Oral History Program Bart Wolthius Interviewed by Dale Smith 19 February 1971 i Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Bart Wolthius Interviewed by Dale Smith 19 February 1971 Copyright © 2014 by Weber State University, Stewart Library ii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in University Archives. The Stewart Library also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description The Weber State College/University Student Projects have been created by students working with several different professors on the Weber State campus. The topics are varied and based on the student's interest or task for a specific assignment. These oral history assignments were created to help Weber State students learn the value and importance of recording public history and to benefit the expansion of the Weber State oral history collections. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed Kelley Evans, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Wolthius, Bart, an oral history by Dale Smith, 19 February 1971, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Bart Wolthius. The interview was conducted on February 19, 1971, by Dale Smith. Mayor Wolthius discusses what a volunteer position was in a mayor-council form of government in Ogden, in which the mayor is elected by other council members and essentially has no more power than a council member. He also discusses urban renewal, benefits of Hill Air Force Base, mineral industries near the Great Salt Lake, and the need for city government to respond to minority pressure due to the Civil Rights Movement. DS: Mayor Wolthius, what are some of the qualifications necessary to become mayor, and how is the mayor chosen, or how is this done? BW: Dale, the qualifications would be, of course, you have to be a citizen of the United States. You have to have lived in the community, certainly for a period of time to be conversant with the problems. I suppose, legally, anyone could run for mayor as far as the time of residence. But the qualifications would be that the man sic would have time to spend because this is a time consuming job. I might point out, too, Dale, that in this position, the council receives, the individual members receive $25 a month remuneration for serving the city. However that isn't the complete picture. I do want to hasten to point out that in as much as we drive our cars, we do have other expenses that the council members receive $75 expense money. So you see, actually for a man to spend his time to devote to community activity, he has some kind of compensation of somewhere around $ 100 a month. The mayor receives $33 a month and then, of course, he receives $175 a month, which would tend to cover some of his expenses. DS: It doesn't seem like it is too much for the job you have to do. 1 BW: I one time figured that it was somewhere around 17 cents an hour that the council members earned. DS: Wow! BW: So this is, but basically, Mr. Smith, the individuals who serve the community of Ogden have to have a love in their heart for the city and are willing to give of their time because, as you can see, it would cost a man a considerable amount of money to spend the amount of time necessary to serve the people. The $25 plus the expense account does not begin to compensate the man for the time he has spent away from his own business. DS: I can see this. What is the mayor's main function? BW: The mayor's main function under the council-manager type of government - I might as well try and explain that to you now as much as I think eventually we'll get into it, inasmuch as you're talking about the mayor and the responsibility of the council members. The way that it's set up is that there are four districts in the community. Each area is called a ward. It's a geographical identity. And then these have to be fairly equal as far as the number of voters residing in each ward. From these wards will come a representative, and then there are also three council members elected at large. They can live anywhere in the city, so that you have then a total of seven. And from these seven is chosen the mayor to serve for a period of two years. I have always felt that the mayor should be selected and elected by the citizens in the community because I feel that he represents the citizens and they would feel better if they had a choice in choosing the individual who was to represent them. This last election, the change was placed before the voters as far as our charter was concerned, and it passed unanimously. So this fall the people of Ogden will have an opportunity to select the man that they want to serve them. 2 DS: This will be the 1971 election? BW: It will be the 1971 election. Now, let's see, I think the question was what is the responsibility of the mayor. The mayor's responsibility is to conduct all the meetings of the council. He is more or less the chairman of the board, so to speak. However his vote carries no more weight than does the vote of any of the other council members. He is only 1/7th. He has 1/7th of the vote. He also meets the dignitaries that come to town. He represents the city in all functions. For instance, if we have individuals coming from Washington, it is the responsibility of the mayor to represent the city in greeting these individuals who come to visit. Just the other day, we had members of the staff of Health Education and Welfare from Denver, and it was my responsibility to spend some time with these gentlemen to listen to their proposals, and for me, likewise, to have a good rapport with them, to extend our feeling of welcome, and also to point out the areas in which they could be of some benefit to us. I also help to provide information for the agenda. On Tuesdays we compile the agenda for our Thursday council meeting, and I am aware of these, the various items that will go on the agenda. So I do have some responsibility in getting that. Many times I will have received complaints from the citizens, though the council members can all receive these. But usually they feel, well, the mayor is the man who is responsible, so I'll call him. It's quite interesting how they will call all hours of the day and night to voice their complaints, whether it be barking dogs, or the water pressure being down, or - in this case this last summer - we had a great deal of quinortrics sic in the water supply; you know, this dark residue that we have. Of course people would call because this is an unhappy situation. But these are the things that we couldn't help because this was caused by the casings in 3 our walls finally rusting though because the water from Pineview Reservoir forcing this bacteria into the line. It was a harmless bacterium, but nevertheless it created quite a problem when it came to the laundry. Some of the people would get this stain on their clothes, and it was very hard to remove. Then, too, as you would draw the water from the tap, you'd see this dark suspension in the water. It wasn't very palatable. DS: You didn't know whether you wanted to drink it or not. BW: No, that's right. Now let's see, did I cover that? I believe at least to that, in general terms, it covers pretty well what the responsibility of the mayor is. DS: Okay. Now, Mayor Wolthius, when you were chosen to be mayor - I guess we could use the word "chosen" - did you have personal goals that you wanted to achieve while you were in this office? BW: Well, yes. I had some personal goals, Dale. First of all, the only reason that I consented to make myself available to run for the City Council was that I could see that there were some problems in the city, and I had a number of individuals who were interested in the city who had asked me to spend time, if I could get on the council to be elected, to try and solve some of these problems. Now, one of the great problems that we have had for a long period of time is the lack of recreational opportunities for the youth. As you look at the city, you could see that there are areas in Ogden which are woefully lacking in recreational opportunities. There are school buildings, of course, that are available; but there are no park areas. I felt that this was one of the responsibilities of the city to provide some opportunities along these lines. Also there was not a great deal of cooperation between the commission, the County Commission, and the City Council. And I felt this ought to be improved because the county commissioners, after all, do represent the 4 people in this community even though they are county commissioners. It's true they do represent everyone in the county, but when you begin to realize that the city is somewhere around 65 percent of the county, they represent us too. I felt that elected officials ought to have the opportunity to work closer together, and I felt that if we had a proper council, at least with a proper attitude, that this could be improved. At that particular time, we had some problems with the police department. There was a great deal of infighting, and so this is one reason why people had asked me to make myself available. I am very happy to say that we have been instrumental, that is when I say "we" I am talking as a council, seven members of a council, have been instrumental over the years to iron out some of these differences. We think that we have one of the finest police departments in the United States. It is because we, over the period of time, made these people appreciate that they have a professional responsibility. Not only that, but we do have a training program. We have a Civil Service Commission to protect their jobs that they might have some recourse if there are any problems... Of course the Civil Service Commission's been in force for quite a period of time. But we now have it working to the point that it's benefitting the workers of the community. Then I felt, too, that there were overlapping responsibilities in the county and city, costing us extra money. Now if we, for instance, take the Health Department. A number of years ago, we had the City Health Department, and we had the County Health Department being staffed by entirely different individuals, and yet they had responsibilities which are very parallel. Only the County Health Department had responsibilities out of the city limits, and they still had jurisdiction in Ogden City because they were county. Yet we had our own health department in the city. So we combined them. 5 Another thing we have moved along with some great steps and strides is that we now have a county library. I mean, it doesn't make sense to have Ogden City Library and the citizens of the county using it also. I mean, if that's the case, then let's make it a county library. The way it is now, it is now being funded by the county library. .. Another thing that I have felt we should work very closely with the county on is purchasing. So the county uses trucks; they use fire equipment; they use typewriters; they use radios in their squad cars. You name it, they use it. And the city uses it. And so it... doesn't make sense to me certainly, nor does it to any of the others on the council, that we should have overlapping here. We should have common purchasing. To point out, Dale, there is a great amount of money you can save in purchasing. Our purchasing department is able to purchase gasoline cheaper than the State of Utah is able to purchase it. DS: Oh boy! BW: Now, why is that? Well, the reason is that we think we have a man, Mr. Bruce McFarland, who does a great job. He makes these bidders sharpen their pencils, and so he saves us thousands of dollars a year because of this ... just one item alone. The county uses gasoline, and so it's imperative for us to say, "Okay, let's set up one man to do this." Now this is being brought about. It has taken a long time. But you see, we guard very jealously our own realms, and I suppose it's due to the fact that over the years we have identified ourselves - communities and certain boundary lines - and we felt that this has been very important for us to have this identity. There is nothing at all wrong with us to say, "Well, all right now, we're citizens of Ogden, and we're citizens of Weber County. By the same token, we're also interested in people living in the northern part of the state, as well as them living in all of the State of Utah." So you see, this goes very far. 6 DS: Okay, Mayor Wolthius, what are some of the most important Utah historical events that you have witnessed or participated in, in your life or during your tenure in office here? BW: Dale, this is, I think, kind of a difficult question to answer because, as you think back way over a lifetime, there are a number of things certainly that stand out. But whether or not they would have anything of great effect upon future historians, I don't know. But I'd just like to talk about a few things that I think ...have affected us. I think one of the greatest, in the recent times, is the Great Salt Lake Development. As you know, the scientists claimed that there are billions upon billions of dollars’ worth of minerals in the Great Salt Lake. The Great Salt Lake Development, which has been made possible, of course, through an act of Congress, has allowed... the state to enter negotiations with these firms to extract minerals from the brine of the Great Salt Lake. I don't believe that the people fully appreciate the great impact it's going to have on the economy. Not only say the northern part of the state, but in the state in general because as you begin to realize that some of this money is going to go into the state coffers, it's going to create jobs. It's going to create opportunities. See, in order for the Great Salt Lake Mineral Company to move out where they did, out at Little Mountain, it meant, of course, that they had to increase - our Utah Power and Light Company had to increase their power carrying responsibilities. They brought in extra lines from Kemmerer, Wyoming, which was a great task. The Mountain Fuel Supply Company is providing the gas for them out there. But this is just in its infant stages. There are many, of course, minerals, but magnesium chloride is what they are interested in at the present time. There are other companies, of course, on the other side of the lake that are working with lead. Of course, they're bringing common salt all the time from sodium chloride. And interestingly enough, Dale, because of this company coming 7 into the area, we're able to buy salt for our city streets at about one-third of what we had paid before because they produce, oh, many a ton a year more. That's one thing. I think another thing that would certainly stand out in my mind is the fact that Utah has been recognized for its scenic beauty. Now, a number of parks have been designated as national parks, and some as national monuments. So I think the last number of years, certainly Utah has come into prominence as far as the scenic views, the scenic values. Just the last few years, through the efforts of people in Davis County, Antelope Island was made accessible to us in building a road from Syracuse over to Antelope Island. Now, you know people come into this state, and there are usually two things that they think of first. First of all, they want to see either the Mormon temple, or they want to see the Great Salt Lake. These are the two things that they usually want to see... Well, of course they could see the temple and the tabernacle all right, and I think the LDS Church has done a good job in providing very attractive areas for the people to visit. They have a very nice visitors center now, explaining the mission of man, man upon Earth. So I think this has been good. But we have never been able to do very much to satisfy the wants of the people as far as seeing the Great Salt Lake. Oh, they go out to Black Rock. Of course that's not very desirable, and so this idea of having Antelope Island made available. I am hopeful that eventually, of course, this can be developed so that this can become a real tourist attraction. Because with tourists coming, you begin to appreciate that there is very little overhead for that dollar that comes in. DS: That is true. BW: You have very little pollution. Of course you do have some from the cars, but when you consider that it probably is our second or third largest industry in the state, very little really 8 is expended as far as capital is concerned for the people who spend this money. So these are the things that I think are important - the national parks, the national monuments, Antelope Island. I think another thing that...is important is the fact that we're beginning to realize that these old landmarks that we have in Utah, and certainly in the nation too, are being preserved rather than being bulldozed down and new buildings placed over these sites, over all these sites. I have been appalled at the way that we have treated some of these beautiful architecturally constructed buildings. You find that too many times, we here in America have misplaced values. We think because a thing is old, it is of no value. You say, travel to Europe, or you go to the Middle East or the Far East, and you see that people place an awful lot of emphasis and value in things that are old, and yet they're maintained. So I think that we're, the pendulum is swinging in the other direction now, where we're beginning to appreciate these things. We can't afford the luxury, really, of building and tearing down, and building and tearing down. I think what we need to do is to build and maintain, and build where we need to but not tear down. This is one of the problems, of course, that the country has recognized - the Congress, I should say - has recognized for the last number of years. They have the Community Renewal Program. They say, "All right, go on into the community and renew rather than tear down, and if something is beyond repair, then tear it down and rebuild. But rebuild it in such a way that it would complement the area and, architecturally speaking, it would fit into the area." Now, I am sure that you have seen those things as you have traveled throughout the area. And as you go, say, to Chicago, you have an old town in Chicago. They restored the old town, and it's beautiful. But these are old-fashioned buildings. You go to New Orleans, and you have the same thing. You have these buildings that are maybe 150 years old, 9 and yet they've maintained them, and in some cases, they've built new buildings right alongside an old building, and you can't tell which is the older of the two because they used the same architecture. So I... think that we have noted, we have seen this come about in the advent of time. Another thing - this may be a little facetious - but I think that one of the most important things that I have seen in my lifetime, here in Utah, is the imposition of the sales tax. When I was a boy, Governor Blood, during the Depression years, said, "All right, let's have a cent sales tax, and then as soon as we are soluble or solid, I should say, and our finances are such that we can meet our obligations, we'll eliminate the sales tax." We used to call it Blood money because Governor Blood was the one who initiated it. Okay now, see where we are? And we're desperately in need of sales tax even though we're more affluent now than we've been in the history of this nation. But yet, we feel now that we have to rely very heavily upon the sales tax. Well, these are some of the things that I think that maybe I can look back on and sometimes smile a little as to what's happened. But I'm glad to see that we're becoming more responsible. We're beginning to recognize our calling as a people, and the responsibility that we have as individuals and as a nation. This is what we must recognize. And I think that you'll find as we go through these various changes - and we're talking about bloodless revolutions - sure, you're going to have changes. All during the history of man, there have been changes, and sometimes they had not been bloodless, unfortunately. But actually, we feel, at least I do, that these changes which we see now are going to be brought about in an orderly manner, and I think as we look back on these changes that we say, "Well, some of these changes were good." Now, I'm not saying that 10 all change is good. But because of the pressure of economy, the pressure of the desires and wants of people, these changes have got to be made. Okay? DS: Talking about historical events, let me ask you what your opinion is of this space port they're trying to get into Utah. BW: Oh, I'm glad you asked that, Dale... Let me just point out that I spent some time with the governor today, along with some of the other mayors and county commissioners in the northern part of the state. Now, that doesn't mean that some of the other governors -1 mean some of the other mayors and the county commissioners would not be interested but he called a news conference, and he also called in the gentleman that I have indicated to point out that we were very much interested in this space port. Now, we have been for a long period of time. If we were able to convince these various committees who are now looking at four states that Utah is the ideal area for the space port, the impact upon our community would be so great that it would be difficult for us to appreciate fully what it would do eventually. Now, we're talking about future activity. DS: Right. BW: But it would tie Hill Air Force Base here permanently, as probably the operational headquarters for the space port. They, the governor, announced the appointment of various committee members, and I was impressed with the various individuals who were chosen. They are men who had a great knowledge of the space industry. They are men who are acquainted with computer technology. They are men who are acquainted with the geography and topography of the area. I would say that if Utah were fortunate enough to be chosen, this undoubtedly would be one of the most important historical events of this century... Now, let me just point out to you, this space port, what it would do. They would 11 launch vehicles from this space port. As you have read and heard for a number of years now, there would be stations in space - platforms - and they would commute from this space port to the platforms. Then from there, they would send explorations further into space than what we have been able to do at this time because so much of the thrust, so much of the fuel, is expended getting up to, say, 200,000 feet. DS: Getting out of the gravitational pull. BW: That is right. And if we, say, get a space platform somewhere 50 to 100 miles out into space, then take off from there, you can imagine how great the savings would be on fuel. So these are things that are very exciting. I am hopeful of that because of the united effort on the part of Utah. Now, as was indicated by Representative Sherman Lloyd the other day, this is not going to be won by ballyhoo, or by the fact that we think that motherhood is important. It is going to be won on hard, cold facts... because we can show that our area is better suited than some of the others, as I pointed out to you about topography, the accessibility for transportation, and ability of the power company to provide power, the gas company to provide gas, and the workforce here. Another interesting thing is they are looking to see what the density of the area is. Now, you can understand that they don't want land that has too many people living, say, in a square mile radius, a square area. Because within a radius of 500 miles of this space port, they want to be relatively free of great metropolitan development. You can see that. So you see, it would not only involve Utah, but it would involve Nevada, and it would involve Idaho because as you think of, say, Wendover, within 500 miles of that, you would get into Nevada, you would get into Idaho, you would get into Utah. So I ... am glad you brought this up. It would be a great step. Okay. 12 DS: Do you feel that this would be the most important event that - BW: Without a doubt! Without a doubt it is one of the most important events. Of course I think one of the most important events we've had, decisions, let me put it that way, is to place Hill Air Force Base where it is. It has provided a real boost to our economy where the employment has varied somewhere between - that is in the last number of years - say, somewhere between 15,000 and 20,000 people. It's had a great impact. Okay. DS: Let's get back to city government. What form of city government is in effect in Ogden at this time? BW: At the present time, Dale, we have the council-manager type of government. Now the reason that it is... over a number of years through the '40s and '50s, we're talking about just shortly after the war, a number of our community leaders had a notion that we could improve upon the type of government that we had. You see, with the council, with the commissioner type of government, and the mayor, we had some problems, and we had some fine men serving. I don't want to infer that we didn't. But let me just point out to you some of the problems you'd have. Suppose I were a commissioner, and my sole livelihood depended upon serving successfully in the commission post, as, say, one of the commissioners for Ogden City. There would be certain jobs that I would be able to dispense by patronage, if you will. Now, if enough pressure were put on me by the people who would be able to make sizable contributions to my campaign every two years, or every four years, depending upon what my term would be, I would certainly have to look very kindly upon their request. If these requests were made, and if they were out of line, then men of integrity would turn thumbs down. But there was too much pressure that could be placed on the individuals. So at that time, a group of interested citizens said, "All 13 right, let's see what we can do about changing this form of government." So in 1951 it was changed, placed before the voters, and because of the untiring efforts of this committee, the voters then adopted the charter to authorize us then to proceed with the council-manager type of government. Now, what it does is, here I told you some time ago in our interview, that I receive $33 a month. What kind of pressure do you think a person could place on me? If they said, "All right, if you don't do our bidding, we're not going to support you." So what if they don't support me, you see? And another reason, of course, about this, - in fact let me just digress here for a moment. The low salary paid, of course, I would say in the future this ought to be brought up to date. The pay should be more commensurate with the time that the individual spends. But this discourages, really, the political - the professional politicians - because there is nothing there to be gained; $25 a month. DS: I see your point on this. BW: Consequently, it works out beautifully because it only attracts the people who have a genuine interest in the community. DS: Okay. Mayor Wolthius, do you feel that there are going to be changes in the form of city government in Ogden? If so, how? What type of changes? BW: Well, I think there are going to be changes over a period of time, perhaps to upgrade the quality of government. But I don't believe that there will be any change as far as the charter we now have for the council-manager type of government. There will be some change, perhaps, in the charter itself. Let me just point out a couple of areas. I've already alluded to this idea of the mayor being selected by the voters. That's one change that we have initiated. Another change that is going to come before the voters this year is whether 14 or not a council member...representing a certain geographical area should be voted into office by all the citizens, or just by the citizens in that particular ward. As it stands now, everybody who votes will have a voice whether or not I represent ward number 2 or not. There are those individuals in the community who feel that in order to have better representation, a more democratic representation, each council member ought to be voted upon by the people only living in the ward. Well, let me just explain this to you. The theory is that you have individuals representing ward 1, and only those people were for that individual. He is going to feel a greater responsibility for the people living in ward 1 than he will in wards 2, 3, or 4. Now, is he going to represent all of the people? Or is going to represent just part of the people? DS: Just his particular ward. BW: Yes. Now, I don't think that Ogden City is so large that we need representation from, say, four segments of our community. Now of course you can argue it the other way, too, and I am very elastic about this. But let's take it from another point of view. There are those who say, "Well, how can a council member who is voted into office by everybody show any particular concern for my problem when he represents me in this particular ward, with, say 75,000 people he's responsible for?" The opinion is that if you have a man that is interested in the community, he is going to be interested in you whether you live in ward 3 or whether you live in ward 4 or 1 or 2. Now, the theory originally was, and it may still be valid, I am not sure, that a group of interested individuals, say, who might be self-seeking, could put in a candidate if only the people in their ward could vote for that particular candidate. In other words, kind of a ward boss, you understand? See, this is the old-time politics, and this had not come from us. Originally some of the ideas came from the other 15 cities that had a council-manager type of government for years. This is one of the things that we got from Phoenix. They say, "Well, we think it's going to work better this way." Now the people are going to have a chance to vote on this particular recommendation. We have had a number of individuals come to us and say, "Now, look, we want to have a representative from our ward." Well, I think, and I think you've got to speak candidly, and I want to point out, certainly, that I have a great deal of empathy for the minorities. I've worked very hard to try and overcome the feelings that might be generated because of minority/majority pressures. But some of the minority leaders say, "Well, how can we have adequate representation when, within our own ward boundary, we have maybe a third black, a third Spanish, and a third Caucasian, and each time an election comes around, the Caucasian is elected because everybody gets a chance to vote on this particular representative?" They may have a point. They may have a point. I still am inclined to feel that whether the man be black or white or brown or red or yellow, when he serves on the council, or if he serves in the legislature, or if he serves in the Congress, he represents everybody. Of course... there are those who say, "Well, what about this rule of one vote: one man, one vote?" Well, this is true in some respects. But there again, as I pointed out, our city isn't that large. So we can be flexible on it, but this is one of the problems. I am sure that the people are going to have to decide this coming election. DS: Okay. With all of the racial problems and labor problems that are taking place in the community at this time and in the past, what do you attribute Ogden's success to as far as not having much of ...these problems? BW: Well, Dale, I think we've got to be realistic. We do have some problems...and let me just enumerate some of them. First of all, the problem we have, probably the most important 16 problem, is housing. You can't expect an individual to have dignity, to feel like he has a station in life, when he has to live in squalor as far as his family is concerned. Now, I think the man himself, or the woman, may be willing to accept it. I think you or I would accept almost any kind of conditions ourselves. But when we see our loved ones having to live, say, on dirt floors, in houses that have leaky roofs, inadequate facilities as far as water where their health might be threatened because of the poor insulation, poor heating, now, these are all things we've got to recognize. The health facilities, I think, or the standard that we expect our health facilities to be at, would be a problem to consider. So this is one of the things. Number two, job opportunities. Now, we hear a lot of the recession that we have, and it's true we have gone through a recessional period. We find that the minorities, the ethnic groups, their ratio of unemployment is higher than the Caucasian. Now, there are reasons for it, and I would hope that it is not prejudice that has caused this imbalance. But I think part of the imbalance is due to preparation in educational opportunities. If a person has an education or a skill or a trade they can step into a job much easier than a person who is untrained or unskilled. If he's, say, a common laborer, then he has a tough time. DS: This is very true. BW: Now...I do believe that we've had some success here, and that is that we have been willing to listen and to try to solve some of the problems. Now, for quite some time, the people in west Ogden have been desirous of having some type of recreational opportunities there. As you know, we have the Marshall White Center, which was built some three years ago at the cost of $1.25 million - some federal funds, half of it, and half of the funds local. So, the people have shown a real interest in providing opportunities for 17 the disadvantaged regardless of what their origin might be. And we have built the Marshall White Center, and it's a real tribute to a great man who gave his life, to have such a fine center there. But it's quite removed from the people of west Ogden. So they've applied a little pressure, and I suppose rightfully so, to have some consideration given them. Originally we thought that the Marshall White Center would serve and solve the problems for the groups living in the western part of the city. But they feel it's too far. So we have worked with the school board and we're now providing the evening opportunities for not only the children but the adults living in west Ogden by renting the Hopkins School. And so those are things you've got to recognize. First of all, the dignity of an individual. And if you don't recognize the dignity, then you're lost. You have to appreciate the fact that we're all children of our Maker, the Lord and Savior. And whether we may be European or of African descent or whatever, we still have the likes and dislikes and fears and hopes and aspirations the same as anyone else. The color makes no difference. So I think this is probably one of the reasons that we've been somewhat successful, as to have empathy and be able to work with them. DS: Thank you very much, Mayor Wolthius, for allowing me to come into your office at this time and conduct this interview. BW: Well, Dale, I appreciate very much you coming here and having this chat about these things... Basically this gives you at least some philosophy, or some idea what our philosophy is. 18