Oral History Program Erika Schilef Sisneros Interviewed by Erika Wood 22 March 2008 27 September 2008 i Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Erika Schilef Sisneros Interviewed by Erika Wood 22 March 2008 27 September 2008 Copyright © 2014 by Weber State University, Stewart Library ii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. 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These oral history assignments were created to help Weber State students learn the value and importance of recording public history and to benefit the expansion of the Weber State oral history collections. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. 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It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Sisneros, Erika Schilef, an oral history by Erika Wood, 22 March 2008, 27 September 2008, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Abstract: This is an oral history interview with Erika Schilef Sisneros. It is being conducted in March 2008 at her home in Tooele, Utah, and concerns her recollections and experiences of her life in Poland and Germany during World War II. The interviewers are Erika Sisneros-Wood. EW: You were about fifteen years old when the invasion occurred, what was your life like before September 1939? ES: No, I think I was older than that but anyway, it was glorious we had carefree times, everything was provided for us. Carefree life! I went to school. On vacation time we to summer retreats, sometimes to the sea, to the Baltic Sea, or to the mountains, to the Carpathian Mountain. It was always never worried, always celebrated all the family birthdays, big get together. Never had any worries. Until when the news came up that the war break out that… It really hit my father deeply and he got despondent and he got depressed. And then we left. EW: What did your father do, how did he make his living? ES: He and his brothers and sisters, they had formed Zeh Schilef Skolka, a factory making spools. Since it was a textile city it was very profitable. I think it was profitable I don't know about finances we didn't care about that. Lodz became the nickname of the Manchester of the East. Manchester of England was the, I guess, tops in producing woolen mills and then to become, to get that nickname was a big honor. EW: Both Germany and Russia invaded Lodz? 1 ES: Yes, well that was going on for forever, from the beginning of time. They were big powerful countries and that goes back centuries already. There was always strife and war. And way back when Germany took a piece of Poland and Russia took a piece of Poland and then later on even the Austrians they took a piece of the South. And every strife, cause the Polish lost so they took another piece. On the west the Germans and in the east the Russians until it was completely wiped off the map. It just didn't exist anymore. Until like I said in the end of World War II the League of Nations or whatever it was then it gave them statute again and it became a country. But it was always kind of, militarily it was weak. Well, the Polish are fiercely proud. I guess it was even to their detriment, because way back when, they even in their so-called congress it was called, same then, that they made the laws the rules. What one came up with an idea the other one was against it and they could veto it down, so they never progressed. They fought each other, and they never became prosperous, and then the country itself was poor. Well I guess they didn't know how to manage the land, how to make it produce, harvest or... So it was a poor country. EW: At the beginning of World War II Germany invaded September 1, 1939. ES: That was the Germans when they came in and took over it. There was no resistance. In nine days they were in our town and that was already central Poland, yeah. EW: Lodz was supposed to be an important city to stop the invasion, because for Poland to survive they needed to cut the German supply lines at Lodz. Did you know how important your city was to the war? ES: No. I can't say how... well it wasn't fortified or anything like that. Well nobody was prepared for war. Lodz was the second biggest city in Poland, but it was like I said it 2 was just industrial just... so it wasn't militarily fortified or anything. The flat country, you just could run over it. That is what the Germans did. EW: Do you remember what happened that day? ES: Oh, yes! I remember when the Germans walked in with their tanks through the streets and right away we lined up at the stores and grocery stores because we knew there was going to be shortage of butter. So we lined up for that. So, the three of us— my mother, Gerda and I— we lined up so three different persons, so we got three portions. Oh I remember that, yeah, yeah. And that was already in, well like I said in September it was still a lovely day, nice and warm, no coats needed. It was great. EW: So, supplies were pretty short then, not just butter? ES: Yeah, yeah, right away they started rationing and then… My mother we always kidded her because she said I quit cooking, cause without meat I can't prepare a meal. So it was hard getting anything. Not that there was a shortage, I don't... well we never noticed a shortage but I guess for the ones that had to feed their families probably was hard, yeah, yeah. EW: Being well off helped then? ES: Yeah, Yeah. EW: You must have realized what was going on when they invaded your city. Was it a really frightening experience? What were you going through emotionally? ES: Yeah, well like...When war broke out it was the first of September. That means the family— my mother and us two girls— we were still out and on our vacation on the country side. Families that could afford it or so, got out of the hot city for vacation time. 3 So we went out in the country. We had a good time this year, by then we were already older, and there were some boys around. We danced on tennis courts, we danced on needle covered ground, we had a good time. Then my father came out one Saturday and said war broke out, we have to get back. So, we just packed up everything and we went back to the city. Like I said it was still plenty warm. School wasn't on then yet, so... but we had to go back and well, wasn't much news. But then on the ninth all of a sudden the Germans were in town. We were taken over. EW: Was your family prepared for it at all? ES: No, no. It just came so surprising, yeah. Well then in those days there was no television of course, no radio they didn't even... Well no, radio we heard the news of the war but that was in the west… like how the Americans were doing against the Germans or the Russians in the east. But it didn't concern us, it was all so far away, yeah, yeah. EW: How did life change after the invasion? ES: Well we kids we were still... no young ladies already, we were working by then already. But life was going on as usual; we were going on to work. But like my father always says, he was very depressed. It really took a toll on him and I think that took the wind out of him, and he said, “Are we gonna see good times yet ever?” But life still was going on because in peace time my mother always was going to what we call the butter lady. Every Wednesday she was going out to the farmers and brought in piles of butter and all different kinds of butter. There was the salted butter, and there was the sweet butter and there was the butter for baking, there was butter for eating. And so my mother always went every day, of course she had to taste just the sliver of each one and then she decided which one she was going to take, a pound of this, a pound of that, a pound 4 of that, cheese and eggs. And after that of course that stopped. And like I said my mother she was “Well I can't cook anymore, I can't do anything more.” We had a maid before the war, but then we had to give her up because people like this they had to go work for the war. I don't know where they put them if they put them in factories to make ammunition, or they just disappeared you know, they were just gone. And of course there was the curfew. But I remember, we girls Gerda and I, we just went as usual. Gerda still had her boyfriend. I remember we were still playing tennis. Because a guy from our neighborhood he was in the navy and he came home on furlough and he came over and he proposed to me. He was just a kid, so was I. Well, of course I just laughed it off, you know, I guessed he was crushed. But the life still went on I guess, our family birthday get-togethers they went... well you had to take your own lunches with you if you went visit your aunt, your grandmother or so. You had to take some along because it was rationed by then already but... And it didn't happen until, the Russians were coming closer. There was lots of talk, the Russians are coming the Russians are coming. And then in the winter of '44 I think, we could see the cannon fire, in the distance. So they were close, all right. And my father said, “Well you females you better get out of it.” Because, well the Russian soldiers, for that every soldier desperate for females and it was gonna be disaster, before they rape you and all that so get out. And since my mother was from Germany and she still had a sister living in, well not Berlin anymore because they were evacuated on account of the bombing. So we had the place where to go, at least where to aim at. So on the eighteenth of January, it was a, was Monday 1944 and, well all our windows were broken on account of the bombing, and our little canary froze to death even though we brought him in the middle of the room. So that 5 was the day that we left. It was beautiful, the sun was shining but it was cold. You could see the snow sparkling, but you could hear the crunch underfoot, so that's always indication it was cold. So we lived close to a railroad station, so luckily we didn't have far to go. Everybody took their, well we lived already from suitcases so we were packed. So we three females, my mother, my sister, and I, we just picked up our suitcases and walked to the railroad station and there was a train already full, but we just packed in which ever door opened. And my father came with us and he helped us get in, shoved us in. We told him come with us, come with us, what for are you gonna stay? He said “No, I know the Russians,” from his youth, he knew the language, he said “I can communicate with them. Everything will be ok. I'll take care of the place of the home; I'll be there that they don't take it away. I'll see you after the end of the war; it should be over pretty soon.” So he stayed behind, and we never saw him again. From what we heard years later from a guy that was imprisoned with him he heard that, well first he was put into prison there in Lodz, because obviously he was collaborating with the enemy. And then he was shipped out to the east, to Russia. And I guess go through quite a few prison camps until finally he landed at Don, Don is a river in Russia. There they put into coal mines to work the mines. Where my father was a white collared worker, he was just a regular guy. And course with no food and just living in the barracks in the cold, and no medical attention he just little by little he succumbed. Like this guy that wrote us the letter about him he said “In the last couple of days he just craved something sweet.” So, this guy he sacrificed his spoonful of sugar and shared it with him, so... And he was supposed to have come back, because he was no good anymore to them, he couldn't perform the job, so he was useless to them so they were 6 going to ship him back in a couple of days but he didn't make it, he just died. And this guy he said “Well, he was gone to work in the mines and when he came home that evening the bed was empty.” So that's what happened no news, nothing... formal or, just cramped underground, that's what he assumed, he died. But in the meantime of course, we went to our aunt and to Germany and she lived in Weimar then, like I said she was evacuated there, she worked there. That was the ring yeah, it was kind of the central part of Germany. And well we came by train and we tromped through the city and even the inhabitants of the city they recognized that we were refugees, you know, dragging our suit cases, and just dressed as warm as could be because when we left I remember I had on a dress, of course, pants were never existed then but I had a pair of them, must have been my fathers. I put on the dress, and the pants, and a couple of sweaters and a heavy winter coat just to keep warm, and boots. And so that's how we landed there in Germany. And my sister said to my aunt since she was an evacuee too, well she didn't have her own place, she lived in an attic in a house. He was a lawyer, but he was of course off to war. And the lady of the house with five little boys well, she let my aunt live there and of course we didn't even ask permission we just moved in with her. That was our roof over our head. We lived with my aunt until we finally had to split because her husband came home from war. And of course the first thing was to apply for ration tickets that we could live there, to get something to eat, and make friends and.... well we didn't stay long at this place. There was a neighbor's house very nice with two women; of course their men were all to war. And when my uncle came back they had a grocery store, a little one not like here, and they said “Well come and live with us.” And I guess in a way they were glad because they knew us not complete 7 strangers, you know, that we're assigned to them. So they gave us a room there. And we lived with them and we thought we were in paradise because like I said they had a grocery store and even though everything was rationed but they'd save for selling, let's say jam, that's what I remember. They got big buckets that they sold half a pound to this person, a half a pound that's what the ration was and we could scrape out the bucket. Oh that was just a bonus, that was just great! So once in a while we got... And then my sister made a friend with a gal, that they had a dairy store, so once in a while they had milk left over you know in quarters or so. We got a bonus there to. And my mother made, she always ask us, what do you want to eat today? I said chocolate soup. So of course her chocolate soup was… she would brown the flour, and put some milk to that that was given to us that was above our ration, and a crumb of sugar to it. Oh, that was the best chocolate soup I ever ate. And then we ate lots of greens. I don't even know what this is called, I think they were... markets twice a week the farmers came in with their produce it was something but like spinach but the leaves were bigger, and I can't think of the name for it was. But did we buy bags of this so-called spinach. And there, well like here the plastic bags, we didn't have that of course that was...everybody that went shopping they had their own private bags was like nets you know, like nets for fishing. And so it folded, you could put it in your purse it didn't take up space and you always had it handy in case you got something, and we always had that. And it always extended, it stretched you know. So Gerda and I, before we went to work, on those two market days we went for the green spinach or whatever it was. Oh we brought bags of them home. And my good old mother just cooked it, and cooked it, and cooked it, and we ate it, and we ate it, and was glad to have something to eat. I don't know how she 8 fixed it, but we had something to eat! And then I remember potatoes...well I was worried, what are we gonna eat? We are running out of potatoes. Oh, I don't know what I would have done without my mother; she always was such a supporter. She said “Don't worry, don't worry, we go to the farmers.” So once in a while, we walked to the farmers. Oh, it was farther than Stockton, six miles— ten miles let's say. We walk of course, no cars, and I don't know by magic, she had either candles, or soap, or whatever she was, or clothing from us, to barter with the farmers. And they said “Oh, potatoes.” So they said, “Oh go there, there that's the potatoes for the pigs, you can pick as much as you want.” So we went for the potatoes, just little ones because the big ones they used themselves. So we picked our nets full to haul them back that the ten miles the seven miles or whatever it was. But I was happy as a lark. Oh, we had something to eat, that was always my worry. And in fall I always like the windy days. We always checked the weather forecast but we always... “Oh, it's gonna be too windy let's go for a walk.” Because over there the farmers way back when had planted trees along their roads between the fields, and it was mostly fruit trees, apples or plums or whatever. And so when it was windy the wind shook it down and we went and picked it up and what a bonus— that was delightful, I always liked that. The worst thing, still hate it now, is after harvest we the people were allowed to go and clean the fields, and not the ears of the wheat, but each kernel. So we went there and pick the kernels one by one, by one. Aaaah! Well, luckily we were three of us so maybe we got a pound together. And then we would go to the miller and he'd ground it for us. Well I don't think he had shortage so he always gave us a good measure. I remember later I found a needle in the rain gutter— what a find! Or a button, man that was just a... Then later on 9 then we lived up the hill. It was kind of like you would call it the Government's Mansion. It was a beautiful view just like your dad's place here. Then down below that was a shopping center. There was a butcher and on certain days he prepared the sausages, I guess they had to boil 'em or cook 'em or however. And that was our ration time there. We took our big jugs of water— jugs about a gallon size— we went down and then Gerda had hers and I had mine so it was two of us. We went down there and got the broth. Well I guess they swished the sausages right through the water but it had some taste so that was a good day too. And I remember one day, we were standing in line, you always were standing in line, the siren came on… attack... and there was a cemetery across from us and just dug in there to hide. And there were trees so we thought well, hope they don't bomb us there but if not we are really close to the floor. EW: Did you live with a lot of different people throughout your time living in Germany? ES: Yeah. Yeah, we were always shuttled around from one room to the other ones. Well of course we weren't welcome, we can't blame the people because we were assigned one of their rooms and that were their houses. So, like I said, first we came to the attorney's place we lived there with my aunt. And then her husband came back we moved to another place and that was in fall. One day we were gonna go to the forest to pick mushrooms, to have something, food for winter. And we came home and we were stringing our mushrooms, we were cleaning our mushrooms, and the Russians walked in on us. They just threw us out! You're out! We need your place, we like you place, get out. So we went to another place and those people there again, no men but they had about three, four, five kids— we stayed with them. And well that means Gerda and I didn't feel it that much because we went to work in the morning and we were gone. But 10 my poor mother, she had to cook for us and share the cooking time with the owner of the house and for that matter the electricity was out so you just had certain hours when you could cook. And no electricity, you went to bed or whatever. Then there was another shift around, we were assigned to another place. Oh it was a beautiful home and the garden and we assigned the nursery. That was oh so white and clean and oh just sparkling but it was so cold! And the nursery, no furniture except the cradle, and good thing we didn't stay too long there. But I'll never forget it, all their names. And then finally, I don't know how we found it or if it was assigned to us, we went to a friend of one of the first people we lived with and there we were, we lived in the attic. And of course her husband was gone to war too, but that was ours! No stove, no oven just the heat from the cooking and that was just the hand cooking, like the outdoors like the hibachi or something. And I remember our bedroom all three of us slept in one room. Of course the beds were supplied by the owner, but it was so cold, the walls just sparkled with ice. You went to bed all dressed up. And sometimes we went to sleep...Gerda and I we just crawled together and... And then well that was what, the eighth of May the war was over '45 I think. No it couldn't have been '45, you'll have to look it up. The war was over, and the day before we heard the news, well there is a train on the tracks and it was bombed, and sugar spilled out. And of course we lived on the other side of the city, but we marched across town from one hill down to the railroads, it was way on the other. And sure enough there was sugar spilled, but the bees were all over— couldn't get. And we picked up sugar with dirt and ah! — What a trophy! That was the day before the war was over, and on May the eighth. But then before... wait— the Russians came in— yeah of course they were the ones that chased us place to place. And I could 11 see from the window that we were staying the Russians were quartered in a school, and I got up every night and I looked out the window to see if the Russians were gone. I just prayed for that. But they were still there. But then also on May the eighth the Americans moved in. Boy, it was so good to see them! And there were the black guys they were the nicest. Man, they threw us candy and friendly and... Oranges maybe once, chewing gum oh... So, the war was over. Well, life went on. But my sister through her friend— I don't know how that happened— anyway she met an American they were... a few Americans. Well it was still occupied by the Russians because that was the peace treaty declared that this part of Germany was gonna be under Russian rule. But there were a few Americans stationed there that had to patrol their telephone lines. And my sister met through her girlfriend an American. Wow! Now that was a gift of heaven. So, she had an American boyfriend. And in the meantime I went to work were she was working too, it was kind of like a health chamber let's call it. And that office was bombed out, it didn't have an entrance or just walked in through the doors and it didn't have any walls. But there too, there was such a nice lady that I worked with— sat with— and she always had a piece of toast. She made the toast right there at the office at our break time. She gave me a piece of toast, just of course dry already. Too bad I don't remember her name, but ah, what a treat. But anyway, through...oh and I quit my job there because my school friend, she contacted me somehow or other. She was going to an interpreter school in Leipzig, that was the next big town, and she kind of invited me. If I don't want to, come along too. Well, I said, “Well why not? Nothing better to do, you know?” So I had to get from home and to live on your own on just one ration ticket was hard. You bought the bread that you got on your ticket, and I always— let's say it had to last you 12 eight days— so, I always cut it up in slices right away that I had one slice for each day, not too much. And the people we lived with— that's my school friend and I— they of course they knew friend farmers and they had some potatoes stored in the cellar, and we go down for our coal that was rationed too, I stole a couple of them. That helped us over there. But anyway I was going there to the interpreter school and I think… well I went, must have been from fall to spring and I came home for Christmas that year and well, Gerda said “I know an American and I have to go, I'm invited to a Christmas party but I'm,” she said “I'm not going because you're home on vacation for Christmas.” So I guess she contacted her boyfriend and he said “Well, bring her along,” you know. And that is how I met my husband to be. So of course I finished my schooling there. But in the meantime he was transferred to Leipzig to where I was going to school there, and we saw each other of course. And I was visiting him and I learned of cornflakes! Oh boy, what a treat! That was my first introduction. And I don't know how long that went on. But anyway he was going to be transferred to the west, to the American zone from the Russian zone and of course I was heartbroken. What am I going to do, what now? So he said, “Well, why don't you come across the border? So why not...” Well he was gone, and I went home. I guess school was out, so I just got ready to cross the border. Of course you walked across the border because the train stopped— here was the border let's say, and from the Russian's side they stopped right there the American's stopped right here, nobody crossed the border that was off limits. So I walked across the border. It was a rainy day and it was good it was raining because the Russian guards they tried to stay dry, they stood in their guard houses. I followed a boy, that's how I found my way otherwise I wouldn't have known. So on the other side I finally got a 13 train and I came to Wurzburg— that's where he was stationed. And there, he had told me to— he had met with some German people and he gave me their address that I could go to them, and how I could contact him. So I went there and when I went to that, it was early in the morning, matter of fact I still sat outside because it was six o'clock or four o'clock or so— I couldn't disturb the people that early. So I waited outside and I finally knocked on the door. There was a voice, “Okay, wait just a minute,” they knew of him and I guess they knew of me. But the lady she had to clean up first, give herself a shower, a sponge bath you know, because the no shower even the water was rationed, so it took her awhile. But she finally let me in and I guess a guest room, a children's room or what so, I was assigned to that so I had a bed! Then after duty or so I guess, Willie came over and so yabby dabby doo! And that was close to the camp where the soldiers lived, so next day or whenever it was I went over there to look for work, because without no work you don't get ration tickets and that of course was… Matter of fact I even brought some potatoes across the border you know, carrying... couldn't impose on those people there to that I walk in on them that they have to share their bread and potatoes with me. So I got a job there. I guess they hoped, they thought because I had been going to the interpreter school that I could take short hand, and he tried me out but I don't think it worked. I'm glad, because I would have gone to court proceedings you know and take it all down. Yipes! So anyway, from there we arranged another room— of course it was always just rooms— it was a kitchen and there was a cot that my bed, that was their kitchen they cooked there she would walk in and cooked. One time he brought me bacon, and there was no fridges or ice boxes. She had a pantry with an open window that was to cool. I put my— and I saved my bacon I 14 stretched it— it was getting bad already. And she took a couple of slices because I could smell it you know, but I stretched it so much it was getting bad already and the mold on it… But from there on, it materialized that getting married. So we put in the papers. But, okay, the papers went smooth enough, but I needed a visa to come here. A visa on the other hand is a permission to be let into the States and time was getting close, I don't know whenever it was September, and I didn't have my visa yet. Well of course I was despaired that that was going to be the end of the line, never see him again... But he came up with the bright idea, we gonna travel to Munich, that where the paperwork office was handled. And traveled by railroad, course everything was cramped we had to ride standing up there but that was okay because out there… And we went to the office, the consulate or whatever it was called, and the girl was so friendly she helped us out and the guy the American G.I. said “Oh we can't do that because look at the stack we have to handle and you're down there.” But anyway he broke down. So, then there was the big “Ah!” I was free you know, relieved. And so we got married officially you know, even in church, by church and by civilian people, German people, but we had our papers. So then it was time to move. Well we were stationed here in Wurzburg, but we had to get close to the— cause we were coming by ship— we had to go to the North Sea, to Bremerhaven that's where we had to load the ship there. So, we were quartered in well— we were always separated, you know. He stayed in a military quarter and I was hotel or whatever it was and on the ship too, he stayed with the guys and I was there in the, whatever it's called, the stateroom. And we were coming over and I got so sea sick that… Then he cared for me, he brought some saltines. It was supposed to take my seasickness away. Well, it helped me, he said 15 “You have to eat something.” Ugh, and so I went to the dining room, I want some potatoes, he brought me out this big plate a couple of potatoes nothing but dried potatoes, looked good. But before he brought it I was back at the railing. Oh boy! But I came back, I guess I downed it and somehow or other made it. So we landed in New York, and there again he stayed with the military and I was in some quarters. But he got leave, we went to see the Empire State Building and the Statue of Liberty and— what is it the main drag of New York? And so the vendors on the street and that was just an eye opener, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then he was, beforehand already I guess it was supposed to be made by the military, the transportation to his home base. And I said, well what did I know about New Mexico where it is, I said “I want to see the country at the same time I will never have another chance like this.” So I decided for a bus ride. It was a bus ride all right; on and on and on and on. But then I was already pregnant of course with Richard. My feet were swelling, but to see the country how it changed, the scenery, the housing, the people, the colors, the growth, the trees— it was just amazing! I never regretted it. It was just alright. But then landing in Santa Fe, that's the capital of New Mexico, and there we stopped at a hotel. Well it was all paid by the military. So we slept there and then the next morning I guess he had contacted his folks, they were there the next day to welcome us and I met them the first day. And then to go to El Rito, to his hometown. Well Father came with his car that was bought with his money and so it was still driving, I don't know thirty-six miles or more or whatever it was, but to come to that— that was an eye opener— adobe houses! And, well I was welcome by, well by the whole family. His sisters and relatives and, well it was overwhelming. Couldn't remember who was who anyway but, no electricity and no running water, and 16 an outhouse— that was a slap in the face. But what do you do, you're already...? So, we stayed there at the folks' place because they were working at the school and Willie went to school through the G.I. program or whatever it was called, he was learning in school, he was learning carpentry and yet he was being paid at the same time now, hundred twenty dollars a month. So we lived from that, so we had to circle it, so we went one time beginning of the month, went to the grocery store, bought potatoes, beans, coffee, sugar and good thing we— I don't think— we had to pay electricity or any other, I think or car, maybe the car payment was ours, only payment we had to make. And then later his cousin decided to look for work some other place there because it was scarce and he picked Utah and he invited Willie if he wants to come along. So I guess he said yeah. So he came here with Dan to Salt Lake and I guess the next day or so he came to look for work here in TAD I think it was called, and he was hired right there and then as a laborer. But, have to get on somehow or other, the pay was pittles probably but we were overjoyed. A week or sometime later he came and pick me up from El Rito. By then we had three kids already. We even put the tricycle, we tied them on the car on the top we brought them all here. And the first place we found was a dump in Salt Lake where they had the coal dust. Ah, man, the kids always looked like chimney sweeps everyday you had to wash them down because they were black. But then, we got housing here in TOD we moved here and we continued from here we start looking around for houses and then we bought a house. We bought the one on West Vine, and that's the end of the story we're still here. EW: I'm going to take you back to Poland. It has been said that the Poles believed that the German invasion was intended from the beginning as a war of extermination. Is this 17 how you saw it? It was the Russians that took your father but he still disappeared and so did your maid. Were there a lot of people around you that disappeared? ES: Extermination? I never thought of extermination! The extermination I think it was more toward the Jews. No, they threw a lot of people in jail or so. But to our city Lodz that was considered the German-Jewish town that was just like Tooele {thumbs down gesture}. But they were very wealthy, you know, they were prosperous. The Jews always got ahead, they always found a way and you have to give them credit there. The other day I bumped into Fiddler on the Roof, now that's back home again. Yeah, it's the poverty there like he was the milkman, we still had the milkman coming around for us. But even if they had to scrape, they got ahead. EW: The German officials decreed that schooling of Polish children should end with elementary education. Did your schooling change? ES: Well I think my name Schlief— that's German means slept, past time of sleep slept— Schlief and my mother were German so we were considered German. All the people there, they got their identification card. It was a booklet, and by that you could identify, they were classified. Now ours was the blue card— that was the Germans. And then there were green ones, I guess were Polish, I don't know what the Jewish had. But you were identified by that. And since we were German we had German schools, privileges. Like you said the Polish, I don't know if they had higher education, they just had their schools. They had to go their elementary schools, yes, everybody had to go to schools. But they were just the elementary, the bottom just read and write. And the Jews, I think that… can't say about the Jews. I think they educated their own kids because, like I said, they were... And there too, already in our times yet, we still lived at home lived in... 18 But the Jews were gathered up and they were put into ghettos. And I remember there was a ghetto way there at the end of town and when you had to go some certain place there the street car was going this way, the street car line, there was the ghetto and there were the Jews. You could smell them. You could smell them they had the garlic and I think their kosher food, you could smell them. I even smell them here in Montreal when I went to visit Gerda they had a certain, very strong scent, so you know. And they were so poor too. There they were standing on the fences looking at you as you were driving through in the street cars. In the beginning some people were throwing them packages down, but later the fence was so high you couldn't throw anything anymore. So they must have had a… and of course they were marked with the David star, they all had to have their David star sewn on their clothing. So, they lived in the ghettos. I don't know how much food they had. EW: So being a German you had more privileges? ES: Yeah. Like I was telling you too there of our butter lady, she had a daughter and then in the war they had to take German in school, but she was Polish. And so, course German wasn't very easy for her so I had to tutor her you know, to teach her I don't know, writing or speaking and understanding and so. And we helped them too because she was our butter lady. I remember we took in her feather beds to save it for them, that it won't be taken away from— well they couldn't have been, everything could have been confiscated from them— and this way if they were with us, well they were safe. Afterwards, after it was all over we could give it back to them, but it never came to that. I don't know what happened them. They got rid of their feather beds, I don't know where. So it was… it was misery, yeah. 19 EW: Have you ever been back to Lodz? Do you know what happened to your property? ES: No. Oh no, the property just evaporated. Like I said we had a car, matter of fact we were considered upper middle class because we had a season ticket for the theater so we were just up in the clouds. And we had a car and the car was parked, the garage was at the factory where my father was working. And a driver, I bet it scared him to death to drive, he always just parked it after the weekend and left it there, covered it up and it couldn't get dirty and dusty. And then of course the Germans discovered it, they blamed him they said he was hiding the car so they just confiscated it, took it away from him and that was it. And our savings account, our bank statement they just confiscated it. EW: So your family lost everything? ES: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's it from home we just walked out with a suitcase. And sometimes I think of my mother, how she must have felt to give up everything like that because we had a hand woven rug and oh, it was that thick and we had a set of china ware, silverware and she always said to both of us, “You have to decide who takes the rug”— it was a big one, the biggest— “or the china ware, you know, that's gonna be yours.” Well we didn't have to worry about that. So, no to give up, that's what I mean I think of her, how it must have been for her and to go into nowhere without a husband. But the good part was that she had a sister that we knew where to go that we had somebody because so many of them, the people from there they just start walking that just was what they called a track. And then they pushed their baby carriages full of nothing through the snow. Like my coworker, she saved her tennis racket, so see? Who would think, what good was it for, what would it had her? But that's how headless you 20 were, you didn't think of what to take. To take warm clothing or extra shoes or anything like this, you were just lost. So we were very fortunate that we had a place where to go to. So all in all we were blessed all the way out. EW: When you lived in Germany you said you were assigned places to live. How did that work? Who was assigning them for you, the government? ES: Well there wasn't much of a government, let's say City Fathers. Well they must— I don't know how it went about. But let's say like here, we are the property owners and we have a spare room, let's say two spare rooms. So there is a family that just barged in, they don't know what to do with them— you go there and you go there— you know, so you were just assigned. You didn't know the people, you didn't know where an empty place was, you were just assigned. You lived there. EW: They tried to help you then? ES: Well, yeah, they tried to put a roof over you... that was a social people let's say, whatever. The people lived there of course they didn't welcome you, because well you were just a nonsense just a pain in the back, you know. But we always met good, friendly, helpful people. But then on the other hand too— what I heard it, never seen it— but the Germans, they rounded up lots of people of the country that they occupied, the Polish, and Czechs, and they took them as prisoners of war. They shipped them to Germany where they had to work in factories to make ammunition or whatever. So they were de-patriated or whatever you call it, they were just sent into camps for that purpose. They tore families apart and they had it rough, yeah. But there again, I considered myself a gypsy, because in Poland we were called Schwab’s. That's on account of the Schwab’s— the settlers that came in ages ago— and the Germans... So 21 we were in Poland, we were the Schwab’s. In Germany we were the D.P.'s, the Displaced People. I came here to New Mexico I was the gringa, and here I'm the— what do you call it? —can't think of it. Well it makes no difference. So anyway I'm just… never a real foot hold. I don't belong, I always am considered something else, looked down on, called names, you know. Gentile, gentile, here I am a gentile. EW: You mentioned you needed jobs to get ration tickets. What kind of jobs did you get? ES: Well, back home in Poland, well that was already under the German occupation, I was working. And there again always good old Gerda, she was working for the Health Department, and her boss was, his name was Rot Haut. Now Rot Haut if you translate, it means red skin. In other words, an Indian, in Germany, and how. But anyway he was a volunteer working for the German Red Cross, and the boss, and they just got together there twice a week I think they came to the office of the German Red Cross. And the German Red Cross needed workers, so I guess she must have suggested me. Anyway I was hired to work at the German Red Cross. I was an office... sending bills out, sometimes I am thinking back now, we had the ambulance for the city and of course we had to bill the people that had to be transferred into the hospital. And I faithfully sent out the bills and the late notices and I bet the Polish people were so poor they could, I think it was the eighth March that they had to pay and I passed that, and so it hurts me in my soul now, you know. And so that's where I worked there and we had a habit there working, there were just two girls and she was a repatriate too, she was transported here from Lithuania, no from Estonia, she was a DP too. So anyway it was just the two girls working there in the office and the bosses just came in twice a week and in the evening after their official work was finished they came here because that was volunteer 22 work. So it was, can't beat that work. So that's how we got our ration cards. I can't tell you how much we were assigned because my mother took care of that. She had to go and pick 'em up to a certain office that was every, I think at first it was every eight days, every week, and then they stretched it to ten days. But it was very minimal because I remember when we were already in Germany and I was telling you about the sparkling walls— she got up, at this time it was colder than the dickens— she got up early, early in the morning. She went to stand in line for horse meat, because horse meat you got a double portion. Let's say if you got 10 ounces of meat— I don't think it was that much— 10 ounces of beef or pork or whatever, it was mostly just sausages, and you got it for the horse meat it was 20 ounces, so it was double that much. And she didn't mind standing there in the cold and you couldn't say sweating it out, freezing it out, just for that benefit, yeah. And that's it. 23 Abstract: This is an oral history interview with Erika Schilef Sisneros. It is being conducted on September 27, 2008 at Erika Schilef Sisneros's home residence and concerns Erika Schilef Sisneros's life story. The interviewer is Erika Sisneros-Wood. EW: I am Erika Sisneros-Wood. I am here in Tooele Utah with my grandmother and I am going to do an oral history interview of her life. You are? ES: I am Erika Schilef Sisneros. I'm Erika Wood Sisneros's grandmother and I was there, tried to help out when she was born so... EW: When were you born? ES: I was born… well from what I always heard I was born March 4th, 1924. But I guess in the good old times the people weren't so aware of their months, numbers. Anyway it was put down as April the 4th. So it's four, four, twenty-four. That's easy to remember, so I go by that. EW: Any reason why? ES: No, no, like I said the way I figure it, it’s because the scribe who was putting it down in the book, I suppose he probably was told March, but he didn't know exactly what March was. March was the fourth. That's my excuse, I don't have any other way why, it's not done on purpose or anything but all my documents are April the 4th. EW: How come you kept it in April instead of just writing everything as March? ES: Yeah well, I just heard it like this from the beginning and we always went on from there, yeah. 24 EW: Where were you born? ES: I was born in Lodz, Poland. I was born through my mother that was from Berlin, Germany and my father that was from Lodz. His family was all there, but he was in Berlin for studies and that's how he met my mother. And then well, the way developed— I don't even know where they married, I think in Germany, I don't have papers. But they were married, and of course he brought her to Poland and there, too— poor thing, now I am thinking of it— she didn't know of the language or anything either, so must have been hard for her to the switch over. Well, she made it. And for that matter, I wasn't supposed to be born because my older sister Gerda, my mother had trouble with having her at birth so she was recommended not to have any more children. But there I was. EW: So what did your parents do in Lodz? ES: Well, my mother was a housewife of course and my father was working as an accountant for the family firm. They had a spool factory there in Poland. And since it was in a textile city they had lots of spools the big ones like, you know, sewing or the big ones for machines or factories. So that was our heating system, we burned the wood in the stove, in the kitchen. You had to be very careful because it burned high and hot, so you had to be careful not to burn it. And then of course in winter we used it in the stove in the oven for the rooms, so that warmed it up. It was nice and clean, smelled good. And there at the factory my uncle with his son, my cousin, when we were invited there when we got together for family occasion. I always loved to go there because they had a big yard where they stored all their lumber. And I even have a picture of my grandmother standing in front of that and it always smelled so good. And they had a 25 little— they have it here for train inspections on the railroad— this cart whatever, it’s called, you know, that you... EW: Oh, yeah, where you pump it up and down and that makes it go. ES: Yeah, yeah. Well they had one there in the yard I guess to bring the lumber up to the factory to work it. We kids just loved to play. We weren't allowed to because it was dangerous, you know. So we went up and down, it was fun. And we played hide and seek in there. Oh, it was great. EW: In the lumber? ES: Yes, yeah, yeah. There were big stacks and it was nice and high all around, it was just great, yeah. EW: What was your childhood home like? ES: Well, first when my sister and I were born, we were born in the city on the fifth floor way up high on Nawrot Four, I can remember that. And I remember playing in the yard with the doorman. Over there every house had a doorman that had to open and lock the door. And he had a little son about our age so we played there, wasn't much because it was cemented and not garden but just rough. But we had a playmate, I don't remember much of it. And then I don't know when it was… Anyway my folks, they moved to kind of outside the city. A new development that was called Karalow, we always called it the colony. And well, the housing was bad after we discovered everybody complained about the structure. But it was nice there living outside, we had a garden, we had trees. My aunt loved to come to our place to see us and she always took armloads full of flowers home with her. She just loved to come and pick it and spruce up her place. So we had 26 plenty of garden and I always— well I wasn't in charge but I took, Gerda too but not that much— had to water the plants here, you know. And we had some in four corners. We had those almond blooming bushes that were pretty, pink in spring. Then we had an apricot tree. Now an apricot over there that is something exotic. I don't know, no we did have a couple of fruit, but I don't think it ever came to ripening because it never got that warm there. And then it was a young tree too, so it didn't bare much. So when you discovered a fruit on it, it was a big occasion. And we had in the corner there too; we kind of had a chicken coop. We had about, I don't know how many chickens, and they gave us the eggs. And I just loved to go and gather the eggs. And one morning my mother wasn't there when I was bigger already. I went to gather the eggs and put it in my apron, and it was about a dozen or so which was unusual, so I showed it to my sister. I opened the apron, "Look how many eggs I collected!" and it dropped and all the eggs they fell on the steps. And I didn't know eggs are that— fat content or whatever it is— but anyway it left a mark there forever. Yeah, so that was just very memorable. I didn't do it again after that. But we had a lovely childhood. We had a church close by, let's put it this way, it was a schoolhouse, but on Sundays it was a church. The big church, the cathedral, was in town. And that was a long way to go by streetcar and all that, especially for Christmas. We always went there for Christmas. And even the street, it was called Evangelicka. It means Protestant, you know, it was real unusual for the… But I remember I loved to go there for Christmas. It was so festive, maybe it was snowing. But then there were trumpeters way up on the tower and they were playing the Christmas tunes. Ah, it was just really memorable. It was just a big occasion you know, it just took your heart. And to this big cathedral in town, we school kids were always 27 taken there for every holiday. They lined us up, two-by-two, of course from grade one up to twelve, and you had to march. And not just our school, but there were about two or three. The other one across the street was another German private school, but they had boys and girls. And of course it was a big occasion— boys, you know— and lots of ogling going on and all that. But it was always fun. And then they have here the main drag, well we called it Piotrkowska. Piotrkowska means from trudging, you know, going on foot. There were no cars, no nothing. And then we always said "We gonna go to Piotrkowska.” Of course viewing the boys, that was always…. And, well, confirmation time, I don't remember when it was, when you were fifteen or seventeen, somewhere around there, we went to confirmation. Now that's of course a religious rite. And since we lived kind of far out of town, too far from the church, we stayed with my grandmother overnight. After school we went and stayed with her and always got a good meal. Her maid, oh I loved her. Melida was her name, she always fixed up the specialties for us. It was the little meat pierogy and they were so greasy with tallow, it was just running, oozing with sauerkraut. And with Gerda there, we always tried to beat one another, who could eat more. And so we stayed there for that or if we had any other occasion, any other appointments in the afternoon we’d rather stay with my grandmother or even stayed overnight with her. She had a spare bed. Oh, the feather bed it was just delightful. I have to tell you that, she had a big apartment and there was one room, we always called it the cold room, was kind of like a pantry. But anyway this Melida and I think even her maids before that, they were preparing the feathers for pillows or pillow beds. You laugh your head off if you hear that. You take each feather and just pull it so you get it off the hard stem. You just get the fluff, the down you know. Can you imagine, 28 feather by feather, and she sat there I guess for months. And then the feathers were all around her, all stuck to her. You always closed the door after you because it went flying all over the house. But it was just so nice. EW: So you mentioned that you went to church at the school near your house. Did you go to school there, or did you go to school somewhere else, further away? ES: Yeah well, our school was, like I said we kind of lived outside of town, on the outskirts of town let's say, and our school was in the middle of town. And therefore for every holiday— I don't think we had as many holidays as here— but for every holiday the first thing it was you came to school, reported in, and then you lined up and marched to church, and then you were dismissed. It was your holiday too, so… But it was always very festive. EW: Was your school coed; was it boys and girls or just girls? ES: No it was just a strictly girls school. We started out in the other German private school that had the boys too, but of course we were separated by walls so there was no contact whatsoever. We started going there, but my father took us out, it was a bigger school than the one we went to. My father took us out when Gerda was in the third grade and I was in the first grade because they were teaching French in the higher grades and my father said, "Ah, French is an obsolete language already. Nobody uses it anymore." So he put us in where they were teaching English in our school. I remember Mrs. Radler, when we started taking English in the sixth grade. And Mrs. Radler she was a blonde gal, and she was always, always had a smile on her face. If you always see a smiley face, beginning to irritate you. Oh, we had a teacher for each subject, we never went out to other classrooms like they do it here, from what I hear. We always 29 stayed on our room and the other teacher came in. So we had German, we had Polish, we had history, geography, phys ed and home ec. And then later in the sixth grade we got English, Latin, physics, chemistry, sewing, and I don't remember what else. EW: How many languages did they teach you? ES: We had always lots of homework. Not like here, the kids get off every Wednesday, so they're more off here than in school. But we always had lots of homework. And then I remember one time, when we always got assigned a topic; what to write about, you know, essays I guess you call it here. But this one time our teacher told us "It's open, you pick what you want to write about." That was even worse, but I picked spring. And boy, I got so emotional about the air and the flowers just bursting out of the ground, everything is getting green and oh I was in seventh heaven. And of course I turned it in and we got the report back, I didn't get a grade. So I went to the teacher and asked her "How come I didn't get a grade?" "Oh, you didn't write it." Boy was I crushed. I never got a grade for that, and must have been one of my highlights, but I never got a grade. But it was mighty mushy, mighty sentimental you know, but I never got a grade and she didn't believe me. That’s what hurts the most, you know. EW: She didn't think you wrote your paper? ES: No, no. So I had to let it go. And I liked our Latin teacher. He was the same teacher for physics and for chemistry. He, like I said that started in the sixth grade, and he called us Miss Schilef. He didn't call us Erika, Miss Schilef. Boy, did we feel big, you know, grown up. And he always corrected our Latin accent! We always pronounced it wrong, but what did we know? And he was good, he knew. And I guess at home, he and his wife, they spoke Russian. He had a daughter that was four classes up higher with my cousin, 30 so he was just a real smart guy. Yeah, he was just alright. He had such short fingers. Albrechtus, we called him Albrechtus. We all had good teachers. Our history teacher was a tall gal. She always had flat shoes, no heels because she was so tall. And then she must have had long hair because she wore it as a braid around her head like a crown; that was just great. She really made it interesting and nice. And then our German teacher, she made us read plays. She assigned every girl as an actor, you know, and we had to produce the play. And I remember one time I was the Black Knight, I don't remember the play anymore. And it was my time to say my few lines and I had my mouth full. I guess I must have been hungry. Anyway, she made fun of it, more than right. Well, they had the Black Knight and then there was his name, and I was waiting for the name so I didn't see it, he was coming up and then he was converted to the Black Knight, so I took a bite of my lunch, so I had my mouth. My Polish teacher, everybody was scared stiff of her. She had the German name, Miss Stark; Starkowna in Polish. And one time she brought some pictures of our city into the classroom and of course our city had lots and lots of chimneys because it was industrial, you know. And she picked out my friend Marga Binder. She called her up and she said to show her the pictures, "What do you see on the pictures?" And that poor thing was just petrified, she couldn't come up with the chimneys, that is what the teacher wanted to hear, and she couldn't and we couldn't prompt her, we couldn't tell because that would have been even more disastrous. Well, good thing the bell rang and the lesson was over. Another time, I don't know how I got the guts with her, it was the first April and I was sitting on the first row in the front, so I was always supposed to go out into the hallway and close the window about half way. And well the other ones kind of egged me on, I should play 31 a trick on her. I fell for it. I said “Well, you call her out,” so when I went out to close the window I came in and I said "Miss Stark you are wanted in the office." So she went. And she came back furious— oh, spitting fire! And she explained why because she had an April Fool’s Day, but she had a sickness or something in the family so when she hear the telephone she of course jumped. And there I sat, wet as a poodle, crying and trying to apologize and she said it’s alright, misunderstanding. But like I said, I don't even know how I got up the guts to do that because I was always very meek. I just went along, not that I started anything like that. But I made it. Oh boy, yeah. EW: So you only have the one sibling, Gerda. ES: Yes. EW: Did you two get along well? Did you have a good relationship? ES: Oh yeah, yeah. She was two classes— well two years— higher than me. Course she was always in charge, was the oldest one. But Gerda was a flirt. Yeah, she always had boyfriends in school already. In summer when we went, not far from us there was a sporting club if that’s what you want to call it, there was a swimming pool. You could go and sunbathe, exercise and what not. She always had a flock of boyfriends around her. But I was always the homebody, let's say, and she was well, the princess. What's the fairytale? Aschenbrodel. Well anyway, when we were left alone, when we were older of course, sometimes my folks went in summer on their treatment, they went to a spa you know, where they had a hot bath, a mud bath or whatnot. So like I said we were older by then already, they could leave us alone. But I was always in charge of the house. I went shopping, and cooking whatever there was I guess just warming up stuff like this, and see to cleaning the house. Gerda was always great at straightening out the fringes, 32 she loved that, and dusting. Good thing I hate dusting, I still hate to dust. Then one time we were already older, I remember I was going to the business school that was way out there, and we needed some bread at home and there was a bakery and the streetcar stopped here. I was waiting for the streetcar to make another stop, so I went in there, and our bread were round like a chair seat you know, that size. So I just needed half a loaf of bread, I wasn't going to run through town with a loaf of bread, there was no plastic bags then. Anyway I stashed it in my satchel. When I got home it was flat as a pancake but we ate it, and we made it yeah, yeah. And especially when we were smaller— not my father he was kept on working— but we were my mother, Gerda, and I on a summer vacation we went to a resort. In the beginning we went out and had to get out of the hot city and we went and lived with the farmers, that was always fun. But I was always scared of the pigs, they had the wire through the nose you know that they weren't supposed to dig. The way they squealed, oh! Or the geese, when they came running man, they were tough. I always ran, yeah! But then when the farmers were cooking the teensy weensy potatoes for the pigs, I always went over there, little girl, with my skirt open, picked out the, the biggest potatoes out of the pot and went home. We had them for supper with butter, that was good. Yeah, and then later, when we were bigger we went into the mountains, into the Carpathian Mountains. That’s where the Pope John II, he loved it there, it was a place to love. There again we lived with the mountain people and they had animals too, you know. So this one, they had goats, and I was romping around there, and there was this goat. Well, I wasn't gonna go around the goat, there was the little walk. I was gonna go straight there, the goat could get out of my way. Ha! He kicked me and I flew! Then I always avoided him. But they had a well. 33 Oh, that was the best, coldest water there was. They even had some little fishes I guess to keep it clean. That was the best, better than the ice water here. And there were some neighborhood kids I remember. We had bought some chewing gum and they always came in a packet of three. I guess red, green, and blue, or whatever it was, it was in the packet. So I opened it, I offered it to one of the kids, a boy. I don't think he knew any better, just to pick one. He took all three! Oh, I was crushed. Well like I said that was into the mountains. Then sometimes we went north to the Baltic Sea. And there we went either to the fishermen we lived with them, and they were smoking the fish, you know. That was nice too, it was kind of rough going. No luxury, but that was nice there I like that too, yeah. And then there again going to the sea, and the Baltic when you look it up there was Zoppott, but now the Poles took it over again. But Zoppott was a resort place and they had an opera, an open air opera in the woods that you could hear the echo. I remember my mother went there, she liked it there. I remember one time she went to there and we girls stayed home and we dressed up in her clothes. I had her long— well for her, it was too long for me— a long dress and her high heel shoes and her fur fox… But I stepped on her dress and I tore it. So we quickly took it up and hung it up and went to bed! But she must have discovered it sooner or later, but anyway. I liked it there, that was a German place, that was a resort. They had a pier, a walk on the sea. Oh it was long, boardwalk. We walked mostly in the evening, that was our outing, our exercise. Oh, that was nice to walk there, the wind blowing. Then a certain time I was eight or nine they had a show. There was a fountain there and they turned it on at this time and they put on all the different colors on you know, it changed like in circles or so. And there was a ballerina, a dancer, and she was just pirouetting there in her little 34 tutu you know. I don't know how she didn't get wet. But I like to watch that, it was so festive, so beautiful. And they had the best bakers— the aroma when it was coming from the bakers— ah! Still makes me weak to think of it. That was great, yeah. EW: I know that your father owned a car. How old were you were when he owned it? ES: Well, I don't know when it was. EW: Cars were pretty rare when he had his car weren't they? ES: Yeah. My aunt and her husband came to visit us one time, one spring, and they had a car and they had a Fiat. And they had the frog there in front of the grill. The first time I saw it I thought it was a live one, but it was just pinned on. Anyway when they came I think the men must have talked or my uncle must have persuaded my father that's it. So anyway he got one, was a nice sports car, it was an Adler, means an eagle. It was just a four-seater but my father always liked to take neighbors or friends along, so we always crammed in there, squeeze. And my father was no driver, no mechanic. Well, it wasn't good to have a car there because the roads were nothing but cobblestones. Well not like the cobblestones you see here, they’re smooth like the Romans are, round like Germans or Belgium, they had smooth rocks and they were all even. But no, these ones were cobblestones you know, so every half was sticky out and so it was bumpity, bumpity, bumpity, bump… yeah. And he always took us out Saturdays, afternoons I guess he was off work. He took us out to the country for a picnic, or a new sight, or the forest, or whatever. But then coming home, he always needed help. There were no street lights, you know, there were policemen in the middle of the road and they were directing the traffic. So, "Come and help me, watch him, what does he say? Can I go now or do I have to wait?" And of course after traveling those roads there was always 35 something wrong with the car, always a noise, something loose so he always had to take it in the mechanic on Monday. And of course he kept the car in a shed, in the garage at the factory where he worked. And he just covered it up with newspaper, and tarpolios or blankets so it doesn't get dusty, and then when the Germans came and they took over, "You're hiding the car, you're hiding the car!" because it was all covered. Of course they took it away and we never got any compensation or anything so, it was gone. But it was nice while it lasted, yeah. EW: Cars were, like you said, very rare. You would have to be well-off to afford one. ES: My uncle, he was the rich one. We always called him the millionaire. Well he was the director at his working place. And he had what I would call now a limousine, you know, he had a chauffeur and the car was a regular looking car, but there was some contraption that you could open the seat, flip it back, and there was an extra seat in the middle of the car, you know. There was the back seat and then you could flip those seats because that was floor. I guess they probably have it now here, the modern car you know. And then you had a spare seat, then here was a spare seat, then there was another row there, you could sit with the chauffer. And we had an uncle, well family they lived another city thirty five miles away from us. And there for birthdays or other occasions and so the whole family was invited, we always got together for that. And so the chauffer came for us. Ah, yeah, that was just neat. Like I said he always flipped the seats back and he took us home. The kids had to go back home and go to sleep early and I guess he went for them later on. But I always like that. Yeah, that was not a place for cars it was— I think the main street maybe— was paved that it had asphalt or so. But otherwise, it was prohibited. 36 EW: When you got older, because of the war you moved from Poland to Germany. ES: Well yeah, when the war broke out we stayed there and I kept on work. Well first I continued going to school of course, I went to the business school. And then I went to work for the Red Cross. But then it was getting dangerous, the news wasn't too good and my father said "Well, you females better get out of here." And since my mother had family in Germany, she had a sister there, she was evacuated from Berlin but she was safe too, on account of the bombing. So we started off for Weimar. That was in…'45, '46. Because the Russians were just getting too close you could see the artillery fire, even from our windows, we didn't have any more windows. Good thing we lived close enough to the railroad station so we just had to go around the corner more or less. And we took our suitcases. Well, we lived from suitcases already, was all packed. And my mother she knew already, at least she took some provisions along, she had some bread, I don't know whatever. Well bread was the main thing. And what usually just took a few hours just took us twenty-four hours to get to Weimar, to where my aunt lived. We gonna be safe there. EW: Why did it take so long? ES: Well, we had to stop for— well, I don't know. We had to stop I guess to check the rails and then to take water, it was still the old way; had to let the people off to make pee. And I remember we stopped in one place, must have been a bigger city, and my mother went out to the railroad station and when she came back she had— I don't know if it was hot water or hot coffee, she had lied about it. She said she had a son there, he was a soldier that got wounded and she needed a hot drink, so that was our hot drink at least on the way. We landed in Weimar. Well, we had to walk through the whole town 37 because the rail station was here and my aunt lived there. She lived kind of up on a hill where governor's mansion was. Well she lived with somebody, she didn't live in the house she just was quartered there. But anyway, some years ago my mother had given us as Christmas presents a scarf for skating. It was a scarf, mitts and socks, with yellow, orange and blue colors. Anyway was vivid, vivid color, and the scarf, we sewed it together, we used it as hat cover, keep us nice and warm. But it was so vivid that people later, years later they said, "Were you the refugees that we saw coming in, the first refugees coming to Weimar, in the get-up?" They recognize us by whatever we wore, yeah. And there to my aunt lived, well she was evacuated from Berlin— because that was bombed all the time— to Weimar, and she was assigned to a family and the husband was at war, of course he was a soldier. And that family there was a woman with five little kids, boys. Well in the beginning she had a maid, somebody to help her, but then they took her away too. So then every night we listen to the radio, what they announced there. The bombers were coming our way or if they were going straight east to Berlin to bomb it there. So you had to get ready to go into the cellar, to the bunker if you had a bunker. So we always tried to help the five kids there you know, get them dressed. I tried to help the lady too, when she didn't have the maid anymore. I gave her a hand to iron the kids’ clothing. And like I said they were all boys so I ironed their pants just straight flat, didn't know anything about crease or anything. I learned. Yeah, yeah. EW: How long were you in Germany? ES: Oh, well all the rest of the war and from, well let's say '45, when we came there, and peace broke out that was on the eighth of May, it was a nice day, yeah. But then by then the Russians had taken over. Oh, that was the worst part of it. To see the looks of 38 them, the uniform they wore, the boots they were not clean. What a difference between them and the Americans, they were sharp. But they threw us out one time too, of where we were living there. They liked it there, so they just walked in and tell us “Well, we take over.” But we lived in Germany from '45 until I met Willie, through Gerda, this was in '46 I think. And then he was transferred to the western zone, to Frankfurt or somewhere there. So I crossed the border, black like the color, without papers, without permission, without anything, and I landed there in Wurzberg where Willie was stationed. From there I worked for the Americans, then we start getting the papers rolling and then it was approved, we got married and I landed here. EW: How did you meet Willie? ES: Well, through Gerda actually. Well, through some friends she met. There were— I don't know how many— four Americans stationed in the Russian zone because they were supposed to control their telephone lines that they weren't sabotaged. And so they had— in about four places of the eastern zone— they had those American stations, let's call it. And through a friend my sister met the Americans. And they were getting together, had parties or whatever. I was going in Leipzig, another city, I was going to the interpreter school, but I came home for Christmas and Gerda had a date with one of the Americans, her boyfriend there. And she said “Oh, I can’t make it my sister is here for Christmas, and I can't make it." I think it was Willie, and he said, "Well, bring your sister along." So, can't beat that offer. So I went along with her and that's how I met Willie. And I had to go back to school again. Christmas vacation was over, and in the meantime he was being transferred to Leipzig where I was going to school. And so, I guess he called me up or somehow or other I found out that he was there and we got 39 together again and saw each other. There in Leipzig too I had to have the operation. So he came to visit me there and we just continued. And I don't know what year it was— '48? No, it must have been '46, '47. There again he was transferred to the American zone. I thought that is a good time for me to move out of here, to move away from the Russians and cross over. So, I just crossed the border. Well, he told me “Go there and there, I know the people.” So I went over there and of course I had to take my own potatoes along and all that, because everything was rationed and couldn't wind up on the people there and eat from their ration. But I got hired at the American base, they tested me for trial stenographer, ha! Well that didn't go very far, but anyway they put in an office then so at least I got my ration card and something to eat, so that's where I stayed. From then the ball start rolling about applying for the papers to come here to get married and all that. But there was lots of running around and of course I didn't have any official papers either, I just had my ID. And they were different colors too, I guess just like here, but anyway my ID was blue. So that indicated that it’s German ancestry or German something like this. So, had to go and see somebody from the International Red Cross, and he verified for me that I am from Poland, that I am a DP, a Displaced Person, and that I was kosher, you know, that the Americans could accept me. Not that I'm a spy. EW: Then you ended up in the United States with Willie. Where did you go from there? ES: Well of course we landed in New York, must have been a military base, Fort Dicks. And there we stayed a couple of days until everything was straightened out. He was in camp, I was here. And so finally he was dismissed and go home. I guess we could have flown from New York to New Mexico but I said "No I want to ride the bus to see the 40 country. I may never have another chance like this." So we came by bus but it was a four day ride or so, my feet swelled up and I was pregnant by then already. Then I don't know somewhere, must have been already New Mexico. We stopped there at the bus and he went in the restaurant, and he ordered the chili. Well, he wasn't used to that, so the next stop we had to pull over there and he had to run. And well there the bus driver was getting anxious already, and I was worried what’s going to happen to me. “Wait for my husband!” the first time I used husband, the word husband. So he finally made it but he was still aching. So we came to Santa Fe, we were dropped off there, we went into a hotel and he called his folks, I guess he called and then the message went down to let the folks know that he arrived and they came for us. The next day we met them there. They came in the car, it was still thirty-six miles from Santa Fe to his home town. Was completely different, desert, and no trees, and bare. And we stopped there on one place, the men went in, Father and Willie, they got a Coke or whatever it was. And of course his folks didn't speak any English. I stayed out with Mother there, no conversation you know. But she was trying to tell me something, motion and all that. Anyways, "aire, aire, mucho aire." It’s fast, until it dawned on me “Air, air,” like she was trying to tell me it was mighty windy there, you know. So you had to figure that out, yeah. So, then we came to El Rito. It was different, it was a village, and adobe buildings, sage grass, and no electricity, no water indoor, outhouse. So I met the family there, and we had a banquet. They welcomed me, you know. And then, little while later, I met the ladies from the school, the teachers, and they were gonna give me a shower because of the baby. I'm going to have a baby shower. “What is a baby shower, how can you have a baby shower when the baby isn't around?” So I just waited and waited and then the 41 next Sunday or whenever it was they came and they had the prettiest present for the baby, you know. Now, that was a treat. That's what a baby shower is, yeah. EW: You were welcomed into the village? ES: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. EW: In New Mexico Willie's family was Spanish, did they all speak Spanish? ES: Nothing but. EW: Did you speak Spanish? ES: No. EW: Did you learn quickly, did you take classes? ES: I had to, yeah, yeah! No, heavens no. You just figured it out or there were some words that I asked, “What does that mean?” But it just fell in places, it made sense and then there is the repeat of some words, you know. No, you just learn it. I just learned it like that. No, I didn't have any schooling or anything like this. Oh, yeah! Of course there were misunderstandings. So he was going to work, to school, to learn carpentry in the afternoons. I was alone, well with my kids. And the folks came over, and I had this idea I gonna try to make tortillas. And I thought, I'm all by myself, you know, nobody see my disaster. So I tried it, but they dropped in of all days. I had made the tortilla and they didn't mind, they admired it that I tried it. I asked them because we had to be to town to Espanola for groceries. I had bought cabbage, because I had heard from his conversation fried cabbages. So I had the cabbage so I said "Why don't you stay for supper? I have cola." I tell them that's what we're gonna have, cabbage. Well their ears popped they were curious what I mean what I planned, so they stayed out of curiosity. 42 They stayed to discover what it was. Well of course I was wrong, cola means tail, cole with an "e" means cabbage. So I invited them for tail. There were I think a few misunderstandings but we plowed through somehow or other. EW: Did you make friends there? ES: Well there were his sisters. One sister lived right next door. She spoke English, so I could. And then too, their kids they went to school and they spoke English so I could run over and ask or whatever it was. And then his other sister she lived on the other side of the village, and that was my only contact in the beginning. We didn't get together too often either, maybe picnics to so. But the teachers from the school, because that was a boarding school, I don't know if your familiar with the boarding school. Well they all spoke English and they were nice and they invited me. They took me over to watch movies. And, oh yeah, he had a cousin or friend or whatever, she was a teacher and he was working there in school too, and they even became the godparents for Richard. She came over, I remember a couple of times she brought her sewing along and I was doing my crocheting or whatever. There were the neighbors across the street, they were teenage girls, two girls they spoke English. EW: So you weren't completely isolated and alone, there were people you could communicate with. ES: Well, like I said the young folks at least they spoke English, and there was communication. The older generations, they didn't speak any English. Never learned it all their lifetime and all that. EW: And you had all your children while you lived in New Mexico? 43 ES: Yeah. We arrived there in October in El Rito and Richard was born in December. So, what did I know about having kids or anything like this? I just had to run to the bathroom, well it wasn't a bathroom it was to the outhouse you know. Anyway I mentioned it to my sister-in-law, to his oldest sister, and so she said, "Hey, I think your ready we'd better go." And there again it was thirty-six miles to hospital or anything like this. But they had nurses coming out there once a month I think. So anyway, I don't know if she send us in, if Willie took me in, or what. But anyway, we went in to Espanola, to the closest place and I had Richard there. Good thing, was about time. And then like I said the nurses came out but once a month, and you had to take the kids in for examination they had any troubles or so. But thanks to God they was alright. But then the nurse, "Do you know you're pregnant?" So that's it, Charlie just slipped in there. So then I had two. And then it was with the Korean War, he was called up because he was a veteran to go to Korea. Then in the questionnaire, it came that if he had any dependents. And I think he made a mistake, I don't know if intentionally or not, but anyway he marked one too many of us dependent that he was excused so he didn't have to go then. That's when he was called up. I said, "I want another child cuz I gonna be here all by myself and you not gonna be here, the child isn't gonna bother you. I want another child." So there was good old Steve. And then he was excused, he didn't have to go. There were three, yeah, yeah. But there too, I don't know if I renovated the place there because the people there, the mothers that brought the children babies to the clinic, they dressed their little ones in their best outfits you know, whatever they got, the t-shirts and the sweaters and the best. And I, especially with Richard, I remember was so warm I just put some shorts on him and I took him. Well the nurse was delighted, but 44 the other ones, naked I guess. But any I didn't care I felt for the poor kid, you know, it was too hot. So here was innovations, good or bad. EW: So how was it raising three boys in New Mexico? ES: Well, over there I guess the grandmother gives a hand, you know. She either takes a kid or raises it. I had this offer made too and I said no, no, no, no, no, no, no. So anyway I kept them. And I, well especially Richard the other ones were still too young, Richard I talked to in German. I was still more into German, so I talked to him in German. But then, of course when the folks came they talked in Spanish. And then with the neighbors, the girls or so, English. So that poor kid he got so mixed up, so we decided just to talk to him in English. But, now I'm sorry I wished I would have continued that because he would have picked up in no time and he would have kept it separate, but it was too late, yeah. And then, Willie was going to work in Los Alamos. You probably heard of Los Alamos where they developed the atomic bomb. And well he had the job there and it was quite a distance away for everyday driving, so we moved closer to the job there. We lived in Espanola, so we lived there, we rented there, and as best as we could. EW: Being from Poland and Germany and then going to New Mexico and having these two completely different cultures, was it hard to adjust for you? ES: I don't think hard to adjust. You had to adjust. But it was such a tremendous change. The world was just upside down. Everything, it was the language, the food, the living... It was just overwhelming, yeah... And then I don't know how long we lived there. Willie came here with his cousin to Utah. And well, he found a job here, work. So he came and picked us up, and we put everything in and on the car. We even put tricycles on the 45 car, put it to the fenders and whatnot and we came here. And for the first time we lived in Salt Lake, in a place where they had a coal bin out there. Well, when the kids went out and they played in the coal dust, black. But then we moved to another place upstairs. Oh, that was nice, I liked that. That was just great. And from there he finally got some quarters allocated here in TOD, TAD or whatever it was called. So we moved here and then we start looking for place to live, and so we bought the house on West Vine there, Ponderosa. So we moved back and forth. Well, there too, that is long already is such a difference, over there in Europe you were born there, you grow up there, you die there. And here you just move all over. So, I just watched a show the other day about anxiety and the difference between the European and the American, you know. The American always hustle, hustle, more always, outdo the Jones's, you know, keep up with the Jones's. Not the European, he's satisfied with what he has you know, he's not complaining, he doesn't kill himself for more money. That was good. I liked it yeah, yeah. EW: So you're here in Tooele. Were you only a housewife, or did you work another job while you were here? ES: For a while yes, I was nothing but a housewife. Well, I didn't mind it, I did it for the kids the baking, the cooking, the surprises, it was fun. I didn't mind it. I am a housewife, I am born housewife. But then, I think the kids were getting older. Richard was gonna go to college I think. And so I thought, how we gonna put him through college? So, I don't know how it came about, but I'm gonna go to work and bring in some money. Anyway I think it was about time for Richard to go to college, we needed more money. I decided to go to work. Well of course, first I tried here in TOD, it was the closest but they had no 46 opening. And on the other hand from what I heard working at TOD it was cutthroat. So anyway, I applied in Dougway and they accepted me there as a secretary in the photo lab. And that was already in the special section, you know, it was cordoned off and all that. But anyway I went to work there. I hope you don't ask for dates. Was it '63, '60? I don't know. I worked there about three years. And then of course I wanted advancement, and I came to English village to the main, and I worked there for transportation as an accountant. There I worked about couple of years. And then I went to finance. There again, when was it that I quit? Oh yeah, I was getting fed up with this travel, I wanted to transfer here. Willie was retiring and I said "Why should I work?" Anyway, I quit I think after thirteen years. That was a dumb decision, but I did it, yeah. EW: Why was it a dumb decision? ES: Well because I didn't work long enough to get my retirement. But then he retired, health troubles, health reasons. So, then we stayed home another while and then we moved here in '75 in this house. And I intend to stay here until end of my days yeah, yeah. EW: So you were retired and so was Willie, were you involved with any groups? I know you have German friends here. ES: Yeah, Yeah. Well then, yes, I had a neighbor here and she told me about another German girl, that she was so unhappy here. So she took me over there, introduced me to her and I met her. And of course I can't beat that. So we talked and we got together the next day, and she went there. There're lots of German girls. Well I guess it's all the war brides you know, from the war. There are five of us, but mostly four of us that we get together once a month. And that is all well. I was just here Thursday, we had to get together we exchange every month we meet at a different girls place. That's good, we 47 yap in German of course, we talk and talk. And there is one other Erika, man she can talk your head off, but she makes you laugh. It’s just beautiful. And she tells us jokes and then she runs down her husband and we come up with selling out our husbands. We have a good time, we have a good time, yeah. EW: How long have you been getting together with them? ES: Oh, let's see how long is she dead? About four years or something like this. But that is always looked forward to, yeah. And everybody brings out their best tablecloths, and china, and silverware, and makes the best stuff you know. I had some leftovers from her, they always send you some pieces of cake, so that's nice. Yeah, that's a good time. Well otherwise I like gardening, very much, but I'm beginning to get too old to all the bending and the plucking and all that, pulling the hose getting harder. Before I loved to do hand work, knitting, crocheting, embroidering, or so. But now I'm not too much into it because the kids grew up and there's nothing to make for them or sew for them or anything like this. And from what they are telling me now they hated it anyway when I dressed them in the same clothes, the same shirts. But I found it out too late. But it was for me, almost had to. But anyway, let's say out of a certain yardage, I needed one yard to make one shirt, so I needed two yards to make two shirts, but if I bought the two yards I could squeeze a third one out of there you know. So that's why they always wound up the same. And then I loved to read, never get enough time, well maybe now here in winter coming up. And of course well, I'm proud of my sons. They are my pride and joy. Just wish the other one wasn't that far away. But here with Richard, man, what he can't do, he just tackles anything. So at least that is my reward. EW: How many grandchildren do you have? 48 ES: Five. I have five grandchildren. Erika and Zac, and Sol and Ra, and Fontaine— hey, let’s not forget Fontaine. And already great grandchildren and there it's five again, isn't it? But too bad we lost contact with Steve's children and grandchildren. Yeah, it's good to have them, it's good to have them. EW: How does it feel to be a great grandmother? ES: That is a surprise I never thought... That is a surprise for me to, to live that long. Well, I think good old Lord made it a law to be three score and ten, that makes three twenties that is sixty and ten… Seventy, I think that seventy should be just right. That's how I feel. But then I have nothing to say about it. But I never expected to live that long, you know after all the trespasses, the wrong food, and the shortage of this and that. That is amazing, yeah. But now I have something to show for it. I am so proud just look at you, man, oh man. You there climbing. That is something special. EW: Is there anything we didn't cover today you wanted to mention? ES: Well like I told you here just read up on my childhood. There might even be some duplicate what you have. And then I want to write a few more, I have already there the points. But in winter I want to write funny things or something that really sticks out, occurrences that are memorable for me, doesn't mean anything to you. EW: Today is Saturday September 27, 2008. Thank you for sitting here with me today. ES: You're so welcome, you're so welcome. It's an honor, picked by you that you're interested enough. Yeah, I suppose there are some that even had a worse youth, but I can't complain how my youth was beautiful just that the war spoiled it and my father was torn from us and all that. You never know what life will bring you. 49 EW: What did happen to your father? ES: Well, we left on the 18th of January '45. Like I said, the Russians were getting too close. Was so cold, never forget, it was crunchy under our feet and the snow was sparkling. That is what I remember. So he took us to the train, like I said it was close enough good thing, he took us to the train and pushed us in the compartment and he stayed outside. And we begged him to come, "Come on in, come on in, come with us, come with us!" He said, "No, I stay here and I'll take care of our place." And he said, "Well I know the Russian language," because that generation, they were going to a Russian school then that was occupied by Russia, Poland. And so he said, "I speak the Russian language. I can make myself understand, and so I stay here. The war will be over pretty soon and then you'll come back. Yeah we’ll be reunited." Well we never saw him anymore, he stayed there. But he was kicked out of our home too, he left everything behind. He was put first into prison. Well, I guess they had to keep them somewhere. And then not that much later he was sent to east into a Russian prison camp, the mines. I don't know if it was coal mines, I assume so. And well, if you are a prisoner with all the privations and all that, he just didn't make it too long, he had diarrhea and all that. We had a letter from a man that was with him there in prison, and he wrote my mother a letter what happened to my father. And I translated it once, I think I gave to Richard but I don't know if he gave it to Joan to type it up. Have to do it again. So anyway, he just died there. He stayed there, he never came back, we never saw him again. So, you just never know what comes along in life, yeah. EW: When you left Germany what happened to you mother? Did she stay? 50 ES: Yeah. Well, see I came here. Well, we landed here in New York in October, can't remember the date ‘47, ‘48. Anyway, my mother stayed there with my sister. My sister was married by then, and she stayed with them and my sister had children too. And I think my sister was working and my mother took care of the kids, took them for walks and all that. And then my sister immigrated to Canada, but my mother couldn't come with her. So we started the procedure, the papers to bring my mother here. And I think we even got the help from the senator. And he helped us, he kind of pushed us that she won't be a burden on the state that we gonna support her, and feed her, and give her housing, and all that. So she came here, and she lived with us, there. But it must have been even harder on her than on me, you know, being older to switch over. The only one she could talk to was me, couldn't understand the language, the food was different and all the life, you know. So, she decided to go and stay with Gerda in Canada because she knew the kids they still spoke German. And so she went there for a visit but she never came back from there. She stayed with them and moved with them from one providence to the other one. And she died in Winnipeg, yeah. We went for the funeral there, it was March and I remember too, the wind was blowing. Couldn't even see the road it was so hard. So, we all scattered everywhere. My father there in Russia, my mother in Canada, my sister in Canada, I probably wind up here so, good fertilizer for everywhere, yeah, yeah. EW: Thanks again. 51