Oral History Program Eugene Ung Interviewed by Chelsea Newsome Kocherhans 7 April 2016 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Eugene Ung Interviewed by Chelsea Newsome Kocherhans 7 April 2016 Copyright © 2023 by Weber State University, Stewart Library Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. 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These oral history assignments were created to help Weber State students learn the value and importance of recording public history and to benefit the expansion of the Weber State oral history collections. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Ung, Eugene, an oral history by Chelsea Newsome Kocherhans, 7 April 2016, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, Special Collections and University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Abstract: This is an oral history interview with Eugene Ung. It is being conducted on April 8, 2016 via the internet at Chelsea Newsome Kocherhan’s home and concerns his experience with minority leadership in Utah. The interviewer is Chelsea Newsome Kocherhans. CK: This is an oral history interview with Eugene Ung, conducted by Chelsea Kocherhans on April 8, 2016 at 11:45 a.m. via the internet in Chelsea Newsome Kocherhan’s home. In this interview Mr. Ung is going to discuss his experiences with leadership, specifically focusing on minority leadership and mentors that have helped him get to where he is today. So first of all, can you start by telling us about your background, your childhood, where you grew up, your teen years, hobbies, family values, and education, etc.? EU: Well, let's see here-I am an ABC which means an American Born Chinese. So even though I am of Chinese descent, I was born in the states here. Unfortunately, I actually don't speak Chinese and it's kind of a disadvantage now as I am older. My first language was actually Cantonese and I completely forgot everything. I have a younger sister and I think when she got older and we were going to school we started to speak English more and more, and we just eventually forgot. My parents do speak Chinese and it's one of these things where I wish I had paid more attention, and realized the importance of speaking multiple languages. In any case, I was born and raised in West Covina and I went to school in California through high school. I went to college in New York at Cornell University. I have a degree in Nutrition Sciences. My father- the company I work in is called Best Formulations. We are a contract manufacturer of dietary supplements. It's a company my father started back in 1984 and so I have grown up in the industry, 1 so to speak. I always have had a personal interest in health and nutrition. This guided my collegiate studies in Nutritional Sciences. After school I had worked with another company in the dietary supplement industry. It was with a couple of medical doctors starting a new company selling dietary supplements customized for individuals, having a consultation model with the medical professionals. The company lasted for about 10-12 years. Unfortunately, there was a falling out between the two founding doctors. The company closed up. Afterwards, I came back to work with my father at his company. The role that I am in is CEO. I have been in this role for about 5 years now. My father is pretty much retired from the company. He is not involved with the day-to-day operations anymore, but in my process of getting here I did have a very good mentor, actually, with one of the doctors of the company we started back in 2000. I think that was extremely helpful for my professional development because you learn a lot, obviously, in college. You get a lot of good experiences, but it isn't work experience. And everyone gets a college job. I worked in the dining halls. To the extent that you have that sort of training, that's wonderful and all, but you knowyou don't really know how to build a company or manage people or put together teams or execute it. It's a completely different ball game, and it's funny: I still remember the very first day we started this company, I was basically the person on the ground taking care of the operations. The two doctors were the ones in charge primarily of product development and basically talking to patients and recommending the products to them. So they were more the sales/product development side and I was on the operation side. So it was my job to set up the office and take care of that part. Now, as a college graduate you think you know 2 everything and I distinctly remember the very first day we opened, so to speak. The doctor came in and he was like, “Where's the phone? Where's the stapler? Where's the pens?” And I had no idea. I didn't think about these things you never think about when you open up a business the infrastructure. A lot of people work for companies and the infrastructure is already there. There's a system in place: when you start, you get issued a computer, you get issued a phone, this and that. And so having to start up everything literally from step 1 was eye-opening. It was like, “Okay, this stuff doesn't exist. You have to put it together.” The other eye opening experience was hiring employees because that's something that very few people are naturally-they aren't naturally trained in what to do, what to say, what to look for. That was a very steep learning curve, as well. Not just interviewing and hiring employees but what to do with them, how to tell them to do something, because a lot of times you assume that people know what to do or you just kind of give them little project and off they go. You think that they have the same background, ambition, knowledge, whatever, to complete the task. But depending on the position, especially if it's entry level, you really have to go step-by-step. And this is where I learned the importance of training or lack of training, in how to train and what training actually looks like. The term training is used so broadly. It's like, “Training is important. We’ve got to train. We’ve got to train.” But how do you train? So these are just some of the basic things that I learned very quickly in working with this new company, and the doctor that kind of mentored me through this. CK: Alright, awesome. So what experiences did you have in your childhood, teen years, adult years that led you to believe that you were or could be a leader? 3 EU: Well, I was always active in sports in high school. I was voted captain of our sophomore basketball team. I think leadership is one of these things where you kind of get a sense that people are kind of following you. There are some people that think they are leaders and run out there and no one's behind them. I know I am definitely more of a quiet leader. I don't you know go out there and want to draw a whole bunch of attention, but I definitely try to get educated and knowledgeable at the task in hand and talk to various people and get their opinion on things. Through projects in school or what not I would say that I was always kind of the backbone from the standpoint of doing a lot of the heavy lifting. But at the same time, realizing that the tasks needed to be distributed. I think one of the challenges for a lot of people is that it's easier for them to do everything themselves, and I think that carries on with them into the professional life where they're not able to let go. Looking at a lot of T.V. shows nowadays on entrepreneurship, on cable T.V., that's a challenge a lot of entrepreneurs have, is how to let go and trust other people: train them, trust them, empower them to do their job so that you can do your job effectively. But in any case, going through school there really is not a whole lot of leadership classes or training, to be honest with you. Going back to your question here, even as a captain of the basketball team I didn't know what that meant, honestly. I didn't really know that at the beginning of the game you go out there, talk to the ref a little bit, and shake hands with the other side. That was my perceived role; the coach didn't really tell me, “Okay, you're the captain. This is the responsibility. This is what you need to know and do.” It was only years after the fact that I kind of got a better understanding of what that was. It was unfortunate that I didn't get the opportunity to learn what it meant 4 to be a captain and be able to develop that a little bit more and apply it while I was in that role. CK: Interesting. EU: In any case, I think also leadership too is just that sense of responsibility, of “you got to get things done even if other people are slacking in terms of group projects” or whatever. You want to take responsibility. It's definitely an important character of a leader because at the end of the day the buck stops with you. CK: Interesting. So what are your core values and how have they influenced your leadership experiences and your abilities? EU: My core values are basically, at the end of the day, the truth is what it is or the facts are what they are. In the work and professional environment I have found that there are a lot of occasions where people will kind of scuttle around the facts or maybe not disclose certain facts for whatever reason, and at the end of the day the facts are what they will always stand above and beyond anything else. What's important to me, is people have to know what the facts are. They can't be afraid of them and they have to understand that it is what it is and at the end of the day, it will come back and bite them. That's an important aspect. Another important thing that I believe holds true for any successful individual -- whether it be a leader, follower, employee, or manager -- has a thirst for knowledge and is always wanting to learn something, and thinking that there is room for improvement. There are a lot of people who think they know everything I have been through, all this training here, and there isn't that sort of hunger or thirst to learn something new. Or, “I have been doing it this way and this is the best way to do it.” I think that can be tragic at times because things change, absolutely. 5 Especially in this environment with technology and you add social media and all these things. Things change very quickly. You have to have an open mind and a thirst to learn about things and not just--. What I tell people, is learn something new every day. It doesn't need to be something related to your work. It can be a hobby or it can be something you are passionate about or interested in, but at least you are learning something. And tomorrow you always know a little bit more than yesterday. You will continue progressing if you have that mindset. CK: I like that. Can you name a person who has had a tremendous impact on you as a leader? You talked about your coach; is there anyone else who has been a mentor to you? Why and how did this person impact your life generally and your leadership ability specifically? EU: That's a good question. I don't have a good answer, unfortunately. There are a lot of different leaders with different styles out there. In school you study them, even after work in the professional environment. There are plenty of books written, seminars. Honestly, I think Warren Buffett stands out just because he is a quiet leader. You know? He is not the showy type. He is very steady, extremely knowledgeable. I have never met him but I have read a couple books on him. He's got an incredible memory and does tons of research. That's his advantage, so to speak: that he knows more than anybody else about the business and that enables him to make decisions, but his personality is very humble. He is like the billionaire next door, so to speak. And I think those values are similar to mine. You hear people talk about Steve Jobs, Elon Musk, or your Larry Ellison's out there. These are much different sorts of leadership styles to the point that they’re somewhat controversial. Do their leadership styles work for everybody? What I have learned is that every individual has a certain personality trait, and the 6 leadership style that best suits you is the one where you have to understand what your strengths and what your weaknesses are and mold it around that. Rather than turning yourself into something that you think you can be or that you're not because you are always fighting yourself. So I think that's one of the things that is important in leadership is to understand who you are, first and foremost, and what your strengths and weaknesses are. There is different ways to look at strengths and weaknesses. Some people say, “You’ve got to strengthen your weaknesses to be more well-rounded.” Then there is another camp of leadership that says -- which is strength-based leadership -- that focuses more on the strengths, then you get help, outside help to complement your weaknesses, meaning that you can't be good at everything and that's okay. So look at these different styles out there; see what speaks to you, what fits. It's kind of like exercise: people say, “What's the best exercise out there?” And everyone's got a different opinion; it could be cardiovascular, weight training, sports, whatever it may be. But honestly, the best exercise is the one you do every day and are consistent with. It could be jump-roping. That's the best exercise if you do that every day because if you don't pick up the weights, it's not good. CK: Right. EU: It’s the same thing with leadership, I think. It's the style that speaks to you that you practice and you hone, and you improve on that skill. I think that is the best leadership style. CK: Okay, awesome. How have you been a mentor to others? EU: So when I started with the doctors in 2000, it was a young company, meaning that I myself at the time-- I believe I was 25 years old, and we hired a lot of high 7 school graduates who were a few years younger than me. Also one of the doctor’s his son. His oldest son at the time was just barely graduating high school or something like that. So after a few years, it was a very uncomfortable situation for me from a leadership standpoint. Within three to four years I felt much more confident in terms of what leadership meant, how to train people, how to get people to work together, how to develop a plan and execute it. And with kids that -- I use the term kids because they really were, they were around 20 years of age -- these were kids that didn't have college degrees that might not have come from the best families. We are here in Southern California, Los Angeles area, paying minimum wage at the time, which was I think $7 or $8 at the time. So we're not necessarily getting the brightest and the best; however, they were hungry. They were looking for structure. They were looking for discipline because they didn't get it at home, perhaps. And that was really fulfilling, to be that mentor for them that they might not have had. It got to the point where it was kind of good and bad. This is maybe my personality, where I kind of see the glass is half full. There were about three or four employees at the time that we had. We were pretty much their first or second job out of school, in terms of an office job. Maybe they had worked at McDonald's or something like that before. which is fine, nothing wrong with that. They [McDonald’s] have a great training program and they are able to teach systems and things like that. In any case, I remember this one girl specifically: if you had a conversation with her, you would be thinking, “Wow, does she even have a fifthgrade education?” I mean she had very low self-esteem, kind of hunched over. I don't remember during the interview process what we saw in her. Maybe she really wanted to learn or had the opportunity and she came up 8 fairly quickly within a couple years. I mean she was much more confident. She was a model employee. She was someone who was very different in a relatively short period of time. So we had a few employees. One of them went to a Bank of America and I think this was the early 2000's- I think the banks were very-they were hiring left, right, and center with the real estate boom and what not, and unfortunately they hired away three or four of our staff in a relatively short period of time. We were a little sore for that. But they did tell me afterwards, though, that the skills that they learned helped them get the job because they wouldn't have been able to get it before when they didn't know what systems were. They didn't know what structures were. Specifically, they were asked during the interview at Bank of America, “What do you do in a situation where you're not sure what to do?” And we had always trained our staff, “If you don't know what to do, raise your hand and ask.” Simple, you know? You don't need to go in and try to fidget with this or troubleshoot that. And they told me that was the response that they were giving and they were telling them that it's amazing how very few people give that sort of response, which is what they were looking for. So we were kind of a training ground for these bigger companies. That was the unfortunate part. But at the same time, we can't provide the same sort of opportunities at the time. We couldn't provide the same sort of opportunities that a big company could, and at the end of the day we wish everybody well. If the employees leave you -- I always say, “If they leave you for the right reason, wish them well. That's a part of life and life goes on and you were the positive part in their journey.” CK: Awesome. What value-- so it sounds like you place a really high value on 9 mentoring. But could you speak more to the value that you place on mentoring? How important do you feel it is? EU: I think as a company, you have to have a culture of mentoring in order to be successful. It's easy to say it, but it's really hard to do. I don't profess to be the best mentor out there and I am always trying to improve upon that. Mentoring is like having kids. I am just recently a new parent. I am almost 40 and having my first kid. But I have the same sense of responsibility with my employees as with kids. Friends ask me, “Has life changed a lot after your daughter?” And I say, “Well, actually, not too bad.” A lot of people, when they have their first kid: that sense of responsibility completely changes. Now there is someone that you are responsible for that is relying on you. You kind of settle down and become more mature in a very short period of time. I kind of went through that at an earlier stage through work so therefore that part hasn't changed too much for me. But mentoring is a critical part of any company that wants an advantage. I am sure there are many companies that do fine without having a strong mentoring program, but I can't imagine that there are that many out there, or they’re just in very niche industries or whatever it may be. But mentoring is critical; it is something that -- the whole concept of mentoring, and I don't know if it is the same thing, but to me it is very similar. So in a management structure you want to train your team so that if something happens to you or whatever, the department moves on. That's the whole thing. It's not about job security of, “Okay, if I train everyone to do what I can do then they can take over.” That mentality certainly does exist, especially with individuals that are new to management and leadership. The more I know what to do and the other guy doesn't, that gives me 10 the advantage. I always tell people, “That mindset is that okay if you can do everything. That's great. But if you can train people to do everything, you are much more valuable to me than if you yourself can do everything. Because you can replicate yourself X times with the team, the staff, or whatever. But if you yourself are the only one that can do what you can do, then you are only 1 X. You don't have a multiplier effect.” So that's why mentorship is so critical, because you need to make a carbon copy of yourself, train and mentor others to be able to do what you can do, and that's how you advance, as well. So they are very interrelated to management structure and succession planning, and like anything else it does need to be practiced and reminded. Everyone knows mentorship is important, just like everyone knows exercise is important. But do you actually do it? That's the other part. CK: I know-Mike has told me you come to Utah a lot to work with companies, and I don't know if you can really answer this. But what do you see as the biggest challenges of being a minority leader and working with people in Utah? Because we are all predominately white here, unfortunately. I wish I could get a tan, never can. But what do you do to overcome these challenges with working with a predominately white community? EU: You know, I think it's a little different. My father actually worked in Utah. My sister was born in Springville in Utah. So we actually lived there for a little while years ago. I have cousins who still live in Utah, and they’re half-bloods. So their father was my uncle and his wife was Caucasian at the time. So they are half-Asian, half-white. So-- how should I say-- it is what it is. It's a reality that is out there. I mean there is no-- it is what it is. I think for me, there are a couple differences: 11 number one because I speak English only and I don't really have an accent or whatever. I think that is pretty helpful if you have an accent. Now I am used to hearing accents of different whether it be Asian, Chinese accents or other Asian country accents or Mexican accents or whatever it does take a little getting used to understanding what the person says. People from different countries typically their accents are kind of similar. So if I had a mild or medium accent it might be a little bit more difficult for people to understand me because they are just not used to hearing that however I don't think-I shouldn't have an accent because English is the only language I know. So I think that makes things a little bit easier. I grew up in the states so I can relate to things outside of work such as sports, politics you know things like that. You know business is not just about the task at hand. There is a lot of personal relationship building. You get to know people there is certainly companies and people that you like working with cause you like the people. You like the personalities. They are good people. The good thing about Utah, generally speaking, is there are a lot of good people in Utah. I mean-the values that a lot of people in Utah have are the same values that I personally have. You know hard working, want to learn, humble; not out there trying to you know get a lot of attention unnecessarily. So that certainly helps. Another part of it to, in business you have to be realistic when it comes to these sorts of ethnicity things. So we actually have a pretty diverse workforce within our company: we have Caucasians in executive management roles. We have other Asians in high roles. We've got Hispanics, African Americans. It's almost like the UN within our company here. I can't remember -- our HR Director was saying that like 17 languages are spoken at our company or something like 12 that. So the diversity, especially nowadays, it's almost an advantage. And also, this is a credit to Utah. Utah has come a long way. It's evolved. I don't say evolved-- I don't say evolved meaning that it was kind of a Darwinian evolution, but there is a lot more diversity in Utah today then there was even ten years ago. Just go to any restaurant or whatever -- there is a lot more ethnic diversity. But generally speaking to -- and I am generalizing with the LDS church -- but you know, you go through the mission where you go to other countries too. I think that helps to have that. So I think that people in Utah have a much more open mind typically than your stereotypical "Caucasian" state. I think that's part of the reason why our industry or the direct-to-consumer supplement industry is so prevalent in Utah because of that missionary mindset and training, I guess you could say. I think at the end of the day it hasn't been that huge of an issue, honestly. CK: Oh good, good! What advice would you give an emerging young minority leader in order to be successful? EU: Mentorship is always important. Find a mentor that you know; you have to trust this mentor, meaning that you can't question what they say. They ask you to do something, you do it and try to understand the reason why they ask you to do it. Some people, they get a mentor and question everything. “Why am I doing this?” I am going back to the Karate Kid movie; I am not sure how old you are, if you remember the Karate Kid -- not the Will Smith's son one but the Pat Morita one. Daniel Sun was doing all this random stuff, you know: waxing the car, painting the fence and whatever. And he couldn't understand why he was doing this. But at the end of the day, it all came together. And that's kind of the same thing with a mentorship: it's trust. You have to trust that the mentor has your interest in mind. It's not like an internship, but an internship and mentorship should be similar. 13 Some people think of interns like, “Get my coffee, do my laundry,” and they do menial sort of things, whereas in a mentorship, there is more of a long-term relationship built in and it's to the benefit of both individuals. B ut anyway, number one, certainly get a mentor. Number two is, in whatever industry you are in, you have to understand the people in that industry. I am speaking more to our industry in particular. There could be other industries that are less dependent on people. I don't know if I am saying it the right way but in our business relationships are critical. They really are. In other industries--and I am trying to think maybe more Silicon Valley Tech--maybe it's not as critical and everyone is communicating in a different manner. But in any case, business is very relationship-oriented. You’ve got to know the playing field. You’ve got to know the people, the personalities, because you have to understand what the people look like, what their values are, and be able to speak to that, as well. This is the ‘differentiator,’ so to speak. When you go into business, no one claims, “My product is okay” or “My service is average.” Everyone is claiming to be the best at everything, the lowest price, the most competitive, or whatever. That's a standard. That's a given. So it's very difficult to go in and promote those aspects. You have to look for an edge in other ways. And some of these other ways are in personality. We've had sales people where, for whatever reason, sales people all have different personalities and customers have different personalities, as well. And the successful ones? You match them up. That's not to say we have to be matchmaker here and move accounts around. But the point is that to be successful in sales you have to know who you are, your personality, and you have to know the other side, as well. That's not to say you have to be fake, but if you can be genuine people see that 14 right away and they appreciate that. So really, the importance of relationships and understanding that. This the EQ portion versus the IQ that everyone is talking about. So that's another thing that I would stress to a minority. I think minorities typically are very focused on education because that's kind of what they become. That's the biggest thing. They are really focused on the IQ and the EQ is not quite there. They are not as well-rounded on the EQ part and there are obviously many reasons for that. It could be language. Often times it is language or culture or whatever it might be, but they need to understand that is critical; as critical as the IQ portion to be successful in business. And once they understand that then they will work on it. CK: The final question: what other insights can you share about being a minority leader in general? And then we will close. EU: Times have changed significantly. I think being a minority leader isn't as big of a deal as it used to be. Especially with my background from the standpoint of being born in the states, growing up here, speaking English only. I do see that people can be known as being Chinese. But it doesn't bother me and maybe that's the thing as well, so I focus on other things and that minority portion is really put off to the side even more so. I think going forward, I don't think it is going to be that big of an issue, honestly. The world is getting smaller and smaller. There are a lot of Caucasians trying to learn Chinese just to get an advantage, as well. Especially here in Southern California, it is a huge advantage to speak Spanish. So there are a lot of things going on with integration and just looking at some of the laws in regards to marriage and things like that. I think, going forward with minority-owned businesses, I don't think they are going to be at a disadvantage, necessarily. If anything, it can be leveraged into an advantage, especially if they have very close 15 ties with international markets. But everyone is looking at international markets, as well. CK: Alright, well thank you so much for taking the time. I know you are busy, so thank you for taking the time to meet with me and sharing with me your insights. I appreciate you letting me do this. I know my professor was thrilled to get a Californian insight rather than a Utahan. I really do appreciate it. EU: Okay, cool. Anytime. Hopefully this was helpful. 16