Oral History Program Jay Hart Interviewed by Craig Gunderson & Professor MacKay 20 November 2008 i Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Jay Hart Interviewed by Craig Gunderson & Professor MacKay 20 November 2008 Copyright © 2012 by Weber State University, Stewart Library ii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in University Archives. The Stewart Library also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description The Weber State College/University Student Projects have been created by students working with several different professors on the Weber State campus. The topics are varied and based on the student's interest or task for a specific assignment. These oral history assignments were created to help Weber State students learn the value and importance of recording public history and to benefit the expansion of the Weber State oral history collections. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Hart, Jay, an oral history by Craig Gunderson & Professor MacKay, 20 November 2008, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Jay Hart. The interview was conducted on November 20, 2008, by Craig Gunderson with the help of Professor MacKay. Hart discusses his career and experiences in regards to teach at ST. Joseph’s High School. CG: Today is November 20. It's about 4 o'clock pm. I am Craig Gunderson and I am here with Jay heart. I'm here to ask him some questions regarding the history of St. Joseph's High School. What's your position at St. Joseph's? JH: I'm a teacher I teach the AP US history class, the AP English literature class, the government, and financial literacy class, the humanities, and the genders studies class. CG: Ok great. And have you taught at a previous, at another school? JH: I taught for 4 years at Bishop Kelly Catholic High School in Boise, Idaho. CG: OK. Was the other school you taught at religiously affiliated? JH: Yes it was a catholic school. CG: Alright, and can you just tell us where you're originally from? JH: I was born in Nebraska, but primarily raised in Wisconsin and Ohio. CG: Alright, so we'll get back to the school... how long have you been teaching here? JH: Twenty three and a half years. CG: Wow. Well just right off the bat are there any major differences that you've seen over the twenty three... what's your favorite or what's a particular difference that you've noticed in the twenty three years... just to start off. 1 JH: The biggest difference is when I first came there were 5 priests a brother and a nun on the staff. There are no longer and religious people whatsoever that's pretty clearly the biggest difference. CG: Are you aware of any of the reasons for that? JH: Primarily it is very, very difficult, there has been a crisis in the orders, and so the diocese in salt lake has been pulling people out of schools and putting them into parishes because there isn't even close to enough priests to serve the parishes. CG: Have there been any changes in affiliations since you've been here? JH: Not really it's a diocesan school that doesn't get a heck of a lot of financial support from the diocese although to be fair they've been very kind in loaning the school money when its needed so we don't get direct support we get direct support from the parishes but not from the diocese. At least as far as I'm aware which may be flawed information. CG: About how many years um would you say that the last father or priest or religious figure has worked here? JH: The last one was Father John Norman and I think he left the school... um he was principal here approximately 1995 and that's a pure guess I could find that out if you want... CG: A little of a decade JH: Yes a little bit over a decade CG: Alright. When you first started working here um do you see a difference in the like religious makeup of the school? Student wise. 2 JH: Not a significant change um there has always been non Catholics here when I first came this was essentially the private school north of salt lake so if you didn't want to send your kids to a public school they came here. In the last ten years we've had not only charter schools, but other religious based schools as competitors, so... I don't think there's been a huge change; the bigger changes are probably economic because tuition is so expensive here it's close to 7,000 dollars for someone who is not attending a non catholic tuition. If you're a member of a parish there's a subsidy for that. The joke here that is it's much cheaper to go down to the University of Utah after you've graduated from here than to attend here by a considerable amount. Or to Weber State or to any university. CG: So has the attendance gone down? Or has there been a fluctuation? JH: There has been, there's been a great fluctuation. Sorry. CG: It has lowered or…? JH: When I first came here we were about 235 students it has gone down to as low as 160 and currently were 190 maybe 195. So it has gone and forth back and forth. Probably a better question of those is if they are essentially full scholarship? Or how many are actually paying? CG: With the creation of the charter schools do you feel that is one of the bigger points that attendance has been going down? JH: Our biggest hits in terms of that came with the opening of Christian Heritage and Layton Christian. I think the charter schools have really only had an impact in the last four or 3 five years? They're going to because as a colleague of mine has said you simply cannot compete with free. So we have to extinguish ourselves in some other ways. CG: Since you mentioned Christian Heritage that was a question I was going to get to. What would you say separates St. Joes to Christian Heritage to someone that wouldn't know? JH: Yeah and I'm probably in that camp. Cause I've never visited Christian Heritage but from what I understand it is much more of an evangelical Christian. They try to weave biblical into every single lesson. While this is a catholic Christian school I don't think every single lesson needs to have some sort of bible lesson. CG: Are students still do students attend mass? JH: Yes in fact we had one this morning. CG: During school hours. JH: We also have a prayer service every single day in between first and second period everyone walks over to the gym where we have about a ten minute prayer service. So that's a daily devotional. CG: And who leads the prayer service now? JH: It's rotated among the theology teachers. CG: Alright. I have just a couple questions of what you may or may not know about funding. It seems like you said they get loans from the diocese. JH: They have. We've had some rather substantial loans in many cases were paid back and we had to get other loans. Most of the money comes from tuition. And then there's a substantial development office which is always working to bring in donations. The big 4 fundraiser of the year is something called Spree. We used to split that money with the grade school. But last year for the very first time they didn't want to be part of that, so all the money came to the high school. CG: Now is the grade school directory associated with Saint Josephs? JH: They are and we are trying much, much harder to try to link together but they do have the different governing board they do have a different principal. That wasn't always true, the current principal who's been here this is his second year previous to that for three years we had a principal who was principal over both schools. But that's the only time that happened. CG: Does the school receive any state, federal or municipal funding? JH: The only federal funding I am aware of is the library gets some funding, forgive me I don't remember the title which money that is. I think that's it. PM: Let's ask him about how he was recruited to the school? JH: I actually was at the University of Washington in Seattle when a good friend of mine who I had taught with at the other school in Boise. He had came here he was on his way coming. And I needed a job and he called me and said that there was an opening. And so I came down for the interview and took the job. PM: This is Mike Lubut? JH: Actually this is Mark Hoffman. PM: Oh Mark Hoffman. Mark Hoffman and I taught together at Bishop Kelly. 5 JH: Not that Mark Hoffman, no a different mark Hoffman although you can imagine how much fun it was for him the first couple years here. Several times I had to vouch for him at banks. PM: Mr. Hart you're not a Catholic. JH: I am not. PM: But you have taught 23 years at St. Joseph and previously at Bishop Kelly. So something about Catholic education must appeal to you. Or more particularly this place must appeal to you. JH: Couple of things. There's an enormous amount of academic freedom. Which is very good independent teachers, which I think I see myself as. Not so good for newer struggling teachers. I get to choose my own curriculum. I get to choose my own methodologies, my own assessments, my own tests. I teach some texts that are awfully challenging. That when I have taught at the university level would have been really challenging for my university students. And, more importantly, because I do get to bring up subjects that are just taboo within the public sphere. Especially when you're dealing with religion. PM: It seems counter intuitive. JH: Of course it does PM: Because you would suppose that there would be a much more rigid structure, a much more determined curriculum. And yet you're arguing that you have more freedom in this Catholic than you have in a public school. And more to the point or at least another 6 point is that you have an academically rigorous in which you are not necessarily able to present at the college level. JH: I had the same sub position when I came. I thought that it would be just exactly the opposite. I remember having conversations with Levy Petersen about that within the English Department. I wanted to teach certain texts. Best examples I thought of was The Stranger. They smiled and said, “Sure, but do you really want to go there?” When I taught Like Water for Chocolate for Weber State I had letters of complaint claiming that I was a pornographer. Now both men defended me, and that this was quite silly. When I brought in a unit I do on body images in the Gender Studies class. I had two students drop because they were being asked to look at underwear ads. And they said that this was the most pornographic obscene thing and that no public institution should ever inflict that upon a student. I was stunned by that. And I have many, many, many other stories like that. I've never had that as an experience here. For example right now we're doing Beloved in AP Literature I have so many friends in the public high school world who said oh you couldn't do that one. And as you well know I even have a very dear colleague at the University of Utah who has had complaints when he has assigned it. PM: I want you to speculate with me because I am trying to figure this out. Part of the speculation may be that this is a private school and as long as you have the insulation of that private where people pay rather than just go free than perhaps that's one way or that's yeah that's what I want to say. That's one way that allows you or that's one mechanism that allows you much greater freedom than in a public setting. Do you think that's true? 7 JH: I think it is true. I don't know quite how to say this next part. That I've been able, I've been lucky enough to develop a reputation at this school that I know what I'm doing and that I'm going to do it well. That I never ever, ever undermine Catholic teaching, that anytime we come to a controversy I always announce the church's view point on this. I have some colleagues who probably don't have this luxury. And they've had some difficulties. So I don't mean to suggest that it's school wide or classroom wide. But I think that does have something to do with it. That I can show parents that if you take this guy's classes you get into some good schools. And that there is a sort of consumption issue there. PM: Do you also think it matters that you're not Catholic. JH: I think it matters a great deal. On both sides. CG: Do you think it helps you that you're not Catholic? JH: Both ways. It has been a certain freedom there. There's been a sort of “Well, he doesn't know better” attitude. That was early on. That's no longer true. That has proven not to be true. Umm plus I think just in good will I think I've been able to show people that I am not going to undermine Catholic faith. I create lessons in which we really do some hard exploring of issues. But that is not the purpose. And that, one of the happiest compliments that I've had, and I've had it frequently. Students have said they learn more or as much about the sense of spirit and religion in your courses as I have in any other class. I think it matters also that I really have ended up being I teach the top academic kids. I teach two AP classes. And we have been very, very fortunate in those scores that those kids have had let alone the kinds of universities they have gotten into. 8 So umm I think that has mattered and that we have so many kids that have younger brothers and sisters that will follow along and that has continued to be true. CG: You said that your reputation has proved itself. So do you think that when you first came here did you see any hindering from not being Catholic? JH: I never ever have. It was made clear to me by the then principal and every principal since that as long as you do not directly attack church or church teachings, as long as you clearly announce this is what the church believes about that issue, you're just not going to have a problem. I am very willing to say that that has been my experience. PM: Will you tell us the story about the financial crisis, and the support that came from the parishes to make sure that there was a Catholic high school continuing in Ogden. JH: And I do want to say that this is a story Norm, our current principal knows far better than I so most of the tales. PM: Well let's get your version. JH: Oh absolutely. I just wanted to make sure. He had told me that the school was founded in 1954, and it was directly a Diocesan supported school as I understand it. Sometime in the early to mid 1960s because of some financial issues the church announced or the diocese announced that it wanted to close some schools including St. Joseph's High School. The community specifically the parishes said no, we will take over. And they did. And Norm feels very much that it helps to explain the blessing and the curse of our community that feels an incredible sort of ownership of the school. They just really see it as this is our school and they're going to depending on the point of view. And I think that really does come from the fact that we have kids who are the grandchildren of people 9 who came and graduated from this school and it matters that the alumni association is overwhelmingly supported by and run by people in their 40s, 50s, and 60s and Norm is really trying to get the kids in their 20s and 30s to join in as well. CG: Do you have a large alumni children coming here? JH: This is a painful subject because this year for the first time I am teaching the children of my former students. I've got three and three more are warming up in the bullpens. But yeah there are quite a few kids whose parents came here. I can only think of a couple right off hand who's grandparents came, but I am told there are quite a few more. CG: Now during this finance crisis of the 60s how many, how many parishes got involved, or how many are you dealing with up here. How many Catholic parishes? JH: I wish I knew better. I mean I can start clicking them off. There's St. James, there's Holy Family, there's St. Mary's, there's St. Joseph's, there's St. Rosalina but I don't know how much they're involved. That's the parish out there in the Ogden Valley. Can you think of any? CG: More than a few. JH: Yeah. CG: More than two or three. JH: Yeah. And they're unusual as you know from being back that the model is that the parish has a grade school generally right next to it. And then all of them sort of filter into or funnel into a high school. CG: I live next to, my church that I live next to 10 JH: There you go CG: My church has a k through 8. JH: And you'll see some of that in Salt Lake, but not very much and none of that in Ogden. At least that I'm aware of. PM: In thinking about the twenty three years that you've been here. Another thing I'd like you to talk about if you would is the commitment to higher academic standards. I am mindful that although this is not necessarily true but again and again and again judge Rollenhall St. Joseph's would be rated as the top high schools in Utah. Rated in terms of the number of students who got into high profile colleges, who did well on college entrance exams, etc. And I know that you yourself are part of that tradition of high academic standards of the school. But I wonder if you would comment about over the 23 year period have you felt supported by the administration? Has this been the way most of your colleagues have understood this place to be, that this is to be yes a Catholic school, but a Catholic school with a high academic standard. JH: One of if not the greatest tension at the school has been this struggle. Are we a Catholic school? Are we a private school? Do we serve the Catholic community and thereby we should be taking in any student that comes out of the grade school? Are we trying to get people into the best colleges, whatever? We have just gone back and forth on that. Right until very recently, maybe now, the last 5 years we are definitely an academic. We are very proud of the fact and publish the fact that there are currently more St. Joseph's graduates attending the United States Naval Academy than any other high school in the country. Not as a ratio, raw numbers. Now for a school of 190 kids that's justifiable. At the same time, we had a young man at West Point and one young man who had just left 11 the Naval Academy. So one point in a six year period we had about 7 people in the academies. And we've sent some awfully talented kids to some tremendous schools. But there is always that issue because we are a Catholic school first and foremost but what that means has been a bone of contention over the years. Good natured and sometimes not. Meaning just you know good people disagreeing on some things. As to whether there should be non Catholics teaching here whether there should be non Catholics attending here. I think the reality is, personally opinion, there is no way that model of catholic exclusivity would keep the school open. PM: Why do you think it has mattered that... religious no longer teach at the school? JH: It's been hard to bring in what I would call an old guard. Umm some of the people I know who are in their 40s 50s and 60s see that as a tremendous loss of Catholic identity. Umm some people try to point out that it's not just happening here at the school that's its happening all over. You choose an institution that there just aren't the numbers there. The biggest impact has been financially. in fact I was going to say that the other big issue that we should link with this is that as the number of religious declined and then disappeared and the student body essentially went in a very narrow range I believe that we have expanded the curriculum four or five fold so that if you are having more classes and those classes are being taught by lay who've actually want to get paid and religious didn't used to get an extra stipend that the costs for the school has just gone through the roof. I think actually and norm would know this better that, that salary and benefits personally costs are something like 90 92% of the running of the school. So that has been just a huge problem. That's why the school needs to find more students or it's just not, it's been stagnant. We got to either move forward or that's going to be 12 done. And there are some real fears about what that means for the school. Because you talk to the kids, even the kids who dislike the place, they will most always tell you how they like the fact that they know their teachers. They know everybody in their class. For good and frill. That that sense of coziness is very very attractive. Oh it's just attractive. CG: What's an average class size here for you? JH: For me? I'm not going to be the average here. CG: Because you teach advanced. JH: I teach these elective classes, but I think if you looked at the regular classes I'd say 25 to 30. CG: OK. Alright. Umm so it's not exactly a small class? JH: No but again you come join me in my AP literature its 8. Humanities is the largest elective class size I have... 17. I have 13 in gender studies last year in AP US history I had 10. I've had classes of 4 and 5. And it makes a huge difference when I look at my students and say OK were going to write 15 essays over the course of the year. You know what if I am only grading 5 essays I can get that done. My colleagues in the public school that have maybe 3 sections of 35 to 40 they are not going to be able to do that just physically. So my kids have a HUGE advantage. CG: Do you, do you have an application standard? Or are children accepted and rejected? JH: There are, there is an application process and they do take some very rudimentary tests. Rejections boy you'd have to talk to the administration. I would have to imagine that they are. And there are kids who are asked to leave. But... that's actually the big 13 issue for the school. Not finding new students, but retaining the students we have. Last year we did a yearlong study of the school and that was one of the absolute red flags, that we were finding kids to come here, we just couldn't keep them once they got here. For a whole lot of reasons. CG: Do you feel that academic toughness would be part of that reason? JH: That's part of it. But there are people who left because they didn't think it was tough enough. There are people who left because it was too Catholic. There were people who left because it wasn't Catholic wasn't enough. There are people here who left because the emphasis on sports is too great. There are people who left because... It's kind of difficult. And that's why that issue of Catholic identity because the polar extremes of people's opinions are just difficult to find a happy medium with that. CG: I just had a question about the teachers here from what you know. Are many of them practicing Catholics? JH: Yeah I would say about 50% of the teachers are practicing Catholics. And it has been an increasingly been a primary hiring that you start from that of whom are you a practicing Catholic? In some cases that just isn't possible. But if all things are equal then the Catholic will get the job. CG: So they are making. Well you feel they are making some efforts to retain... JH: Oh it's been a big change under Norm Allred's administration I know that he has hired some people that were equivalent in terms of background experience and he went with the Catholic, he will always do that. CG: And that goes with keeping the Catholic identity of the school. 14 JH: Absolutely. CG: The graduation rate here is high? JH: That depends are we counting from the time they come in as freshman, or are we talking about by the time they get... and in fact the irony I'm sorry if I known you would of asked I would of dug it up. And I can get it for you. Norm actually has done an entire study in the last 10 or 15 years that shows the numbers of entered verses those who graduated. And it's been kind of grim a couple years. CG: Yeah. JH: We have lost more than half of an incoming freshman class. CG: Wow. Does a high volume of your students attend college here? JH: Oh yeah. I would say somewhere around 90 95%. Now remember we had a graduation class last year I think it was 38. We'll have 50 this year. Now, so if 2 kids don't go to college that's 96 percent. CG: Now what does your typical, a typical freshman class look like? JH: When I first came here there were 70 students. The last few years I think 55 to 60 would be more typical. CG: Um. Now I just had a question with the relationship with the diocese and umm. Are they involved in the curriculum at all? JH: There is a diocesan curriculum absolutely. And the school is expected to abide by that. But a lot of the diocesan curriculum to be honest is the state curriculum. The big exception there is of course the theology. And that is one of the challenges of the 15 school, because it's required four years. Well you toss an extra into everybody's schedule for 4 year you have really restricted the choices. And it has caused some scheduling issues. We have expanded our schedule on our school day rather dramatically since I first came here. When I came here it was a 6 period day, we're now 8 periods. PM: In some ways that's like the seminary program the LDS church runs. Once the Supreme Court determined in the 1970s that the seminary had to be offered separately from the public school curriculum they also have had to juggle or should I say encourage students to add a class to their schedule. JH: Well and for us, at least to me, personal opinion, there's an irony in the fact that when I came theology was not 4 years. That's a more recent thing. And Norm was kind enough because he is such a devout practicing Catholic to find the newspaper article that I think this is dated like 1980 that talked about the fact that not only is it not every day and it's not every year but they brought in outside ministers Protestants and other people to teach these courses. That would never happen today. PM: With what you're suggesting Jay though, as with so many institutions it matters who is administrating. JH: Yes. PM: So currently Norm is this devout Catholic. JH: Very. PM: Very committed to education, but Catholic education. JH: Yes. 16 PM: Which means that his emphasis on theology is going to be quite different from previous or other administrations where they might not have had such a commitment to Catholic education, Catholic identity. JH: Right. The irony with that is that while he is going to be much more proactive in advancing Catholic doctrine and Catholic theory he's the one who wants to do it by teaching Paradise Lost. He's the one who wants us to teach Dante. He's the one who wants to have the other opinions. He has come to our history teachers and said I want you to teach the flaws and mistakes of the church don't you dare sugar coat or overlook, because if these kids don't know those things they're not prepared. PM: Well I think that is because he's not just a Catholic, he's an educator. JH: Absolutely and a very fine educator. PM: I am going to ask you another question while Craig thinks. I want to have your sense of these twenty three years of the relationship of the school to the parishes. We've talked about the support that they've given that they really think this school is their school and they support it financially they support it by sending their kids here. I'd like you to talk more about that. That because this is not just about money and support it's also interactions, it's about... JH: Right. PM: It's about priests advising students perhaps suggesting that the school does certain things certain ways... The challenge of course is like any other community, the Catholic is neither homogeneous nor unanimous in their opinions. But you have in the parishes' 17 priests and deacons and people who are committed to a Catholic presence in this area. So you have a perspective of these twenty plus years. Talk a little bit about that. JH: It's really changed. It will vary priest from priest. We've had some priests who are openly hostile. This is second hand information, but they were advising people to not send your child if you want a Catholic education. I think they've been the minority. And I think the relationship has gotten a lot better in the last two years or so. We have some very, very conservative priests in the area. We have some that I wouldn't identify as quite that conservative. And yet to my mind one of the most conservative priests is actually one of the biggest supporters for the school. He may not necessarily be supportive of all the programs at the school but he is very supportive of the school and allows for advertising within the parish. The priests at St. Joseph probably in the last 10 to 15 have been just superb in terms of their support. And that's mostly personality, but also because they do somehow feel a direct link whether it's just the name or just the heritage. They have been magnificent. The other thing I would say is that parish tends along with at least one other parish to serve the much greater proportion of the Hispanic community. And so they have worked tirelessly to get more and more and more of those which should be the core constituency for our school to be up. PM: Well I'm going to, you've segued. I'm going to ask. And I'll use the parallel of my own institution which is Weber State. We are the local university; we do not do a good job of recruiting students from the Hispanic community. We struggle with that. We know this. Talk about the... school, again in relationship to a growing Hispanic Catholic population. And do you think the school has, I'm going to make it more open ended than that. How 18 would you say the school has responded to the change in demographic? How this is no longer about Irish and Italian Catholics, and how this is about Hispanic Catholics. JH: That like everything else, I'm sorry if I sound like a broken record, has changed back and forth over the years. Right now Norm is really committed to that. When he was the assistant principal, he tried to convince people that we had an enrollment that had dropped. If you put an extra kid in a class, or two or three, as long as you don't create an extra section of the class, which would require hiring a teacher to teach that class it does not cost the school a penny. Why don't we go into that Catholic community, bring in a couple of the kids who quite frankly can't afford but they're going to be good hard working they'll pay whatever little they, we build up this wonderful reputation within that community. That got nowhere. Now he is already working hard at making this confronted with all kind of crises. Now this one did kind of fall to the back burner but this is only the middle of his second year. But he is committed to that. If you get a chance to talk with him he will bring out his map and they have actually mapped out where our students come from. And he is the first person I have ever heard raise the question: is the location the problem? PM: Bingo. JH: Because it's up on the East Bench. And it's a very difficult without better mass transit the buses don't come east of Harrison. And if we are really committed the original and I don't want to call it high school because I don't think it was the high school but the original school was much further west. PM: Sacred Heart. 19 JH: Yeah. PM: Well and I think that's part of the issue with Weber State also. Does it matter do you think Jay that you now have members of the faculty who are Spanish speaking? CG: That was going to bring me to that question. JH: The irony is that one is from Venezuela and one is from Chile. I'm not sure that's being the particular issue now. On the other hand Norm is a Spanish speaker, it may be rudimentary. But he has taught himself that because he felt it was something he needed to do. And we have two or three others who speak rudimentary Spanish. But I have seen, over the years, parent-teacher conferences where non-English speaking parents just kind of stand in the corner with no one there to help them. Well that is not going to work. Yet through all that we have had a very strong, I'd say 15 to 25 percent of the student population is Latino/Latina. Money tends to be the biggest issue. Not always. For instance there are some very, very wealthy people, but it's something that I'm proud about the school because at least the last few years because we at least are saying things about it. It's not on the back burner. It's out there in the open. And if we are committed to Catholic Christian social justice issues how then do we walk the walk? Umm you know as some people pointed out you got to keep the school open first before you can have the school that those folks can come to, that anyone can come to. So it's a real challenge. CG: Back to say about what you saying about how they might not have enough money to pay all of it. Are there scholarships that are able to be worked out here? 20 JH: Yes. In fact gosh I'm trying to think. I think at one point we had something like 40% of the kids on some level of scholarship. Now it may have only been a hundred dollars. Yeah and in fact some of the parishes and some of the priests and the nuns have very quietly funded 100% scholarships. We had two young men for instance who came to us from New Orleans after the disaster down there. And they were here for three years and they never paid a penny of tuition. CG: Within the school where does the scholarship... Does the school generate any of its own scholarship money? JH: Sure, that's what the development office is about. Now obviously a huge chunk of what they make will go into simple operations, but there is, along with, they're trying to create these funds that would become self sustaining getting an endowment up to a certain point. We haven't gotten there yet, but that is one of Norm's goals as well. To really put a lot of money into that so we can have two or three as this sort of bench mark. Most of it’s very, very quiet. Someone behind the scenes. CG: Not to beat a dead horse or whatever. You said that when he was vice-principal, Norm wanted to look into the Latino. Do you feel like he has been, in these two years, and that he in planning for the future to extend to those communities? JH: Oh completely. Totally. And he was kind of gently chastising himself in the faculty meeting when he brought out the map again. I just pointed out: “Look at the whole.” Because we had some from North Ogden and we have kids coming from Tremont. We've had kids come from Wyoming. But we have no one from Central and West Ogden. 21 CG: You mentioned about the boss saying that you were here on the East side. Do you guys run private buses? JH: We used to have a bus that came from Hill Air Force Base. That's been gone for 15 to 18 years. There is a bus now that comes to the school from the intermobile hub. Umm because there is a handful of kids, Norm's other huge vision is that we're going to be the Northern anchor school and that with the Front Runner the kids should be able to come all the way from North Salt Lake if they want. And then what we need to do is to be able to get them from that place up here so once a day a bus does and we've probably got 10 or 12 kids. So and Norm's image is also to set stops at the grade schools, and it stops at St. Paul's Lutheran School. It is a school that we've had a very close relationship because they stop at grade 8 and a very large number of those kids will come to St. Joseph. And his idea is that this will address part of the issue of bringing in people from Central and West. That if they knew they could drop their kid off at one of these places safely they could just hop on. This year it is going to run a deficit. But he is hoping that once the word is out and the kids go in the end this really, really works that more and more kids take part. And maybe we can even expand where the stops are. CG: I'm going to just change the topic a little bit. Being an outsider and not from Utah, and having previously worked at another Catholic school what would you say that some of the influences or differences or effects that the majority religion being Latter-Day Saints has on this school here? And you can take that any way you want and just run with it as little or as much. JH: Mostly it's perception. Please know we do have some LDS students and every year we've had some LDS students. There are two issues that the school is not very good 22 with. One is its relationship with the LDS church. Our students see themselves as under siege. And that I know when I first came here the school had an incredible reputation as a party school. And some of my kids in that day and age said that it was one of the first ways that they could announce that they weren't part of the dominant faith. Because if you came to St. Joe it was pretty clear that you were a drinker. Well the reality and the fallacy is... but yeah I've never been able to get passed that attitude that they're under siege, that they're a minority within the minority. And to be honest there are some things that really do... Alexis Salvo we have an academic bowl competition that we've set up here. We set it up because St. Joseph is not allowed into the Olympiad, the academic Olympiad. Which is held at Utah State University with public funds. They then invite schools from Idaho, but St. Joe can't get in. They’ve given him four or five different answers as to why they're not allowed in. PM: Wow. That seems very strange. JH: I know. It's one of the very few times that we run into a problem that way. But it was a reminder that there may be, but I can't tell you what the reason is but they have... PM: Is there anything that you think would be important for him to know about the school from your perspective as we're trying to study the history. We're going to ask you off tape for some names. JH: Sure. PM: For some additional oral histories. What kinds of things should he be looking for from your perspective? 23 JH: Yeah. You and I have talked about this a lot. I would ask some questions about why someone teaches at St. Joe. Find out the turnover rate which you'll find is astonishing. And you'll find out why some of us old warhorses have stayed. I have my own theories as to the composition who comes to teach at St. Joe and who stays at St. Joe. I think that is a unique thing about this place for good and ill. I think the other thing that you might want to ask is why do parents send their kids here. PM: That's a good question. JH: And you might want to ask Norm about our study, the self study we did last year because there is just some data there that might be of some value to there. Now I don't know how much he can share with you, but you might at least ask all he can say is no. you might want to ask also when I was talking about the expanded curriculum one of the things that Norm's predecessor was really big on was advanced placement classes. I believe I'm correct that we currently have 13 active and 2 in stasis. And when I came there was one. PM: That is a big commitment to academics. JH: And the other thing that it means is that those courses, those classes, have to be small, very tiny. Well that puts real financial on the school. But a lot of the principals have said it's one of the ways that you do get... And I actually have the data, and I don't know if I'm allowed to give that out about the passing scores. You might ask about ACT and SAT scores compared to the public schools and compared to the national average. I really do hope that you interview Norm because he will fill in so many blanks. And he'll speak so passionately about the place. Because he is a man who not only went to Catholic 24 schools himself, he went Judge Memorial. He came here as a teacher and grew into his role as an administrator. He left the school for four years and is back as the principal. PM: Thank you. CG: Thank you very much. JH: You’re very welcome. 25