Oral History Program Frank Jugler Interviewed by Patricia Buchanan 17 July 1980 i Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Frank Jugler Interviewed by Patricia Buchanan 17 July 1980 Copyright © 2014 by Weber State University, Stewart Library ii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. 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These oral history assignments were created to help Weber State students learn the value and importance of recording public history and to benefit the expansion of the Weber State oral history collections. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. 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It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Jugler, Frank, an oral history by Patricia Buchanan, 17 July 1980, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Frank Jugler. The interview was conducted on July 17, 1980, by Patricia Buchanan. Mr. Jugler discusses his life and personal experiences during his career in Utah Democratic politics in the early 1900’s. PB: Mr. Jugler, tell me about your life growing up and how you got involved in Utah State politics. FJ: I was born in Washington. My folks moved to California, Santa Rosa, California. In 1895, I stayed in Santa Rosa where I went to school until 1903 when I moved to Ogden. I stayed in Ogden until 1910 and my folks moved up to Idaho to go into ranching and farming which lasted until 1918. At which time we bought a mercantile establishment in {unreadable text}, Idaho and Blue Creek, Utah also one in Malta, Idaho. PB: What was your mom's and dad's names? FJ: My father’s name was Frank C. Jugler. My mother’s name was Mary Ritter Jugler. My father came over from Germany in 1879, and my mother came over in 1882. Blue Creek, Utah was a valley in the northwest part of Utah consisting of a store which had a post office, a feed, a barn and corrals and a windmill that cranked all night and day. They had terrific northwest winds, and it consisted of only 50 or 60 farmers that lived around. They are all gone now, and nobody remembers the town. It wasn’t even a town; just a half a dozen buildings. However, the post office, being in the store, and the farmers gathering there, particularly in the winter to sit around the stove and argue, we had a lot of conversations about politics. Nobody knew much about the Democrats or the Republican Party, but we all took sides. When election time came along, we didn’t 1 even know what we were doing. A few of us tried to organize a Democratic Party, and I think we got half the votes, possibly, I’ve forgotten. This went on until 1922, when I moved to Ogden. PB: In 1922, when you came to Ogden, what was Ogden like? And did you know Frank Francis that was the mayor of Ogden at that time? FJ: Frank Francis Sr. I got a job to work for the Associated Credit Men of Utah auditing and liquidating stores throughout the territory. At that time, Gus Packman from Salt Lake was secretary of the ZCMI and I worked for him at the Salt Lake Hardware and Corral Wholesale here in Ogden. Getting better acquainted with my old friend, W. Jake Parker, who finally asked me to be his secretary. This went on for a few months and we became associated as partners. Mr. Parker was very influential in Utah and a lifelong Democrat He was Commissioner of Davis County, having his home in Syracuse, Utah before moving to Ogden where he was County Chairman and finally became State Chairman. And being with him, I remember the first election we had was in 1924, when he was Chairman of Weber County, and I ran errands. Whatever any Democrat wanted, I had to do, and did. So I got known in the Democratic Party, in Weber County. Then Weber County didn't have much assist in the first two years, but that was the year things went on and there were a lot of old democrats then and knew what the party was about, something that might not be so evident at the present. However in 1934 the election came about, I was busy at that time with the cattle processing in Utah and didn't attend the convention coming home in the evening from Salt Lake where I had my office. I was called by the chairman of the convention, I’ve' forgotten who he was now, and he asked if I would take the chairmanship. 2 PB: For the County? FJ: For the county. Which I told them I would do anything the democrats wanted as I always had and I hope always will. That is I hope so. However a few hours later the committee called on the consisting of W.J. Barns, Norman Jensen and Peter Ingstrum to inform me that I had been elected chairman. They had Joseph Rirary run against me and he came out a very close second. He should have had it instead of me because he was older but not as near determined as I was. I was chairman being elected three times for six years, from 1934 until 1940, which covered three elections and we never lost a candidate for an elected office in Weber County or state-wise, which consisted at that time of Norbert Thomas for senator, and named Congressman. Both relying on Ogden and Weber County for the majority of votes which always amounted to around 5,000 popularity. And helped the democrats throughout the state. Getting finally acquainted with W.J. Parker who had started in 1912 in Syracuse where he was farming and a twelvemen, which he was one, started a cannery and they each put up $100 which gave them $1200 to start with. They canned 4,000 cases I understand this year. All this is from memory but I think it is correct. He liked the canning business and bought another plant that had gone broke and started the Star Canning Company in Roy. Finally he moved to Ogden here and bought the Wasatch Orchard Factory and built four other canneries. Mr. Parker built five canneries in 1910, they were located in, no six canneries in Riverdale, Plain City in upper west Weber, West Ogden, and I don't know where the other one was. However being acquainted with him and forming a partnership he had gotten a contract to war, number one to build a factory on the shores of Utah Lake so he canned carp for the army. They were going to take the entire output. Mr. Parker 3 invested his money and built the plant. He got one car load built when the armistice decided war number one when the government didn't even buy the one car load, which we finally had to haul out to Salt Lake and dump out again. As time went on the plant just stood there until 1923 we decided to make a fruit and vegetable cannery out of it. It wasn't in the farming district and we had to pay an extra few dimes a ton to have our merchandise delivered down there. The other factories were located right in the middle of the farming districts. But we made out all right even if it did cost us a few dimes. We were used to spending money by that time and not making any. Mr. Parker was also a member of the Road Commission of Utah, being appointed by George Durn who was governor and gave Mr. Parker credit for electing him as he's been chairman of Weber County and Weber County gave Governor Garn enough surplus to elect him. Henry H. Brudd was at that time chairman of the road commission and who was very well acquainted with Mr. Parker as he'd been clerk for Davis County while Mr. Parker was commissioner 30 years before. So Mr. Parker got the idea that Henry H. Brudd should be governor of Utah and arranged his election and got credit for the election and succeeded him as chairman of the road commission instead of being a member. This position he held until he died in 1931. PB: I don't know why they can carp. I mean really when you get right down to it we think of them as trash fish. Nobody wants to eat them, but you know they are high protein-- why not? Somebody would eat them somewhere. FJ: I remember down there in the fish cannery there was a doctor who came over from Provo. He and his wife had just moved to Provo and they had heard about the fish and they had only had a couple beautiful carp about that long. 4 PB: Well the colored people eat them. FJ: I remember his wife said “how do you cook them?” I said, “Well, you clean them, dip them in batter if you like, and put them on a pan and set them on a hardwood plank. Then you lay them along this little plank and you clean them there when they are getting cooked. Take them out of the oven and throw them out to the garbage and eat the plank.” PB: That’s kind of funny. I thought you were going to tell me that the oak plank would catch on fire and burn the fish up. FJ: You know, I got acquainted with that doctor afterwards and his wife never did forgive me. PB: When you were young I bet you were a loo-loo. I tell you what. FJ: I had lots of fun. I remember she was so serious, you know. And I told her to throw them away and eat the plank… Where should I go back to now? PB: Well, let’s see. I don’t know, why don’t you tell me how the convention has changed, how the meetings changed? How was politics in those days? What did you do? How did you run the campaign? FJ: In the years during which I was county chairman, I was just starting and there was no television and we had cottage meetings arranged by the women. They were little rallies, every little town had to have a rally or two during the months before the election and I remember my old friend, Abe Merdock, when he first moved from Beaver. They were nominated {unreadable text} who later became Attorney General. But about the first thing he did in 1932 while I was running errands for the party. He had a beat up 5 Chevrolet and said, “I can’t show up at these cottage meetings and rallies in this car, you’ve got to haul me around.” Which I did, night after night. PB: Did you have a decent car? FJ: Yes, I had a decent car, in fact I’ve always had one, whether it’s paid for or not. Still have. Abe Merdock became one of the greatest congressmen and senators that you will ever have, just as Governor Brudd was the finest governor that Utah ever had. While he was very religious he forgave us for not being quite as, should I say, sentimental, or what? Sanctimonious is the word I wanted. PB: What did Ogden look like during the 1920's and what were some of the businesses and what kind of crops did they raise and what were some of the problems that Ogden had then? FJ: Ogden didn’t raise any crops. That came from Weber County. But there were only two banks, no three banks. The Ogden National or Utah National I think, it was where their Frist Security building is now. That was bought by Marion Eccles in 1928 and was a two story building where the First Security building is now. The Reed Hotel was the largest hotel in Ogden on the site where the Benlomond Hotel is now. The five story hotel with the 5th floor given up to the {unreadable text}… which used to come through every week and play their circuit on Fridays, Saturdays, and Sundays. The rest of the time it was rented out for overnight guests. Really a nice place. The Broom Hotel was a three story hotel where the Commercial Security Bank is now, and it was a polished café which was really the only place where you could get a decent meal in Ogden. The Reed Hotel was a counter corner across from where the Commercial Security Bank is now. It was a five story hotel where the Ben Lomand Hotel is. And it was the hotel in Ogden. I lived there 6 from 1922 to 1926. And the top floor the 5th floor was given over to the Pantageous Circus which used to play here at the Orphum Theater Friday, Saturday and Sunday nights of every week. These shows were in Ogden, and the 5th floor of the Reed Hotel was always maintained for the Pantageous Circus, which was always a jolly crowd. That was at the time when radio was still starting and there was no television. And the only shows we had were five picture shows here that were operated by Harmon Perry of the Perry Estate and these inspectors from the liquor commission caught him. PB: Oh my Gosh! FJ: {Unreadable text}… and we went down there and they told his brother to open up and then these two investigators put them both in jail. PB: Oh dear, that was Jay Brad and Lee? Oh my gosh, it was the Sundance Kid and Butch Cassidy! FJ: It went with the rest up at the ranch {unreadable text}… PB: Oh gosh… Well that is the way it was in those days. FJ: {Unreadable text} and still is. Something had gone haywire. You know after he got to be elected governor, he wouldn’t take a drink. PB: He would before that. Was that part of the church that you could take a drink before that? Or was that well some place back there during the time you could take a drink in the Mormon Church as long as you didn’t drink… FJ: I don’t know if you remember or not, but I used to go down to the country club for dinner and we would get drunker than hell, all three of us. All we had to do was pay our Hotel bill. I think it was a dollar and a half or two dollars and be back the next morning. 7 PB: But once he became governor, why he wouldn’t have anything to do with that stuff, huh? FJ: No way, no, no. I lived up in the Canyon, you know, for 14 years after my wife died. And Cal used to stop there and he’d have a patrol man out in the car and that bastard would sit there for two or three hours in the car while Calister would relax and have a dozen drinks. PB: Cal was a pretty good guy, wasn’t he? FJ: He was a hell of a good guy. PB: Was he part of the Young Democrats in Ogden? FJ: No, he ran for the State Committee {unreadable text}…Rollins. Cal Rollins was the best guy in the world. You should get his. PB: Now was Cal Rollins part of what came out and surveyed the Railroad? Was that his dad? FJ: I don’t know. PB: Is Rollins Wyoming named after him? FJ: Cal Rollins was one of the three little pigs, he {unreadable text}… in the world. We were best friends in the world. I used to give him hell when he was Chairman of the State Committee. I remember {unreadable text}… was running for governor. Cal called a meeting of the Central Committee. I went down there. There were six guys that I didn’t know sitting back there, somebody told me they were representing {unreadable text}. I get in more trouble than anybody in the world. 8 PB: Cal Rampton or Cal Rollins? Cal Rollins? FJ: Cal Rampton I knew since 34 and he went to Washington as an assistant to Congressman Robinson in the Second District, which was a party at Salt Lake at that time in Utah County. And then he came back and ran for state committeeman against Cal Rollins three times and lost. PB: For heaven’s sakes, I know he was a popular man. I think that was part of my Uncle Frank Brank who came out and surveyed for the railroad with General Rollins. It was probably the same family. FJ: When Cal ran we used to have these parties up there. One evening, Cal came up to me once he was over there and Bob Hinckley told him to never have a party out here without Frank, and they didn’t. Anyhow, Cal came to me and I think this was about his third election. He said, “You know Frank, you are the only Mormon in this damn crowd that hasn’t asked me for anything.” I said, “No, I haven’t asked you for anything. What’s more, you son of a bitch, I never will!” He hasn’t got anything that I want. He said, “Wouldn’t you say?” I said “depends on what it is, but I don’t need it. I don’t particularly want it, but ask me if I do.” And we got along fine. I told you he handled the Calister proceedings when {unreadable text}… Cal Rollins, who was Assistant Attorney General under Grover Giles and handled it for the State. PB: And so that was for the State Industrial Commission. FJ: Yeah. PB: Now what did they do about all that anyway? FJ: They lost. 9 PB: They lost… Well why did they want you out of that? And how did you get to be Industrial Commissioner anyway? FJ: Why did they want me out? Well, the story is that it’s because Parker died. I buried him as a {unreadable text}… of the elks down here. And Brudd asked me if I wanted to fill the vacancy. PB: As exalted ruler? FJ: No, as Chairman of the Road Commission. PB: Oh. FJ: Which I did. {Unreadable text}… I drank too much and they threw me out. They wouldn’t confirm me and when you’re confirmed by the Senate you’re a bum. PB: How did they have so much power? Was {unreadable text}… at that time? FJ: Well it was, yeah. He was quite a ladies man. PB: Pretty popular? FJ: He used to hold his speeches about the Democratic Power {unreadable text}… and that’s why Brudd appointed me on the Industrial Commission. I’m the only man in Utah who had never been thrown out of the Senate and not being qualified as a citizen to hold a state job. Which made plums out of a lot of them that got turned down. So, I got a second appointment and {unreadable text}… was still President of the Senate, and {unreadable text}… and that took less than 15 minutes to confirm me. PB: Now it’s okay? 10 FJ: It’s the only reason I took the appointment on the Industrial Commission because I had been turned down by the Senate and nobody ever had and came back for a second appointment they haven’t yet. PB: That’s the first time then that anybody was ever appointed right after they had been kicked out. FJ: No one else. PB: No one else has ever done that? FJ: Not before and since, so {unreadable text}… PB: Were you a party chairman during those times? At the same time you were on the Industrial Commission? FJ: No, I had to quite the Chairmanship to take the Industrial Commission. It was all right on the Road Commission, but you couldn’t be on the Industrial Commission and I had the {unreadable text}… company and the Industrial Commission at that time had the State Insurance Fund as part of it. {Unreadable text}… but it was part of the Industrial Commission while I was there. So I had to resign my Chairmanship, and I couldn’t {unreadable text}… But you know what I did? {Unreadable text}… and cooperation, and my secretary who was with me {unreadable text}… well, she had 96% of stock. {Unreadable text} safety deposit box but on the records. It was all hers, but she ran the office while I was on the Industrial Commission. Joe Chase was Attorney General, he came up and investigated it. {Unreadable text}… Joe Chase wasn’t born yesterday. PB: Right, boy, he knew what was going on then, didn’t he? FJ: Couldn’t do anything. 11 PB: Couldn’t do anything about it… FJ: Here it was out on my desk… PB: And that was your secretary’s name, and so he couldn’t do anything about it? You having it? FJ: I had my office there, but no connection with Acme Business. It was between 80 and 100 thousand dollars a year in insurance. But I have no interest in them, {unreadable text}… PB: Well, that was a real smart dealing on your part I guess. So you still have {unreadable text}… FJ: She stayed with me 18 years. PB: You still have the Acme Investment Company? FJ: Yeah, I’m lucky to go to hell, I never did earn any more. I still got a dozen or 15 policies. People I’ve known for 30 to 40 years say, hell, go ahead and renew my insurance! So I do, it keeps me busy, gives me something to do. But hell, I have the Utah Power and Light and I have the School Board and I have Silver Clean Mine, {unreadable text} and Christ paid you four or five thousand dollars a year for insurance and we’re getting 25%. Through my political connections I got these policies. PB: Well, that was good. FJ: Utah Power and Light, School Board, Silver Clean Mine. PB: Checking to see what you are doing? 12 FJ: Can’t look in there. {Unreadable text} and collect 5 million dollars from the insurance companies still in the courts and the insurance companies say “we don’t want no more Utah Power and Light, and won’t insure them anymore.” A couple thousand dollars down the drain. PB: Huh. FJ: I guess you {unreadable text}… PB: Well, who was the mayor of Ogden after Harmon Perry? FJ: Heck if I know. PB: Well, when we got into the 1930’s then who was it? FJ: Oh, Harmon went through the 40’s. PB: Really? That far down? FJ: I think the 40’s… PB: How about the City Councilmen? Who was on the City Council, do you remember? And what about the County Commission? Was the County Commission like it is today? FJ: It was Bill Woods, and I’ve forgotten their names, I wasn’t terribly interested in them. PB: The County Commission was always kind of a powerful job, wasn’t it? Always was. Were there more farmers do you think in those days than there are now? FJ: Oh yes. PB: Lots more farmers? Do they come from Plain City and West Weber and Huntsville and so on? 13 FJ: Huntsville and Roy {unreadable text}… elected a hundred times. Macintyre from Huntsville, let’s see, Jenkins died before he was up to it. PB: Bruce, but I talked to Merrill and I’m going to talk to Bruce’s wife. FJ: I taught Bruce his politics. PB: Did you? Well I guess he learned from a good teacher. FJ: And I did something else that I’m not too proud of. I taught Merlyn Stevensen, now, what the hell’s her name? National Committee woman that’s just been reelected? PB: Oh, Vance? Elizabeth Vance? FJ: Yeah, Elizabeth Vance. I taught her politics back in the 30’s. What she had on the ball, I don’t know, I don’t know how in the hell she got elected. PB: Well tell me about Elizabeth, how did she get started? FJ: I started her. PB: You started her just because she was a popular gal back in the thirties or what? FJ: I don’t nobody who ever liked Elizabeth Vance. PB: Well she must have had something, because she always got elected. FJ: Well she’s always had a beautiful job ever since. PB: Well yeah, she’s always got elected so there must be something. FJ: Even when Maw fired everybody and me, and everybody else, he started a liquor store for Elizabeth Vance out here, and she ran here in 5 Points during his administration 14 which she got another job. Republican or Democrats, she’s always got a job. She’s the most homely person in the world, and as obnoxious as hell. PB: She’s a good lady, a good person, like a caring person don’t you think? FJ: I don’t think, not ever. PB: You just don’t think, huh? FJ: He always wanted me to run for chairman again. But I haven’t had time. I never had been fired since he died, that Chairman Job. But in those days you were boss. Everybody needed a job, you were boss, who got them and who didn’t. And when you give the poor bastards a job, 6 months later they wanted a better one. They wanted the boss’s job. PB: You could really rule it then, with like an Iron Fist? FJ: Huh? PB: You could really rule it with an Iron Fist then? When you were chairman? FJ: A lot of fun. One gal, Katherine McCoo, she wanted a job, I got her {unreadable text}… at Joe Chase’s office who was an Attorney General. I know she came up to the office once when I was here in Ogden and wasn’t getting no spy. I looked at her and I said, “Okay”. I sent her down and years later when I was driving back and forth she called me up one day and said, “Can I ride to Ogden with you?” And I said, “Sure,” and I brought her to Ogden, and she turned out to be quite a girl and I asked her once, years later, what the hell did you think when you came into the office to get your OK? She said, “I really looked at you and wondered if you could be made.” PB: Well I guess she was being truthful. 15 FJ: I said, “Well, you’ve found out since!” PB: My goodness. FJ: I had a girl, I didn’t see her for 30 years or more, and within the {unreadable text}… she had a new husband and was down at the Elk’s Club for dinner one night. PB: Are you still a member of the Elk? FJ: Hell, yes. I’m a charter member. PB: Charter member of the Elk? FJ: Not a charter member but a… PB: Lifetime member? FJ: Yes, lifetime member. PB: How long have you been a member of the Elk? Has it been a long time? FJ: You can figure it out for yourself. PB: Be careful. Oh, you have a plaque from the Elk? Let’s see. Ogden Lodge 719, Order of the Elk. August 23, 1967. Boy this is really nice. To think that they would honor you like this… Past Exalted Ruler Association. Member of the Past Exalted Ruler Association of Ogden, Roy, Preston, {unreadable text}… It was really nice of them to honor you like this. You’ve been an Elk for… FJ: Since 1926. PB: Since 1926. They ought to give you something. Ah, should we just lay it here? During the Elk rush in the Elk Lodge, I bet when you first started in the Elk Lodge, there weren’t 16 very many members, were there? How many members were in the Elk Lodge when you first started? FJ: Art Wolly, who was an attorney here, and there was Robert Ruler, and we cut out 300 people who would pay their dues… We were down to 150 members. PB: 150 members in 1926? FJ: {Unreadable text}… At the lodge we used to get together down in the basement and had a couple of barrels with a twelve inch plank across them and drink some Moonshine, and in the month we made us a kitty paid the bartender 75 dollars a month or 25 dollars apiece. PB: And that was to raise money for the Lodge? FJ: Roy Young, who was drawn to the National Elk’s Convention, came back and Roy Young was an attorney here. He had 600 dollars in expenses and paid them all in good will certificates. That wasn’t worth a penny. Everyone {unreadable text}. In those days you could use them for initiation. He gave them away through the years, he was a good actor. In fact, he was Republican Chairman of Weber County while I was Democratic Chairman and we were on the same floor in the First Security Building and my door was right next to his. And they would come into my office looking for Roy Young, and into his office looking for me and we got along fine. Art Wolly ran for Congressman on the Republican ticket against Dave Merdock. He had a stud horse and a trailer and he would take this stud horse all through Southern Utah and stop and read the American {unreadable text} and his wife Ivy, she made up a song about Arthur Wolly going to Congress. Dave Merdock and I followed him and we’d get there a day after and the 17 drug stores, this was in the 30’s during Prohibition, we’d get to the drug store where they would always have some Moonshine. And we’d get the votes. Art Wolly would go on and {unreadable text} and we drank the whiskey and followed him around. PB: Oh dear, sounds like exciting days in the Elks. FJ: Once in a while we would get drunk enough to sing Art Wolly {unreadable text} and then we would change it about how Art Wolly’s gone to hell. PB: Was the Elk’s lodge down there in the building where it is today? FJ: Yes. PB: Of course they have done a lot of remodeling to that {unreadable text}. FJ: That was a schoolhouse they remodeled in 1924 {unreadable text}. PB: {Unreadable text} newspaper clippings saying that you were all involved in the Golden Gloves. FJ: If we go through that I could talk for three days. PB: Golden Glove Tournament, what did they do in those days? I guess that was in the 50’s when they had the Golden Glove Tournament? FJ: In the 40’s. PB: What did you do? Did you send the kids state to state? How did they do that? I know that was a big thing for the Elk. FJ: Well, we’d always get somebody to do the work. Sid Jensen, Vice President of the First Security Bank, he used to be Treasurer of the Democratic Party in Weber County. Poor fellow’s dead long ago, and he says,“You know, Jugler, you’re about the laziest guy I’ve 18 ever known.” But he would always appoint somebody that was going to do a good job, and get the credit for it. PB: That was still while you were County Chairman where you were a member of the Elk’s before you did both at the same time? FJ: I was President of the Tanner Association, Exalted Ruler of the Elks, and Chairman of the Democratic Party all at the same time. PB: You’re a busy man about the town! FJ: Oh, I was busy day and night. I had two offices here and one at the Capitol Building I was supposed to attend. Which I did occasionally, two or three days a week. PB: Did you ever belong to the Eagles? FJ: No. PB: No, never belonged to the Eagles. FJ: {Unreadable text} I can’t afford to have my back stopped to advertise and make me an offer. I said, “Christ, I haven’t got any money. Give them a check God Dammit!” So I went. PB: Was it very expensive? FJ: Ten dollars a share. PB: Ten dollars a share… FJ: I bought it from a guy in Huntsville who came out with an advertisement right afterwards. Ten shares to still make me an offer. {Unreadable text} go up there to Huntsville and buy this ten shares, which I did, and gave me 20 shares {unreadable 19 text}. Called me to old Jim Divines office and wanted to know whether I’d stay with the {unreadable text}. I bought these ten or twenty shares for Charlie Barton, and he asked me too and he paid my checks for it. He said, “We can’t afford to lose him as a stock holder, you stay in and when you want to get out and I’ll buy your stock later on.” That’s why I kept it. In ’31 the Ogden State Bank closed. PB: Why did they close? FJ: They had the run on Hemmingway’s banking and the First Security. PB: Collapsed, huh? FJ: Yes, and that’s another story. I put a 6,000 dollar payroll, {unreadable text} Ogden State Bank. It’s funny they didn’t open the bank. Anyway {unreadable text} money I told Hemmingway, “You said I’d buy this stock any time, {unreadable text} to hell with it. I’ve got too much of that stock myself. I won’t buy it.” I said, “All right,” and we became good friends. He gave me a bunch of money, always gave me money. PB: Now that was Hemmingway? FJ: Yeah, the father of Dick Hemmingway. He was a good guy, I used to ask him, “What the hell do you do these days to {unreadable text} oh, you’re a pretty good guy.” At one time I owed him just about a quarter of a million dollars. That’s 250,000 dollars. PB: That was really a lot of money in those days. FJ: I never cared how much money I owed as long as I was making money with it. I needed 30,000 dollars, I think I told you this before, we went up and borrowed it in Logan, he had a contract there from Logan United Engineers and we needed another 30,000 dollars. Well I went up to Christiansen and told him this Logan contract {unreadable 20 text} need 30,000 dollars. Next day Hemmingway called me up and took me in the back and said, “What the hell do you mean going up to Logan borrowing 30,000 dollars from {unreadable text}”. I said, “Well, I owe you so damn much I didn’t have the guts to ask you for more.” “Have I ever turned you down?” “No.” “So, you go get in your car and go up there and pay {unreadable text} today.” Which I did. But I was never a day late with interest. Never late with a payment or renewal. PB: Well that’s what kept them in business I guess. FJ: They always got their money. PB: Takes money to make money, doesn’t it? FJ: He made me 10,000 dollars with 360. PB: That’s good profit I guess. FJ: Why, why do you pick on me? Oh you’re a pretty good fellow. Don’t happen anymore. I never gave my statement. I never made out a financial statement. PB: Boy that’s fantastic, they really put you for who you were and what you stand for. FJ: Couldn’t do it now. PB: No {unreadable text}. FJ: I had a friend here in Ogden, a pretty good friend. Last February he came over and stopped in and he said, “I need 12,700 dollars tomorrow morning.” He had 25,000 dollars to pick up and would be picked up tomorrow. And we’ll make some money at it. I said, “Well meet me down at the bank tomorrow morning and you sign the damn note and I’ll endorse it, and you’ll get your money.” He said, “All right.” And he did. There were 21 some new fellows down there filling out financial statements. “We don’t have no financial statement of yours,” and I said, “Yes you have. You’ve got one made out in the 60’s, Frank Francis made out and he signed it." Frank could sign my name as good as I can, and he did a lot of times while we were partners. I would get a statement and I'll endorse a note and he’ll want it now. I found his statement two weeks later, I'd seen him once or twice and we'd had lunch together and never mentioned it you know, personally I knew. I got a note from him in the mail, note saying that the bank had paid. Here's your end of it, it was 750 dollars. I knew the note for 12,000 was good because he was worth 1 million dollars so I didn't mind endorsing it. PB: When they had all the run on the banks in the 30's, were all the people committing suicide and all that stuff like they did back East? FJ: Oh yes. PB: What banks folded? FJ: Ogden State Bank, it’s right on the corner of where now is the Ben Lomande. PB: They folded, was that the only one around here? A lot of people lost a lot of money. FJ: There were only 3 banks, First Security, and Hemmingway’s Bank, and First Security and the Ogden City Bank they closed. PB: So the other two made it? Is there anybody who had money in that Ogden State Bank, what happened? Did they lose their money? FJ: No they got out about 60% we had a lot, in fact we were going out of business. The liquidating process {unreadable text}. PB: Gosh, well… 22 FJ: Hemmingway picked me up here a week ago, and took me down there to look at the new bank they were building, an 80 million dollar bank {unreadable text}, 24 stories, highest bank in Utah. {Unreadable text} office and we looked down there at the First Security building and you know, I’ve always wanted to look down on the First Security building. PB: That’s good. Yeah, they are growing. What did they do in the mass meeting? During the 20's and 30's? FJ: Oh the mass meetings? PB: Yeah. FJ: Well they would always have a guest speaker and then the delegates had to be introduced, you know, they all would come up there. PB: Now that was in the convention? FJ: No, that was in the mass meeting. PB: The mass meeting. FJ: Every night some place or another, Riverdale, South Slaterville, Hooper, we’d go everywhere. PB: So they were really pretty big then? They were big in those days? FJ: Oh yeah we had 50 or 60 people out every time. I remember Merdock and I were on and I would take him out to a city and I was supposed to introduce him. We left raining like hell, and we had a bottle of Moonshine, and we got out to Hot Springs instead of {unreadable text} City, and how we finally got to Plain City, and {unreadable text} 23 Merdock was {unreadable text} Murdock’s secretary. He had the brains and he was tired of me anyways, {unreadable text} he wanted the Congressman’s brother and he was damn tired of being the Congressman’s brother. He {unreadable text} Merdock so when I introduced him I introduced him as Ray Merdock, and when I got through I said, “By the way, he is the Congressman’s brother.” It took him ten minutes to explain. PB: Really? FJ: Congressman’s brother. Brother Ray being the Congressman’s Brother. You may find when you get to be an attorney back in the 30’s, they always lied a little bit in the hospital for a year now, he’s still alive, cancer. But he turned out to be kind of a {unreadable text}. Two girls that I know of committed suicide over the bastard. He was really a ladies man. One of the finest fellows you could get. Murdock’s awfully close to him. PB: What a neat guy, what an attractive man in all the pictures you see of him. Double breasted suits and all. FJ: Abe just died here just last year, you know. PB: No, I didn’t know. FJ: He just died last year, his brother {unreadable text}. PB: In Salt Lake? FJ: No, in Washington. PB: Oh, in Washington. FJ: {Unreadable text} guy. 24 PB: That’s too bad. FJ: This {unreadable text} on Abe Murdock’s secretary back in ’32. PB: Mrs. Vernon? FJ: She came over here first time she came back she {unreadable text}. I know they called me after I was elected in a meeting, I didn’t know what the hell to do but I went to the meeting. I would organize the district and the chairmen there, you know. And this gal, I didn’t know her, she had on a kind of a yellow overcoat for cold weather, she got up there and said, “Mr. Chairman and {unreadable text} Abe Merdock, for hell’s sake you want to move over to headquarters we’ll move you, we’ll help you!” {Unreadable text}. Who the hell’s that anyway? Neil Homestead. Quite an attorney here, he was secretary {unreadable text} he was just starting {unreadable text}. Who in the hell is that anyhow? He said, “I don’t know.” We got acquainted afterwards. PB: And you’ve been friends all these years? FJ: Since 1934. PB: Well, that’s good. 25