Oral History Program Phyllis Crouch Interviewed by Michael MacKay 16 March 2004 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Phyllis Crouch Interviewed by Michael MacKay 16 March 2004 Copyright © 2004 by Weber State University, Stewart Library Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description The Weber State College/University Student Projects have been created by students working with several different professors on the Weber State campus. The topics are varied and based on the student's interest or task for a specific assignment. These oral history assignments were created to help Weber State students learn the value and importance of recording public history and to benefit the expansion of the Weber State oral history collections. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Crouch, Phyllis, an oral history by Michael MacKay, 16 March 2004, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Leslie Simmons Hodgson 1879-1947 Abstract: This is an oral history interview with Phyllis Crouch. It was conducted on March 16, 2004 and concerns her grandfather, Leslie Simmons Hodgson. Hodgson was an important architect in Ogden during the early part of the 1900s. He is best known for his work on Ogden High School, the City/County building, and the Egyptian Theater. The interviewer is Michael MacKay. This oral history was part of MacKay’s senior thesis for the Weber State University History Department. MM: I'm Michael MacKay and today we're at Phyllis Crouch's house, and the date is March 16, 2004, right? And we're going to do an interview for Leslie Hodgson. And Phyllis is Leslie's granddaughter and her mother was Norma, Leslie's daughter. What number was Norma in the line of children? PC: She was the second daughter. MM: The second daughter. PC: Yeah. They had several that they lost. MM: Right, there were four that they lost and five that they had. And tell us once more, how old were you when Leslie died? PC: I think about nine. MM: About 9 years old. Okay. What were some of the memories that you have about your grandfather? 1 PC: Just that I really, really loved him, but I didn't get to know him very well, even though there was one house between ours and his. MM: Okay, so you guys lived two houses down, or just one house in between. Oh wow. PC: I used to watch him work in the yard, and he'd cut a big circle out of the grass and fill it full of pansies, and I used to think that was just...I love them to this day. And then my grandma would press them and make pictures of pressed pansies on satin. MM: Oh. Wow. PC: Really a keepsake to have. MM: So did he do a lot of gardening, from what you can remember? PC: He did some there, and then he did a lot up at the canyon home. He was always raking and... MM: Doing something, huh. Did you go up to the canyon home much? PC: Uh huh. Quite a bit. MM: How often did you guys go up to the canyon? PC: It wasn't anything regular. We just used to go up there a lot during the summer. MM: Randomly during the summer. Oh, that's great. How did you perceive your grandfather? What kind of man do you remember him as? 2 PC: Very humble. Extremely humble, and very quiet. Very dignified. Always proper, you know, just little proper things, like when we walked down the street with him in Ogden, he'd tip his hat. MM: Uh huh. PC: He was just special. MM: Lou tells us that he knew quite a few people in Ogden. He was kind of a famous guy at the time? PC: Yeah, I noticed when we walked down the street, he was... MM: He had to tip his hat to everyone. Wow. Laughs So did you have many outings like that with your grandpa, where you'd go downtown or be with him like that? PC: It seems like I must have, but I don't know what the occasion. I just remember being there with him. MM: Spending time with him. That's wonderful. Do you remember when he passed away? Do you remember the environment, what it was like when he passed away? PC: I know my environment. MM: It was pretty hard. Was that the general feel with everyone in your family? PC: Yeah. I was just a little kid but I had to be medicated. I just wasn't coping. MM: Really, so you took it so hard that you had to take meds to calm you down? So he meant a lot to you in your life? 3 PC: Well, and the upheaval with everybody around, so traumatized. It was just a hard time. MM: Yeah, sounds like it was. So you say there was an upheaval. Was everyone upset like you were when he died? PC: Uh huh. I don't know. People take things differently. MM: Yeah. What was your grandmother's reaction? PC: Oh, she found him. She was just hysterical. She wouldn't sleep alone in the house for years. MM: Oh. Really? She needed someone to stay with her? Sounds like it was a real devastating time. Do you remember part of the, like the community, that you were involved in? Did everyone, even beyond your family...Did it impact many people beyond the family? PC: I think all the flags were half-mast. MM: Oh really? PC: At least the ones I knew of were, and I thought that was quite a tribute... MM: Yeah, that really is. PC: Because you don't see that, you know. His tenderness. I remember when we took a birthday cake up to him and walked up and rang the doorbell, and mama held the cake out to him, and then we started singing, and the tears just streamed down his face. Very tender. 4 MM: That's awesome. Do you remember your mother's reaction to when he passed away? PC: Yeah, she was devastated. She was also trying to help me, because I was her youngest, and she knew what I was going through. I had nightmares. I'd go get in her bed, because I dreamed she'd die and, so she was busy taking care of me. MM: It sounds like she was a great mother. Now how long ago did your mother pass away? Has it been quite a while? PC: She was 87. MM: 87? PC: No, 90. Anyway, it's been five years in August. Oh, 97. Or wait, wait, 99, five years in August. Well, I just know it was five years in August, because my husband retired in August, the same month or the month after. MM: Did your mother ever relate stories to you about your grandfather, or tell you much about him? PC: Yeah, she tells a lot of things about him, but I can't remember. She just had such a tenderness. MM: Yeah of course. That seems to be the...I think everyone that I talk to that met him has got the real tender part of their heart; he touched a lot of people. PC: We named our oldest daughter after him. 5 MM: Oh, you did? So your oldest daughter's name is Leslie? Oh that's great. Does the impact of his buildings that he designed in Ogden...Do even your children know about all those? PC: Well, especially Mike. MM: Oh yeah. Mike especially. And Mike is...Now, he's not an architect, but he's a designer? Is that what it is? PC: Well, he owns Hearthstone Designs. MM: Hearthstone Designs. Heartstone? Is that it? PC: Hearth. MM: Hearth. Hearthstone. Okay. Yeah, now did he get involved with designing because he knew about his grandfather, or he just picked it up? PC: I think maybe it was in the genetics. MM: In the genes. Laughs And he's...Now, Mike has taken a liking to Leslie and gone out and found a lot of his newspaper clippings and... PC: Oh yeah, very close. MM: But he wasn't actually alive? Yeah. Does he...What do you think has spurred that interest in Leslie to him? PC: DNA. MM: Common interest, and DNA. Laughs 6 PC: Mike was really pleased with it. You know, just any little thing that could... Here's the letter. And he has the creek. MM: Right. In his office. PC: Yeah. MM: Yeah. I notice he has a drawing of Ogden High in his office also. PC: That started way long time ago. MM: Really? Even when he was a kid? PC: Well, probably in high school or younger. MM: High school or younger. Wow. It sounds like he's had an impact, even to his great grandchildren. PC: Well, I think so. MM: Is there any other of your children that have been affected by his legacy? Just…Let's see, so your mother was the second oldest daughter, and she lived two houses away from him. PC: One house. One house, and then there was our house, and I think, ours and Phyllis. MM: Oh, so Phyllis even lived on the same street. PC: Yeah. Oh I was raised with Phyllis' boys. In fact, when they were in the Army. Phyllis and her husband were in the Army, so her older boys lived in our house so they went to school, and went to high school and graduated. They were like 7 brothers. See, we had four girls, and they were the closest to brothers, and they lived from our house. They came home to our house. One of them brought a little German flag, or kite. We used to get more and more and more string, and I'll never forget the exhilaration of being out there...His name's Leslie, but we call him Jim. MM: Right. Laughs PC: But I just remember standing out there and the exhilaration of, you know, so there was a closeness there, too. MM: Well, that's great. Did you guys continue to live on the same street after he passed away, or you moved away? PC: No, my folks...I lived there until I got married, and then mother had been a widow and she remarried and moved away. MM: Moved away after that. What about Phyllis and her family? Did they stay around? PC: Around the area. They stayed in Ogden. Around there. MM: That's amazing that the families still lived in the same spot. That's great. Did you ever go to Leslie's work with him, or your grandfather's work with him? PC: Huh uh. MM: Oh you never went with him? Today, when you...Are you still associated with...When people are speaking of those buildings, are you still able to associate your family with the building itself? PC: Oh, yes. Oh, my grandpa designed it. 8 MM: Yeah. Well, you said that you went to Ogden High School. We went on that tour together. What was the reaction of the children at the school, when you were going there, when they found out that you were related to Leslie? PC: Well. I felt like that would be bragging, so I didn't say a lot about it. You know, I was quiet, but... MM: Yeah. PC: The people I did talk about it to were very impressed. MM: So did the kids when you were going to Ogden High School have a pride about the school that it was such a nice school? PC: Yes. MM: Let's see, when did you attend Ogden High School? PC: I graduated in '56. MM: '56. So it had been opened in '36, so it had been 20 years, and people still found it to be one of the best high schools. Wow, that's amazing. I know you had a lot of memories there. You sat in the chair that you sat in when you graduated, and your husband sat right next to you. PC: Uh huh. MM: That's pretty neat. With that kind of legacy with the buildings that he built, did your mother also take pride in all the buildings that he built in Ogden? 9 PC: We all did. You know, I really wanted to go to my class reunion. I missed it, and I just...I had fibromyalgia, so I really didn't look like I was going to get to go, but to go that day, just took care of that longing. You know, it really says something in me that I'm needed, and I just wanted to thank you for that, cause it was really special. MM: I was happy to do it with you. MM: Well, you know I was talking to Lou, and we were going to try to do something this summer where maybe we can go to Ogden High and stop by the Egyptian Theater and kind of just drive through the main downtown and look at the buildings and do it all in one trip so... Hopefully we can do that and get reservations to let them come in the building and look at it. PC: That'd be great! MM: Yeah, I'd like to do it, but hopefully, we can get a little bit bigger group. Maybe we can get all your cousins that are still alive and go up there. PC: I'd love that. MM: Yeah, I would definitely like to do that. PC: Mike would like to be in on that one. MM: Yeah, definitely have Mike come also. Let's see, is there anything else that you know about your grandfather that you'd like to put on our tape. PC: I just know I have such tender feelings towards him, his gentleness. 10 MM: I think it's amazing how one man can have such an effect throughout all the generations of his family to do so much. PC: It especially amazes me with Mike. MM: Yeah. PC: Well, Mike never even knew him, yet he had this strong tie to Leslie. That's pretty amazing. MM: Well, if there's not anything else, we can probably just stop it right there. PC: Okay. 11