Oral History Program Clyde Walker Interviewed by Kay Fackrell 22 September 1976 i Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Clyde Walker Interviewed by Kay Fackrell 22 September 1976 Copyright © 2014 by Weber State University, Stewart Library ii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. 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These oral history assignments were created to help Weber State students learn the value and importance of recording public history and to benefit the expansion of the Weber State oral history collections. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. 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It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Walker, Clyde, an oral history by Kay Fackrell, 22 September 1976, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Clyde Walker. The interview was conducted on September 22, 1976, by Kay Fackrell. Mr. Walker discusses his life and career in Wyoming, as well as the historical events he witnessed during his experiences. KF: I'm Kay Fackrell and tonight I'm in the home of Mr. Clyde Walker. I'm going to ask Mr. Walker some questions about his life. Mr. Walker lives in Lyman, Wyoming and we call this the Bridger Valley and he's lived here all his life. Mr. Walker where were you born? CW: I was born on a ranch about four miles southwest of here what we used to call Urie, Wyoming. In a log cabin. I think it still stands there, with a clay roof, and one window and one door is all we had. I was born in 1903, December the 9th. KF: How long had your folks lived here? CW: They homesteaded here in 1898 and the ranch is still there. KF: There are a lot of Walkers around here ranching, I know that. What did your dad do? Did he farm or ranch? I know they mixed it up a little bit. CW: He was ranching. We always had a little bunch of milk cows, ten or twelve head, that helped to make a living and he was on the freight road most of the time with teams. He had several good teams and we freighted lumber out of the hills and coal and wood and stuff like that. Hay to Cumberland. KF: Who contracted this? The U.P. railroad? 1 CW: No, most of the lumber we hauled was county plank. It went to make the bridges over the rivers and canals and things like that. And the hay we used to haul to Cumberland went to the U.P. railroad; the mines over there; and then we would haul coal back here for our school districts mostly. That's the way he made his living for a long while. KF: You got all of these out of the mountains right up here then? CW: Yes, all of the timber came out of the mountains south of here. KF: What time of the year did you do most of this? Year round? CW: Well, mostly year round until the snow got so deep in the mountains we would have to go up part way with the wagons and then we would take the sleighs on up to the saw mill and we had a camp up on the river. We stayed in tents which got pretty cold at times and we always had to heat a big old rock and put it in our bed to keep our feet warm, part of the night anyway. KF: Wouldn't last all night, huh? CW: It wouldn't last all night. KF: Your father, then, worked a lot for the community, then, by all of this contracting? CW: Yes. He worked out a lot at a small ranch. We had a big family and it wouldn't take care of us. But we made a pretty good living. We always had plenty to eat, and warm clothes, but that's about it. KF: What was your schooling like? CW: I started school up at a little place, it was out of Urie, right exactly the spot where Frank Thomas's house sits now, and I had to walk through the— we had more of a rabbit 2 trail— and I started when I was five years old. Later they moved the schoolhouse up to what they call Urie and I finished my grade school there and then I went down to Lyman for parts of years. I never did graduate from high school. I worked out in the fall and then I'd go to school in the mid of winter. Then I'd leave early in the spring to work again. So I didn't get much schooling. KF: Was this pretty common? People went to school in the dead of winter then worked the rest of the year? CW: Well, it was with some of them, yes. It was more or less, but I guess I was an exception. Some of them that I did start with, they did graduate. KF: How large was your family, Mr. Walker? CW: Well, eleven of us. Seven boys and four girls. KF: Seven boys, your dad had quite a bit of help then on his contracting? CW: Yes, but he kept us busy. He gave all of us boys, when we got married, a team of horses and a set of harness. We made our living for a little while, I did after that, with the freighting. KF: I know that Carter was a railroad stop here too quite a bit and what part did Carter play in your life? Did you have to travel to Carter back and forth quite a bit in your freightlines? CW: Yes. They shipped the coal a lot of times into Carter and we would get it there and spread it out over the Valley here. Most of the hay from this Valley went over to the mines at Cumberland. KF: Did they just use that hay for their stock? 3 CW: They used it at the mines for their horses. Everything was done with horses there. There were some fellows around here that made their living at nothing else but peddling meat and eggs and hay and stuff like that over there. KF: Let’s see. You started school when you were five and you were working your whole life. About when did you really get out on your own and see what you could do? CW: Well, when I got bigger, I kind of went as a laborer, you might say. Worked with the fellows around. Then I worked up in the hills on a government trail. I helped build that highline trail that goes from Kamas over to Lonetree. Then when I would go, as I got older, over to Lonetree and help the fellows over there hay. Work by the day. And then as I got older I got into the mine props. And I bought an old truck and had some fellows up there in the hills and I done pretty good. During the Depression I made a little money where a lot of guys just had to go on welfare you might say. And when the bigger companies took over, in 1938, I started buying cattle. And I made my living from then buying and selling livestock. I'd ship into Omaha and California and a lot of the trucks, I finally got three trucks and I'd truck into the Ogden market. Then I finally just settled down to one truck and I made a good living by just buying and selling cattle. KF: You've done just about a little of everything, then around here, haven't you? CW: Yes, that's just part of what I've done. KF: You mentioned during the Depression you actually made a relatively good living compared to a lot of people. How did the Depression really affect this Valley? CW: Well, it hurt. They had a WPA project in here. Two or three projects. But when the Depression hit, I was in the mine prop business and I would take props to Kemmerer. I 4 furnished a lot of props to the mine at Oakley. Anakonda copper there. Then I furnished all the props to the coal mine at Lazon and Star Mine. And finally they got in such bad shape they closed down. I had a terrible time. I had to take coal for a lot of the money. They furnished them with enough money to pay the men. And I was hiring men. I could get all I want. I had seventeen up there I remember at one time for a dollar a day and their board. I could have got twice or three times that many if I wanted to. But I finally.... The mines got in such a bad shape they all closed down and I had to go into something else, so that's when I started buying cattle. KF: I suppose the cattle market was pretty easy to get into right about this time, wasn't it? CW: Well, nobody had any money. You could buy cattle. I remember the first bunch I bought was my dad's. And I couldn't pay him when I bought them and he said, “Well, take them to market,” and pay him when I got back. Which I did. I think I made fifteen dollars on his bunch of steers and that was— KF: Not bad money really was it? CW: A lot of money at the time. KF: How were other people in the Valley making it at this time? How were your neighbors getting along? CW: Well, they just got what they could get. The government furnished some work, like we graveled roads. I put my truck on the job, then I let the city here in Lyman hire the truck and they hired me to drive it. That's the only way they could work it some way, I don't know just how it was. That was one project, graveling the city streets here. Then they had several projects up in the hills for the boys that did work, building roads mostly, was 5 their project. Some building, very little. After I was married, we moved to town here. I served ten years on the town council and three terms as Mayor here. So I had some good experience during the Depression. KF: You mentioned that about everybody had to find some kind of work at the time. You really couldn't make a living just on your own ranch? Was it pretty tough to do that? CW: I had a little bunch of cattle that the government was buying our cattle and sheep that the poor fellows couldn't feed. We had a drought at the same time. I remember I sold 400 pound calves for four dollars apiece. And they took them out here, north of here and killed them all. KF: They just paid you out of surplus money then? CW: That's right. I think— I don't remember, I didn't have any sheep at the time— but they killed herds of sheep out here that people couldn't feed. They weren't worth anything. KF: I talked to one other gentleman here, and he tried to make his living farming around here for quite a few years. Did you ever try to farm your place to see what you could get? CW: Well, I didn't own a farm then. My dad had a little farm, but it was so rocky and went to fox tail that if we raised enough hay to feed what few cattle we had we were pretty lucky. KF: Well, I was surprised to hear that this other gentleman tried it. I didn't know if you could farm around here or not either. You mentioned that you got into sheep a little bit, you know, mixed in your cattle. Why don't you talk a little bit about the sheep and cattle controversy when it first got started around here? 6 CW: You mean me? KF: Ya. CW: Well, I went out to herding sheep in my spare time when I couldn't get into the hills for props and stuff. I would go out and work for the Smith Sheep Company over here towards Evanston. And I remember I had my family started and I had four, two girls and two boys, and that's all we had raised and I worked for forty dollars a month and my board and furnished a saddle horse. Which was quite a thing in them days. And then as time went on I bought sheep and sold them. I remember once I bought a thousand and fifty-two head and had them trail them in here to Fort Bridger to some small corrals out there. And I advertised them that people come and get them, one or a hundred, whatever they wanted. And I sold that thousand and fifty-two head all the first morning out there. People from all over the Valley. Trucks, they never had them to speak of then and they'd cut off ten head or they'd cut off fifty head, or whatever they wanted and you would just see them taken out just like on a trail. KF: Everyone was getting into the market then, huh? CW: They sure did, and they did all right, too. KF: Well, I've always thought this country was more of sheep country than cattle country and did it ever make a big switch like that or has it kind of always stayed... CW: There wasn't any sheep on these ranches, only just a few head. Each one had a few maybe just for their own use. For mutton and stuff like that, until I think I was the first one that got that bunch started and on all these little farms and they've had them ever since. Then I bought a lot of sheep, these old ewes from these herds and I know I got 7 four hundred head from this fellow over here and trailed them over. Beautiful. I picked them and brought them in here and sold them darn things before I hardly got them home. It just took somebody to get them started, you know. And I guess I've had since I got into the ranching business I've had sheep ever since. KF: Did the market get big enough around here to actually for the wool, to ship the wool out. Did you have to load it and go to Carter or did people basically get into it for their own use? CW: Well, I think they pretty much got a start there and everybody after later years, of course, they formed these pools and they shipped their wool. They would advertise for bids, you know and sell it that way, to the highest bidder and the same with the lambs. And they still do, as far as that goes. They share this wool. In fact they have two pools here in the Valley now, Wool pools. At one time, they had, I think if I remember right, they had about twenty seven thousand fleeces they shipped out of here. Just farm fleeces. That wouldn't be the herds at all. But it's down no till, I think last year, if I remember right, it was I think they only shipped in this one pool between seven and nine thousand fleeces. It had dropped that much. That's coming up pretty fast from my background way back. KF: Yes I understand that. Well, when you first brought the sheep here, you mentioned that you didn't have much trouble getting rid of them or anything, but was there much controversy about the fact that you were bringing sheep into cattle country? CW: Well, not right here in the Valley. The controversy was years ago when I was a kid. The cattlemen didn't like these sheep here so much. It was mostly cattle country. They had what they'd call a deadline. It was out East of here and they had a plow furrow. If the 8 sheep got on the other side of the line, why they had trouble. And they had plenty of it too. KF: Mr. Walker, you talked a little bit about how you made your living and everything and you mentioned one time that you got married and had a start on a family, but could you tell me when you got married? CW: Yes. We were married December the 4th, not December, September the 4th, 1924. And we had two daughters and two sons we've raised. The two daughters live in Salt Lake now and the two boys are up on the ranch. And we were married in the Salt Lake Temple. And my wife, the first year we was married taught school over on Poison Creek over to Lonetree. And we had quite a time, I was trying to trap and about all I'd trap, I was trying to trap coyotes, and about all I'd catch was rabbits and sage chickens. But we stayed all one winter. She had five students, all from one family, and we had quite a time. Coates was the last name, but I don't remember the name of the children. But they were sure swell kids. We had parties with other people over there to pass the time away. And some of them come over to Coates's place on Farson Creek from Cottonwood Creek and over there they would drive; it must have been ten miles over that hill; then we would party all night long and play cards and just a regular party that everybody would do. Then after school was out, why we picked up jobs here and there. But when we first got married though, I went over to Rock Springs to work. I worked for the Superior Lumber Company for a while and then I worked for the Kellogg Lumber Company. And I remember I was making five dollars a day and we were there for a couple of months until she took over this school there. Her brother had it over there and he gave it up, he wouldn't stay. He was single. I think we had thirty five cents by the 9 time we paid our train fare to Carter. I wasn't making five dollars a day, but we lived it up. Then I caught a ride home, I remember my dad was over there and her and I unloaded coal. That's the way we got started. Then as time went on why we worked here and there and I did quite a lot of freighting as I said before and then got into the cattle business and then I got into the ranching business after that. That's where I am now. KF: What affect did World War I have on your life? CW: I wasn't old enough to only just register. I remember very plainly I registered when I was on my way to California down in Filmore, Utah. That's as far as I got though. Just to register. The War was over before they called me for the draft. KF: Did the War have much effect on the people living here in the Valley? You know, I know the patriotism must have been real high at the time? CW: It was. Everybody was... Well they didn't have any trouble getting volunteers. There was a lot of boys went from here. We lost quite a few lives here from in the Valley. But they showed their patriotism and went right along whenever they was called. Some of them didn't have to be called. They enlisted before the draft caught up with them. KF: We have another time in history we call prohibition and I know this is an LDS Valley, but did prohibition mean anything here when the government first pushed it through? CW: Well, we all had our good times, I guess. There was a little bootlegging going on, I know that. And Redeye and all of that stuff, but this town where we live in; Lyman, Wyoming, when the man first laid it out to town sites, he homesteaded it first. Then he laid it out to town sites and he put it right in the deeds that any liquor was sold, if they could prove 10 that liquor was sold in the town limits the property would revert back to him or his heirs. And we never had beer nor any kind of liquor in town for many years in here until he moved away. Why, they started to open a little beer parlor around. They claimed this 3% beer wasn't intoxicating. I happened to be Mayor at the time when we sent a sample down. They had a little beer they called Holiday Brew and we sent a sample down to get it tested and it tested 7% alcohol. KF: Was that local made brew? CW: No. It was made by, I'm not sure but I think it was Becker Brewing Company. And anyhow they got a beer parlor started in here and then when he left, years later I went down to see him. We had a chance, they wanted more beer parlors. They had one and then wanted two more. They could get a license for according to the population. And I went down and talked to him, this old fellow. Bishop Brough was his name. He was real old. He was about ninety years old then. I asked him if what about this deeds and it's right in your deeds right today that if it can be proven it would revert back to him or his heir and he said I'm just as strong against that today as I was when I put it in them deeds. But times have changed and they took the town to task here, the courts did, and they told us to authorize these beer licenses and they took us to task on the liquor licenses and it just busted right open so we have plenty of liquor here today. KF: Well, Lyman was pretty calm, so Fort Bridger must have been the wild spot of the Valley, Is that right? CW: Well, one reason they wanted to get the liquor back in here; the fellows, the ones that drank the liquor, was because we'd have a dance and usually send somebody down to Fort Bridger to get a barrel of Beer or several bottles of liquor and bring it back up here 11 to drink. So they got to thinking they'd just as well have it here as to get somebody killed on the road, I remember one night two fellows went down to Bridger and they got drunk while they was down there and the one fellow fell off of his horse and before they got to Urie the horse drug him in the snow for a good half a mile. He just drug him with one leg caught in the stirrup. He tells the story and I know him personally very well, but that was what they was after. They had the liquor to bring back to Lyman to the dance. KF: They'd stopped too long in Bridger before...? CW: Yes. So and then they had prohibition and that was before they got the liquor in here though, but if people want liquor they’ll get it. KF: Later on we come around, you know the 1940's, we get around to World War II. And I know again people were very patriotic and stuff. How did World War II affect an agricultural community like Lyman? CW: Well, it took a lot of our boys. Of course it was mostly them that was the draft. There was a lot of them that volunteered. Most of them was farm boys. Some of them got farm exemptions and got out of it but most of them as a whole I don't think they had any trouble getting plenty of volunteers and drafts. Pretty loyal. KF: You know, since you couldn't farm here really very well you couldn't really raise your own meals, so to speak, so there had to be some way you bought them or went to a store or some place. How did you trade for your goods? CW: When I was just big enough to drive a team, my father took me to Ogden. We took two teams down and he would load these wagons with fruit and vegetables. We had all kinds of fruit and bring them back. It would take us a week’s trip. And he done that. He 12 and my brothers. He'd take one each trip. He'd done that for years. We always had all the fruit and vegetables. Of course we had a small garden what we could raise here but those two wagon loads of fruit done us for a full year. And other people, after as years went on, there used to be fruit peddlers come in here and they would peddle all over the country. Especially the stuff we couldn't raise. But it was tough at times. KF: What stores were there around? Were there any stores you could go buy anything? CW: There was a store at Urie. The Guild Brothers. There weren't no stores here at first. We had to go to Piedmont to do our trading. George Guild and Jimmy Guild, if I remember right, were brothers and had a store over there and they had two other brothers who came over here in later years and started a store. One of them was at Urie, Willy Guild. And the other was; no there were three brothers. There was Joe and Johnny had the store here at Lyman for many, many years. And the old store at Urie is still standing up there and being used. The one here is vacant right now and I imagine even being torn down. The Guild brothers had these three stores as long as I can remember. KF: They pretty much had a monopoly on all the trade in the Valley then, didn't they? CW: Then there was a store in Mt. View too. The first one that I remember had was Bill Summers and he had it for years. Then there was a store in later years at... W.A. Carter had it going. And it's still standing down there now. I think John Dahlquist is the one that had it. KF: I've heard of this Carter. He must have been pretty influential man in this community? CW: Yes, I knew him as a boy and he was quite a man. He was an old timer here. I guess, as near as I can recollect, from stories, he was here right about the time after Jim 13 Bridger was here. And this store down there, he had more of a trading post. It wasn't, if I remember right, he didn't carry a lot of stuff like if you had to go to Piedmont that was our closest railroad point. I guess. I don't know if it was the closest railroad point but there was a store there that you could trade with that there wasn't at Carter. In later years there was a store at Carter. As time went on and people had more homesteading here, the country got thicker populated, these stores sprang up in Lyman and Mr. View and Urie. But I guess really maybe the store at Fort Bridger might have been the oldest store but that was a little bit before my time. KF: How was the hunting around here? I know people didn't hunt for their enjoyment as much as necessity. Could a guy pretty well keep himself in meat by going in the mountains once in a while? CW: There wasn't near the wild game here then. There were some antelope and I don't think there was any elk whatsoever. They planted them in here. It hasn't been too many years that they have had elk up here. The deer wasn't any too plentiful. There was some. But jack rabbits were plenty. My dad used to say he'd give us kids a big club and put you on a jackrabbit trail and at the end of that trail is your breakfast. But we did eat lots of rabbits. KF: And I guess you mentioned before there's lots of sage chickens around. CW: Yes, there's lots of sage chickens and rabbits. KF: Coming up a little more to today, you know, this Valley' gone through what they call an impact now with population growth and everything. How do you look upon that, Mr. Walker? Has that been good for the Valley, or bad for the Valley? 14 CW: Well, it's progress and you can't stop progress. I don't like it. I'd rather go back to the little old quiet town and live like we did, but I know it's impossible. This is not the only place that's growing. And I guess probably it's a good thing for the Valley as a whole. I know fellows that just could hardly just make a living on these ranches that's gone down to these mines and are doing real well. The little old farm just couldn't hardly make a living on and cases like that, I believe it is a good thing, but it's, well, I hate to say it, but I guess it's progress. KF: OK. You know you talked about a store down in Mt. View and I read a history on the Valley here and it seemed like the Valley settled, Lyman settled with LDS people and Mt. View settled with, what was it, Presbyterians and Catholics, is that the...? CW: To a certain extent, yes. KF: Was that just the way the people broke down when they settled here or was there some other reason for that? CW: Well, it seemed like the LDS people more or less stayed together as a, you can call it a clan or whatever you want to. But they helped one another, you know. Stuck together, and the other people were, well some of them didn't belong to any faiths and there were some scattered Mormons over there that used to come over here all the time to church. But that's just the way it seemed like it turned out. The Presbyterians people were, they're good people. I have a lot of friends of other faiths. But they had quite a... I know they had to struggle to make a go of it. So few you know. And it seemed like it centered at Mt. View as the Presbyterians and the Catholic people. There were a lot of those in later years that come from these mines that were Italians and people like that. Which 15 most of them are Catholics anyway and they always have been and they settled in Ft. Bridger, so that just about the way it is. KF: That's the way the community breaks down, isn't it? You know they have a place here that's kind of got a nickname of Walker Lane and I know you mentioned you bought a place here. How did you go about getting a hold of different places? How did people go about getting hold of different farms and ranches and expand? And how many people were there really coming into the Valley in early years? Right about when you were ten years old. How was the Valley growing? CW: Well, there's a lot of homesteading going on then. Just a lot of them. And some fellows that come into here and homesteaded and proved up and then they'd sell their rights to somebody that would come in and wanted to farm. There'd be bachelors, most of them. You know you take pretty near all of this country up through here, the water filings out on that water rights for many, many years. If you don't know who filed on the water you don't know who to give the water to. There were a lot of strange names. I remember I didn't never know them myself. They'd just come in and live on it long enough to prove up on it then they'd sell to somebody and let them farm it. KF: They were in it for more or less the profit then? CW: Yes. And then as time went on, if people were dissatisfied and couldn't hardly make a go of it, their neighbor would buy them out. They'd keep each family until they got bigger ranches. Then lots of times too, when the ranch got so big the family, maybe the older person, the father would move off or maybe pass away. Then they would split the place then start all over again. With two or three. 16 KF: There were quite a few homesteaders coming in, then? CW: Oh, ya, there were lots of homesteaders come in. There was this tribe come from Minersville. The Rollins's, the Blackner’s and Hollingstead’s and Hamblin’s. Eyres come later, and Bradshaw’s and Ellsworth’s. They were all relations down at Minersville. Their farms were getting small down there so they just formed their company, you might say, and all come out here. And they bought most of all of these places, I don't think there was any that homesteaded. They bought them all. Different farms around. In later years, well they come here I guess the year before my folks come. They come from Huntsville and Eden. And his brother-in-law came with him as a partner. They came out the same way. They brought a few chickens and a milk cow. They had a team and what little provisions they could get. I know my dad said he landed here with about four cents in his pocket. That's all he had. Then there were others come out later and that's the way they built the Valley up here, that is around Lyman. KF: Did your dad come out here as a bachelor? CW: Yes. He was out here before he was married and helped build this Blacksfork Canal. Then he went back and got married and I think he homesteaded when he came out the first time. Then he went back and got married and came out and they've been here ever since. KF: You mentioned the farms just getting too small for them around Huntsville and these other areas in Utah. Did they anticipate a hard time here, coming here to ranch and farm? 17 CW: They heard about a Manila, Utah. They called it Lucerne Valley then, and that's where they went over there. And when they got there they were disappointed, the water wasn't adequate for a whole bunch of them like that. So they came back and they wandered all over the Valley here. I know I heard the story a lot of times, my wife, her folks being one of them. They stayed down here to Well Stevens's place and they had about five or six kids in one room and stayed there that winter. The men scattered out and they bought these places around. They went to the timber and got them out a log cabin and built it the next summer. But that was several families. I think one of them stayed down here, if I remember right, on the old Alfred Hickey place. But the people were good to take them in and shelter them that winter. And so they got by as pioneer people do okay. KF: On a typical ranch, how close were your neighbors? CW: Well, the most they could homestead was 160 acres and although they were sometimes anywhere, I guess about the closest would be a half a mile anyway, and some of them two or three miles apart. KF: Not really too bad then. They traveled back and forth pretty good. CW: Well, this Valley was the first one homesteaded in here. I talked with this Wilt Bluemel. Him and Henry Bluemel was about the first two that I ever knew of that homesteaded on the bench here. They came over from Randolph, Utah and stayed with a fellow down under the hill here to a spring. He had a tent, by the name of Joe Carter, and he had a homestead right here where Clem Eyre has it now. They stayed with him this night. Now this Wilt Bluemel told me this himself. The next morning they rode upon there and picked them out what they call a "pretty getting" piece of ground and they homesteaded right together right east of Lyman down there. What we call the Bluemel places now. 18 And then they rode to Evanston and filed on their claim, then back to Randolph the next day. I think that's about the first two that I know of. KF: Wasn't a lot of paper work involved in homesteading then was there? CW: Oh, no. KF: Just build a house and that's it. CW: They just had their pick of the whole bench up here. There were homesteads along Smith's Fork. The old-timers there and Black's Fork, you know, there were a few of them that were stripped. Depended on what you wanted; a long strip and a narrow or anywhere you wanted. Most of them took the creeks. KF: Do you recall any stories about problems with homesteaders? Does anybody ever homestead the same piece of ground? CW: Well, I think they had problems all right enough, but I don't know too much about them. Claim jumping in other words, you know. But I don't think there was too much of it right here. The people here, I don't know, when they first came in here they were all about the same. They were just old-timers and homesteaders and pioneers trying to make a living and raise a family. KF: What was the law enforcement like in our early days here? CW: Well, we didn't have much. After they got established here, I remember that after the town site was started they had a constable and that was about all they had for many, many years. I have to tell one on myself here I guess. They had a dance over here, they had a little community hall. They used to have a church house, went to church down there in a little log cabin down on Henry Bluemel’s place for quite a while then they built 19 this amusement hall they called it and we had a party there. I don't remember just what; it was a church affair, but anyway we had a dance and there was quite a lot of young people. It was Halloween time and I had my gal friend and I had a horse and buggy and I had it tied across the road. And when I came out of the dance hall somebody was taking the burs off of the wheels. You know that was quite a common trick to take the burs off the wheels and then when we'd start off the wheels would fall off. And I thought I was a little toughie about then and I had a six shooter and I come out on the porch over there and it was a moonlight night. I shot a couple of times in the air, you know, and boy I thought I was big. About the last shot, the constable had me by the seat of the pants and the back of the neck. He asked me what I was trying to do and he wanted the gun and I wouldn't give it to him. We kind of tussled a bit and so he said “Well you come down and see me the next morning," and which I did. So he was pretty good and he said you get rid of that gun and I'll let it go and I did. I never had a gun since, I don't think, since the six shooter. KF: Did quite a few people pack guns? CW: Yes, there was a few that carried guns, you bet. Of course these stories, I was a kid and all this kind of stuck with me, I wasn't there when it happened but they had a dance down at the old church house where they first built it, that little log cabin. There was a bunch of toughies there drinking and after the dance they usually always had to show off, get on horseback and shoot off and some of them had been fighting and there was one fellow, I don't know whether to mention names, but it's common talk, Sam Rider tried his brother. His brother was in trouble and anyway he jerked out his gun to try to stop him and shot him and killed him up on a horse. He shot up in the air, you know, to 20 stop him and instead of that, he didn't stop and killed him right there. That was quite common in them early days. They carried the guns. Not so much in later years. KF: This constable, was he hired full time or is this just something he did? CW: Well, I think he's probably paid about five dollars a month. KF: Big wages, huh? CW: He had another job. He was the blacksmith down here for years. But he educated me in one easy lesson. KF: Well, I think we’ll stop for the evening here and maybe if I have some more questions, Mr. Walker, I'll come back to you. CW: Well, there's a lot more, but I can't just think of it all times, you know. By you asking these questions kind of revived my mind. 21 THE SETTLING OF SOUTHWEST WYOMING Although the existence of the Bridger Valley had been known since the early 1840's, the settlement of this area had been by-passed for the more attractive Wasatch Mountain Valleys. I'm sure the troubled history of Fort Supply had something to do with the hesitation to settle in the Bridger Valley area in Southwestern Wyoming. The first group of people to attempt to change the environmental scheme of the land came from the overcrowded farming and ranching areas of the Salt Lake Valley. Keep in mind that fur trappers, coal miners and Union-Pacific Tie loggers had roamed this area for a few decades previously. The bulk of these early homesteaders traveled through the area, over the Uinta Mountains and back Into Utah around the Manila area. Possibly the thought of staying in the predominately Mormon state of Utah being the reason. Many of these people, finding life too isolated and harsh, returned to the Bridger Valley and took up homes. Two families entered all conversations of the Bridger Valley when talking of this time era, around 1900. These two families, who presently are kin to almost all of the Valley, are the Rollins’s and the Blackner’s. Their homesteads, although largely expanded still are in existence. On certain claimed lands the old homes are still standing with each generation’s additions lining the lanes to the original homes. Most people who entered the Valley after 1900 did not actually homestead the area, but purchased and made good the homestead rights of eager to sell pioneers. Why someone would sell three or four years of their life so cheaply I do not know. However, some lands bought by this new breed had already been cleared and some kind of structure built on it. I believe the harsh life simply wore the earliest homesteaders down and provoked them into their move back to the Salt Lake area. It 22 most certainly had little to do with monetary greed because these lands were turned over to the new settlers at very low prices. Probably the cost of materials used to build the structures, the equipment and livestock left, and the cost of the Union Pacific ticket to Salt Lake were the bulk of the cost settlement on the acreage up for grabs. For the most part, people settling this area tried to both farm and ranch, neither being sufficient to support the times large families. The men looked for extra work often leaving the farming, milking and feeding to the children. Jobs in there are apparently were fairly plentiful, however it was an accepted practice for the men to be away from home several months of the year obtaining these jobs. Many men worked in the mines located at Cumberland near Kemmerer. Others worked in the Union Pacific railroad coal yards or in the mountains, tie logging. Much of the early hay farming existed because of its use by the Union Pacific and the Southwestern Wyoming mines. Most of the early social life centered around the church. Education for the youth was available to about the eighth grade. Classes were held in one room schools with a single teacher to accommodate several families. Dances were held regularly and each community had a hard wood floor dance or recreation hall, riven though Lyman is a predominately L.D.S. community, Mt. View Fort Bridger, Carter and Cumberland were not. These were apparently a mixture of all peoples at social events and outside of a lot of friendly fights a good time was generally had by all. Life in this Valley was pleasant and prosperous during the early 19l0's and I920's. I found it very interesting to visit with the old timers in our Valley. For the most part I was welcome in their homes and invited back on any occasion. I did reach some citizens in Lyman who felt they simply would not have enough interesting information to 23 make my time worthwhile. I argued differently, but most often the individuals with this attitude did not change their minds. The five individuals I interviewed were most cooperative and I enjoyed their company very much. In each case, however, I feel the preliminary interview hindered the actual interview. I found most of these people just aching to talk to someone about their history, much of which would come out in the preliminary interview and these stories were often withheld or not mentioned during the taped interview. A common practice by the individuals interviewed was to have me shut the recorder off while they related an incident to me. I hesitate to even mention these stories because I feel they were told to me in confidence. I will say the stories often related to politics, individuals who were, at times, on the wrong side of the law, or simply names of people, usually well known, who my co-workers felt should be given the courtesy of secrecy. Often the stories were well known with even the names being the same. But all the people shared a common loyalty towards secrecy. I only ran into two individuals whose tapes are rather hard to follow. These two people were quite hard of hearing and lost their thought patterns easily. The tapes contain valuable information and details, but sometimes individual feelings and emotions limit the amount of factual information. The more I worked on these tapes, I began to recognize the value of them. For the most part, these tapes represent people’s lives. Their laughter and solemnness over a certain happening is something that should be cherished by their families and loved ones. I do feel the less structured the conversations, the better the tape. A dinner conversation would be, perhaps the best place to gather information. 24 Another improvement would be an attempt to tape a man and wife together on their life. Several times my co-worker and myself were corrected or a certain happening could be added to, or more vividly recalled by the gentleman*s spouse. I did not feel interrupted, but more so that I had left out someone important. Since we were in the interviewer’s home, I could not shut the wives out of the conversation. I did watch the wives’ reaction to the many related tales. The wife would sit and smile, laugh, recall fond memories and finally, remark out loud about something. I felt as if I had opened old closets. I'm sure the conversations existed in the houses for days after the interview. These people have lived most of their lives together and it was a very pleasing emotional experience to share with them. I believe this is a worthwhile project for anyone who is interested in people. These people have so much to share, and as was often related to me, no-one wants to know about their past. There is much to be learned about family life, work, play and the sufferings of these pioneers. 25 BIBLIOGRAPHY Bits and Pieces; Fred Hesse Cowboy, April, 1965; Volume I, No. 1; Newcastle, Wyoming; pgs. 11, 12, 13. Bits and Pieces; Russian Cavalryman, Cambria Miner, Prairie Rancher- Story of Andy Wocicki; Nov., Dec., 1972; Volume 8, No. 6; Newcastle, Wyoming; pgs. 1-4. Bridger Valley's Bicentennial Celebrations, 1776-1976; Copyright @ Virginia R. Giorgia; 1976; Green River, Wyoming; pgs. 1-24. Cowboy Life Reconstructing on American Myth; Edited by - William W. Savage Jr.; Columbia, Missouri; 1973, 1975; pgs. 3-208. History of Wyoming; by - T.A. Larson; University of Nebraska Press; 1965; pgs. 1-579. The Cowboys; Time Life Books; William H. Forbis; New York; 1973; pgs. 6 - 220. The Growing of America - 200 years of U.S. Agriculture; John Rupnow, Carol Ward Knox; Published by Johnson Hill Press Inc.; Ft. Atkinson, Wisconsin; pgs. 4-141. Wyoming; From Glorious Past to the Present; Allen Carpenter; Children’s Press, Inc.; 1966; pgs. 9-87. Wyoming Writer's Project; Sponsored by Dr. Lester C. Hunt; Oxford University Press; New York; 1941; pgs. 262 - 265, 140 - 145, 265 - 266. 26