Oral History Program Nicole Swan Interviewed by Steve Pugmire 29 March 2017 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Nicole Swan Interviewed by Steve Pugmire 29 March 2017 Copyright © 2023 by Weber State University, Stewart Library Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description The Weber State College/University Student Projects have been created by students working with several different professors on the Weber State campus. The topics are varied and based on the student's interest or task for a specific assignment. These oral history assignments were created to help Weber State students learn the value and importance of recording public history and to benefit the expansion of the Weber State oral history collections. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Swan, Nicole, an oral history by Steve Pugmire, 29 March 2017, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, Special Collections and University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Nicole Swan Circa 2017 Abstract: This is an oral history interview with Niki Swan. It is being conducted on March 29, 2017 at Utah Valley University and concerns women in leadership. The interviewer is Steve Pugmire. SP: This is Steve Pugmire. I'm off screen, but I'll be moderating the questions today. Joining me is Niki Swan, the Director for UVU's Internship Services Office, and we'll just jump right in with the questioning if you're okay with that. Thank you for taking the time to do this out of schedule. NS: Sounds great. Sure. My pleasure. SP: So, the first question I have for you is, can you please tell us about your background and just anything you want to throw in there. I've got the questions in front of you as well if you want to revert back to them. Just tell us about your background and how you got to where you are, and again this is for a leadership class so anything leadership related would be appreciated as well. NS: You bet. So, I grew up in a family of six kids. I was second oldest. So, if you look at the birth order, you know, that tends to create leaders also. Our family was really close, did a lot of fun things together. We moved around a lot. I've lived in eleven different states. I think that that has been something formative. It'll cross over into your second question a little bit here too that helped me to be a leader, was to learn to rely on myself and to have to take charge. If I wanted to have friends, I learned that I had to be the one to instigate that friendship instead of waiting for things to happen to me. Moving around, I think, really was a key part in creating a lot of characteristics that I have now. So, that was a lot of fun. My family is very funloving. We like to just go out and have a good time and so we spend a lot of 1 time camping, houseboating, and doing things like that that pushed limits. My parents are very adventurous, especially my mom, and I am a little scared of heights, you know, so I would be pushed to go on hikes that were outside of my comfort zone and to engage in activities that were outside of my comfort zone and I find that to also be something that led to me understanding and believing what qualities I have and that I am capable of doing hard things. That's an important thing for a leader to have I believe. So, the roots of that came from those experiences. My dad was the first person to graduate from college in his whole family, all of his background. So he's a bit of a pioneer and very much an advocate for education and for pushing yourself that way, and achievement was important to him, along with his family. So, he was crucial to me growing up to watch how he did things, and his voice was always there saying, 'You are going to get an education. You are capable of these things. You will push hard.' He grew up in a very traditional family where the girls didn't get an education. But he had a lot of support in promoting him to do that. His parents really wanted him to. Of course, that was long ago, and that's how it was, but that was his story and he shifted that dialogue with his daughters. “You will get an education. You will do this,” and I appreciated that. Education… I have a bachelor's in special education. So, my career at that point in time was going to be a teacher. I think that plays into being a leader and wanting to be a leader, being a leader of a classroom [and] being able to influence the students that were in my class. I really enjoyed that but found myself as a single mom making $19,000 a year. So, that was not 2 awesome and absolutely forced a change and moved me into business, into banking in particular. I enjoyed that and got an MBA, and then found with having a family and a husband who was going through his own Ph.D., I kind of did the traditional mom kind of thing and picked up jobs as I needed to according to what the needs of my family was, and my husband's schedule. So I had little bits of Hodgepodges, but banking was the common thread through all of that. I really hadn't returned to education until about five or six years ago. I thought, you know, I want to go back to what I loved and do that. But I found with all of this exposure to leadership, to business, that those were my strengths and that was what I enjoyed. So, I went that direction. Anyway, that led me to working here at UVU and being a career counselor and then transitioning into Internship Services. So, it's kind of a windy path that I took and I look back on it and see how all of that built together, how all that plays to create strength for where I am at right now. SP: So, besides some of those experiences you shared in your formative years - if we can use that term - do you ever remember taking any leadership classes? Where does your confidence come from with your leadership now? Because you're over 17 people? NS: Fifteen people. Yeah, that, and it does go back to childhood like you were talking about. But I think also in being able to see - I'm trying to think where to start with my story there - I can go to my MBA program. But really I can jump earlier to, you know, there is just a point, and I'm trying to think where it is where I decided when I take charge then things get done the way I want them to be done. And, I can see results. I can see that people that I was with just 3 were hesitant to be decision-makers. Hesitant to be the ones out in the front taking a risk. Risk is a big part of leadership, you know; the buck stops with me and so if anything goes wrong, that's me and that's a vulnerable place to be. A leader has to be okay with that and [able] to grasp that things are going to go right and that things are going to go wrong. So, I think that slowly developed over time. I think I went into my undergraduate not necessarily seeing that that was who I was even though I was already doing those things. I was captain of the swim team, and if I was ever in a group project, I was always the leader. But I don't know that I necessarily identified, “I'm going to be a leader.” But leadership things made me happy and I felt natural in them and I liked to do them. So, I think it was those maybe more formal in undergraduate where you get the kudos for being the person on the front and you start to realize, “Okay, this isn't something everybody does. It's something that I do, and I like it. And there's other people who are doing that and I can identify them as leaders and that it's similar to me.” And then, you know, reinforced through being out in a career and taking those risks and seeing that, “Okay, yeah, this is me,” and growing in that confidence as we went along. I think that part of it too is the dialogue you hear from other people. So, when people tell you… I mean, I can think back to my parents or to relatives or to other teachers [saying], “You're a leader, Niki. And you need to step up and do this kind of thing,” and encouragement. That dialogue that you hear reinforces those ideas too, strengthens them. I think that's what took me there, was a recognition of what are my strengths and how do they play out in the 4 workplace. How - I'm kind of skipping to your next question here but - I value achievement. I like things to… I like to set goals and I like to meet them. I like to drive things forward and that's hard to do when you're not the leader, you know? Unless you've got a leader that really gives you a lot of latitude, and those are the best leaders I've had, are the ones that said, “Okay, Niki, I can see the way you operate. I'm just going to let you do your thing. I'm here to guide you. I'm here to support you. I'll set up boundaries, but you need to go.” So that was something I realized in myself. That achievement, that drive, works really well with leadership. That came together. SP: You mentioned achievement. Would you throw any other core values in there that are kind of guiding factors for you? NS: I would. That is a great question. So, yes, achievement. Relationships would be my number one thing. I really, really like people, and I think that is also a crucial aspect of leadership. Sometimes we view leaders as the more, you know, “This is how it is. I'm dictating. I'm going to take the hard line.” I can be that kind of person. There is that kind of leadership style; I'm a different kind of leadership style for sure. But I love to be that leadership because I'm in a position to influence others, and to form those relationships, and to help people grow, and I attach a lot of meaning to that. I think it's one of my strengths, is creating relationships. I like the challenge of stepping into a hard situation and making it something good; turning someone's opinion around, I enjoy that a lot. So, relationships, but that's a big umbrella. My relationship with my family, my 5 religious relationships that I have, that type of thing is very important to me. So, a connection to people. And then another one, my third one that I would identify, is joy. I need to be attached to purpose in what I do, no matter what it is. If it's at home, if it's at work, if it's extracurricular, I need to have some kind of purpose attached to it and see some kind of meaning. And to me, that's what created joy in me, is to know that I did something that was significant and meaningful to somebody else, and that creates happiness in me. So I'm always striving for that, to have joy in journey. It's something my mom always said: “Joy in the journey.” Wherever we were, she was encouraging us to be happy, and we used to hate that expression but, now I would that is one of my core values. SP: It's funny. Sometimes we have a... sometimes there's a negative connotation to go with things that are very important to us. Like, for example, you said your mom always pounded that into your head and you can hear her voice now. So, that's cool. Do you have a specific person, or maybe a couple of individuals however you want to answer this - that have been mentors or had an impact on you now that you're in a leadership position? Maybe you use some of their counsel still? NS: Yeah. So, the number one person would be my dad. I already mentioned him a little bit. He is the one consistent person for as long as I can remember, of course, but then modeled leadership for me. He was a great success and coming from being a first-generation college student to ending up as CEO of multiple banks… And his reputation throughout his whole career was integrity. 6 That was what he was known for, was to make choices based on integrity. People just knew that he lived what he said. He is that kind of person. And, that was very cool to know that was my dad, to be proud of that. But I saw my dad working really, really hard. I saw him embody that leadership isn't something that's handed to you, success isn't something that's handed to you. You work hard to get it. You make sacrifices to get it. Family was very important to him. So, he sacrificed to be able to spend time with us and also move forward in his career. Relationships: he's a master at relationships. He knew just how to behave in any given situation. “Does this person need to see me as stern? Does this person need to see me as a friend?” He could decode those situations and act appropriately without a thought. He was so good at that. That was very cool to see. He got up every morning at 4:00 a.m. to go and work out and then go to work and then, you know, come back so he could be with his family, and not spend time there, and that's something that I've modeled in my life as well. SP: How early do you get up? NS: 4:30. So, not as early as Dad, [but] close. I remember lying in bed just listening to him getting up and leaving and thinking, “Man, how does he do that?" SP: Is there a reason - I don't mean to divert - but, is there a reason that you personally get up early as opposed to maybe work out when you get home from work, or on your lunch break? Is there a significance with the morning? NS: There is. I love... I didn't love when I started the habit, you know. But I love to be up before anyone else. I love that feeling of, “I am doing things already. I am already being productive.” I love that feeling of knowing that I got an hour 7 workout in; most people are waking up, I've already got that under my belt and I'm ready to go. I've found also as I kept going the clarity of thought that comes from it. There's even research that shows exercising makes us function better intellectually. We remember things better. We can articulate better. There's a lot of science behind that which I think is fascinating. But I do find my days are better. I think I am clearer and more positive too because I got that done. And more than anything else, it’s so that I don't have to take that time away from family when I get home. I want to be there with my family and still feel like I was able to achieve that workout. Having a win in the morning: I got up, I did my one hour, I did it. It just starts everything out on the right foot. SP: 4:30. That's an early one. NS: Yeah. It is early. SP: So, I'm going to change up a little. I mean, not much, I'm just going - it's going to be the same thing - but, do you see any challenges with being a woman leader and if yes - if the answer is yes - how have you worked to overcome those challenges? NS: I appreciate that you took out the Utah component of that because there are two answers to that, and I might pull that back in in just a little bit. Yeah, I do see some challenges to being a woman leader. I personally don't see challenges to the extent of what we hear out there. Being a leader in various states has been a little bit of a different experience, to be honest. I think it comes down to what are women are used to... what is, men and women... let me rephrase that. Men and women, what are they used to seeing women as? 8 And so, here in Utah, a traditional role for a woman is support. She's the mom. She's doing important things. And I want to be very clear that I am in no way putting down working moms. I've been a working, or not... sorry. Working moms or stay- at-home moms. I've been a stay-at-home mom and it was fulfilling and wonderful, you know, and I've been the working mom. I've done them all. And, what's important for women is just that there's choice and they can choose what's best for their families and for them. So, I don't ever want anyone who reads this transcript or listens to this to think that I'm putting that down. But, in Utah the role of the woman typically, there's a dominant religion here; usually in that structure it's a support role. At home, you know, it's a support role. We talk about the head of the house and that's never considered to be a woman. And so, that carries over into the tone of the workplace, and I see it more here than I've seen in other places. I'll be in a meeting with people who are at a similar level as me in terms of leadership, but I will be asked to take notes. Or, I'll be in a meeting where I'm the only woman and it's men and they talk to each other and I have to really insert myself to be included in that. And I don't think that it is purposeful. I don't think it is because they are thinking to themselves consciously, “This woman, I don't want to talk to her,” or, “Let's exclude her,” [or] “This woman, all she's good for is taking notes.” I don't think that is at all it, but I do think it's what they're used to. It's just how things have been done, so it's what they default to without even really being cognizant of it. And, I'm sure in either of those situations, had I said, “Why are you asking me to take notes?” you know, they probably would have been taken aback. Or, “You guys are ignoring me. Is it because I'm a woman?” You know, they would 9 be taken aback. But, in all those cases it is because I was a woman; that is the reason. So, it's an interesting dynamic, but I don't there's any malicious intent at all. I don't think anybody thinks a woman isn't capable of doing it, but there's history and culture to contend with. That's not to say I haven't seen those things in other states; I just see it less. When you think of a leader, you think of Churchill, you think of a man, you know? You rarely picture a woman as a leader, and women lead differently. And women who do try to lead like men get a little lambasted for it: “She's a ...“ -- and they'll say a bad word -- “That's who she is because she's leading that way.” So, I think that culturally that is still a thing and something to be dealt with. But what I see myself is, men like you, Steve, that are very respectful, very appreciative of leadership, and not a woman or a man. That's what's out there. But, there's the one-offs, and they seem to happen more here than they do in other places. So, my biggest challenge is being taken as seriously as I think a man would. For instance, just this week this happened. I'd been trying to get a meeting with somebody on campus for six months plus, [the] constant “Hey, let's meet” and nothing happens. Marty needed to interact with this same person and [snap of fingers] he had a meeting within a week. And, so maybe there are other factors there, but I don't know what they would be. I don't know what's different between that. And I was invited to the meeting and he was embarrassed that he hadn't met with me and, you know, it's fine. But, just little 10 things like that that seem to be the difference, the gender, than something that they're comfortable with... comfortable talking to a man. So, that was the more comfortable thing for me to have this meeting. Maybe he's not comfortable having a one-on-one meeting with a woman and didn't want to say because that would seem weird, you know what I mean? You never know what the factors are. But, that tends to happen. So, feeling invisible at a table, I don't appreciate that. Seen as a support when that isn't my position is tough. But what I do - the next question here is what I do to overcome that - and I want to be clear, that is... these are not everyday things. The leadership here is tremendous and I feel very cognizant of giving women opportunities of being a part of that. So, I have appreciated that, but these things still happen. When they do happen, my number one thing is I don't take it personally. As I was saying, I don't think they're bad people. I don't think they're trying to be hurtful. I think if they knew they were doing that they would be upset that that is what happened. So, I don't take it personally and I just assert myself, you know. If I'm being ignored at the table, I just physically will pull myself into a conversation or say something to redirect the attention and continually do that. Just know that a little extra effort is required and that's okay. It's just how it is and that things are changing. I can see the tone changing. SP: Have you, in the almost year that you've been the director of the internship office... have you noticed that, in these meetings, for example, have you felt like you've had to alter your personality, but not in a way of not being true to yourself? But, do you feel you've had to develop certain areas, like 11 assertiveness for example, do you feel like... is that something that comes natural to you? Or, is that unnatural and you've had to learn because of different experiences? NS: That's a good question. Well, let me back up. Yes, I do. Assertiveness is one of those. I am assertive. I don't want... I also really value relationships. And sometimes those things can be at odds. So, something I'm developing as a leader is to identify when that’s appropriate and [when] to continue to be assertive, even if it's going to compromise a relationship. If something is more important, and when to continue doing that. Never aggressive. I would never want to be identified that way. I think that's just a leadership challenge as a whole, you know? And, maybe it's more of a personality thing than a male-female thing. I like Myers-Briggs. We just did that as a group. ENFJ: I am not the kind of person that wants to compromise relationships. I value them very highly and I think that's made me a good leader. But the downside is having those tough conversations that I get zero pleasure out of. I don't enjoy it and I will avoid them if I can. Which, in the past as a younger leader, has been to my detriment because then things don't get addressed that later become a bigger issue. So, I would identify that as one of the biggest issues and challenges of leadership, male or female. SP: Do you find leadership in the home, for example, versus leadership at work: is it sometimes hard to turn off your professional hat when you get home? Or, is it once you walk through the door, you flip a switch and all of a sudden, you're Mom? NS: That's a good question. We wear a lot of hats, don't we? I mean, I'm sure you 12 can think through your student, and professional, and father, and your church hat, and, you know, your husband [hat], and there are so many and it is hard to shift. So, I do catch myself managing my husband and my children and maybe being a little more of the task master than just being mom and getting on the floor and playing. I do catch myself sometimes: “Okay, let's take a step back.” That's not quite what you're asking, but to not take the stress home, the pressure of whatever needs to happen, or I've got a deadline coming up. Or I've got a hard conversation I don't want to have; how do I set that aside and then just come in? And I find, if we want to talk about women and men, I find men are better at that. Men can compartmentalize a little better. “This is my work time, this is my home time,” and they can manage that better. With women, we tend to take things as a whole. And so, I've worked on that, and I've watched some men in my life, some leaders I've had, and tried to emulate the way that they do that. Because it is better to just say, “Work is now, worrying about home right now isn't going to help me unless there is something I can do about it.” Or, you know, “Home is now. Worrying about work at home isn't going to help me at work, but it is going to compromise my relationships at home and what I value right now and right here.” SP: Thanks. Sorry for catching you off guard with those. NS: Oh, I like that. That's great. SP: What advice would you give emerging, let's say young women, young women leaders in order to be successful? NS: Well, the main thing, I would say this to any woman, young or old, but I like that 13 this is geared towards young women, is to not deny themselves their own feminine strengths. Women have unique strengths and women lead uniquely. Those are strengths. We don't have to behave like a man in order to be a leader, or fulfill a role that is typically filled by a man. To embrace our femininity and who we are. And, you can take that a step further and just say embrace who you are. Don't try to be something else. We should always be aware of what our weakness are and we should always be building them, but we're still building ourselves when we do that. When we try to be a way that we think a leader acts, we stop being a good leader. It's our natural selves: that's where that strength came from that put us in that position in the first place. So, we have to trust ourselves. I think women should trust themselves. We know through lots different kinds of data that women are hesitant to take risks. We don't want to fail. Just as an example, we've talked about this for applying for jobs: men will apply if they are like, 60% qualified. Women, it's got to be 100%, and we need to change that. So, I would challenge women to embrace, these young women, to embrace risk and be okay with that. If we hear “no,” that's not the end of the world. It doesn't define us as a failure. It gives us a chance to drive forward and keep going. And that mindset, growth mindset versus the fixed mindset, we want to embrace that growth mindset. That process of becoming. And failure, not doing something isn't a failure; I'm still continuing on with it, still growing, I just haven't done it yet. So, if I apply for something and I don't get it, “Well, not yet. But I'm going to keep going towards it.” And women need to embrace that and be good with that. 14 I mentioned it before, but to not take things personally. I started to talk about this before. I want to touch on that and I wrote it down in my thoughts relating to your next question, but understand that perception is very powerful. And so, as women -- and right now this is a hot topic -- we hear about it all the time that women need to be, women's issues need to be heard. Is there discrimination, inequality, and all of that? And there is a reason why that's out there. It is definitely something that is happening out there. But, when we use that as the lens that we see our own situations in, then we see it in that light where it may not even really be as bad as we think it is, you know? I mean, I've shared experiences where I know it happened because I was a woman, and that's unfortunate and not fair. But, if I take that and say, “This is how all of UVU is and everybody is treating me this way, every man in my life views me that way,” then that is to my detriment and to women's detriment if I start behaving that way. That's hurtful. Another thing my mom would always say - we moved around a lot, and everything was a big adventure: this is going to be fabulous. And she would say to us, “Whatever you expect to find, that's what you're going to see.” If I come into a situation expecting that the men around that table are not going to respect me because I'm a woman, and won't trust me because I'm a woman, then I'm going to see it. And it's going to impact how I interact with them and it's not going to go well. So, I go in to any situation, or relationship with somebody else, and maybe more importantly how I view myself, with a perspective of “Everything is great. I am going to be respected. I am going to contribute to this. I am going to make a difference.” With that expectation that they want that and 15 that's going to be contributing to them. That, I think, makes all the difference. We can't be victims. Sometimes we will be the victim, but we can choose to rise above that and make it better and continue on, or we can choose to lick our wounds and think everybody is horrible, and there is no power in that. There is no change in that. There's nothing good that comes from that. So, I would challenge those young women to be assertive. We're taught - and again I think this is a Utah culture that I see here more than other places that I've lived, so just in my experiences -- we're taught as women to not be assertive. We are taught to support. We're taught to nurture. Those are a little different, and very important, and good things to teach our girls. But we also need to teach them to be assertive, you know? To challenge something when it's not right. To ask for what we want and what we're worth. Another statistic that always upsets me with women - I take every chance I can to tell them to not be this way - is asking for... well, negotiating salary. Asking for a pay increase. Very few women do it; 6% of women, where 55% of men do it! And we will never get what we want if we don't ask for it. I think that, in part, that answers the wage gap. Men ask for it and women aren't. So, we don't get as much; we are probably offered somewhere around the same, a lot of the time. I think sometimes it just generally is not happening fairly. But, if we ask for it, we will get it. My last piece of advice, and this is an important one, is to find a mentor. I think women need a mentor. And it doesn't have to be another woman, although I think it is helpful, especially if you are in a position that is very maledominated. It is nice to have a woman who has negotiated that can help you 16 through it. A woman who is outside of your area so you can speak candidly with them. You know, outside of your organization so you can speak candidly and share what's going on without fear of being compromised professionally. And this is true for any, I mean it would be the same for young men. Find that mentor that you can talk to and guide you through the intricacies of making your way up the chain. That would be my advice. SP: Perfect. Anything else that you have on your mind? We've pretty much covered all of the topics. Anything that you want to add? If not, thank you again for taking time out of your schedule. NS: Thanks for the opportunity. I hope this is helpful. I appreciate ... I guess, when we talk about certain topics, it tends to skew, you know, maybe people's perception. But I want to be very clear that men and women are both so important in organizations. That uniqueness of thought and perception and approaches all work together. And so, it's your contributions as a male in my team I really appreciate and I appreciate having you on my team. And I think that, when we start to view people as people, with unique contributions, that's when we really are successful, male or female. So, thanks for the opportunity. 17