Oral History Program Rosaline Hester David Messina 28 May 2008 i Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Rosaline Hester Interviewed by David Messina 28 May 2008 Copyright © 2012 by Weber State University, Stewart Library ii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in Special Collections. The Stewart Library also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description The Weber State College/University Student Projects have been created by students working with several different professors on the Weber State campus. The topics are varied and based on the student's interest or task for a specific assignment. These oral history assignments were created to help Weber State students learn the value and importance of recording public history and to benefit the expansion of the Weber State oral history collections. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Hester, Rosaline, an oral history by David Messina, 28 May 2008, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Abstract: This is an oral history interview with Rosaline Hester. It is being conducted on May 28, 2008 at 1401 Country Hills Drive, Ogden, Utah and concerns the Civil Rights Movement. The interviewer is David Messina. DM: My name is David Messina, and this interview is held on May 28, 2008, and it will be covering the Civil Rights Movement. RH: Well, I was seven then. I was a little younger, but I remember. DM: Okay. Well, what kind of general feelings come to mind when you think of the Civil Rights Movement? RH: Okay, well, I was in Alabama. I do remember there was "colored only" fountains—and the "white only", and certain restaurants we were not allowed to go into. Certain buses that would not even let us on. It was really a bad time as far as blacks are concerned. My mother's aunt, which raised my mother, she did domestic work and I remember whenever we would go to the house, I could play with the kids but if company came, I had to go through the back door. We couldn't go through the front door, we had to go through the back door. They went to church a lot, ‘cause one day Jesus was going to deliver us. I was Pentecostal. We had a strong Pentecostal background. My aunt, she played the piano for the choir, and we went to church like six days a week. I do remember when Martin Luther King got killed. I remember when John F. Kennedy got killed, and I remember when Robert Kennedy got killed and Malcolm X. When Martin Luther King got killed I was in Brooklyn, and Black Panther's rioted—they burned down people's businesses, they burned, they just totally wrecked for blocks and blocks, down 1 to a shopping area, Pickens Avenue. And it had a lot of clothes stores, you know, a lot of nice stores there. And even if you were black, and it was your business, they burned it down. Rioting, police shooting, it was, really you know a bad thing. I remember when John F. Kennedy got killed. My aunt broke down in tears. Most black people cried, because he has given us the right to vote, which was received in 1968. Oh, I do remember when our bussing started; when there was bussing for children, to different... DM: Oh, the desegregation? RH: Yeah, I remember that. And then on the bus and going to school people spit on us. DM: Did you participate in that? RH: Eventually. DM: Okay. RH: Yeah, I wasn't one of the first ones, of course not. But yes, yes in Alabama. With Governor, what's his name, but he's governor. He ran for president, but I can't remember his name. But he was really against Civil Rights. They called in Marshall Law, so kids could go to school. He was like telling the army, you know, this is not happening and the police was going to get the army. I remember in Montgomery, ‘cause I was in the building. I remember whenever they bombed the church and the four little black girls got killed. I was in Alabama during that time. DM: Was that a scary period of your life? Do you remember being filled with fear or anything? RH: Yes, because my aunt she was involved in Civil Rights, and they burned the cross, and they come by and they shoot it out. When my mother's grandmother, her mother, she 2 was a slave. She would grow up and then she remembers being, having the right, you know to, after they... DM: What kind of effect did organizations have such as like the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, or the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee? Do you know anything? RH: I don't know anything about them. I'm NAACP. DM: Okay, did that help with an organization to unite the communities? RH: Yes, we had marches. Teaching was different when you went to an all-black school than when you went to a segregated school, because when you went to an all-black school they never teach you that much. They didn't have books. You had some books, the old books that the other children didn't need anymore. That's what you got. DM: That's kind of a clear example that segregation isn't really equal because you would get the used copies of the old books. Did you ever participate in any boycotts or anything of that nature? RH: No. DM: Do you remember the Montgomery Bus Boycott at all? RH: I was there for that. I was in Alabama; I do remember it. Wait a minute, wait a minute. I do remember we wouldn't catch buses because no one would catch the city buses because they were boycotted and that was for almost a year. My aunt, she had to work nights. She worked like four or five miles away and she would drag me and we would walk the five miles. Walk there and walk back, because if you were on the bus and a person of another color would get on and you would see... there was no seat, they 3 made you get up and stand. And if you didn't want to do it they'd put you off the bus whether you paid or not. If the bus is crowded, they wouldn't even stop for you or if they stopped at a stop and you were black, they wouldn't let you on, because you were black and there were no seats, so you couldn't get on the bus. Wait 'til next bus comes along., I remember I went to... We was at a park, and I couldn't read, and I went to go drink out of the water fountain, and my aunt had a fit. She told me, "No, you can't drink this water fountain." There was a water fountain all the way at the other end of the park, and I was like, "I want to drink this one." She said, "No, you can't." And that's when I first realized there was actually a real difference because I wasn't allowed to drink, and then she taught me "whites only" and "colors only." I learned how to read both those words. She made sure I knew how to read those words, because if I was ever by myself, it would be a big problem. DM: When you first really came to that realization that there was that difference, how did you feel? Did you feel cheated at all or deprived? RH: I felt hurt. I'm the mother of a fifteen-year-old. My son didn't know he was black until he was six, and in Long Island there's Orthodox Jews and they're very prejudiced. And I was friends with this Italian woman. Her name was Roseanne and she worked downstairs at the store. I lived upstairs over the restaurant and Chance would play with different kids, you know. And children, they don't realize the differences in color until someone tells them. So the woman came out. Chance was playing with their son and she was Italian. Chance is black. And the children were playing, she comes up to them "Don't play with him. He's black." And my son turned around, "Who?" She said, "You, Chance." He said, "Mom I'm not black, am I?" I said, "Yes you are." He says, "Well, why 4 didn't you tell me?" It's something that you don't think to tell children, that you're black. You know, I mean, I was raised where you was put on prejudice. My mother's not racist. You know she had no racism and she grew up in a time when there was deathly differences between blacks and whites, and there was obvious differences, and she was like listen, you know. You don't judge people by their color; you judge them by their character, and that's how we grew up. When we moved to Long Island and my mother moved to mostly white neighborhood and it was like out of about 2,500 kids, there was like 70 black children, and three were Puerto Ricans. And there was a big difference. There was a big difference, and I mean some of them were very nice, but other ones, they wouldn't talk to you. You know, if you sat down by them, they would get up and would go to a totally different table, you know. DM: Do you think if you were living in Alabama still, do you think that would still exist with your son? RH: In some areas. I know Mississippi's still like that in certain areas. Like, a few years ago in Texas, the black man. He was next door and they drew him up and they tied him up to a truck and they drug him. Kay, yes, you know, some people. And then, you look at that as ignorance, because if you don't ever give anybody a chance to where you learn about them, then how do you ever know? I mean, how can you judge somebody because you don't know them, because of the color of their skin? You know, I mean, you have to give somebody a chance to see exactly what they're about, and then maybe you might find something that you like about them and build on that. 5 DM: Yeah. Some activities that were sponsored by groups like the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee and I'm sure the NAACP, also, they had activities that were designed to fill city jails just as a way of voicing themselves. RH: Oh, we had a song we used to sing. I remember marching with my aunt, "We Shall Overcome One Day." And it's an old play song. “We shall overcome, we shall, we shall overcome one day.” And I remember that and I remember they let the dogs loose. Police dogs, big German shepherds and they turned the water hoses on the people. And my aunt took me around the corner and in between is a store front and she took me around the corner, so I would not get hit, you know. And then she left me and my brother there, and said, "Stay here for a few minutes." You know, so everything subsided. DM: So, that's impressive. Did you know anyone that spent time in jail? RH: I knew, I knew a couple of Black Panthers - I don't remember their names ‘cause I was so young, but I remember the Black Panther movement and they were very militant. They believed in an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. They had an arsenal. I remember this guy, his name was Daniel. My baby-sitter was one of them, and he took me to a Black Panther meeting one time and they had guns on the table. They were very militant. Matter of fact, they got to the roof and they sniped and killed a couple of police officers. DM: Wow. You talked about the hoses and the German shepherds. Did you know anyone personally that...? RH: Oh, yes. I knew somebody, but I can't remember their names. I was like seven. 6 DM: That must have been a scary time. RH: Yes. DM: With the Black Panther movement, was that pretty widespread? RH: You know, it started in Oakland and I don't remember in Alabama, but when I moved to New York, my mother moved to Brooklyn and it was. But we was the only black family on the block. Everybody else was Puerto Ricans. And then there was prejudice there, because we was the only black family on the whole block full of Puerto Ricans and only a few people would talk to me because I was black. DM: Also, I've seen pictures of black students or just other students that are sitting at the lunch counter with a sit-in. Did you ever see those or participate in those? RH: No, no. I was seven. My aunt, she would go, and she would, you know. They would hold meetings and they'd march, or they'd walk. They'd protest like you said, because she had us, me and my brother, she didn't walk. But I remember we was watching Martin Luther King. He came and he organized, he came to church and they came to church and they got people to sign up to petition and then at the church, all the different churches would get together and they'd walk. DM: You mentioned earlier you're Protestant, right? RH: No, Pentecostal. DM: Pentecostal, yeah, sorry. And you just had that belief that Jesus would deliver you and then with that song, "We Will Overcome," what kind of role did faith play in your lives? RH: Faith played a big part. The way life was, if you had anything to report to, I mean you were actually more. And blacks, especially back during that time they had a strong 7 religious belief, because no matter how bad life gets, in this life, you know there's going to be something better. After this life is over… My aunt always told us, she said, "No matter what you do in life, you treat people the way you want them to treat you. If you do this, you will live a good life." But she also believed in… You pray. In the morning when you get up and before the meals you pray, because if you don't pray, you're never going to be delivered from this hellish life that you're living now. I remember walking down the street with my aunt and this man pulled up into the alley and actually tried to rape her. He was Caucasian, of course. And she beat him with... He was surprised when she beat him, and me and my brother was with her. And they actually took her to jail. They took her to jail. And then her sister came from New York to stay for a while until she got out of jail. But it was a big thing. There were, you know, because he was a white man and she was black, and during that time, we had no rights at all. DM: With that faith that you had that would kind of carry you through hard times, did you see any people that seemed to have lost that faith or that hope of ever gaining those rights that you didn't have? RH: You know what? Like my son's fifteen; my son doesn't know what it is not to have the right to vote. Like in New York a lot of blacks—they don't vote. "Why don't you vote?" "Because there's nobody that I'm really interested in. I don't care who's president." But I remember a time when there was no right to vote. You know, I mean, for years we couldn't vote. DM: So do you vote? RH: I vote every time. Every election I vote. My candidate wins or loses, I vote. 8 DM: That's great. RH: I didn't vote for Bush. Never, either election I never voted for Bush. I never liked what Bush stood for. DM: Okay. What would you and your family do to keep from losing that hope or that, just...? RH: Oh, my family is, they're very religious, conversation about family and religion - not applicable . DM: So it sounds like throughout the South, black religious activity was pretty high during the Civil Rights Movement. RH: Yes, very religious. Back in the 1960’s when I was growing up, everything was based around the church. Every activity that you did was based around the church. DM: Have you been back since then? Is it still the same? RH: Oh, my aunt passed years ago, and so I haven't been back since then. But when I went back there, it was a lot different. DM: In what way? RH: I could go and sit down. I could go in a movie theater and wouldn't have to go to the balcony. Growing up if you went to the movies, the whites sat on the main floor and blacks sat on the balcony. You know. And I went back to the movies and I sat next to a Caucasian couple, you know and they were very nice, "Hi, how you doing? Where you from?" You know, I guess that's ‘cause you could tell I wasn't from there. "Where you from?" You know. I tell them I'm from here. I didn't have a southern drawl. And it's a lot different than it was. But they did tell me there are certain areas, like back in the 9 country, there are certain things that you just don't go. So it's still, you stay out of a lot areas that are still white only. DM: What kind of effect did it have when Martin Luther King Jr. died or when other leaders like that died? What kind of effect did that have on the— RH: Solemn. Everybody seemed to get into a state of depression because it seemed like you'd just take one step forward and then you take three steps back. DM: How did it affect the kind of hope that you would eventually gain those rights that you deserved? RH: For a long time, they didn't think it was going to happen. Well, you know, ‘cause actually blacks they had the right to vote since the 1800’s, but they stopped it. In the early 1800’s there was a black senator. You never hear about him. There was a black congressman. But you didn't ever hear about him. But there has been some. In Florida, I mean, he was elected. There was a black government official, but you never hear about him. DM: So, it's been said that at that time in the 1960’s with the movement people had said that it wasn't the right time to go for it, to make the push. But was that the right time? RH: It was. DM: Did they wait too long, do you think? RH: They should've tried earlier. Yes, they should've tried earlier, but then again they might not have made it then because even during World War II, as my aunt says, her son died, her son died in WWII. He died. Okay, we were very proud of the airmen, my aunt always talked about the airmen. You know, and there was a study, and I can remember 10 my aunt telling me about the study. They purposely infected black men with syphilis, so that they could see how syphilis progressed. And they had a treatment for it, but they didn't give it to them. You know, so I remember a lot of things like that. My aunt, she would always get paper and tell me, "The one thing you gotta do is you gotta learn how to read. You gotta be educated. If you don't do this, the rest of the generations are lost." You know, so education was a big thing. Education now, children, they take it for granted. They don't realize that in the last 40 years, had we actually been able to be educated and had to get the same education as everybody else. DM: I guess that will do, so, thank you very much. RH: Not a problem. 11