU in recreation education and outdoor environmental education. Then when I went to the U of U for my doctorate was also in outdoor and environmental ed. So, you know, that's been my whole life, is the outdoors. MK: That's good. Were you encouraged to pursue an education? GW: Oh, yeah. I was the only person in my family--I'm the oldest of five sons, as I said. And none of my other brothers went to college. We've got a couple of firefighters and a couple of career military guys and all of that. But I felt strongly to get my education and I had no idea that it would ever unfold like it has. But it's been a good life. MK: It sounds like it. Do you have any other certifications? GW: Oh, in my field…in recreation, there is a professional licensure called the Certified Park and Recreation Professional (CPRP) and 20 years or so ago, I kind of rehashed all of my classes that I'd taken over the years and went over to Denver to take the test. And I surpassed that and became a CPRP. I'm also a certified climbing instructor, became a military guide and instructor in Special Forces. MK: Did you get that certified with the Special Forces while you were in the Special Forces? 4 GW: Yes. MK: Were there any other career options that you considered once you had your degrees? GW: Well, like I said, I was expecting to be a music major when I changed into recreation. I did not foresee the higher ed. I was working in the city and community park and recreation programs and whatnot. Where would you find a job at a college or university? I happened to walk into job service, you know, the employment agency in Salt Lake. And here was a three by five card that said they were looking for a recreation instructor at Weber State or Weber College. And I said, well, that's for me. I applied and I was interviewed and was hired. So I came here in 1977 from a postcard job service. MK: What is your wife's name? GW: Joan Lambert. We've been in Centerville for about 25 years. Before that, we lived out in South Ogden for about 20 years. Like I said, we have seven children. The first six were boys and then we pretty much despaired of having a girl, and then along she came. And now she has four girls, including twins. We thoroughly enjoy our grandchildren. MK: That's a lot of fun. Is the whole family involved with the outdoors? GW: Yeah. After I leave you here today, I'm going up to my cabin. We built a log home up on the South Fork, East of Huntsville. It's only about 30 minutes from here. So, I spend as much time as I can on the cabin. And that's just a way for me to continue enjoying the outdoors. MK: That's nice. GW: I built a ropes course on the grounds of our cabin, zip line and rope bridges and things that our grandkids all enjoy coming up there for that. MK: It's a lot of fun. What was Weber State like when you first started here? 5 GW: Well, as I said, it was Weber College. It had previously been Weber Academy and so on. But in, I think it was 1964, it became Weber College. And then and I think it was around 1968, it became Weber State College. And that's when I was hired. That's what it was named. Then during the time that I served as department chairman and I think it was 1988 or 1989…I think it was 1989, we were able to become Weber State University because that's when they started having master's programs and so on here. As I mentioned when I first arrived here not a great deal has changed, lots and lots of buildings and changes in the landscaping and so on that are all new to me. It's fun to see. MK: How did the Physical Education and Recreation Department change over time? GW: Well, I was so interested in the outdoor aspect of recreation that's what I tended to focus on in my teaching and in the creation of courses. Since I left I know people who have taken my place are more into community, parks and recreation kinds of things. And so that's become more of an emphasis them. That was just something that we spent a few days on in my classes, but it's become now part of the degree program. Back then what we now know as the outdoor adventure program. It was in a closet downstairs in the Union. At that time, it was called the Outings Center. And I was involved with them. Then we gradually acquired equipment and began renting it out. And then they moved up into the Stromberg Arena when that was built. And now of course they've got their beautiful new building. I had been trying for years to get an indoor climbing wall. And after years of working on that, my dean came up with some donated funds and we were able to build a climbing wall that's in the big arena. I taught classes there, but my focus was on teaching in the outdoors. So, I used the indoor rock-climbing wall just as a place to go on bad weather days and also the first day or so of class as a kind of an introductory experience. Now, the 6 new center over here has got this fantastic climbing facility, which I'd love to have had long ago. MK: What kind of classes did you teach while you were here? GW: I've got the details in that summary of my history, but I taught everything from, what I call some physical education classes, like jogging and hiking. I loved my hiking class. Every Friday for 35 years from spring and fall, I took, 20-25 people on hikes. And we did all the trails up and down the Wasatch Front and back. I loved teaching all of that. There had never been a rock-climbing class at Weber when I came in. So I instituted that. I'm the one who created the cross-country ski class. So all of those became a significant part of my teaching load. In my recreation program I also taught a course in administration and logistics. I taught a class in leadership. Those were fun to do, but they were more academic classroom type things, although we had a significant experiential component to all of those classes. But my love was always in the outdoors. I taught outdoor survival classes, this was taught at a caveman level, we went out and learned how to build fires and the very primitive kinds of survival skills. MK: How did you get involved with reviving the Mt. Ogden hike? GW: Well, as I said, I was teaching those hiking classes and I have been up on Mt. Ogden— climbed it, hiked it many times even before I came to Weber State. But once I got here…I don't even know where, but I heard something about the fact that there had been this historic Mt. Ogden hike back in 1921 and 1922. And I thought, well, that's something that we should do again. One day, I think it was in 1986, our college president at that time was Stephen D. Nadauld. He and I have become good friends because, he had all sons and we had all sons, before the birth of our daughter. And I had recently completed my cabin. So we invited President Nadauld and his wife and a couple of their kids to come up to the cabin and spend a day with 7 us and we just got to be friends. And through all of that, we talked about the Mt. Ogden hike and he decided that we should go for it big time. With some support from the administrative people, they were able to research and found that there were still several people alive in 1987 who had been on that hike in 1922. So, Steve was able to secure funding and donated funds to pay for the helicopter, because these men were in their eighties. I put together the flier and the information for the hike and the hike up to the saddle. And then a helicopter arrived and it brought these four men plus folding chairs and a P.A. system. We had about 250 people up there in the saddle that day. So these people all talk to us a little bit about their experience at the saddle. Every year during the hike, we'd always sing Purple and White. I love our school song, and I always had it memorized. So I always end up leading, proudly waving all we were. And then we sang the school song. We actually had a kind of a preliminary hike in 1987. The weather was lousy, and we only had about 30 or 40 people show up, but that was to kind of get ready for the big one in 1988. But after that, we just said, why not continue? So we continued doing the hike year after year. And I again, I just put out material. This was the brochure that I created for the hike. And it had information on each of the different trails that were available and saw. So I put those out every year and this one was actually from 2005. But it was never a kind of a guided hike. You know, I didn't have people walking up the trail behind me in a row. We just said, “okay, whenever you want to start from whichever trailhead you want to start, we'll meet at the saddle about noon for a program.” And then either before that program or after it, people would hike on up to the summit. Now, that's the hardest part of the hike. That last half mile up to the summit is really steep but we'd enjoy them. Signing in on the trailhead registers and then have 8 a little program of the saddle and then everybody would disperse and head down. There were a lot of community people who came on the hikes as well. And so gradually it became much bigger than we had originally planned. On the rocks on the summit, right at the summit are these two plaques, this was the original plaque that talked about the 1922 hike. And then this little plaque we put on and that explained how we restarted that tradition in 1987, 1988. Here's where there's now close ups of the two plaques. One of the things that was always thrilling for me was that there were these community people and this is a group of elderly women who lived in a care center down here on Harrison. This is Beth Orton, she was 82. As I recall, the first year that we held the hike and she came up. She came up the long way out of Malan’s Basin, not from Snowbasin and we just celebrated when she came up. That was just the beginning. She made that hike year after year, after year along with her group of friends and these are pictures of some of the years that she was up there, on the hike with us. And it was just great. She was awesome. And she was there through 2004, 2005, and 2007. I think the last time she made the hike was 2009. Beth was just a joy to have. It was really amazing to have somebody her age, even close to that age who was still active in the outdoors. MK: That's cool. I've seen some articles of her floating around. She was super involved in the trails. GW: She's great lady. I don't know if I have it, but some place I, we have made up a plaque for Beth, “super hiker” and I presented it to her at the saddle one year. By the way, I don't know if this interests you, but I have a ton of information here. One year I took the experience of leading this hike and researched other large group hikes way back when BYU and Provo used to sponsor the Mt. Timpanogos hike every year. And there was a man from BYU whose name was Eugene Roberts, and 9 he led that hike for years. And I went on that hike as a boy. So anyway, I wrote up this whole article and presented at our national convention about mass hikes and what it was like to put together that kind of an experience for a large group of people. This is another one of those fliers that we have. So anyway, you got a lot of things here if you want to look at them. This is from the 1988 hike, the centennial hike. I put together a report and summarized the experience of that day talking about the helicopter coming up and everything. So we got a copy of that article... But as I taught that hiking class, I use things, like this. It is an article that I gave as a handout to my students about hiking as an activity. I taught them about first aid and survival kits. And so here are pages of, this handout that I gave them on the land navigation, maps and compasses. This is the actual course outline from 2012. So this was the last time I taught the hiking class. Here is the course outline that was given to my students the first day. A lot of a lot of fun stuff. Hike Planning, Leadership. This was an article by Lynn Arave, he's local. He's taught and he was a writer for the Deseret News. He was a Weber State student long ago, he wrote and did some research about Mt. Ogden. It used to be known as Observatory Peak. And, so he wrote this article about that he mentioned our annual hike in here and so that's kind of fun to see the things from a non-student perspective. MK: Thank you. It'll be really good to have in our repository. GW: Yeah. You probably don't want to read all of that, but there's a lot of material there. MK: It could help fill in some of the gaps. Do you have any other favorite memories from the Mt. Ogden hike? GW: Well, the thing that was fun for me, I would always hike up there first. I was almost always the first to arrive at the summit. I set up the summit register for people to sign, and then I'd go back down to the saddle and just greet people as they arrived 10 from both sides of the mountain. And then they'd go on up to the summit and come back for the for the program at noon. And it was just great fun to see families of people with small children, sometimes on their backs, groups of Cub Scouts and groups of Boy Scouts and their leaders coming up. So it was fun just to see all of these community people as well as our students. MK: Were you involved at all with the Ogden Rock Climbing Festival? GW: Well, that was started while I was still here. Once we got that indoor climbing wall up here, the climbing festival was something that came along with that. That was really done by the outdoor center people. I would come and attend, but I wasn't involved in putting it together. MK: Were you involved in any other committees or organizations? GW: You know, I was, as every faculty member I served on various committees. Promotion or retention, tenure, questioning situations that had happened on campus in various committee functions that we had. But, you know, that was just typical of what any faculty members workload would include. MK: Do you have any favorite memories of your time at Weber State? GW: Well, I just loved being here. My 35-year career at Weber state was a highlight of life for me. I thoroughly enjoyed the many, many things that were part of that. And I'm grateful to have been here. Like I said, I'm amazed at how much it's changed. But life moves on. My wife and I have done a lot of traveling since I retired, and that's all been wonderful. And because of that, I just haven't had much reason to come back to campus. So it was fun to do that today. But it's just not someplace that I visit often. I know another member of the faculty whose whole life revolves around campus and events. He goes to all the ball games and all that sort of thing. I don't, I never did. Much of my life, my professional life was here at Weber State. My personal life was with my children, my family, and our cabin and so on. You know, 11 everybody has their way of being a faculty member. And I was a very involved one, but not quite as completely involved as some people I knew. MK: What recognitions have you received for your accomplishments? GW: Oh, I got a whole series of awards and I’ve been presented, recreation professor of the year kind of thing and all that. There's a lot of those kinds of recognitions by my various state and national professional associations, but not too much. MK: I read somewhere that you helped out with the 2002 Olympics. GW: Yeah. When the Olympics came, like thousands of other people, I volunteered. You may not know, but Weber State shut down for those weeks of the month of the Olympics and the Paralympics. So I volunteered, went through all the training, got my uniforms and everything. Then my assignment as a recreation professional was at the Olympic Village. So I was in charge of the fun for the athletes from all over the world. I'd set up tables with games and ping pong and billiards and all these activities for the athletes. I got to meet lots and lots of these pretty famous Olympic athletes from all around the world during the games. And I thought it was a great time. I thoroughly enjoyed that. They keep talking about bringing the Olympics back to Utah. I don't know if I would be volunteering. Depends on how soon that happens. But I'm 75 now, so by the time they get the Olympics back here, I'll be well over 80. So, I'm not so sure I'll volunteer again, but I wish I could. MK: Just be like the moral support. GW: That's right. MK: Was that the Olympic Village that was here at Weber? GW: No, that was the one at the University of Utah campus. But technically it was the circle of old historic homes on Fort Douglas. The military homes, it’s called Officer Circle. The athletes lived up in the dormitories behind that. But then they would 12 come down to the Officer Circle for meals and activities and so on. MK: Is there a particular activity that was like the best? Everybody loved it? GW: One of the things that most people never see, but at each day during the lead up to the games, the Olympic teams and all their entourage from various countries arrive at the village. And, of course, we had to have a welcoming ceremony. So day after day, sometimes two or three times a day, we'd go out and stand in-formation on the parade ground out there and they'd have a band playing. And people would welcome these people from Poland or from Czechoslovakia or whatever. And then we'd go meet the athletes. So I got a lot of little keepsakes and autographs. We did a lot of pin trading, all that kind of thing. It was fun. MK: It sounds like a lot of fun. What mentors or resources do you have available to you in your program and your career? GW: Not too much, actually. For the most part, when I came here to Weber, it was just carte blanche. I could pretty well set up the classes the way I wanted. I could even create whole new courses, which I did several times. I was just given a great deal of latitude in what I taught and how I taught it, which I really loved. I thought it was great not to have to march lockstep down through some prescribed program. There were people here and there, like Alma Heaton that I mentioned, who were mentors to me. But then three times in the last ten years, I've had a phone call or an email or a letter from some former student thanking me for their experiences on my class and telling me how they had taken what they learned from my classes and then use it in whatever their profession is now. So I've been grateful to have received some of those kinds of appreciations, but it's hard to it's on structured or formalized. MK: Going back a little bit. Do you remember what kind of recreation degrees Weber offered while you were here? 13 GW: There were no degrees. We had a recreation minor. Our department, was with the Department of Health, Physical Education, Recreation and Dance. Physical Education was a major. Health was a major. Dance became a major later. Recreation became a major later. But while I was there, it was just a minor. Frequently I was asked why I don't push for a recreation major, but I had seen how much effort it took for people to go through all of the approvals. It has to go clear up to the state board of Regents to get approval for a new major. And maybe you could call me professionally lazy, I suppose, but I just didn't see spending that kind of time to create a major. Because if students wanted to major in recreation, they already had opportunities at Utah State, University of Utah, at BYU. You know, within 50 miles there were all kinds of recreation programs. So I felt like, my minor should emphasize the things that I wanted to provide in the outdoors. Then if people wanted to conclude their studies by having a recreation major, they would transfer elsewhere. But after I retired ten years ago, the people who replaced me did go through the process of getting a major. And I've never really looked too much in detail at what they're doing with their program. But it's not mine. MK: That's fair. You answered this a little bit. But if you want to go into more detail, how have you become a mentor to others in your field? GW: Well, as a professor, you try to provide good quality experiences. A lot of teachers teach facts, information. What I always taught was experience. I believed, I still believe in experiential education. I think that's how you learn is by doing. So I tried to provide as much hands-on, doing activities in all of my classes as I could. So because of that, I had some considerable interaction with my students in a kind of more informal setting than just in a classroom, which I really enjoyed. But that was just the approach I took. 14 MK: What advice would you give to students starting in your field? GW: Well, you know, it's changed. Every decent sized city or even towns now have recreation programs. I live down in Centerville and there's a recreation director for the city of Centerville, and they have classes and activities and leagues and all kinds of things going on. So there's still plenty of opportunity, but people love doing those kinds of things. So there's not a lot of turnover. I've had students over the years who have gone through my program and then become directors, like the City Recreation Director in St George, the City Recreation Director in Cedar City and so on. Or people who went through their program with me, at least through my minor. Most of them completed majors later elsewhere. But I think there's still opportunities to be involved in recreation. The thing that I'm just amazed at all the time is was watching how it changes. 10-12 years ago, I started taking my students down to the pond not the one on campus, but off over Fourth Street. And we would get in sit-on-top kayaks and I would let them all try a little kayaking. Never saw those kayaks anywhere else except the fact that I was able to find a place where I could rent some. Now, you can't drive up to my cabin, up to Causey and Pine View and so on without seeing people with racks of kayaks on their vehicles. And that's the way it is with everything. Slot canyoneering, rock climbing. All of these sports and activities, which were kind of unusual, maybe a little bit extreme even, back 20-30 years ago, are now just big-time popular activities. MK: I like that. And then this one's a purely selfish question, but what is your favorite hike in the Ogden area? GW: Well, besides Mt. Ogden. Down near East Layton, there's a trail it's called Adams Canyon. It goes three miles up to a waterfall. And that's the beauty, it's a nice hike, but just going up and enjoy sitting in the spray of that falls for a little while on a hot 15 summer day. But I've also gone up there in the wintertime when it's frozen and using ice axes and crampons and the ice climbed that waterfall. That's just a favorite place because of the waterfall. But our little local canyons right here, Birch Creek and the whole Taylor Canyon complex are just wonderful trails. We have trails literally on campus. So, you know, we just step off of the north west corner of campus and you're into a canyon. But it sees very little traffic, some of what you call a wilderness area. We have an incredible setting here at Weber State, we're surrounded by so many opportunities. I knew people who were teaching like I was at other colleges and universities around the country. I would meet with them and they would tell me about how they rent busses and vans and they transport their students all day long to get to some trailhead where they could go out and have an experience in the outdoors. I can do that in 10 minutes from my office. MK: Yeah, I do a lot of hiking and trail running, so those canyons up there, so fun to explore, so pretty. Do you have any questions [to CT]? CT: You said something called. It was about Canyoning, but it was Canyon... GW: Canyoneering? CT: Yes. And you called it slot... GW: Slot canyoneering. CT: What is that? GW: All over in Southern Utah, Northern Arizona, the Colorado Plateau, have developed what are called Slot Canyons. The water flowing down through a crack and it gradually opens up. But because of the nature of the rock, it doesn't open up into a big canyon. It stays narrow like a slot. In some places you can touch both walls and it's 200 feet above your head. So those are slot canyons and they're all over 16 Southern Utah and Northern Arizona. And many of those canyons rather than you climb when you're going up on a mountain climb, we start at the bottom and get to the top. With Canyoneering you start at the top and work your way to the bottom. And on the way you almost always find drop offs. Sometimes they're as little as 10 or 15 or 30 feet. Sometimes there are 200 or 300 feet. So that slot canyoneering has developed in just the last 30 years as a pastime…kind of an extreme sport pastime. And we have special techniques for sending up anchors in these canyons so that we don't leave a lot of gear behind and so on. So slot canyoneering has just become a really big interest of mine. I love going through slot canyons, but also north of us, just over the Idaho border is a place called City of Rocks. That's another one of my very favorite places. I used to take groups of students. Twice a year we would go up to the City of Rocks for two or three or four days and just climb all over the place. These were usually my intermediate climbing students, so they already had some skills and I could provide them with the equipment and information and let them go climbing experiences in the city. It was great fun. MK: My mom loves Canyoneering. GW: It's a great activity. MK: I'm a little claustrophobic so not my thing. I think I'll stick to the washes. That's all the questions I have for today. Do you have anything else you want to say? GW: No. I do encourage you to take a slow thumb through all of this material that I've got for you. Many of the questions that you've asked are answered, especially in this paper. But there's a lot of other material there that you might want to stick in some archives somewhere. Because I don't know if, all of this came off of my computer, but I'm not sure it's available anywhere else. Most of it. MK: Yeah, we will make sure it gets put into your file. Thank you so much. 17 GW: You're welcome. My pleasure. Now I get to leave you and go to my cabin and sit on the deck. I'm about 20 feet from the river. I can throw a rock into the river. So I got to sit up there and watch the river flow. 18