Oral History Program Brien K. Jones Interviewed by M. Troy Hudson 2 February 2018 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Brien K. Jones Interviewed by M. Troy Hudson 2 February 2018 Copyright © 2023 by Weber State University, Stewart Library Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description The Weber State College/University Student Projects have been created by students working with several different professors on the Weber State campus. The topics are varied and based on the student's interest or task for a specific assignment. These oral history assignments were created to help Weber State students learn the value and importance of recording public history and to benefit the expansion of the Weber State oral history collections. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Jones, Brien K., an oral history by M. Troy Hudson, 2 February 2018, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, Special Collections and University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Brien Jones Circa 2015 Brien Jones 2 February 2018 Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Brien K. Jones, conducted on February 2, 2018, in his office at NACVA Headquarters in Murray Utah, by M. Troy Hudson. Brien discusses his life and experiences as a minority leader in Northern Utah. Chanda Chuon, the recordist, is also present during this interview. MTH: The National Association of Certified Valuators and Analysts, or NACVA, supports the users of business in intangible asset valuation services and financial litigation services, including damages, determinations of all kinds, and fraud detection and prevention, by training and certifying financial professionals in these disciplines. Brien Jones has been with NACVA® and the CTI™ since 1997. He is a seasoned association executive with extensive professional experience in continuing professional education management, online/distance learning, business development, strategic planning, member recruitment and retention, and association governance. In his position, Brien balances internal management with external leadership, leading to healthy business development and greater visibility to support the growth and goals of the organizations. He is a member of the American Society of Association Executives and the Industry Advisory Council for Associated Luxury Hotels International. Brien is a past recipient of Utah Business Magazine’s Forty Under 40 Rising Stars. He has also received the Ambassador Award from the Salt Lake Convention and Visitors Bureau, and holds a Diplôme from the International Olympic Committee for volunteerism during the 19th Olympic Winter Games held in Salt Lake City, Utah. He holds a bachelor’s degree in behavioral 1 science in public communication from Hardin-Simmons University in Abilene, Texas. He was formerly employed as a loaned executive for the United Way of Salt Lake City. He was the public relations specialist for Visit Salt Lake, Director of Advertising and Exhibits for the American Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. He was also an account executive for Utility Data Institute Data and Directories/Platts McGraw Hill Financial. Mr. Jones, you just celebrated your 21st anniversary with NACVA; congratulations, Brien. BKJ: Thank you, Troy. MTH: It is becoming rare to meet people who have been with the company for so long. How do you feel about your tenure so far? BKJ: Thank you, Troy, for asking me that. I am excited to have served 21 years with this company. It's been a great organization to work for. How I feel about my tenure—it's been a wonderful opportunity for me, because having initially been hired as a meeting planner for the organization, I had some experience in meeting-planning when I started here with the NACVA. One of the things that has been really incredible for me is that the organization has given me opportunity upon opportunity to seize upon my talent and my ambition. I was initially hired as a meeting planner central to delivering education and training. Because of my role in organizing and executing meetings, it gave me exposure to the experts who build our curriculum and teach to the profession. This gave me exposure to how the organization is governed and establishes policies for credentialing, which gave me exposure to our membership and the marketing efforts to retain and recruit our members. This gave me insight into the financial operation of the organization. Through my career our CEO—and also coupled with my ambition, it allowed me to grow 2 and expand my influence and direction on the company even creatively. My initial degree in college was not in association management, and I never thought that I would be doing that. It was in broadcast journalism. And even in regards to being contemporary with companies, social media, and other media for delivering training, but also marketing. I was able to utilize my interest and skill in that way. The organization has been really good to me and we have that same philosophy with our other staff. We really want them, obviously, to perform in a core role for the company, but they bring so many other talents, skills, and ambition. Where that's matched with our desire to grow the company, we give the opportunity for that. It’s been fun for me. I never thought that I would have remained here for 21 years like, I birth the child 21 years later. MTH: In full disclosure, I was hired by Mr. Jones in July of 2017 and I still continue to work at the time of this interview here at NACVA. I must say with absolutely no humility, it may prove to be Brien's best decision yet. BKJ: I would have to say, I'm glad you feel that way. MTH: Brien, you're currently the chief operations officer and the executive vicepresident of NACVA. How long have you been in these high-level positions and do you get two salaries for that? BKJ: It would be nice if I did. I don't get two salaries, but I was promoted to the chief operations officer and executive vice president about three years ago. That would have been 2015. Prior to that, I was more focused on the education of the organization. I directed the education at events and I also oversaw business development opportunities as this organization established relationships with federal regulator, regulatory agencies and other legal and 3 financial organizations, pioneering those relationships and keeping the brand of our membership and their credentials pretty high in the audiences of individuals who engage our members for financial consulting services. But within the last three years, my focus has been more on the overall operations and also maintaining and building those strategic relationships. MTH: How did NACVA find you? BKJ: Back in the day, you actually had to read paper classified ads, and that's how I found the NACVA through the Salt Lake Tribune. Slowly reading classified ads and circling them for most folks who are more used to looking for jobs. Now you've got Monster, KSL online, Glassdoor, and more electronic classified advertising. But I was looking for a position in hospitality and tourism, and meeting planning. When I moved from Washington D.C. to Utah right after the Olympics were awarded to Salt Lake, I thought, surely, I'd find a position in this industry—meeting convention hospitality tourism, and responded to that classified ad, and came in, interviewed, and they hired me. MTH: That brings up a question. As part of your bio, you mentioned that you that you hold a diplôme from the International Olympic Committee for volunteerism during the 19th Olympic Winter Games held in Salt Lake City, Utah. BKJ: Yes. MTH: What is that? BKJ: When I was cast in the Olympic opening and closing ceremonies as a placard bearer—so, if you recall, if you've ever watched the Olympics when the country's teams entered the Olympic Stadium, they enter alphabetically with a volunteer who carries the flag [placard] for that country. I was the placard bearer for Andorra. After being cast and all so it was right after the terror 4 attacks going through somewhat of a security clearance because of our access to the athletes and also being in that stadium. There was a series of training that the Olympic organizing committee met. They were in charge of the opening closing ceremonies, they put the entire cast through and our roles as placard bearers were directly involved with hosting and coordinating the traffic and the interface with the athletes. What is the arena on the University of Utah’s campus at the basketball stadium where they play basketball? MTH: Huntsman Center? BKJ: The huntsman center is where they staged the athletes before they entered the stadium. So for many hours on the opening ceremonies day, we had to arrive there. The athletes arrived into the stadium, and we hosted our team and other countries. Hosted their countries teams up for hours and hours and they were encouraged to visit with them and talk about their aspirations. Help them network and meet with the other athletes from all around the world. It was the first time the entire delegation of athletes were in one place, at one time, as they were being staged to go into the stadium. So that involved some training with the specific training as to the production of the ceremony. But also specific training geared to supporting the athletes while they were in that “holding pen”. We facilitated that sportsmanship and that networking between the athletes. It was an incredible experience. It changed my life actually. MTH: How so? BKJ: Often times, I can speak to myself where I've wished and said, “I wish that I had done this or I wish that I had done that.” When I was in that stadium with those athletes, these were people who just didn't say, “I wish I could be in the Olympics.” They dedicated their entire life to being in the Olympics, full 5 knowing that they likely would not ever win a medal. Having that perspective particularly, just as the games were starting and the American flag that stood atop the World Tower the World Trade towers that had been devastated previously by the terror attacks—the flag came right by me and my countrymen Andorra and the states behind us. The Mormon Tabernacle Choir were singing the national anthem. We were all singing the national anthem. And I grew up singing, all of my life and I even sang professionally many years before I moved to Utah. They heard me singing, not only my team, but the others. After the song was over, the athletes came up to me and asked me, "Are you a singer? Are you a singer?” I had always wanted to be, but I'd never put myself in a place where I pursued that as a goal or an aspiration for myself. But I thought in that moment, “How can I say no to wanting to pursue my dream or fulfill my dream when these athletes were here for that purpose?” And so, I answered that question, “Yes.” And they asked me to sing the national anthem for them again. So right before the beginning of the ceremonies and after the song had already been sung, I was encircled by a number of athletes who were encouraging me to sing. I sang personally for them and they sang with me. From that point on, I started pursuing some personal goals of mine that I had wanted to achieve before. It really changed me and gave me the motivation to get off the log that I had been on, and start pursuing more of my dream to be a singer or an actor. And some of the artistic expression that I am still doing to this day. It changed my life. MTH: Thanks for sharing that. 6 BKJ: Yeah. MTH: Well we're going to step back now, and learn a little bit about the man behind this legend. BKJ: Sure. MTH: Will you just tell me a little bit about your background as far as childhood and growing up just where you grew up some hobbies families? BKJ: Sure. I am the middle child of three. My mom is from Texas—bred, born, and raised in east Texas by her parents, my grandparents. They moved to West Texas when she was a young girl. She met my dad, who was in the Air Force and was stationed at the Air Force Base in West Texas. So I'm an Air Force brat. My parents divorced when I was a young kid and so I always had an anchor in Texas where my mom lived because she lived there all her life—she still lives there now actually. But my dad being stationed in the Air Force, moved to a number of places all over the world. And then when they divorced it gave me a great opportunity to have this gypsy adventurous spirit because I was able to go live with my dad in places all over the U.S.—actually Air Force bases, but also Japan and Germany and then returning to the United States to a red dirt town in West Texas. I had a great childhood, and that adventurous spirit really is kind of makes up how I made my path and even to this profession and dealing with hospitality and tourism. But I grew up and graduated from college. I grew up in Texas and graduated from college in Texas from Hardin-Simmons University—which is affiliated with Baylor University. I took a lot of coursework also through Baylor. My degree was in public communications, so I had aspirations to be a broadcast journalist. Back when I graduated from Hardin- 7 Simmons, I moved to Washington D.C. where my dad was raised. My grandmother raised him in Washington D.C. So again, growing up as a kid, when I would go visit my grandma in the summers, I had the ability to experience and explore the museums and the culture and all the wonderful things about Washington D.C. That also was a great experience as a child. But after graduating from college, I moved to D.C. and pursued a career in broadcast journalism with the NBC national affiliate. The network— which is the national NBC affiliate—and I worked with them for a short time as a cub reporter meaning, I took the cameras out and did the grunt work for the talent to look good on camera. And at that time it was a great career, but I wasn't making a whole lot of money. I had ambition to be talent on screen, and I begged for that opportunity, but I was never really given it. So I needed to make more money in D.C. a very expensive city. So I moved from that, into sales with a nuclear utility services and a utility data institute, where they harnessed electric data from electric power companies all over the world benchmarking data. I did a great job there in sales, and then moved from that into the association industry with the American Association for Marriage and Family Therapists, where I was in advertising and exhibit sales before moving to Utah. When I moved to Utah, it was my most recent experience in association sales and advertising and exhibit management meeting planning that gave me that skill to take this position. I've been in Utah for 23 years and I love it. And since moving here and having this great career, I have also—I'm going back to that dream that was reborn from my Olympic experience. I got the opportunity to volunteer for a 8 number of local charities and organizations as well as become a stage actor for a lot of Utah's preeminent theater companies. Balancing out quality of life and pursuing my dream to be a star or an actor or a singer. It's been a lot of fun. I feel really good about the opportunities that I've had in my life and also how Utah played into the rounding that out for me. MTH: What experiences did you have growing up or as you as you've been an adult that led you to be a leader or know that you could be a leader BKJ: I've often thought if I were to write a book I would title it, "Always the Only One." Meaning most of my life, I grew up being the only person of color in anything I ever did or experience. In elementary school, moving around a lot I would find that there weren't a lot of ethnic diversity in elementary schools that I grew up with. I also found even more specifically, because I would find myself back in Texas after living in these wonderful places where my dad was stationed. But I was the only one who had an experience or some exposure to the real world. Going to college, a private college in Texas, I was literally one of very few persons of color on campus that wasn't an athlete. Growing up and then taking careers in Washington D.C. and in that profession at the time there weren't a lot of people of color. In fact, the journalist Ed Bradley was my major mentor. This guy that I wanted to be because in my early 20’s there weren't a lot of persons of color represented in the media and he was incredible. That gave me ambition that it could be me. My family also, particularly my mom's family in West Texas—when I was in high school, before deciding to go to college well, not even deciding, they told me I was going to college. They instilled in me that I could do better 9 and be better and have more opportunities if I applied myself. They gave me an ultimatum to, “Go to college or you're homeless.” And they meant it. My grandparents, my pastor at the time, and our church deacon sat me down. I will never forget, in a meeting at our church, I was on the opposite side of the table, much like this. They laid before me a series of catalogs, college catalogs. They were like, "You know, you're going to college or you have no support from us." Now whether or not they would have done that, I don't know. I felt like they would, and I was scared to death and I took them very seriously. Once I got into college, I began to realize because I was one really, literally, the only one. And also that I was fairly ambitious, you know, overly ambitious—wanting to achieve things. I got involved in student government. I got involved in debate speech. I got involved in theater. Acting sort of helped in pursuing my studies in journalism. I began to realize because I was putting myself out a little bit more and also that I wasn't really competing with other persons like me of color, that it gave me opportunity. At the time though growing up that was considered in the early days, equal opportunity employment. Which was extremely controversial when it came onto the landscape in those late 80’s early 90’s. You know this thing that people of color needed to have a special opportunity for advancement. And a lot of that possibly was true. But I was in a place where regardless that I was given that equal opportunity employment, I still had to perform. It was frustrating for me that I throughout college, and even in my early career, I had to take on this perspective that I was given this role or these opportunities because of equal opportunity. Because I was a person of color and not because I was skilled, 10 smart, competitive and intelligent to be able to do the things that I was trying to achieve. From my grandmother, who on my dad's side who moved from the south and established herself in Washington D.C. And as a single parent raising my Dad. I always had this perspective from her, but also my grandparents on my mom's side, who were janitors. My grandfather was a janitor. My grandmother was a maid. How hard they worked to provide for their family. My mom was a single mother and she worked ad nauseum, jobs nonstop, just to provide a means to an end for us. I was influenced by them and that hard work, determination, putting in your time, rising above the just the average participation, in just your day to day life. It was just a part of the way I grew up. There was nothing around me that was to be stagnant and complacent. They were hard on us too, not only me, but my sister and brother—my family was. We could go out and play. We couldn't play with the kids on the street. We had to come home from school and do homework and chores inside. We'd look out the window at all the kids having fun, and even though as a child, I didn't really understand it. Growing up, I really didn't understand it, nor appreciate it. When I got into college and realized how my life was taking a different path than others’. That I had seen them just sort of, not to say, just making their way through life, but I immediately saw that if I continue to apply myself and work hard in my education and in my studies, that I could have a completely different life. I lived and saw that by the example from my grandparents—and particularly my mom—how they instilled in me that ambition. That I could work hard and really do something bigger with my life. 11 MTH: What would you say are your core values and especially in influencing your leadership. BKJ: My core value and leadership is to be a servant leader. That is in everything I attempt to do. It's to help strengthen the skill, knowledge, and confidence in people. That I have an opportunity to influence and not from a "I'm just going to tell you how to do this." But really listening and being keen to observe skill and talent and to cultivate people to grow in whatever way they want to. Obviously, professionally and in supporting their objectives with our interaction, but it's also in other aspects of their life. I really follow this philosophy of, "How can I be an angel to people?" That is even personally with people by caring and listening, having empathy, supporting, and offering advice, not from a place of judgment, but a place of lifting them up, and moving them forward, and being positive and encouraging. You know, really casting a light with them on the things that make them unique, beautiful, special, talented, and strong. Versus trying to tear people down and elevate myself. So I really embrace this servant type of leadership, where my role isn't to dictate or boss, but it's to roll my sleeves up with my colleagues, my coworkers, even friends. To help them be the best they possibly can be. Through my experience and guidance in whatever way I can influence them. Kind of one of the things that really does drive my philosophy for life, is to always be an angel to people. To be that "Guardian Angel," that sort of makes the magic happen and the mystery and things just happen. I try to be that guardian angel to people on a daily basis. To help them achieve their fullest potential. 12 MTH: So how did you come across the idea of servant leadership? That's kind of a phrase that is described, what you just described. Were there certain people that have influenced that and guided you. How did you come across that? BKJ: I was very influenced by my pastor, who later in life, became my stepdad. He married my mom much later in life, but I grew up with his servant style leadership. He was an incredible spiritual leader in our in our town Abilene, Texas. He was very compassionate for things that you wouldn't think a traditional southern Baptist minister would have compassion over. For example, I mean I'm a homosexual guy. I'm a gay man. And he knew that. But he embraced and loved me, he supported and encouraged me and never judged me. Nor did he really from his position of leadership make that fire and brimstone part of his mission or his philosophy. He also was very giving to the community and to the church leadership in the church body. I learned from him, to have humility. As a leader, it's assumed and most loved to be in that position, because they have a different level of influence or even authority over people. And some leaders now wield that. Whereas, he had that authority, but he had such compassion. He cared about people individually and I watched throughout my growing up how much he cared about people. Also, I think servant leadership—what I most took away from growing up spiritually, was the life of Christ and that humility. As I've grown, I've sort of moved away from my hard-core beliefs of the church. But what I carry with me is the philosophy of Christ, and that is giving, loving, caring and being humble. We're all one human race. And we should be trying to help each other out and not step on each other. Try to be positive, but to grow and have more opportunity but really, it just comes innately. 13 I think partly too, is growing up as a bit of an underdog, always, and you know, a divorced child, a gypsy kid who moved around a lot and didn't have core friends. I was always on the outside. This little nerd, the outcast kid. I tended to care for other nerd outcast kids like me, and we would bond and I kind of found myself in these cliques with these outcasts. It gave me this perspective of being picked on and bullied most of my life that I didn't want to ever be that way. I wanted to have that influence and a role in people's lives that was positive and uplifting. And because I experienced the opposite of that, most of my life growing up. Those were the things that mostly influenced me to really be humble and intuitive and kind and generous and wanting to serve people and help them grow. MTH: Do you feel like a standout minority in Northern Utah? BKJ: Oh, yes, I do. MTH: And when I ask that, is it always there on the edge of your mind or is it just something that you think about every once in a while? BKJ: Constantly. I feel like the fly in the milk in Utah. Everywhere I go. Certainly, in the 23 years that I've lived here you know, northern Utah has become a little more diverse, but still generally, I feel like I'm the fly in the milk and that certainly puts more pressure on me. Even if it's imposed pressure. To be constantly aware of the way I project myself, how I carry myself, how I don't have the ability to blend in like most of the population in Utah. I don't get to sort of blend in to my surroundings. As a result of that, it's extremely stressful. I often also feel that I have this responsibility to carry "the voice" for "the black guy" or the black race or the African-American experience. Because I'm generally in most cases in Utah, even still to this day. Sometimes I meet 14 people in Utah whom have never met in person a black man. I'm still surprised by that and it still happens that I come across people who are like you know… or even more younger children in families, where I'm that first interaction with a person of color. It's a lot to carry. It can sometimes be a little anxious. MTH: Have you found that to be challenging as far as career and leadership? BKJ: No. I wouldn't say it's challenging. MTH: Has it been a challenge or an obstacle in Utah? BKJ: In Utah, I don't think that it's been a challenge for me. I think the bigger challenge for me is distinguishing between what someone might perceive as discrimination or racism, versus genuine naiveté because a lot of people genuinely have not had a lot of experience or interaction with people of color. And so, they're genuinely— it's their first encounter or have had very few encounters. I had to learn that over time that it's distinguished in my mind from just pure mean-spirited hate and/or discrimination. It's just a lack of awareness and orientation. That took some time for me to separate that out and really have the perspective that northern Utah in general is a place where there's still opportunity for persons of color to pioneer. In many ways, but particularly pioneering in helping to bring understanding and knowledge and experience to people who may not have had a lot of that before with persons of color. MTH: Let me interject a question here. Do you think—this is pure speculation. Do you think because of the way you grew up, instead of in an all-black community that it has made you the person that you are, as far as being able to distinguish between racism and naiveté? That's a perspective that's really wonderful. 15 BKJ: Sure, sure and we were very poor and we did live very poorly. My dad, when my mom's family did it in Texas, were very poor in projects. So I grew up in that environment. But again, from my grandparents and my mom, we couldn't go out and participate in that. They knew for some inherent reason knew innately that if we were out running in the streets and hanging out with those kids that our lives would be in a different place. And literally, as I mentioned before, my brother and I, would look out the window at all the young kids having a great time, and we had to stay indoors and do homework, and flashcards. We were assigned books to read and this that and the other, and we were held accountable for those things when my mom came home, or when we went to my grandma's house. So the surrounding environment was very poor and in underprivileged neighborhoods. We were encapsulated inside of that. And as a result of it, I got the reverse alienation from my friends and my peers because it was perceived that we were doing something special or trying to be white and not really black. And that has always been a bit of a challenge, particularly when I pursued my education and all through growing up. Academics was important to our family and even going into college and pursuing college and earning a college degree. I was the first of my entire family both parts—paternal and maternal, to actually go to college. In my speech, I often was taunted because I talked like I was white and getting an education and pursuing you know a career. It was always perceived that I was trying to be white. It was difficult being in that middle place where you know that advancement in education gives you such a great opportunity. Everyone who decides to go that route, gets that opportunity. But for a person of color, 16 maybe not so much now as when I was younger growing up. But certainly, in the 70’s and 80’s and 90’s—when I was growing up—and there weren't a lot of opportunity for persons of color to really put themselves in a different path. I got it from both sides, kind of really, you know that I was trying to be more than everybody else going into an environment where I was the only one pioneering that. And it was isolating and lonely. But despite that I was simply ambitious and wanted to put my life on a different path. MTH: What advice would you give the emerging minority leaders for them success? BKJ: Advice that I would give to a person of color in today's business would be that there's still opportunity to pioneer to help bridge possibly a lot of the division and the antagonism that's such a part of our popular culture. It's like we all have to be in these buckets and no one's bucket is more important than the other bucket. All of the buckets matter and a perspective from a person of color can help particularly with the hardships and the life experiences. That for a person of color may have part of their fabric of who they are to help really bridge the division that there is there. And to have more compassion and to have more understanding. To not be so firmly embedded in one camp that you can't open your mind and see the perspective of others. To try to have some common ground. I would also highly encourage leaders of persons of color to think of ways that they can help others like them. You know I've had a great opportunity to get involved with my alumni association in Texas and also with some youth. Particularly youth who want to have or need some mentoring and coaching as to with the opportunities they have in life and to consider giving back a little. I think that helps broaden perspectives by being a little bit more 17 altruistic and giving back. That would be my advice, to consider the opportunities that we have to help defuse a lot of the contention and the division and this whole, “My bucket is more important than your bucket or your role or your or cause.” You know we all should be working toward a common goal. And I think as a person of color who may have had a little bit more struggle, has a different perspective would try to bring those things together. MTH: That's really all the questions I have, are there other things you want to share? BKJ: No; thank you for asking me to participate in this. It was a little more challenging than I thought. The questions were very thoughtful. You know it's interesting to see particularly in this post Obama-era where the world thought, even America, thought that African-Americans had finally arrived. And with an African-American president that things are going to be OK and America is finally moved past its hardship and hard times in history with race. And honestly, I think it's only gotten worse. I think there is hope and optimism. I do believe we're moving in a good direction. You have to heal and feel pain when you rip a wound. Often it exposes these hard feelings and misunderstandings. And again, this sort of, "I'm better than your cause.” Is more important than your cause and your cause makes no sense. I do believe that what's happening in America right now, is that though it seems cruel and mean spirited and all these camps and divisions. I'm also an optimistic person by nature and I believe that it takes this painful hard process in order to allow healing to happen. I think to your prior point, what a person of color can do as a leader is to see that. This isn't, I don't believe the end of this growth and evolution of this great country America. You 18 know it's to honestly face and accept that horrible history of our country and how slavery enslaved a race of people and many generations of people. To now coming to terms with that and it's certainly part of America's past, but it's who we are. We can't ignore that. When the understanding and the empathy and the compassion and the opportunity—really to embrace everyone for their strengths is really the opportunities that we have. I really wish though… I think of this all the time, you know, had our country not enslaved blacks, had our country not wiped off a race of Native Americans, instead embraced those groups for the strengths that they had and could have brought to this country. Even women, you know, with the right to vote and with salaries and their contribution into the workplace. But to do this, the whole fabric of our country— had our system been more focused on acknowledging people groups for their strengths instead of trying to oppress them. How much farther we would be as a country if we all really truly worked together and not you know tried to grandstand and push our way to the top by pushing others down. That's why I think hope can come this very difficult and tumultuous time with all of these race and gender issues. It's like one is more important than the other. They're all important and we should be able to collaborate to move forward. That's very Pollyanna of me, but I'm an optimistic person and I think oftentimes if it had been approached that way, just think how much stronger the country could be. MTH: Brien I noticed this Utah Business cover in the back. Tell me about that. BKJ: Our prior vice-presidents nominated me for the 40 under 40 in Utah. It was the inaugural year Utah Business actually instituted that recognition program for local leaders in Utah. They nominated me and I had no idea they did. I got this 19 notice that I had been inducted into this initial inaugural class of 40 Under 40 leaders. It was after I accepted that honor, there was a feature section in the magazine which they still carry through today. I believe where they interviewed all the leaders about their career and their goals and their aspirations. I had a great opportunity to be featured not only the magazine, but on the cover. Which was really cool. I remember the year that this magazine was out. I would be in a grocery store when it was on the newsstand and I kind of felt like a little bit of a celebrity. People would be like, "Is that you?" I'd be like, “Well yeah, it's me.” It was an extreme honor. And for the NACVA, whom I work for now, we've instituted a similar program the first in our profession who have a similar program recognizing young talent. And so, I took my inspiration to do that for our profession, from that magazine. Because it was really nice to give younger professionals an opportunity to shine, particularly when they're you know rising leaders. It's pretty cool. MTH: A great honor. 20