Oral History Program Sara Toliver Interviewed by Danette Pulley 5 February 2018 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Sara Toliver Interviewed by Danette Pulley 5 February 2018 Copyright © 2023 by Weber State University, Stewart Library Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description The Weber State College/University Student Projects have been created by students working with several different professors on the Weber State campus. The topics are varied and based on the student's interest or task for a specific assignment. These oral history assignments were created to help Weber State students learn the value and importance of recording public history and to benefit the expansion of the Weber State oral history collections. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Toliver, Sara, an oral history by Danette Pulley, 5 February 2018, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, Special Collections and University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Sara Toliver Circa 2018 ABSTRACT: This is an oral history interview with Sara Toliver, CEO of Visit Ogden. It is being conducted on February 5, 2018 at the Visit Ogden office in Ogden, Utah. The interviewer is Danette Pulley, MPC Student at Weber State University. DP: Sara, can you start by telling us about your background, childhood, teen years, where you grew up, family hobbies, etc.? A general overview about you. ST: I was born in Sacramento while my dad was in law school, but my family is from Ogden. We moved back shortly after I was born. I was about six months old when my dad graduated. I consider myself born and raised an Ogden native. I grew up with a pretty normal childhood. Not super involved in the community, which is interesting based on what transpired later. I went to local public schools. I graduated from Ogden High School. Went on a leadership scholarship to Utah State University. After I graduated from Utah State, I wound up working for a medical device manufacturer in their marketing department in Salt Lake. That was right before the Olympics so it was 19982000. It was pre-Olympic construction on 1-15, a nightmare to commute and it took twice as long as it should. I left after two years; even though it was a really great experience, it was a startup company. I was employee 21 or 22, somewhere in there, and by the time I left we had over 400 employees two years later. Very progressive, venture capital funded. I learned a lot; there were a lot of good opportunities there. It took its toll. I came back to Ogden and started my MBA program through Utah 1 State, with classes held at Weber State. When I came back there weren't a lot of job opportunities here. I went to work for my mom who was a book packager for Barnes and Noble in the "How To" genre. I was doing some marketing and PR for her. She had a building on Historic 25th Street. The owner of the building had been trying for years to get my mom to purchase the building. It wasn't a great place to be. I would say it was a little bit intimidating on the street still. As we talked and looked at opportunities, all of the photography that she would do for her books - because they were “How To” books, very visual and lots of pictures - required her to buy all of these props to use in the photography. You could only use them once or twice and then she would give them away or have garage sales. We started looking at the activity on 25th Street and decided that we needed to be invested in what was happening downtown and decided that a good opportunity would be to open a retail store with all of the props from the photo shoots. So, I took over the retail part and we opened our first store on September 14, 2001, three days after 9/11, which was not the best timing in the world for confidence of people being out and spending money. During that time frame and planning process we started to work with a lot of the business owners that were currently on the street. There weren't many that had been there for any length of time. Kym & Pete Buttschardt that own Roosters and Union Grill, and Heidi Harwood who owned Brewskies and the City Club, and Todd Ferrario had just opened another restaurant Bistro 258. So my Mom and I, with the three of them, started a business association 2 for the street to work together and try to push city government (at the time with Mayor Godfrey) to support the redevelopment of the street. The Olympics were coming and everyone could see the writing on the wall that we had some opportunities in front of us. On our personal side, we recognized that one retail store wasn't going to drive anyone down to shop. So we had plans to open five stores in five years; we opened three stores in three years. We chose not to open our concepts for the fourth and fifth stores. During that time, as we were working with everyone, primarily those I mentioned, we really started to see some activity happening downtown. I really can't say enough about our partnerships and what it led to. With the publishing company, we had graphic artists and a lot of talent, and the restaurants and bars had money to invest in downtown and were globallyminded and forward-thinking enough to each invest some dollars. We invested the time and design resources to start marketing the street. It wasn't "Come eat at Roosters" or "Come shop at Ruby & Begonia," it was “Come down to the street and see all that there is.” It really got the ball rolling for 25th Street. During that time, I had my twins, boy and girl twins, so it became even more important for me to be a part of where we live and give back where we live. I was raised here and grew up with the attitude of, this is a place that you get out as fast as you can. My parents wanted me to go out of state to school. They wanted me as far away as possible because they didn't feel like much opportunity existed here. I really love that it circled back around and created an opportunity for me to help where I live. 3 DP: Talk to me more about where that took you next. ST: So as all of that transpired, over the years we became more and more involved in downtown and I became very integrated with Ogden City Government and requesting and pushing for support, in a whole bunch of ways: in what you could term economic development ways and brainstorming of what could be. In 2006, my mom's publishing company, Barnes and Noble pulled all of the contracts, so we had to make some changes pretty quickly. We decided to sell the building that two of the three retails stores were located in. I was trying to decide what was next. My twins were 18-months-old at the time and I wasn't sure retail was where I wanted to be. I was trying to decide what was next as we transitioned out of my mom's publishing company. I was approached by a friend who was serving as the Interim Director for the County Visitor’s Bureau. The previous director had been gone for a few months and he came to me and thought I should apply. I looked into it, and truthfully, I wasn't sure all of what it was responsible for and the impact it had on the community. Once I realized the impact that tourism plays, and could play, and the give back to the community, I was very intrigued. I interviewed for the position and it was interesting because there were two final candidates from outside the area with a lot of destination management experience, and I was obviously from here. At the end of the day the board decided that the community relationships and investment in the community were more important, and I could learn the other pieces. So, they took a chance on me and I was hired towards the end of 2007 and had an 4 amazing team of five other people at the time who had really kept the organization running really well in the absence of a leader. They allowed me to come in here without any knowledge of what we were doing, and we all figured out what we should be doing. We took off and it's been an amazing 10 years. DP: I can't believe it's been that long. ST: I can't either. DP: With that history, what were some of the key experiences that along the way lead to you believe you were a leader? That is a pretty unique emergent pathway. So, what leadership experiences do you feel like were built on as those opportunities emerged? ST: That is a big question. I think that it's really got to be a culmination of a lot of things. I feel like probably, from my foundation, my mom. She is an entrepreneur and has reinvented herself a number of times. From that I saw that sometimes it's necessary to take risks, and that as a woman business owner sometimes you need to be a little more assertive in your leadership role if you want to be taken seriously in that respect. I watched that my entire life. My mom was very good about taking me along as a child. I worked trade show booths as a young girl and later in high school because Barnes and Noble is located in New York, which were fun for me, but I would also go sit through the meetings with her. Unknowingly, I just watched that for a long time, not really realizing that was my foundation. It came into play too in school because I always joked that one of the best lessons you can 5 learn is how you can come back after not succeeding at something. During school I always had aspirations to be super involved. A lot of my friends were athletes and I was not an athlete. So, I tried out for teams my freshman year and I didn't make any of them. I realized that wasn't the right path for me. I started running for student government, tried for cheerleader, and that didn't work either. Finally, my senior year I ran for student body office and that didn't work, but then I ran for senior class president and low and behold, finally! What a great lesson for me. And it eventually led to my scholarship at Utah State, which I mentioned was a leadership scholarship. We were super involved in the president's circle and that got me involved in the leadership at the university. With the job that I had in Salt Lake for the medical manufacturer, I had a tough boss. I was hired as the assistant for the product development manager. There were a couple of managers that really took me under their wing. I had aspirations for being involved in more, and they really handed me a lot of projects that I didn't have the experience or job title for, but they believed in me and helped me a lot. Then coming back to work for my mom, and being in that day in and day out, and taking the leadership role in pushing Mayor Godfrey for support -- it all came together, and one step led to the next without me really realizing it. I was 31-years-old when I was offered this job, which for this industry was incredibly young. I just never believed that I couldn't do it, I guess. That doesn't mean I wasn't afraid or worried, but I was resourceful enough to find the answers. Honestly, I was 6 just never afraid to ask the questions. I have had some great mentors in this industry that I really appreciate, those who have helped me learn. DP: For your mentors, would you say there were any female mentors? ST: There are not a lot of female mentors in this industry. There are females, but not a lot in CEO roles for destinations of any particular size. In some other states that's not the case, but in Utah most of the communities are run by men. There was one other woman who was very good to me. It was very interesting to watch her, and as I learned she was perceived by some as being a little too aggressive, so it was interesting for me to watch. It was interesting because I had never heard that feedback about my mom. I would say the ones that helped me the most were men. It is funny -- as I have gotten older I really thought that when I came in here, and in my roles before, I have always been on the younger end throughout my career. I have always blamed perceived bias or questions of my ability on my age or youth, but as I have gotten older, I don't have that excuse anymore. I was really naive to the different ways women are perceived in the workplace that I was just blind to for so long. DP: It sounds like that part of [being] at a younger age was because you were never told you couldn't. So, it wasn't ever gender-related. But as you've gotten older you have realized that culturally it was more influenced than you realized. ST: Right. I still feel like even now, even though I have been in this role for 10 years, there are a lot of environments where I still feel like I need to prove 7 myself. DP: Strictly on gender? ST: Yes. DP: So we are going to shift gears a little more to core values. How have your core values influenced you? What are your core values and how have they influenced your leadership experience and abilities? ST: I guess that I would say that my core values start with my work ethic. I watched both of my parents work incredibly hard throughout my childhood. There was never even a question of what that expectation was. I think that respect is obviously important, but growing older and learning what that really means and what you need to do to gain someone's respect for you. I was in a conversation the other day with a girl who was graduating from high school and heading into college and a group was giving some leadership lesson. The one thing that came to me was when you are in a leadership role your ability to remain humble and recognize that you always still have so much to learn. The environment is always changing, the team you lead in changing, the work environment and industry is changing. Recognizing you can't do things the same way all the time. The team you lead is full of many different personalities and each one needs to be encouraged and motivated and disciplined in a different way that resonates with them. You are always learning that and you are going to make mistakes. My parents always taught that if you aren't making mistakes you aren't learning anything. That ability to be humble and recognize that you always have more to learn is one of the best lessons I feel like I have learned. DP: For sure; it keeps you always looking. 8 ST: Yes. Recognizing that there are always people out there with knowledge, experience and ideas and opening yourself up to listen and learn. It is human nature to be a little bit protective or defensive of your place and position and knowledge. When you recognize the more vulnerable you are to open yourself up to feedback and ideas the better off you will be in the long run. DP: Name a person who has had a tremendous impact on you as a leader, maybe one of the mentors you talked about earlier. Why and how did this person impact your life generally and then [your] leadership specifically? ST: I've heard other leaders talk about having that leader that they've really leaned on. I feel fortunate because I feel like I've had so many. That is a really difficult question for me to answer. Obviously, my mom had an influential role that she played in my life. She set the foundation for everything. Along with learning the great things from a mentor, we all have our weaknesses and we are all different in the way we handle things, so I would love to learn certain pieces. The mentors in the industry and the part I took from them the most is how open and willing to share they were. Even though in the scheme of things they are competitors there wasn't anything off limits or protected, because we all sail to different destinations. Really it goes back to the experience on 25th Street, because I wasn't necessarily a direct competitor, but we were still competing over a community member's dollars; a lot of the lessons came from that. Coming into this job to learn not only the destination management but the political elements that I didn't even understand existed. I told one of the County Commissioners, who was on the hiring committee, that he gave me the bait and 9 switch because he hired me for a marketing job when really, I have a great team that gets to handle all of the marketing and my role is more about the political relationships. We are funded through visitor tax dollars. It is a big piece of what we do and I didn't have the slightest clue about how all of that worked. The interim director had worked as a county government employee and gave me some great tips and tricks on how to approach things sometimes. What I've learned and each of our elected officials has helped. I don't feel like I've had that one mentor. I have been blessed with many. One of the hardest parts is that everyone says it is lonely at the top and sometimes you feel like you are in it alone. I have felt incredibly blessed to have a support network of girlfriends that are involved in the community as well and understand the trials and challenges of doing what we do and are willing to listen, give insight and feedback. I don't think a lot of women leaders have that. DP: When you were talking about taking different elements from your mentors it reminded me of a quote: "You don't have to lose for me to win." It sounds like you had mentors that understood that to help you create a path. ST: Yes. It goes back to those product managers in Salt Lake. They would have been the ones to take the fall, but they saw that desire in me and were willing to take the risk. All of those things have shown me that you have to let other people take the risk too. Part of being a great leader is recognizing what your teams need from you and want from you. Your quote is so right. I have some employees that have aspirations of doing great things so I want to be able to get them ready for whatever that next phase may be. 10 DP: Yes, it's the idea of coaching for development. What do you see is the biggest challenge of being a female leader in Utah? And what do you do to overcome it? ST: I hate to say it truthfully, because I feel like sometimes it's an excuse or cliche, but I think every woman who has a family deals with that. I hate to say it because I feel like it is an excuse. I have a very involved husband who is an amazing dad and husband, but there is more resting on my shoulders, whether I put it there myself or it is given. In this job there are a lot of early morning meetings and evening functions, and my number one job is to be a mom. Balancing that -- in the friendship group I was talking about earlier, one of the ladies said, "Bullshit, there is no balance.” I couldn't agree more. I want to be there in the morning to help them get ready for their day, and the early morning meetings are hard to feel like I have to choose to be good at my job or be there for my kids. I really don't feel like a lot of men have that same pressure. When I go to these early morning meetings, I am one of a few or the only woman. When I have brought it up that the work day doesn't need to start at 7:00 am I get outvoted. It is a challenge. I do think our culture in Utah enhances that even more. So it has just been a little bit challenging. Anyone in a leadership role wants to give a 110% to what you do, and the math doesn't work out that way. Sometimes it's fear, but I feel like I have to work harder to gain the respect of both my colleagues in the industry and my community colleagues, so they know even if I'm not there or have chosen another priority that doesn't diminish my capabilities in my professional role. DP: So as a woman -- to recap, there are more conflicts where your personal and work 11 have to come to a place of decision. ST: I think so. I also want to remember that a lot of my foundation came from my mom dragging me around. I want to be able to do that for my kids too, without being looked at as "Now she's the mom because her kids are here," so it is identifying those opportunities. I do think the best part of what I do is, we are so community based. As a destination marketing organization, we sell a product that we don't have control over: the price, quantity or anything. But yet we have to package it and promote it. Because so much of it has community events, I do get to bring my kids into it. Hopefully that does teach them to give where you live. DP: I think culturally in Utah that was one of things you mentioned, that for women we make a lot of ‘or’ choices instead of ‘and’ choices. I think that feels like it is shifting to support ‘and’ instead of ‘or.’ But I think that is a culturally limitation. ST: I agree with you and think it is getting better as demographics change and generationally things change even though their core values are the same. It is a true statement “ the good old boys’ network is the good old boys’ network,” but that will continue to change. Those of us in these roles can pave a new path or set an example for those that are coming next for our daughters and sons. DP: Yes, to set an example for the AND. What advice would you give to emerge young women leaders in order to be successful? ST: Patience, is a big piece of it. I look back and I remember graduating from school and having these big aspirations and you just think that it is going to come a little more quickly and be a little easier. Well, patience and aggressiveness. You need to learn to know that you need to go after what you want, that it won't be handed to 12 you. But also, patience to put in the time and work to get to where you want to be. It's not just going to be handed to you. They go hand in hand. I go back to the humble factor. There is always a lot to learn. I think that is one of the hardest things for all of us in human nature to receive feedback in criticism and compliments to push you further. To recognize that if choosing to have a family is in your cards that balance is really tricky. Looking for the harmony. There are so many opportunities out there. Everyone should be doing exactly what they want to be doing. I have teenage kids that will have jobs that don't even exist today. DP: The yin and yang balance of humble and assertiveness. ST: They have to go hand in hand. As women, sometimes being aggressive can come off the wrong way. But not being aggressive enough can come off meek. Finding that balance where you are fighting for what you want in a respectful way so people will respect that. DP: Without the ability to show that assertiveness you may get looked over for roles that would typically be only given to a man. ST: For sure. That is still one of the challenges. And the belief in ourselves, the yin and yang of patience with assertiveness. Being humble and confident. I do think there has been a lot of talk about how do we get more women in leadership and political roles. I do think a lot of times women question themselves more than men do about whether or not they are capable or able to work out that balance. They aren't throwing their name in the hat the way they should be. That is also some encouragement I would give. The worst that could happen is you don't get it and learn something along the way. 13 DP: I think it is interesting that sometimes you don't throw your name in because as women you don't have a role model to show you how did you do it. Thank you for being that role model. ST: Thank you. I hope so. I think that is the ability to recognize the good from failure. We aren't going to win them all. If you can learn the lessons from what you can learn better. DP: What other insights can you share about being a woman leader in northern Utah? As you wrap the conversation up, and as you continue to look at your future and how this evolves for you what other insights would you offer, ask or hope for? ST: I think it is a hope for. I hope that my world and my opportunities continue to evolve. I hope that my daughter and my friends’ daughters and all our young women, or women who have chosen to now re-enter the workforce later, that they recognize the value in themselves and contributions they have to a community, a workplace and to any kind of organization that they choose to be a part of. Stop questioning their self-worth and the value that we bring to the table. The more we believe in that, and the capability to do that, the more it will change the world, and hopefully these questions and the answers I've given about being a woman in the workforce are just not a thing. It is a question that no one has to think about, what the difference is. I think that is all of our goal, whether it is pay or respect or values or contribution. I think if we look back on our great grandmothers and grandmothers, and even our mothers, we do have to recognize how far it has come. We all want it to come more quickly, but hopefully before long it isn't an issue. 14