Oral History Program Stella Hinckle Sand Interviewed by Deborah Dorris 01 July 1980 i Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Stella Hinckle Sand Interviewed by Deborah Dorris 01 July 1980 Copyright © 2014 by Weber State University, Stewart Library ii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in University Archives. The Stewart Library also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description The Weber State College/University Student Projects have been created by students working with several different professors on the Weber State campus. The topics are varied and based on the student's interest or task for a specific assignment. These oral history assignments were created to help Weber State students learn the value and importance of recording public history and to benefit the expansion of the Weber State oral history collections. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. 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It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Sand, Hinckle Stella, an oral history by Deborah Dorris, 01 July 1980, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Stella Hinckle Sand. The interview was conducted on July 1, 1980, by Deborah Dorris in the Hopkins Center. Mrs. Sand discusses her family history and a few personal experiences she has had throughout her life. DD: What is your full name? SS: Stella Hinckle Sand. DD: What is your date and place of birth? SS: I was born on October 8, 1898 in Chicago, Illinois. DD: What was your parents’ names? John William Hinckle and Grace Victoria Adelade Nichols Hinckle. DD: Did you have any brothers and sisters? SS: I had one sister, her name was Althea Hinckle. DD: Is she still alive? SS: No. DD: What did Chicago look like when you were a child? SS: Well, I rode on the trolley. The rest of the cars were pulled by horses. The street lamps were lit by tapers on the end of a long stick. They used to light the lamps every evening because we didn't have electricity. The lamps we had came out from the walls. We had a toilet that had a box holding the water way up high and we pulled a long chain that let the water pour down into the toilet. I went to a public school there and the nicest time of 1 the day was when we went to another school to take domestic science. We put our cooking in a little granite bucket to bring home to our families. And of course, that was a chance to go to another building and that was fun. And one time I got one of the girls that sat in front of me she turned around and made cross eyes at me and I made cross eyes back at her well, the teacher saw me because I was facing the front. Do you want some more on Chicago? DD: Sure go ahead. SS: I was born across the street from Lincoln Park that was the big zoo in the city. My mother took me there when I was a small child. I knew all the names of the animals in the park. I had never seen a real cow before; I didn't even know where milk came from. It wasn't until quite a bit later that I figured out where it came from. As far as I was concerned it just came in glass bottles. DD: Did you have any real good friends when you were younger? SS: I had one her name was Violet. DD: What did you do to have fun? SS: On Sunday afternoons my father would take us for a ride on the trolley. For five cents you could ride all day and all around the city. Another thing I remember, when I was a child we never had very many desserts so he would sometimes stop at the cookie factory and he would bring home a big bag of cookies for us to eat after dinner. We had a housekeeper, she was a dear lady, and she called us her poor little orphan girls; my sister and I were poor little motherless girls. She was very sweet to us just like a grandmother. I don't remember my mother at all. She passed away when I was four 2 years old. Just after she passed away my father put my sister and I in an orphan home because he couldn't take care of two such little girls. It wasn't a charitable institution, he paid for our upkeep. I remember going up the stairs of the institution and right after that my sister and me both had the measles and whooping cough. We were very ill. We had what was called a dumbwaiter. I still remember that dumbwaiter coming up to the third floor. There would be a plate with an orange on it. We would look so forward to having that orange, it looked so good. The dumbwaiter of course, was fascinating to a four year old. And if you were real good you got to have a little rocking chair with a great big doll in it beside your bed that was your reward for being good. I went to school there when I was six I was in the first grade then and I guess I was smart then because they put me in the third grade; I never attended the second grade. And then when I was about seven or eight years old that was when my father came and took me and my sister to meet his family in Ohio. I stayed on the farm and went to a country school that was a real experience to a city person. DD: Is that when you figured out where milk came from? SS: That is when I figured it out and that was also when I found out about Santa Claus. My sister and me were asleep and my cousin came in and I peeked with one eye and he brought in a doll for each of us. DD: What kind of chores did you have to do when you went to the farm to live? SS: I don't remember. I don't think I had any to do. There were plenty of other people to do them. Oh, I just remembered something else that happened when we were living on the farm. You know there is a little animal called a ferret. It is used for hunting. Some of the men were out hunting and the ferret went in the hole and instead of scaring the rabbit 3 out the other hole he caught the rabbit and stayed down there to eat it. They had to dig down about ten feet to get the ferret out. We women were waiting at the house with dinner on the table, and we were getting hungrier and hungrier and the men came home mad because they didn't get the rabbit and they had to dig the ferret out too. DS: Do you remember any stories or legends that originated where you were from? SS: No, not that I remember. DD: Did your relatives tell you any scary stories to make you do what they wanted you to? SS: Oh, my father used to say if we weren't good he would get us a mean old stepmother. And in those days there was an old man that would come around and say, "Any rags, any bottles, any old iron today? He had an old cart with his sacks on it. If the ladies had anything they wanted to sell him they would give it to him and he would give them a little money for it. I was always afraid that if I didn't behave myself I'd get put into one of those gunny sacks. Another time ice was delivered in wagons and at the back of the wagon there was a weight hook that was used to weigh the ice and to load and unload it. My father told me not to get on the wagon but, of course, us kids wanted to eat the ice on the way to school. I got up there and when I jumped down I caught the hook in the top of my head and pulled out the hair about an inch and a half across right out at the roots. I was on my way to school so I went to the girls’ room and I covered that right up. I had long hair then so I covered it right up and I never told my father because I knew I'd get a spanking and I also knew that I deserved it. I had a good father, I got lickens but I deserved them and I never held it against him. DD: Did you stay with your father until you grew up? 4 SS: From the time I was seven until I moved to Indiana with my cousin. When I was thirteen my father decided that he didn't want me and my sister to run out on the streets. You know there were saloons and the women would go down the allies with buckets of beer for their husbands the foam would slosh out and run down the sides. My father said that he didn't want me there so we moved to Indiana, into a small town called Valpraso. My father went back and forth commuting to work. DD: Do you remember any of the boyfriends that you had? SS: I didn’t have any boyfriends. The first date I had in high school was for the junior-senior banquet. I was sixteen then. In those days the kids didn't date like they do now. I have a fifteen year old granddaughter that just discovered boys. So she was wondering what she was going to do all summer, and then all of the sudden when she got into junior high this summer she said "this is going to be the best summer ever!" And so they have been planning parties all summer. But I didn't have that experience. DD: Were you married or are you married now? SS: No, my husband passed away a year and a half ago. I was married for forty-six years old when we got married. He lived to be almost ninety-two and we had a very happy marriage. DD: How many children did you have? SS: I just had one daughter and her husband is the one who teaches at Weber State, in fact, my daughter has taught out there. She taught out there until her husband became the Chairman of the English department. He said that he had to keep his skirts clean so she quit. Last summer they went to Europe and now she is studying foreign languages 5 so she can be a high school teacher. They both could speak German and French but now she is learning Italian and Spanish. DD: Do they have any children? SS: They have just one daughter. I wish they had more. DD: What is your daughter's name? SS: Althea, after my sister. DD: Did she ever do anything that was real cute? SS: Did she ever! One time she decided to run away. So she packed her little doll suitcase; she was about five years old then. Anyway, I asked her what she was going to do for food (my husband owned a grocery store then) and she said that she was going to beg in the streets. She went down to Carrie’s house, she was another one of have a visitor, and she told me that she'd be ready for her. So when Althea got there Carrie told her that she would be glad to have her but that there was only one room but that she was welcome to share the doghouse with her dog Buddy. So Althea decided to come home. I could never bake cakes. Whenever I tried they came out in the shape of a bathtub. Althea was used to this. One day we went to a friend's house and her cake didn't turn out either and Althea said "that's ok, they are just like my mom makes! When my daughter was six we moved to Long Beach, California. About that time my daughter got a room in out double room garage and she liked to spend time alone out there so she put this sign on the door, Quiet please, genius at work! I told you that my husband was forty-six when we got married. He was the best man for his two brothers and his sister previously. Well, anyway, he came over to this house that I was living in (I was teaching 6 school at the time) and he came to be best man at his brother's wedding (his brother was marrying the daughter of the family that I was living with). It was my job to greet the guests at the door, that was where I met my husband at. DD: How long did you know him before you married him? SS: Three and a half years. But you see he lived in another town than I did. I didn't get to see him except on weekends. There was a girl that I was living with and she had a boyfriend that was at our apartment every morning, noon and night. We figured out that in the three months that they had known each other they had more time together than we did in the three and a half years we had known each other. We were married in Independence, Iowa, that was my home. It was a little home wedding. And it was in 1933, the year of the Chicago World's Fair so that was where we decided to take our honeymoon. While we were there we found a house that we could buy for the back taxes that were owed on it. We bought the house for $242.00. It was sitting on a half acre of land, too. My husband was very nice. He let people charge groceries and stuff so when it came time to get the work done on the house the people that owed him money came and did it so all we had to do was pay for the materials. We had a bathroom put in it, hardwood floors, and electricity. It was a nice little place. And there we lived and our daughter was born there too. We lived there until we moved to California. We decided to wallpaper the place. My brother-in-law said that he would show us how to do it. So he came over, did a little bit and then left us to it. So we were going to paper the ceiling first and as you can guess the ceiling is the hardest thing you can paper. It took us all day long to do it. Then I decided to do the bathroom. So I went to the hardware store and bought some paper with water lilies on it. I did it and I thought 7 it looked good until my brother-in-law told me that it was upside down. So I went and bought some more and I re-did it. DD: What was Long Beach like when you were living there? SS: Well, we went there in 1941, just before Pearl Harbor. There was all kinds of things going on. Almost every night we had blackouts because we didn't want the Japs to know where we were. We had to keep the shades pulled down etc. There was an airplane factory there. I got under the bed one night because it was so bad. My husband was out on the roof because he didn't want to miss any of the fireworks. People were very scared then. We all liked the beach. We started going in February and we went almost every day until Thanksgiving. After a while your blood gets thinner and you can't stand the cold. It was then that I took up fishing, I really enjoy it. They had a couple of long piers to go fishing on and I threw out my line and when I had pulled it in One of the thing I experienced while living in California is that all of the people that you know from the rest of the country know you very well and they want to come and visit you. Of course they have to see Disneyland, Hollywood, Knott's Berry Farm, Marineland, the Glass Church. DD: Was the Navy base there then? SS: Yes, we took some people on the Missouri and a couple of other ships before they were sank at Pearl Harbor. DD: How long did you live in Long Beach? SS: Twenty years DD: When did you move away? 8 SS: We moved in 1958. I worked for Douglas Aircraft Company. I was a math graduate from Iowa and that qualified me to work in the computer department. My job was taking quotas for each department of how much materials they needed to run each area. The company was building a new plant in Tulsa, Oklahoma and they needed to know what and how much to buy for each department. DD: When your daughter was a teenager was she any different than you were at the same age? SS: Altogether different. You ought to see the difference between her and her daughter. DD: Like what is different? SS: Well, for one thing she cares more, she is a lot smarter, and they have so many more experiences than we had, they also have the television and the phonograph. They date earlier, they have their own opinions they are glad to share their experiences for free. My daughter was different she was easy to govern. All I had to do was frown at her and she would cry. You could flay out my granddaughter and it doesn't faze her. Her parents are very good natured and they are constantly asking "Where did we get a daughter like her?" Of course, she got it from me because I am very determined to get my way. She also has a grandmother on the other side that is just as determined as I am so she comes by it naturally. DD: What was your happiest experience? SS: I guess when my daughter was born. Yes, I think it was because I was in my thirties when I got married and I wanted a home and a family. I was teaching and I wanted my own family. We were married forty-six years. I've lived in eight states during my life. 9 DD: What states did you live in? SD: Well, I lived in Illinois, first, then I lived in Indiana, then I lived a year in Ohio, then in Denver, Colorado, then California, then Utah, and finally Wisconsin. My husband and I liked to fix up run down houses and then sell them. That's what we did when we lived in California. The houses usually didn't need anything other than papering or painting. I have never lived in a house for more than eight years in my life. I've been kind of a roamer but it's been fun. DD: Is there any reason for your first name being Stella? SS: No particular reason. My full name is Stella Grace Hinckle Sand. My mother was born in England. I went to England right after I got out of school. There was a company setting up a tour going there. There was 537 people on the tour to go to England. I got to visit my mother's birth place. Some of the interesting things that happened while on the trip was one of the passengers died while we were on board. They were going to take his ashes to the states. Well, one of the ladies on board had the morbid idea that she had to know where the guy's ashes were so she asked the captain. He told her that they were under his bed. Needless to say, she didn't go anywhere near the captain's cabin for the rest of the trip. Imagine all of your meals the round trip, and everything except your tips for $550.00! It cost just that much just to travel by plane now-a-days. She also brought her two older brothers. My mother was thirteen when she got here. My great grandfather settled in Chicago. He owned a lumberyard and a stone quarry. When I went to the little shoe shop across the street from my mother's home asked the little old man that was running it if he remembered the family that went to America. He said yes he even remembered the day they left. Of course, they were on a sailing ship 10 and it took them quite a bit longer to get here than it does today. When she got to America she got a sewing job for the more wealthy of the community that she lived in. DD: What religion are you? SS: That brings up another interesting subject. I was baptized in the Episcopalian Church, it was my mother's Church. Then I moved to Chicago and there was a Congregational Church that my father took my sister and I to. Then I moved to Indiana and I was living with my cousin and she was Methodist and finally I married my husband and he was a Lutheran and now I'm living with my daughter and she is LDS. But I am a believer in Jesus Christ and I consider myself a Christian. I live as best I can. I sin just like everyone else but I do call myself a Christian because I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and I believe he saved us from our sins. DD: Aw, that's nice and I like that. SS: You know that the hardest thing to live in any religion is? Love thy neighbor as thyself. You can love the Lord, you can follow Jesus Christ, but to love your neighbor, especially when some of them are so obnoxious, is a hard thing to do. And the ones that do so much mean things to us and you have to turn around and love them. My husband loved to play poker. All the guys that got together to play needed another man to play so they were sitting there trying to figure out who they were going to ask and they heard a knock on the door. So they thought it was the guy who had cancelled so my husband yelled "Come on in you son-of-a-gun and in the Preacher walked. In the days of Prohibition it was almost impossible to get the wine for the Communion so they sent to Chicago to this certain place to get the wine. One time the station-master called down to the Church and told the Preacher to come and get his box of books. The whole town knew 11 what was really in the box of books but they never said anything. I was going to tell you about the coffee. You know Mrs. Folgers the lady on the TV coffee commercials well, she and my husband went to school together. Anyways, the Swedes are really fond of coffee. And by the way she says that the best coffee is raised in the high altitudes and she is right. My husband had six or eight cases of coffee and they came in twenty-five cent sacks then. And the best coffee can be identified by the bean before it is ground you can also tell where it was raised. The best coffee comes from Bolivia, Bogotá, and Columbia. Those are the high plateau countries that grow the best coffee. One time a man came from Chase and Sanborn Coffee Company and he tried to sell my husband some coffee. My husband reached under the counter and pulled out a scoop of his coffee and showed it to the man and he said" I can't compete." And he left. In those days you could buy the best coffee for sixty cents a pound and they had some for twenty-five too. Ok, I'll tell you what happens on the fourth of July in a small town. There is a big parade first with the big band (my husband played the biggest instrument in the band, the bass drum.) then they would play games and then they would eat. DD: Did they have fireworks? SS: No, other than what the kids were doing. DD: What kind of games did they play? SS: Three legged races, Red Rover, and Mother May I. When my husband was a boy he worked for a doctor. He cared for the team of horses that belonged to the doctor. That was in the days before the automobile. He would get the team out and get them harnessed at five in the winter and four in the summer. My husband's job included feeding the horses, exercising them, and he loved to ride bareback so he would do that 12 then too. When the doctor would have to go to a patient's house my husband would drive the doctor to the house. My husband would sit in the wagon even in the cold because it was better than going in the house and having to come back out again and get used to the cold all over again. One time the doctor had to treat one of his patients for Black Diphtheria well as a result a little while he caught it and eventually died. While he was sick he wanted to see his horses so he had my husband walk the horses out in front of the doctor’s house. DD: What is Black Diphtheria? SS: I don’t know, all I know is that it is worse than the regular kind. Well, the doctor passed away and my husband worked in the livery stable for a little while after that. There they broke horses from Texas, those horses are hard to break. One time one of the bosses was working with one of those horses and the horse just kind of reared up on his hind legs and if my husband hadn't hit the horse with a whip that the horse would have killed the boss. Oh, back to the doctor’s horses. They were a matched set of Bays. Their names were Pet and Pete. My husband had trained P I think it was to raise her foot when he would say "Shake". Soon after the doctor died the horses were sold. It was many years afterward that my husband saw Pet and he walked up to her and said 'Shake' and she raised her foot. She remembered and even though she was blind she still did it. My husband worked for the railroad for a while too. And back in those days you got two dollars a day when you worked ten hours a day six days a week. Well, the Gypsies would come through town and come into my husband's store and he would give them the not to fresh vegetables and fruit. Well, one day this old Gypsy woman said "if you'll give me a bag of sugar then I'll tell you your fortune." She told him he'd live 13 to be eighty-four. My husband laughed because he had just had the ‘flu and he also had a weak heart. He tried to go into the Service and they turned him down three times. I kidded him all those years that he had to live to be eighty-four to prove the Gypsy right. He lived to be ninety-two. And then the Hobos would come and they would ride the rails and they would come to my husband’s store. I guess they had the towns marked where they could get food. They always came to my husband's store and he would always give them something to eat. There was a room over the Waterworks where they would stay and cook their meals and they would sleep there and they would be gone the next day. I was never afraid of the Hobos because my husband was a friend of theirs. He gave them food and things when they needed them. My husband was standing outside of the store talking to one of the Hobos and one of the Deacons of our Church walked up and after the Hobo left he asked "Would you really talk to one of those would you?" And my husband said "Why not they are a lot better men than some I know." The congregation of the Church we went to was taking up a collection to buy the Pastor a new car and they asked my husband to contribute. Well, My husband refused and he said," I will contribute for a worthy cause but I won't contribute when the Pastor has a perfectly good one now." One time he was an officer in the Luther League that is a young people's organization. Anyway, one of the preachers asked him to ask his group to contribute a certain part of the amount needed to remodel the Church. Well, my husband found out from one of his friends that owned the lumberyard that it was actually going to cost two to three times more than they had previously stated. So my husband said that he would not tell the group that. So the next day this lady stood there and said that she was glad that he had stood up to them because she couldn't. One 14 time he made coffee for the Leaguers and you know that the Swedes can make coffee and they will even tell you how they do it. They break an egg into a bowl and then they add a heaping teaspoon of coffee for each cup of water and then they measure out the water for the pot. They put this all in the pot and let it come to a boil and when it is done the grounds stick to the egg and you come out with the clearest coffee that you have ever seen. There is no caffeine in it and it is really good. He made it for the League one time and one of the Leaguers came up and said “Who is the woman that made this coffee?" My husband said I did but my mother showed me how. His mother was a typical Swede. She could make the best cakes they would raise up over the sides of the pan every time. She didn't even use a recipe. She would put a piece of brown paper in the oven and then time how long it took the paper to turn browner. She could tell by that when the oven was ready to go. Imagine trying to cook that way! Now I'll tell you a skunk story. One time these people were remodeling their house and the lady walked into her kitchen and there was this skunk sitting there. She had heard that it the tail is down they can't spray. So she used a broom to push the skunk into a corner and then started to scream for help. Finally twenty minutes later someone heard her and they told her to take the broom away so they could get to the skunk out of the kitchen. She did and the sunk lifted up his tail and sprayed everything. In the days before inside toilets some of the boys in the neighborhood (I don't think my husband was on it) they would go up and turn this old lady's privy over. So one day she just got tired of it and she spread some of the contents on the outside of the privy. Needless to say, that was the last time the boys turned her privy over. DD: That was a smart old lady. 15 SS: My husband's father and mother’s last name was Olsen. In the very same town was a man who was a total dead beat and he had the same name as my husband's father did so when he came to the United States he took his military name. See, in Sweden they have compulsory military service and there are so many Olsens, Petersens, Johnsons and everything that they give everyone another name. So when my husband's family came over he took his military name of Sond which when it is Americanized it becomes Sand. Well, a couple of months ago someone tried to sell me a book on the Sand family history. They said they had found my name and a whole bunch of relatives that I didn't even know I had. My name isn't even really Sand! Now I'll tell you about a Swedish Christmas. The Swedes have a tradition. There was a Christian Saint named Saint Lucia and she gave her dowry to the Christians there and the other people were like heathens and this was in the fourteenth century. She was burned at the stake because she loved these people enough to give them her dowry. So on the thirteenth of December they have a festival to honor her called the St. Lucia festival. The town people vote on a girl between the ages of sixteen and eighteen to portray St. Lucia on that day. She dresses up in a long white gown and she also wears a crown that has lighted candles on it. There is a big gathering where hundreds of people come to see the crowning. She has her attendants and everything. The oldest girl in the house gets breakfast for everyone in her family and she has to visit all of the Senior Citizens in town before Christmas Eve. And then on Christmas Eve they have all the presents open and in those days they didn't have trees so they made a tree of candles. They would take a wire and have branches running off of it and at the end of each one they would have a candle holder. And they would use greenery too. They have Christmas dinner and I'll tell 16 you what it is. It's a fish called Srockfish and it is white when it is caught and then it is dried hard you know solid and they are kept in a barrel outside. Well, I saw some before I ever married my husband and I thought they were firewood, I didn't know they do it for the people if they wanted him to because they put lime on it and certain other things. And it gets real flaky like Codfish or some other kind of white fish. Except when you cook it smells really strong, in fact the first time I cooked it I got so sick to my stomach that I couldn't eat any of it. And that is what they have and it is creamed and they have it over mashed potatoes. They have a berry called a Lingenberry that is very much like our cranberry only it is smaller. They make a sauce out of that and my husband would eat it over his mashed potatoes. He liked it and ate it that way all the time I never could. And then they have a Swedish pudding that is something like our cheesecake. It is made out of whole milk and then they put in a rennet tablet and the milk curdles and it is sweet and they put in eggs and sugar and then they pour on a raspberry sauce. Then they have little brown beans that are raised in Sweden and they can get those and then they have a special kind of cheese and last but not least a rice pudding; and that is the menu. If there is a lot of kids then they won't get to bed until midnight. And then they have to be up at five to get to church. The Church is on a high hill and it has a bell in the tower that rings to tell the people when church starts. The farmers come to town from miles around and the women and children sit in the back of the Chapel in the hay and fall asleep. I can still remember the time that my brother-in-law had to go and fix the organ at the church so that the services could continue. And another time my sister inlaw was standing on the hill and her hat blew off and it rolled down the hill. She said “I like that hat but I'll be darned if I'm going to chase after it. About two weeks later 17 someone found her hat and returned it to her. This lady had some geese and the man next door was making some mash and the geese went over and ate some of it and got cock eyed. They came home and laid down and looked to all the world dead. She went out and said well might as well pluck the down to use for stuffing pillows and stuff. So she plucked them and then the geese came to and here they are walking around with no feathers. The lady went to bed and she thought about those poor little geese with no feathers so she got up the next day and knitted each one of them a little coat. DD: Stella you are a very fantastic lady and I'd like to thank you for your cooperation on this project. You've had a very interesting life thank you for sharing it with me. SS: You are welcome I've enjoyed talking to you. 18