Oral History Program Pamela Okumura Interviewed by Kaylie Astin 1 February 2018 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Pamela Okumura Interviewed by Kaylie Astin 1 February 2018 Copyright © 2023 by Weber State University, Stewart Library Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description The Weber State College/University Student Projects have been created by students working with several different professors on the Weber State campus. The topics are varied and based on the student's interest or task for a specific assignment. These oral history assignments were created to help Weber State students learn the value and importance of recording public history and to benefit the expansion of the Weber State oral history collections. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Okumura, Pamela, an oral history by Kaylie Astin, 1 February 2018, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, Special Collections and University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Pamela Okumura, conducted on February 1, 2018 at People Helping People by Kaylie Astin. Okumura discusses her experiences as a woman in a leadership position in Utah. KA: Do you want to start off by telling me your name and your position? PO: My name is Pamela Okumura. I am the Executive Director at People Helping People. KA: The first question is, can you tell me a little bit about your background? PO: Work history or personal? KA: Start with your work history. PO: Oh, my gosh, I am on my seventh full-on career change. I have done everything from selling to customer service to being a director of sales and marketing for a local company. I ran the Women’s Business Center for three years as the director there, then I decided I wanted to branch off on my own and do some consulting. I tried to go back into sales again, but didn’t have a passion for it. After working for the Women’s Business Center, I realized that my passion was really in nonprofit. KA: What made you decide you wanted to come here to People Helping People? PO: I actually just stumbled upon this job. I was miserable at what I was doing—I was in sales—and I joke that I had a mid-life crisis, and I couldn’t figure out what I wanted to be when I grew up, and I knew that something was missing. It wasn’t about the money; I wanted to be able to give back. I happened to be at a women’s networking group breakfast, and Kayleen Simmons, who was the founder of this program, was there. Kayleen and I had worked together when I 1 was running the Women’s Business Center, and she was on one of my committees, and so I knew of her, and I knew of People Helping People, and she happened to mention at the end of her presentation that she was hiring. I had known that three years before that, she was hiring, and she was looking at possibly retiring. So I went up to her and questioned her about it, and I went, “Huh! Timing is everything.” And so, lo and behold, here I am. KA: Okay, so what do you like about being here? PO: I love this organization. It fulfills everything that I’ve always wanted. What I loved about the Women’s Business Center was helping other women, and I’ve always believed in empowering other women. It was very different because it was entrepreneurship; teaching them how to start a business and run their businesses. This deals with a very different clientele. This is about our mission to get children out of poverty. We do that by focusing on single mothers and showing them the path to self-sufficiency through employment and long-term employment. This is a completely new area for me. I was in economic development before, and for this one, it’s figuring out our systems and how they work and getting women out of that poverty mode. KA: You must have seen some big changes in the people that you work with. PO: Huge changes. For those, it’s what we call the a-ha moments, when they have those a-ha moments and they realize that they can do it. It’s amazing to watch them blossom. It’s absolutely amazing. 2 KA: Great, thank you. What experiences did you have, either when you were younger or recently, that led you to believe that you were a leader or that you could be one? PO: Funny story, I was looking at the questions prior to this and it talks about your childhood, and I was painfully shy. People that know me now, they laugh and go, “Really?” I used to hide behind my mom, wouldn’t speak up. I was kind of that fly on the wall, “Please don’t pay attention to me,” and I’m not quite sure what happened. Maybe it’s my personality, I don’t know what sparked it, but all of a sudden, being able to realize that I have a voice, and that people will listen… And I never aspired to be a leader, necessarily. My natural progression and everything that I did led me on this path. KA: Was there a moment, or was it a gradual thing, when you realized, “Oh, I have a voice. People listen to me. I can make a difference.” PO: It was gradual. There wasn’t a specific a-ha moment; it was very gradual. It was one of those things where I would just show up, I would do what I needed to do for work, and realizing that my work was making a difference. That really happened to me. I started business consulting prior to coming to the Women’s Business Center, and it was amazing to me to have these business owners listening to me, and I think that’s what kind of sparked it and started it. Then it was just my natural progression, and doing what I do, and doing workshops, and doing public speaking. Those types of things have made all the difference in the world for me. 3 KA: What are your core values and how have those values influenced your leadership? PO: You know, this is a tough one. My core values are about living with integrity and being authentic, as authentic as I can be. Honesty obviously comes with the integrity portion of it. Those are my core values, and I live that way in my own personal life, and so it reflects in I can’t work for a company or go and do a job if I don’t believe in it, and I don’t believe there’s integrity there. I grew up with my parents always dedicating huge amounts of time at work. A 40-hour workweek is not normal for me. I witnessed my parents working more than 40 hours, and doing what it took, and so for me, I guess that was instilled in me, and so a 40-hour workweek for me is like, “What? That’s nothing.” I just don’t feel like I’m doing enough if I’m only working 40 hours. I’m not afraid to put in the hard work that needs to be done. That’s a big thing, especially in nonprofit, where we’re always overworked and underpaid. You have to have a passion for what you do, and that’s the other value that I have, is to be passionate about what I’m doing in every aspect of my life. KA: You mentioned earlier that you had a hard time with sales. Do you think there was a conflict of values there? PO: Possibly. I did sales before, and I was really good at sales. I was going through a major life transition, going through my second divorce, and for me it was about the money, and realizing that it wasn’t about the money for me anymore. I wasn’t money-hungry, and there has to be that drive to go back into for-profit sales. Because that’s what drives you as a salesperson is the money aspect of it. Don’t 4 get me wrong, I’m doing sales now as an Executive Director, but it’s for a cause. It’s for something I believe in, and maybe that’s the difference. I don’t know. It could be my age. Sales is a constant battle and a constant daily grind and it never stops. I’m a lot older than when I was doing it really heavily years ago. I just went, “You know what, this isn’t really fulfilling me.” KA: I think sometimes you’ve got to try something that doesn’t work to figure out what you do want to do. PO: Yeah. Sometimes you have to go back and figure that out as well. KA: Can you name someone who has had a big impact on you as a leader, and how have they influenced you? PO: This is a tough one, because I believe that there have been multiple people in my life, from managers that I had—some of the most memorable ones that have taught me certain things about being a leader and management. Maylan Francis, who was my boss way back when I was at AirTouch Paging, in my paging days. That just aged me in a big way. His boss, Mike Wallon, the way that they ran things, there were even those bosses that maybe weren’t the best, but still taught me value systems and things that I wanted to make sure that I either did or didn’t do. Companies, organizations like Verizon or AirTouch… AirTouch had the best company philosophy with their employees, trying to engage and keeping their employees. They were very much a part of the bottom line and understood the bottom line, and understanding that concept very early. I did have a personal mentor, Rex Falkenrath, who mentored me for four years and took time to get me on this path. We knew that I was going to be an 5 executive director; we didn’t know where and how and when, but he kind of helped to condition me and get me ready for this type of position. My brother, I remember one of the best things my brother ever gave me as far as advice when it comes to leadership is, you’re not their friend, especially when it comes to management and supervising. You’re not their friend, you’re their boss, and there’s a big fine line between the two. Because it’s so easy, especially in a smaller organization, to get really tight-knit, and it’s not about personalities, it’s not about whether I like you, it’s whether you are doing a job for me or not that I hired you to do. KA: I imagine that would be even more difficult in a nonprofit where people are there because they care, and so it’s a little more difficult to be the person who has to lay down the law sometimes. PO: It is, and I tell everybody all the time in nonprofit, “You’re going to be overworked and underpaid. You have to have a passion for this work. It’s the nature of nonprofit work. We cannot ever pay you what we truly value you as and what you’re truly worth. It’s just the regulations and the way that we have to run things, and so you have to love what you’re doing.” There’s a high turnover rate, and that can be very challenging. But I definitely, I have been so blessed, to be able to learn and be under Kayleen Simmons and learn everything. This woman is amazing. She created this program from scratch, 25 years ago. The funniest thing is that she’s never been a single mother, she was not raised by a single mother, she’s never been on welfare, she’s never been in poverty, but she had the compassion enough 6 and figured out that this system works. To figure out a program that will work to get these women out of it, that is above and beyond. She’s an amazing woman. I’m grateful that I get to learn from her every day. KA: It sounds like she’s inspired you a lot. PO: Very much. KA: What do you see as being some of the biggest challenges of being a woman and a minority leader in Northern Utah, and what do you do to overcome these challenges? PO: I think there’s a misconception about women leaders, and I think the biggest challenge is that, you know, it’s a man’s world. That’s how people perceive the way that we are and the state that we are. The whole MeToo movement that’s been going on, realizing that there are fundamental differences between men and women, and unfortunately, corporate America and most organizations are very heavily male-run. So there’s this misconception for those women that are leaders that we can do the exact same thing that a man does, or say the exact same thing, but we’re considered a witch, or we’re hard to work with. That’s probably the hardest battle. Even at the Women’s Business Center, I remember doing a radio show. We were live and it was a talk show, and we had call-ins, and I had a gentleman call in, totally berating me for being, number one: a woman being in the position that I was in, and trying to promote other women to take charge of their lives and to do something and to be women and leaders. And how dare I do that, because 7 women belong at home and need to be raising our children. There are those that think that way. What people don’t understand is that we can juggle multiple projects, we can juggle home life and work life, and the whole work-life balance, I think, is a misconception, because there’s never an equal balance. It’s being able to be ok with the way your balance is, whether it’s, “I’m going to strive to be more at home,” or whether, “I’m going to strive be more in my career,” and being ok with that. But there’s never an equal 50/50. We’ll never make it to that point. The scales always tip. I think that’s one of the hardest and biggest misconceptions. As far as being a minority, it’s funny. I grew up not realizing, because I don’t look in the mirror. I don’t have a mirror sitting in front of me. I grew up in a very predominant white, Caucasian neighborhood. I was one of four children in my entire grade school that was Asian. We represent less than one percent of the population here. What I have found is that it works to my advantage because when people meet me, they don’t forget me. Yes, it might be, “Oh, yeah, she’s the little Japanese girl.” That’s fine. I’m okay with that because they remember me. I don’t blend in with the crowd, and that’s okay. I’ve used that to my advantage. KA: You mentioned earlier how you had that person who was really adversarial about what you were doing. So how do you find the conviction to respond to that, and how do you deal with that in that moment? PO: I learned a long time ago that everyone is entitled to their opinion. I am not here to convince you otherwise. If that’s what your belief is, then great. It doesn’t 8 mean that’s what my belief is. I approach it in a way that that may work for you, but I’m sorry, I don’t agree with that, and that’s not how I’m going to live my life. He wanted to argue, and unfortunately, I won’t get into battles like that because it’s not my job to convince him that his way is the right way or the wrong way. If that’s what his belief is, then fabulous. I’m okay with that. KA: So you’re focused more on doing your job and helping the people that you’re helping, and not worrying so much about trying to prove yourself right, or somebody else wrong. PO: Yes, absolutely. If I went through life trying to convince everybody to think the way that I do, and to have my beliefs and my values, it will never work. Everybody’s entitled, it’s free will. You get to be the way you want to be. Either we can agree, or we can agree to disagree, but I learned a long time ago not to get really angry and try to instill my beliefs on them because they’re entitled to their own. KA: If you knew an emerging young woman or minority leader, what advice would you give them? PO: Persistence is the best word, and to have belief in yourself. Surround yourself with people that believe in you. Find those mentors, especially women. We’re not really good at reaching out and finding those mentors and asking mentors to actually mentor us. It took a lot for me to reach out to my mentor and say, “Hey, will you mentor me? I want what you have.” And while it was a male, I wanted what he had, and I was ok with that. But that doesn’t mean that I don’t have 9 women mentors in my life. And so, making sure that you surround yourself with people that have the same beliefs and are going to support you through this. You’re not going to get everything that you want, and it’s not an easy road all the time. There are hills and valleys in life, and you’re going to deal with barriers and obstacles, but [you need] to have that belief that you can do anything and everything that you set your mind to. And yes, one person can make all the difference in the world. Unfortunately, we as women—and I see it with my clients all the time, where they talk about, “I’m just me. I can’t make a difference.” Yes, you can. It’s the ripple effect. One pebble in a pond can make a complete ripple. Just persistence. Have that belief, and don’t lose that belief. KA: Do you have any other insights you can share about being a leader in Utah, especially? PO: For me, I truly believe that I wouldn’t be here today without networking. I believe that networking is a key component in everything that you do, whether it’s personal or business. Don’t burn bridges, and make lots of friends. Know lots of people because it will benefit you, because at one point, it’s like you and I. You worked as an intern for me at the Women’s Business Center, and you reached out to me. I feel privileged and blessed that you had thought of me. But it’s that network. If you hadn’t known me, if you hadn’t come and interned with me, you wouldn’t have thought to even ask me. I wouldn’t have the job that I do. I beat out 90 other applicants for this position, and it’s because I knew Kayleen and I had worked with her on a committee. She knew my background, and so I rose to the top of the pile to get interviewed, and I went through three brutal interviews with 10 three different board members, multiple times. So it’s a lot about who you know. Not necessarily what you know, but who you know, and so I would absolutely say, build your network. KA: That’s great advice, thank you. That’s all the questions I have on here, did you have anything else that you wanted to add? PO: No, not that I can think of. 11