Oral History Program Ira Alvin Huggins Interviewed by Harold C. Bateman 3 March 1973 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Ira Alvin Huggins Interviewed by Harold C. Bateman Professor Emeritus of History 3 March 1973 Copyright © 2012 by Weber State University, Stewart Library iii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description The Weber State College Oral History Program was created in the early 1970s to “record and document, through personal reminiscences, the history, growth and development of Weber State College.” Through interviews with administrators, faculty and students, the program’s goal was to expand the documentary holdings on Weber State College and its predecessor entities. From 1970 to 1976, the program conducted some fifteen interviews, under the direction of, and generally conducted by Harold C. Bateman, an emeritus professor of history. In 1979, under the direction of archivist John Sillito, the program was reestablished and six interviews were conducted between 1979 and 1983. Additional interviews were conducted by members of the Weber State community. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Huggins, Ira Alvin, an oral history by Harold C. Bateman, 3 March 1973, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. Ira Alvin Huggins 1 Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Ira Alvin Huggins (born 1898). Mr. Huggins was a former Democratic state senator who served on the Utah Board of Regents (1930-1946), on the board of directors for Weber College, and on the board of trustees for Weber State College. The interview was conducted on March 3, 1973 by Harold C. Bateman in order to gather Mr. Huggins’ recollections and experiences with Weber State College. HB: What was it that attracted you to Ogden, for it to become your home base? IH: Well, I was employed in Brigham City, by the Amalgamated and Utah Idaho Sugar Company as a chemist, and then the Brigham City plant closed, and I became employed by the Metropolitan Life Insurance Company as an auditor. They moved me to Ogden. HB: Oh, you went for your Bachelor of Law degree after you moved to Ogden? IH: Yes. I did. HB: You didn't have it at that time? IH: I did not. HB: I think that's quite interesting. I never knew before that you'd been a chemist. Your son is a chemist, isn't he? IH: Yes, my youngest son. He has his Ph.D. in metallurgy. HB: You have another son who is an attorney and he works with you? IH: Yes, he's practicing with me in our office. HB: Any other members of the family? I believe you have a daughter. 2 IH: I have two daughters. One of them is the wife of an alumnus of Weber State College, Allen Henderson who is a lawyer in Salt Lake City. My other daughter, the youngest daughter, is the wife of Jim Dokos, who was an all-American boy at Ogden High School back some years ago. They live in Costa Mesa, California. He is an assistant supervisor of the Orange County High Schools. HB: I see. Well, what caused you to turn to law, Mr. Higgins? IH: Well, that's an interesting question and one which perhaps will bore you, but when I was a youngster, perhaps not more than four years old, I was going to town with my mother to shop and we passed a gentleman who very courteously tipped his hat and spoke to my mother. After he had gone by, out of our hearing, she turned and said, "Son, if I could ever have one of my sons to follow in that man's footsteps, I would by happy." I inquired, and he was the only lawyer Fountain Green had ever produced up to that time. I decided at that time, come what may, I was going to be a lawyer, and I worked to that end until I became one. HB: You received your law degree from a school in Chicago, didn't you? IH: Yes, from La Salle. HB: La Salle? IH: University. HB: How long were you studying in Chicago? IH: Well, I studied by correspondence four years. HB: Oh, I see. How long have you and Mrs. Huggins lived in Ogden? IH: Since 1923. 3 HB: You probably know that I've been conferring with her quite a bit over the telephone. IH: Yes. She had confided in me on an occasion that she's been talking with a handsome gentleman from Weber State College and of course I knew that would be you. HB: Well, I wish I could believe that. Like Merlon Stevenson says, "I don't believe a word you say, but keep on saying it." IH: Nevertheless, it is true. HB: How did you become so interested in the welfare and the development of Weber College? It was Weber College at that time, of course. IH: Well, I was admitted to the practice of law in June 1925 and in 1928, I became secretary to the Weber County Democratic Party. Aaron Tracy, who was then the president of Weber College, became a close friend of mine in our political activities. Through President Tracy, I became very much interested in Weber College. I was elected to the Utah State Senate in 1930 and President Tracy and I continued our association and interest in Weber College because during that time, the whole world, I suppose, was in a depression and the Mormon Church owned and operated Weber College, Snow College, and Dixie College. Let it be known that they desired to transfer those three colleges to the state. In the event they were not transferred, they intended to close them down, and I began working for Weber College at that time. HB: That's very interesting. You knew Mr. Tracy well, I assume. IH: Very well. Exceptionally well. 4 HB: Anything you'd care to say about him which would be of interest in the history of this institution? IH: Well, briefly, I think Aaron Tracy was one of the most gracious gentlemen I ever knew, and certainly one of the most dedicated men I ever knew. At that time, President Tracy's salary was a hundred dollars a month, and he frequently gave up some of his salary to help young people in this vicinity pay tuition to enroll in Weber College. He also took calves, pigs, chickens and farm produce as part of their tuition and went out and sold them on his own. HB: For heaven sakes. Well, that is certainly a tribute to the man. I've heard so many fine things about Mr. Tracy. I have spoken with him, but I haven't known too much of his history except as I've gained it from people that I have visited with. What other presidents of the college did you personally know and how many did you perform services for? IH: I think the gentleman who succeeded President Tracy was Dr. Creer and I was very well acquainted with him, worked with him, on behalf of Weber College, then, of course, President Dixon. I worked on the Advisory Council under his direction for sixteen years. I was chairman of the Advisory Council for the last four years of my term. Then, when President Miller came here, he and I worked together very closely with respect to Weber College and its interests. Of course, I had a voice in the selection of President Bishop, who is now the president of Weber College, because I was on the State Board of Higher Education. It is one of the functions of that board to select the presidents of the colleges and universities in this state. 5 HB: You were chairman of the Board of Trustees and also chairman of the Advisory Council for Weber State College for sixteen years. IH: Yes, as I said, I was chairman of the Advisory Council for sixteen years. Then, when Weber College became a four year institution, and became entitled to a Board of Trustees of its own, I was appointed trustee at the beginning of Weber's four year tenure, and served four years, then I was made chairman of the Board of Trustees and I served in that capacity for four years, after which I was appointed to the State Board of Higher Education. I've been on the State Board of Education now for four years. HB: We would be here for a long time if we just enumerated the numerous positions you have held. I've been at Weber since 1946 and I really personally feel that President Dixon was one of the finest, best administrators I've worked under. IH: Yes, I've worked very closely with President Dixon. HB: Yes, and I feel that President Miller is certainly a great man too. He's a great humanitarian and he has a lot of empathy about him and he has a lot of understanding of how to handle the job of the presidency of Weber College. I think as the years roll by, I appreciate him more. IH: I think President Miller was one of the greats in educational administration. HB: He is a very gracious gentleman. IH: Very gracious. HB: As you noted, you were elected to the Utah State Senate in 1930. Would you care to comment on that? You served in that body from 1930 to 1946 inclusive. 6 IH: Well, my election was of some interest particularly to me because prior to 1930, Weber County had not had a Democratic official elected for several years. In 1930, Albert Becker, who was a very prominent Ogden citizen, in the brewery business, was nominated by the Republicans. President Tracy induced me to accept the nomination for the same office on the Democratic ticket. I had no idea that I would be elected, but I was. I served from then through 1946. HB: You were chairman of the joint Senate and House Appropriations Committee, and the Revenue and Taxation Committee? IH: Yes, and the Committee on Judiciary, Committee on Highways, and then I was president of the Senate, 1939 to 1940. HB: Let's see, you helped sponsor legislation to transfer junior colleges owned by the Church at that time, to the state of Utah, did you not? IH: Yes, I did. HB: That’s certainly saved these institutions, did it not? Wouldn't they have been closed down at that time? IH: Yes. This was in 1932 or 1933. I'm not exactly sure of the year. HB: Well, Weber College dates back to 1933. IH: That's perhaps correct. Together with two or three other members of the Senate, I was called in by the First Presidency of the LDS Church. Heber J. Grant was president of the church at that time, and he advised us that the church could no longer continue operating the junior colleges. As I said before, we were in a very serious depression. In 1933, for instance, less than thirty three percent of the total taxes in the state of Utah were paid, and President Grant said that income 7 to the church, including tithing, had slipped very badly and he was unable to keep the colleges running. Then too, he thought, that the church ought not to be in competition with the state in the field of education. He said, among other things, that the church would continue to operate the Brigham Young University at Provo, and Ricks College in Rexburg, Idaho. Well, up until that time, there had been three bills presented in the House of Representatives to take the junior colleges over and all three of them had failed. I went to Governor Blood after meeting with the First Presidency and asked him if we could get a bill through, would he sign it and make the junior colleges a part of the state educational system? He said no, not unless we could produce additional revenue. I don't know if you want to hear how we produced that revenue or not. HB: Absolutely. Yes. IH: Well, at that time, we had two breweries operating in the state—Becker's in Ogden and Fisher's in Salt Lake City. We had prohibition in the state of Utah, but prohibition had been repealed nationally. So those two breweries were manufacturing and trying to sell "Becco" and "Near Beer." But not near enough beer for people to buy it! The two breweries were going broke. This I knew, and so I got in touch with Judge James A. Howell, here in Ogden, and asked him if I could get a bill through the legislature to permit the breweries to manufacture beer in the state of Utah, for sale outside the state, and impose a manufacturer's tax on each barrel? I think it was a dollar a barrel and would the breweries go along with it? So he consulted his client—he represented Beckers. He reported 8 back that they would be very glad to go along with that. At that time, I was Bishop of the Ogden Tenth ward of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and I felt a little inhibited about sponsoring a beer bill while I served in that capacity. So I told Judge Howell that I would consult with the First Presidency and get their permission before I prepared and presented such a bill. I called the First Presidency and talked with President David O. McKay, who was President Grant's counselor at the time. I told President McKay what I had in mind, and I asked him if the First Presidency had any objections to my sponsoring such legislation. He asked me to give him an hour's time with which to confer with the other members of the presidency and he would report back. He called me back at the end of the hour and said he saw no reason why I could not sponsor such legislation. The church would have no objections to it because they had learned that throughout Prohibition, there had been a plant manufacturing alcohol in Midvale, Utah and he thought that that was certainly a higher degree of intoxicating beverage than beer. He said that they would give me their blessing to get the bill through. This was the last day of the session, and we had to get the unanimous consent of the Senate to introduce the bill on that day. So I prepared a bill and we had a night session. I offered the bill at that time. Senator Sutherland from Sanpete County was the dean of the Senate, and it was almost impossible to get any bill introduced or passed in the Senate without his approval. He was a farmer in Sanpete County and a cattle raiser, and when I asked permission to introduce my bill, he turned to me and said, "what's the nature of your bill?" I said, "It's an 9 agricultural bill," because I knew they made beer out of barley and hops. He gave his consent. He never forgave me after that night but the bill passed under suspension of the rules in the Senate and the House and was signed by Governor Blood a day or two later. All the tax, of course, from the manufacture of beer then, was allocated to the operation of Weber, Snow, and Dixie Colleges. HB: Well, that is certainly vital history. IH: A little interesting and I don't know whether I should be proud of it, but I'm proud of the results. HB: Well, someone had to make the beer, so why not here? IH: Incidentally, since Prohibition had been repealed nationally, Colorado, Nevada and New Mexico were already manufacturing beer. Of course, they put up signs around the border of the state of Utah which read, "Let Utah Use What Utah Brews." They didn't like Utah's competition. HB: I guess the church was rather agreeable, wasn't it, to turn over the physical plants of the institutions which they owned to the state? Did you help work out the agreement with them concerning that? IH: Yes, I did. Prior to the time that I had prepared the bill, I had negotiated with the church for a basis upon which the properties belonging to the three colleges would be transferred to the state. The First Presidency agreed that they would transfer all of the physical properties of the church, being used by the three colleges to the state on the condition that they'd be transferred back to the church if they ceased to be used for educational purposes. As you know, much of 10 the lower Weber College campus, I suppose all of it, was returned to the church when the upper campus was developed. HB: That's right. IH: In accordance with that agreement. HB: That's what happened. I just wondered at the moment what the stipulations were with respect to Brigham Young College. IH: Do you refer to the Brigham Young College in Logan? HB: Yes. IH: I don't believe the campus at Logan was turned over to the state. I think the church retained that. HB: You made a comment or two concerning the work you did with President Tracy, Dr. Creer, Dr. Dixon, and Dr. Miller to get adequate appropriations through the legislature for Weber College. IH: Yes, I worked all the time I was in the Senate under the direction and with the assistance of President Tracy, President Creer, President Dixon, Senator Frank Fowles from Ogden, and Senator Dexter Farr from Ogden. One of our very staunch assistants in the House was Representative Wilmer J. Maw from Plain City. HB: Oh yes, is he related to former Governor Maw? IH: Distantly yes. HB: I see. Well, I notice here too, that there was some effort made to upgrade the campus at Weber and the buildings, and some efforts were made to obtain gifts and appropriations for the operation of this institution. I wonder about how far 11 back we'd have to go to find out when efforts were made to make this into a four year institution. Did President Tracy have any idea? IH: Yes, President Tracy fought continually to make Weber a four year college and said many times to me that it was one of the main things he wanted to do during his lifetime. President Creer was not particularly active in that movement. President Dixon was very active in that movement until he accepted the position as president of what was then the Utah Agricultural College. HB: Yes. IH: At that time of course, he had transferred his outward allegiance to the agricultural college and he was not in a very good position to help Weber get four year status. In 1953, I think, the legislature passed a bill creating Weber as a four year institution and Governor Lee vetoed the bill. HB: I had a conference with Mr. Lee—I guess I should bare my chest and tell you the story. I've had many opportunities throughout my life to meet J. Bracken Lee. But I never condescended, if that's the right word, to meet him until I had asked him for an interview when I became the director of the oral history museum. IH: Well, that's a good thing. HB: I never was treated with more warmth than I was by Mr. Lee. My wife went down with me and we had quite a session. I guess we talked just over two hours, and we taped about 90 minutes. He was willing to talk some more, and I think it would be interesting, if you ever have the opportunity to listen to the tape, to see if everything he said was valid. 12 IH: I'm sure it would be. Governor Lee, I'm sure, was honest. Governor Lee was a friend of mine long before he became Governor. I had one rather serious run in with him before he vetoed the bill to make Weber a four year institution. There were seventeen members of the teaching profession elected to the House of Representatives, and Governor Lee demanded they all resign because, he said, they were serving unconstitutionally. They could not serve in the legislature and remain in the pay of the state as a teacher. This was after I had left the Senate and so the Utah Educational Association came to me and asked if I would help them eliminate the possibility of Governor Lee getting the resignation of seventeen teachers. I reminded him that if these seventeen teachers resigned, the Governor of the state of Utah would be in the unique position of having to appoint seventeen legislators. I didn't think it was a wholesome situation, and I intended, if he insisted upon the resignation, to write a story for the Salt Lake Tribune, the Deseret News, and the Ogden Standard Examiner explaining that the Governor had demanded the resignation of seventeen members of the legislature so he could reappoint their sucessors. That night, he agreed not to insist upon the resignation. HB: Is that right? I think you performed a great service there. How do they resolve that problem now? IH: They serve now without any question. HB: No question about it. IH: No question about it at all. I think the attorney general was asked to render an opinion, which he did. I think perhaps Governor Lee might have asked for the 13 opinion, and he stated in his opinion, they could serve in both capacities. Incidentally, you'll recall perhaps that after he vetoed the four year act, he somehow got through the legislature, a bill to terminate the junior colleges in the state of Utah. Much information, misinformation, I should say, has gotten around that Governor Lee got the legislature to transfer the schools back to the Mormon Church. That is not true. He simply got a bill through to terminate them. They were up for grabs. Any organization that wanted them could take them over. Well, of course, that couldn't have been done I'm sure, at least, that the church wouldn't have let its properties go to just any organization. They would have demanded the properties back. But in any event, I became a member of the Educational Committee of the Ogden Chamber of Commerce which sought to repeal that bill by initiative, and referendum. I made twenty eight talks to civic clubs and other oganizations from Logan to Cedar City in opposition to that bill, and we were enabled by a vote of the public, to repeal that bill. HB: You helped to spearhead that referendum then. IH: Yes, I did. HB: Well, then, that's remarkable. I recall the faculty donated time as notary publics. IH: Yes. HB: In order to get the signatures throughout the state. IH: Well, I think members of the teaching staff of Weber College covered almost the entire state getting signatures and notarizing them to get sufficient signatures to get it on the ballot. 14 HB: Yes, I remember that. I went out on some tours with Dr. Dello Dayton and well, the faculty was quite active in this. IH: Very active. HB: They donated freely. You probably recall that when we bought the land up here that President Dixon got rolling and the faculty donated for that. IH: Yes. HB: There's a lot of people on the faculty now that don't appreciate the work that's been done by you pioneers and many of the old timers who served on the faculty. IH: I'm sure many of them do not realize the amount of time and effort that went into sustaining the college as such. I'm frank to say, in my opinion, had it not been for the efforts of the staff on this campus that the referendum would have failed. HB: I sometimes have to laugh when they talk about the problems of finances on this campus, and salaries. Why, I think that the salaries are quite high compared to what some of us old timers used to get. IH: Well, of course, there's no comparison at all because— HB: They paid in kind too, as you pointed out. IH: Yes, that is true. HB: There's a time at Weber when they were paid in potatoes and carrots and flour and things of that sort. IH: I'm sure that is true. Yes. 15 HB: That's something I don't believe a lot of people on this campus realize. The old timers were about as well qualified, I would say educationally, as they are today, and probably more dedicated. IH: Probably so. Yes, yes. HB: I notice that you made speeches before the Kiwanis, the Rotary, the PTA and other civic organizations. You are very active in the Kiwanis Club. You were governor of it, weren't you? IH: Yes. Utah-Idaho District governor of Kiwanis, yes. HB: Also president of the local organization. IH: I think I spoke to every Kiwanis Club In the state except the one at St. George. HB: Well. IH: And several of the Rotary Clubs—Ogden, Salt Lake City, Provo, I think Logan and many other organizations. HB: Yes, you were vice president and president of the Kiwanis Club of Ogden, and also lieutenant governor of the Utah-Idaho District of Kiwanis International. IH: Yes. HB: I felt that the honorary degree given in 1970 was certainly a fitting recognition for the wonderful service you performed for Weber State College. IH: Well, that was one of the highlights of my life and I was highly honored to receive that distinct honor. HB: Well, I can certainly say that the people at Weber were unanimous in feeling that there were very few people who deserve that more than you. 16 IH: Well, many people worked long hours to accomplish what has been accomplished on this campus and I'm more proud perhaps of Weber State College than I am of any other institution in the state, except my church. HB: Well, I feel that way about it, too. I was an alumnus, as you know, of Utah State University and also an alumnus of Brigham Young University, but when Weber plays Utah State or the University of Utah, in basketball or football, I'm in there rooting for Weber State. IH: So am I. HB: That is something now. IH: Yes, and it might be of interest to you to know that all the while I was on the Board of Trustees at Weber College, the Board of Trustees worked to induce Utah State University and the University of Utah to engage Weber State College in interstate athletics. We had a deuce of a time getting them to become associated in any capacity with Weber College. Now, of course, we've beaten both Utah State and the University of Utah and I think we could beat Brigham Young University in basketball. HB: That's right. I'm sure of that. I've never seen a team that plays together better than this year's team at Weber State College. IH: Yes, I think we have the best team we have ever had. We don't have the outstanding stars that we have sometimes had in the past, but we do have a better team playing. I was quite interested in one of the members of the State Board of Higher Education, who said that recently Weber College has been one 17 of the most fortunate schools in the state of Utah, in selecting its basketball coaches. HB: They've certainly had some great people. I talked to J. Bracken Lee a few months ago and he gave me the impression that he had been encouraged to carry on what he was doing with regards to the transfer of the college by certain church leaders. What do you think? IH: I don't think he had the approval of the First Presidency in trying to transfer the junior colleges for this reason—that information did not get out. I was working, of course, in the church, to bring about the defeat and the repeal of this bill and considerable information came back to me that I stood to lose my standing in the church because of the attitude I was taking to get this bill repealed. That of course, made me rather unhappy, so David Wilson and I went down and met with David O. McKay. I told him what the information was and what the rumors were and he said nothing could be further from the truth. The church does not want those schools back and the church will not take them back, except if they cannot be operated otherwise. HB: He said that? IH: Yes, he said that to David Wilson and I. The church, he said, would not take them back, except to keep them open. Then the rumor got around, in an effort to turn them back over to the church, that the Catholic church would take them over if we didn't. HB: That was a rumor too. 18 IH: That was a rumor too. I also went down and met with Stephen L. Richards, who was one of President McKay's counselors, and asked him if there was any truth to that. He said, "No. There's no truth in that at all." He said, “I'm a good friend of Bishop Hunt of the Catholic church, and the only indication that the Catholic church has ever given that they were interested in taking over these junior colleges was when Bishop Hunt called me and asked me if the Mormon church would take them over,” and I said, “Yes, we would to avoid closing them.” He said, "Then we are not interested, if the Mormon church will keep them open in the event that the bill is not repealed." HB: I think that is quite interesting. I suppose what Mr. Lee said was that some individual, not speaking for the First Presidency, had advised him. IH: I think I know who started the rumor that the Mormon church wanted these colleges back and he was certainly in no position to speak for the church. He was not a member of the First Presidency and he was not a member of the Twelve. HB: There were even some stake presidents who were working for Weber to be turned back to the church and these other schools too. IH: Yes, they are the ones who challenged me. HB: Some of the leaders in Ogden went to President McKay and I understand they got their wrists slapped. IH: That's right, they did. HB: There's just one or two other items I'd like to cover with you. Rumors still prevail, and I'm not trying to put anybody on the spot here at all, but ever since I've been at Weber I had the feeling that there's a certain effort to make Weber College into 19 a technical institute and there's a feeling that the idea still prevails. I feel that Weber has turned out to be quite a liberal arts college as well as a technical school and I think it should remain that. IH: Well, I think I can tell you about the attitude of the State Board of Higher Education. The accusation which has come to our board frequently, that we were trying to phase out Weber State College as a vocational-technical institution, is not true. We have, at Weber State, a very unique situation in that the vocational-technical colleges in Provo and Salt Lake City are vocationaltechnical schools exclusively. Their students are not accepted on the campus of the University of Utah. They're looked upon as second class students because they do not get an academic degree. Now, Weber State College and the Board of Higher Education recognizes this, has on the same campus, a vocational technical school and the academic college as well. The two function together and we don't have the classification of first class and second class students on this campus. They merge together and it's an ideal situation and I wish we could get it in all the other schools. HB: That's what it should be. IH: I assure you of this, the State Board of Higher Education has no intention of phasing out the academic program at Weber State College. They do want the two to function together here. HB: Well, I think, that's only logical. I think a man should be able to function in the liberal arts as well as technical and I have a great deal of respect for a man that understands the technical side of things. 20 This boy that's operating this machine here, the fellow I introduced you to, Mr. Reese, is a graduate of the electronics school over here. Now he's going into computer science. He's the man who put together this equipment here that's recording our talk here, all this equipment that you've noticed in this room over here. IH: That's interesting. HB: He's got his liberal arts along with his technical and that balances the man out. IH: It does. I think there's a very great need for a vocationally trained student to have enough academic training and education so that he can confer successfully with his fellow man. I know mechanics, good mechanics, that I've come in contact with in Utah, who were unable to fill out a statement of their services. Now they lack the academic training which they should have to be successful businessmen. HB: I think this is the best type of general education that we could get. Of course, general education is a liberal education, and when tied up with a technical education, that's an extraordinary service that's being performed for these young people. IH: Well, how can a technician be successful in his operation if he cannot communicate with other people. HB: That's right. IH: Communications, you know, the field of communications, is the background for almost every business. 21 HB: The aim of Weber for a long time, I presume it still is, is to learn to live a full life as well as to make a living. IH: I think that's an ideal situation. HB: I'm glad to hear you say that, Mr. Huggins. What do you think is the specific function Weber should perform in the state educational system? IH: I think it should continue as it is doing now. I think that by reason of its location, we have two very splendid hospitals in this vicinity. Weber should have allocated to it very much of of the paraprofessional health fields. Eventually, not now, perhaps there's no need for it now, but eventually, Weber will, in some degree, become a graduate university in some field. Not a general graduate university, but in some fields it will offer graduate programs. HB: It'd be fine it the state could afford it. IH: Yes it would. HB: I don't know if the state could, and I think that's probably one of the things that stopped the growth of Weber somewhat. I do believe that the state is limited in its resources and it can spread things too thin. One thing that you men are attempting to do on the higher board, and I think you've always stood for this, is to provide education in depth and have qualified people. IH: This is true. HB: I feel this about Weber, and I think you'll agree with me, that Weber has a young faculty, and I believe they're quite comparable, degree wise, with the University of Utah, Utah State and Brigham Young. 22 IH: I'm sure of that and on the board, Weber State College is known and is frequently referred to as the "economy school" of the state of Utah. Weber State College educates its students for less cost per capita than any other college in the state of Utah. Now there are two reasons for that. President Miller, as you well know, was a very conservative and honest man, and when he prepared a budget. There was no fat in it at all. He came down with an honest, fair budget and of course when budgets are gone into by the legislature, they know that in some cases, fat has crept into budgets, and when there comes a cut, they cut out all of them, on the theory that all of them have fat in them. Perhaps you'll remember the past four of five years the governor has had to reduce the appropriations of each state institution a certain percentage. Well, when Weber is already operating on a thin budget, to cut its budget four percent, is unfair to Weber College. One of the reasons for that is when Weber College became a four year institution, its salaries were so much lower than the salaries of the other institutions, it facilities were less. It will take perhaps a couple of decades to bring it up on to par with the other institutions. You can't bring these things up overnight. You have to come up gradually. We are coming up gradually and we've got the salaries now, at Weber State, pretty much up to par with the salaries of the other institutions for the same work, but it takes time and you know the building program on Weber State College has had a tough time in its development. It's been difficult to get appropriations sufficiently large to develop the facilities which were needed here. The library, I'm sure, is very short 23 of its needs. We're just now getting the appropriation through to enlarge the library but it takes time. HB: I do believe that every effort ought to be made to continue the work that has already bean done with respect to this history museum. IH: Well, I think so too, very definitely. HB: When I took over the job that I have now, I was shocked to find that the library did not have a complete set of college catalogs and it doesn't have yet. I've been able to push the thing back to about 1946. We have all the catalogs from 1946 to present. I was able to find one catalog that was dated about 1895, and I think one about 1902. I was not able to get beyond that. Now the registrar's office has got copies of them and I think the library should have a complete set of them. About the only way they can do that, I'm afraid, is to make copies of them. I've sent out letters, you received one. I read it a little earlier before you arrived, wherin I stated that we needed to get as much history as we can. When I took the job over, I had been going out and tried to get documents and and get the Acorns in shape, get all the copies that are available, get the old Herald and Signpost, and get everything I could get because someone will come along some day and want to write history. Mrs. Hall has written some valuable information that's all very useful, but we will want to someday get a professional historian to put all these things together and write the complete history of this college. IH: I think that's an excellent idea. HB: Well, I don't want to hold you too long. I know you'll probably be going to the symphony in a few hours, but what do you think the future of Weber State 24 College is? Do you think you've already indicated some of that, I believe; you said that you felt that probably the time would come where we would have a limited graduate program. IH: Yes, I think it will become one of the three, public universities in the state. I think that feeling is very general in the Board of Higher Education. We recognize that by reason of its strategic location, it can serve a greater number of people perhaps than any other institution in the state save the University of Utah. And that, in my thinking, is its ultimate goal and destination. I think Weber College has a very interesting and important history. It has functioned and performed a very important service to the people of the state of Utah. Wherever you go, you meet students from Weber College and they all excel. You take in the East, where many great men are serving in administrative capacities in many great corporations, you'll find interspersed among them, many fine students from Weber College. It has a very important function to perform in the educational field in the state of Utah and it will become more important as time goes on. It's developing and building into full bloom, I think. HB: Well, this is certainly good to hear, and coming from a man with your stature, I think it really is something. I certainly feel proud to have been associated with this school for so many years. I am a little bit angry at the calendar because of what its done to me but I certainly want to take this opportunity, Mr. Huggins, to thank you so much for your time and for your devotion and dedication to Weber State College. I think you are certainly one of the distinguished citizens who have done so much for the school and helped to make it the great school that it is. 25 IH: Well, I appreciate your feelings. You've always been very kind and gracious to me which I have appreciated very much and I now appreciate, but I want to remind you of one thing—when the calendar ceases to be kind to you, you won't be here any longer. HB: Thank you very much. I certainly do appreciate it. IH: It's been a pleasure. Thank you very much.