Oral History Program Buell Lyon Interviewed by George Klipper 14 December 1974 i Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Buell Lyon Interviewed by George Klipper 14 December 1974 Copyright © 2014 by Weber State University, Stewart Library ii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. 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It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Lyon, Buell, an oral history by George Klipper, 14 December 1974, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Abstract: This interview is being conducted by George Klipper for the oral history project at Weber State College, Ogden, Utah, The interviewee is Mr. Buell Russell Lyon. The interview is being conducted at 976 East 5575 South in Ogden, Utah, on December 14, 1974. GK: Now, Mr. Lyon, will you give us a general background of yourself: where you were born, where you were raised, where you were educated, a little something about your parents and your brothers and sisters. BL: I was born at Whitesburg, Hamblen County, Tennessee, April 26, 1900. My father's name was Andrew Abner Lyon, and my mother was Mary Welch. As a youngster, I lived in several different localities in Tennessee, north Georgia, and western North Carolina. I attended most of the grades in schools in Tennessee, finished grade school, and went to high school at Bryson City High School, Bryson City, North Carolina, Swain County. I attended Wake Forest College for one year and transferred to Georgia School of Technology where I studied civil engineering. I have two sisters one of whom now resides in Bryson City, North Carolina, and the other in Rossville, Georgia. GK: Mr. Lyon, what was your attitude and feeling about the war in Europe that started in 1914 when you were a young man? BL: Well, actually, there wasn't too much concern about it until shortly before the United States entered the war. Then, of course we felt that we had a job to do, and the only thing to do was get in and get it over with as quickly as possible. So at the age of 18, I enlisted in the Navy. Actually, in the Naval Reserve; and I had active service from May 1 15, 1918, until July, I believe July 14, 1919. I was in the Naval Reserve for the remainder of the four years. GK: Where did you enlist at? BL: I enlisted in Raleigh, North Carolina, which is the capital of the state, and had a week or two of training at the old Portsmouth Naval Base, Portsmouth, Virginia, transferred to the Naval Operating Base at Hampton Roads, Virginia, where I completed my basic training and went through the signal school. I served on the U.S.S. Georgia from approximately August 1, 1918, until about December 1, transferred back to the Naval Operating Base at Hampton Roads and was there until February of 1919 when I was assigned to the U.S.S. Nevada and served on it until July 1, 1919. GK: Let me ask you some Questions about your initial basic training in the Navy. What mode of transportation did you have going from Raleigh to Portsmouth? Was this government furnished transportation or private? BL: We travelled by train. The government furnished the tickets. Actually, I was first interviewed by a recruiter at my home town of Bryson City, North Carolina, went by train from there to Ashville where a Naval Recruiting Station was located and had the physical examination and other preliminaries at Ashville and went on to a state or regional recruiting station at Raleigh where we took the oath of enlistment. I was joined at Ashville by a few other recruits and at Raleigh by several more, and we travelled from there by train to Norfolk, which is just across the river from Portsmouth. GK: Could you tell us a little bit about the type of training that was provided for the new recruits; the different seamanship courses and military training? 2 BL: In the basic training, we received a lot of infantry training: a lot of drilling, inarching, the manual of arms, and some basic training in seamanship. Our textbook for the seamanship was the old Blue Jacket's Manual which, incidentally, is a very good book of its kind. We were taught to tie a number of knots, we were taught to read and box the compass, taught how to make soundings for the depths of water, and some navigation and nautical terms with which we were not familiar at that time. GK: Sir, the slang and the jargon? BL: Right. Exactly. GK: Did they give you any classes in propaganda? What I mean is any instruction on how the Germans were operating at the time, methods of combating them, and any political propaganda such as the old slogan, “Kill a Hun”, and something like that. Did they instill this into you or was this something that just came about naturally in the war? BL: No, I don't recall that they had any of that particular kind of training. We were taught, of course, that the German submarines were after us and that we had better get them first. GK: Was the Navy impressed with the German operations of the submarines in the Atlantic, or did they think that it wouldn't be too hard fighting them, or did they have a certain amount of respect for this warfare? BL: Well, I suppose you would say that they did have quite a bit of respect for it because we lost a number of ships. And I remember our gun crews were taught and trained when they saw something which was not immediately, well whether or not it was immediately identifiable, the orders were to shoot first, ask questions afterwards. So they fired at just about everything we saw out at sea. Driftwood, seagulls sitting on a plank. Right. 3 GK: Right after you finished your basic training, what was your next operation? BL: I was one of a number of young men who were selected for the signal school also at the Hampton Roads Naval Base. At that time in the Navy, the signal division did not include radio communications. That was a separate branch. We were taught the semaphore flag system of signaling and also the flag hoist system. We were also taught the old Morse code which was used both on the radio, wireless telegraph as we called it at that time, and also was used with blinker lights or search lights. GK: Did they use rockets at the time, also—different colored rockets for signaling? BL: Not to my knowledge. GK: What was your next assignment after the signal school? BL: I was sent to the battleship U.S.S. Georgia, in the signal division, and our assignment on the Georgia was to accompany the troop ships overseas. We traveled in convoys. GK: What was the Georgia's home port? Hampton Roads? BL: Norfolk, Virginia, was the home port, and we would go from Norfolk to New York and there we would meet troop ships and sometimes one or two other battleships, nearly always a few destroyers and on one or two occasions some submarine patrol boats. We would leave New York harbor in formation with all of these ships; and normally, one or two days out, the submarine patrol boats would turn back and come back into port and probably some of the destroyers would come back. The troop ships with one or two battleships and one or two destroyers or maybe a battleship and a cruiser and one or two destroyers would precede overseas to within one or two days of some of the European ports. There we would be met by French and British warships who would then 4 accompany the troop ships on into port. I understand, and I think this is correct, that when we left New York the senior officer, an Admiral if there was one aboard one of the ships, or the senior Captain of one of the ships would travel under general orders to sail in an easterly direction; and on the second or third day out of port in the presence of some of his senior officers, he would open sealed orders. That was the first time anyone knew definitely where we were going, whether we were headed for Brest or for another French port or for one of the British ports. GK: Where would Brest be? It's in France in… BL: That would be spelled B-r-e-s-t. GK: B-r-e-s-t. Were any of the ships in the convoy of other nations such as the French, or were the convoy’s strictly American merchant ships, battleships, and fighting ships? BL: All the convoys ever I was in were completely of American ships. There were some British ships that were used as troop ships, and I think on a few occasions there were probably some British war ships that may have been over here and went along with the convoy. GK: But in the main it was mostly American... BL: American ships. GK: American ships. BL: You asked a question earlier about the submarine warfare. I remember on one occasion we had gone over with a convoy of troop ships and were on our return trip; and on that particular day, I was standing watch with a group of other men as lookouts up in the tower of the battleship watching for submarines or whatever we might see. At this time, 5 the officer who was in charge of the watch instructed us to keep a very sharp lookout. He said we are off the coast of North Carolina in the most dangerous waters we had been in since we left New York. It may be rather surprising, but we lost more ships just off the American coast near the New York harbor and off the coast of North Carolina and Virginia than we lost out in mid-ocean for example. The submarines operated mostly not too far from shore. As far as I know, their base of operation in the North Carolina-Virginia area is still a mystery. I've never learned from where they operated. GK: What was the procedure when say a submarine was sighted or a suspicious floating object? I imagine general quarters were called out. What was your billet? Where was your place of duty when general quarters were called out? BL: Let me back up just a little on that. In the convoys, the ships changed their course every seven minutes; and if there was anything suspicious at all, they changed their course every five minutes. The reasoning being that it took approximately seven minutes from the time a ship was sighted by a submarine for it to get ready to fire; and by the time seven minutes was up, the ship would be travelling in another direction. Then if something was sighted that was suspicious, everyone was called to their general quarters. My station was on the signal bridge; and again, the gun crews were ordered to shoot at whatever they saw and leave the investigation to the future. They took absolutely no chances; and also, under circumstances of that kind, the ships increased their speed to the maximum speed of the slowest ship. They stayed together, but they speeded up more than their regular cruising speed. GK: Now when the convoy would change direction, would it change en masse, the whole convoy? 6 BL: Generally, yes. GK: So there were no ships that went one way and others went the other way. They all generally stayed... BL: Stayed close together. Yes and changed course together. GK: Was this sort of a zig-zag type of maneuver? BL: Yes. Yes, but it was varied enough that it was unpredictable I would say to any enemy ship because sometimes we'd make a sharp turn to the left or a sharp turn to the right and sometimes we'd make a practically a 180° turn and go in the opposite direction from where we were going. GK: What were the main armament weapons that you used for defense against the submarines? BL: Well, the chief weapon for submarines were the 3" and 5" guns. The troop ships had these smaller guns and so did the battleships. GK: Did they have anything as a depth charge in those days? BL: Oh, yes. Yes, they had the depth bombs, and I know the battleships were equipped with them, and at least some of the troop ships were. GK: This was, I imagine, this depth charge was kind of a hit and miss type thing. They just sprayed the area, and at a certain depth they would go off. BL: That's correct. GK: Did it have the sonar of later years? 7 BL: I think not. There was some kind of a timing device or either that or a depth device so that the ships practically dropped them from the stern of the ship, and they would detonate at a sufficiently later time that the ship which had dropped the charge was out of the danger zone. GK: You mentioned the other day when I first talked to you about your ship having aircraft aboard it. Could you describe the aircraft, what type it was, and what it was used for? BL: Actually, that was a little later. Let me tell you just a little bit more about the Georgia and its wartime service. GK: Oh, okay. BL: I mentioned that we would go within one or two days of the other of the European ports and then come back, usually alone. The engineering officer on the U.S.S. Georgia, whose name I don't recall now, proposed that this be done; and he was told that it was impossible for a battleship of that type to go over and back without going into a European port for a refueling. Incidentally, the Georgia was a coal burning ship. So the engineering officer on the Georgia said it could be done, and he would prove to them that it could be. So he took a few of the spaces in the ship which had been crew's quarters and converted them into coal bunkers, and then he stored coal on the main deck in heavy canvass bags, and we did go over and back without refueling. GK: So this is about a distance of round trip would be approximately… BL: Oh, 4,000 miles. GK: 4,000 miles? BL: Possibly more. 8 GK: So then they can, in other words, they can leave New York, go to whatever port, stay for a while or what, and not actually have to tie up to a pier to replenish themselves. BL: Well, actually, we didn't go into any port. The French and British ships would meet us one or two days from their ports, and we'd come back alone. GK: They'd stay. BL: Convoy the troop ships on into port. GK: Yes, I could see where probably tying up at a pier would be, the ship would be very vulnerable to… BL: Oh, yes. GK: Any type of an attack. Better to be out in the ocean moving around. BL: Yes. GK: What was, describe a little bit about your life aboard ship, eating and sleeping facilities, and any recreational facilities if you did have a chance to have some time off. BL: The crew slept in hammocks which, of course, were suspended from the, well in civilian life you'd call it a ceiling. (Called 'overhead' in the Navy.—G.A.K.) The meals were served on tables with folding legs which, when mealtime was over, the legs were folded, and they were fastened up to the ceiling, and that same space was used for sleeping quarters at night. Normally, this was a pretty satisfactory arrangement; but in rough seas, it didn't work so well. Sometimes the tables would tip over, food would be spilled, and there was one period of three of four days consecutively when tables were not set for any meals. On those occasions, the, we called them mess cooks, actually they were, in civilian life they would probably be waiters, set the plates out on the deck and dished 9 the food up. You'd take your plate in your hand, stand wherever you could, and eat your food. The reason for not setting the tables, of course, was because of the danger of breakage of the dishes and the possibility of someone being hurt from the broken dishes and also from the hot food. The place where I ate was on the main deck. It was under some of the superstructure so it was a covered area; but even so, quite often water would break over the deck and would come into our eating place. And it was both comical and rather pitiful when some of the ship's company got seasick. You might get your plate in your hand and stand against a bulkhead, and you might get a bite or two and the ship would roll in the opposite direction, and the deck was wet so you slid over to the opposite bulkhead, turn around and brace yourself just in time to slide back. Sometimes we didn't get very much food. GK: It must have been very difficult to get a full meal that way. BL: Also, on one of our trips, just about half of the ship's company had the flu. We lost a number of men, I don't know how many, with the flu, and we buried quite a few of them at sea. GK: This was due to the flu? BL: Yes. Actually, none of the sailors on the battleship Georgia were buried at sea, but we did lose a number of men. On the troop ships, they were so crowded and conditions were so poor that they had no alternative, they had to bury their dead at sea. On the battleship, boxes, caskets were made for these men in the carpenter shop of the ship, and the bodies were saved until we got back to an American port, and then they were shipped home for burial. 10 GK: This must have been the same flu that went through epidemic portions… BL: It was. GK: In the United States immediately after… BL: About the same time. So with about half of the ship's company out with the flu and half of the remainder seasick, we had kind of a rough time there for a few days. GK: You had to do double duty? BL: We did. Yes. GK: Now when you stood your watches, your watches were on the signal bridge? BL: Yes. GK: Was this located adjacent or nearby the wheelhouse? BL: Yes. GK: How many convoy trips did you make to Europe? BL: Two. And the last trip I made we were just about the middle of the Atlantic Ocean eastbound when we got word of the signing of the Armistice. We took our troop ships on over to Europe, and the troops presumably were used as replacements for some of the men who had been there earlier. We came back alone as usual. GK: Did you expect to get discharged very soon after November, 1918? Or did you still have a certain amount of time to go on your enlistment yet? BL: Well, no. As I said, I was in the Naval Reserve, and that was for four years, but the period of active duty was for the duration of the war; and although I did rather anticipate that particularly when I was sent back to the Naval Operating Base at Hampton Roads 11 about the first of December, 1918, I thought I might be going home, getting released shortly; but I was assigned to another battleship and served several months more actually being released from active service in July of 1919. GK: Your next duty ship this was what? BL: The U.S.S. Nevada. GK: Alright. Was it similar to the Georgia? Was it a sister ship? BL: No. The Nevada was a much larger ship than the Georgia. A much later ship, as I recall, the Georgia was completed and commissioned about 1906 and the Nevada some nine years later. I think it was commissioned in 1915. The Nevada was an oil burner where the Georgia was a coal burner, and the Nevada had 14" guns, the largest guns they had where the largest guns on the Georgia were 12". It was a larger ship with heavier armament and heavier guns. GK: So this was a more modern. . . BL: It was. Yes. GK: Just a couple of years old at the time. BL: Yes. GK: Were your duties relatively the same as on the Georgia? BL: No. No. On the Nevada, I was assigned to the fire control division which corresponds to the heavy artillery in the Army. We controlled the fire of the big guns. My particular duty was recording range readings by plotting them on a piece of plotting paper. We had four range finders on the ship; and at 30 second intervals, I would signal them with a little 12 foot switch I had. One signal to prepare to give me their range and another one to give me their range. And they would, each of the range finders would give me their reading which was the distance of the target, whether it be a ship or what, from our ship. And these were plotted and the average of the four was taken as the present range. Sometimes there would be some variation in the readings. GK: These range finders, were these an optical type of apparatus? BL: Yes, they were an optical instrument with a long tube, there was a difference in the length of tubes. I believe the larger ones were five or six feet long and the two smaller ones were something less. And there was some kind of mirror arrangement near the ends of these cylinders so fixed that when the operator focused on the target, he could read the range in yards from an instrument which was attached to the focusing device. And there were instruments in the plotting room which were rather simple to operate, but the instruments themselves at least appeared to me at that time to be very complicated. The officer in charge would put into one of these instruments our course and speed, the enemy's apparent course and his apparent speed and the present range, and then he would look on another dial and read the range a minute ahead, and that was what was used for the actual firing of the guns. GK: So you were actually firing ahead of the target because there was a slight time lag between the… BL: That's correct. GK: …Projectile arriving and the range was read. How long were you on the Nevada? 13 BL: From approximately February 1 to July 1, five months in early 1919. During that time, we spent probably two months operating out of Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, which has been in the news somewhat in the last few years. GK: Yes. Did you, well the home port of the Nevada was Hampton Roads also? BL: Yes. That's correct. GK: And you made trips down to, on duty down to Guantanamo. BL: Well, we went down there and stayed for approximately two months. GK: Did you get to go into Cuba itself? BL: Yes. I never did get to Havana. I was ashore there at Guantanamo Bay, and there was another small community west of Guantanamo Bay and also on the south shore of Cuba that we visited on one occasion. I don't remember the name of the community right now. But while we were there and during our maneuvers, we put into the port of Bridgetown, Barbados, which was a British owned island at that time. I'm not sure if they're independent now or whether it is still part of the British Empire. GK: I don't know either. A lot of those islands have gone independent… BL: Correct. GK: in the last five or six years and Britain doesn't have any of the empire it used to have in the Caribbean. BL: Bridgetown was a rather quaint and unusual city. It was quite a large city, and there were a few palatial homes there. They unquestionably belonged to the British people who were living on the island. The natives were black, but they seemed to be somewhat 14 different from the American Negroes. I'm not sure what their origin was. The natives were in most cases extremely poor people. They lived in shacks. Often, there'd be large families in a one or two room shanty; and sometimes even more than one family living in these makeshift lumber homes. GK: Were there any blacks aboard ship? BL: There were none on the ship I was on at that time. GK: Were there any blacks? BL: There were. Yes, I saw some black sailors. I do not remember at that time ever meeting a black officer, naval officer. I did see some Army officers who were black, but I don't recall meeting a black Navy officer at that time. GK: You wouldn't happen to know what the ratings that these black enlisted men were? Did they do regular duty, or were they just mess cooks or stewards as usually the tradition was in that time I think? BL: No, they would be on regular duty. We had a lot of Philipinoes who were mess cooks and, I couldn't think of the word right now, stewards in the officers' quarters and things of that kind. They were mostly Philipinoes. Didn't have any blacks in those capacities. GK: Could you describe to the best of your ability the uniform the enlisted men wore at that time? BL: Well, we had two uniforms, two general uniforms, the whites and the blues. The whites, of course, were worn during warm weather, and when we were in warm climates, and the blues were the colder weather clothing. In both cases, we had dress and undress uniforms. The undress whites were the usual working clothes of the seaman. The 15 firemen and enginemen and machinist mates and so on were permitted to wear for their working assignments dungarees, which were blues and which were rather an overall type of clothing. The seamen and signalmen and boatswains mates and well roughly speaking those whose assignments were above deck wore the undress whites which were just the white uniform without any stripes on the collars or any insignia other than their rating on either their right arm or their left arm. The dress whites were the same type of uniform with blue stripes on the collar and a blue star on each corner of the collar. They had the, both of them had the rather large square type collar that kind of hung down the back; and in both cases, the trousers were of the flair leg type. I have understood that one reason for this was that in case you had to abandon ship or fell overboard or anything that you could more easily get out of the flair leg trousers than you could any other type and the same thing with your, with these jumpers with the large necks you could very quickly get out of them and rid yourself of any unnecessary clothing. The undress blues were of the same type. They had the large blue collars and the flair legs on the trousers. The white trousers, both dress and undress, buttoned up the front like an ordinary trouser. The blues, both undress and dress, had a flap on the front that had buttons up the side and across the top of this flap. There were a total of thirteen buttons. I presume that had some connection with the thirteen original colonies. I really don't know what the significance was. GK: What type of head gear did you wear? BL: Oh, usually, we wore the white cap, and the brims of the caps were sown so that they were quite stiff without the use of starch. They also had the flat hat which was part of the dress blue uniform. The flat hats were round with a little ribbon on them, and they 16 had the name of the ship or station on the front of the cap. They were pretty hard to control in windy weather. I remember seeing a couple of sailors chasing some round hats, some of the flat hats down the sidewalks of New York on one occasion. GK: You did have the neckerchief? BL: Oh, yes. Yes, the neckerchief was part of the dress uniform of both the blues and the whites. It was, in both cases, a black neckerchief which when unfolded was a square piece of cloth. It was satin or similar to satin, and it was folded in such a way as to make the tie-able neckerchief, and there was one particular kind of knot in which we tied them. Right now I can't recall what we called that knot, but they were to be tied in a certain way. GK: A specific knot. BL: And when they were properly tied that made a square. The top part of your neckerchief went down into this thing which was square, and then there were two little corners stuck out like this. GK: Oh, it was. Was it like a sort of a loop that was on your… BL: No. You made that by tying the neckerchief. GK: Oh, by tying the neckerchief. I see. Did you receive any awards or medals or unit awards for your duty during the war? BL: No, I did not. We received the victory medal which was awarded to all servicemen with the campaign ribbon with the wording, Atlantic Fleet. I did not personally receive any awards and was not in a unit which did. GK: Now, earlier, the aircraft was on the Nevada. 17 BL: That's right. GK: Would you talk about this aircraft setup that you had on the. . . BL: Yes. While I was on the U.S.S. Nevada, we acquired two Navy flying officers. At that time, there was no Air Force; there was the Army the Navy and the Marine Corps, and the Marines were very much in the minority in World War I. But two flying officers were assigned to the Nevada; and under their supervision, a plane was mounted on top of one of the gun turrets and a… GK: Was this the forward or the aft? BL: It was one of the aft turrets. GK: Aft turrets. BL: And the only runway they had was the length of the gun barrels. That was rather sloping, and they had to either develop enough momentum from the ramp and from the power of the engines to take off or else they flopped into the sea. GK: Did these aircraft, did they have, could they land on the water? Were they pontoon type of…? BL: Yes, they were. GK: Aircraft? BL: Yes. GK: And were they single pilot or two-man aircraft? Do you remember? BL: I think it was a single pilot ship. GK: You wouldn't happen to recall the name of the plane do you? 18 BL: No, I certainly don't. I don't know whether it had a name, and that was strictly experimental at that time. That was a pilot project, and that was long before we had the airship carriers, of course. GK: What approximate date did they initiate this on the Nevada? BL: I would say that was probably April of 1919. GK: April of 1919. Did you ever talk to any of the pilots and converse with them about their project? BL: No. I can't say that I did. GK: Okay, just go ahead, Mr. Lyon. BL: Radio communication as we now have it was something that was entirely new at the time of World War I. The U.S.S. Nevada was equipped with radio, or we called it wireless telephone at that time and used it quite a bit; but it was still so experimental that it was never depended on. When a message was sent by wireless telephone, the same message was also sent by the wireless telegraph so that they'd be sure that it got through. GK: Let me get this straight. You mean they would send it by Morse code? BL: Yes. GK: And by voice? BL: Yes, same message by voice. They could never be sure that it was received correctly, so they'd always backed it up with the Morse code. 19 GK: Oh, that seems unusual, because there's the voice speaking. Coming over there if it was distorted and chopped off on certain words you can see that, well, the message isn't coming through. BL: Well, it was very often; and sometimes, for some reason or other, the thing would go dead during a conversation so that… GK: I see, so you'd have to rely on the Morse… BL: Yes. GK: Code. BL: Yes, the Morse. GK: Well, how did the Navy and you personally feel about this wireless equipment? Did you feel that this would aid, or it was just a newfangled thing that's going to be a passing fad? BL: No. I think, I would say there was general optimism, but there were still bugs to be worked out. GK: I imagine the equipment was kind of large. Was it the console, the radio receivers and transmitters? Were they… BL: I would think so. I didn't have too much contact with that. GK: Well, you did have to send Morse code… BL: Yes. GK: Over this. BL: Right. 20 GK: Now, was this communications gear it was strictly an experimental type of thing, new thing. No other ships had it or was the, did the Nevada and a few other select ships? BL: Well, at least some of the other ships had it. I remember particularly hearing conversations between the Nevada and the Wyoming. They were in the same group. But as I recall, it was entirely new at that time. GK: Now, when you tested this, were you in port when you tested it, or were you out at sea? BL: At sea. Well, it was used both instances, but mostly when we were at sea. GK: What can you remember about what the range was on this? Was this line of sight operation, or could you transmit and receive over the horizon? BL: I'm not aware of any messages that were sent or received from any great distances. So I think it's probably safe to assume that it was a line of sight affair. GK: Line of sight affair. Okay, Mr. Lyon, is there anything else you'd like to talk about? How about remarking a little bit on your discharge out of the Navy, and where you were discharged, the location, and where you went right after that and your readjustment to civilian life. BL: Well, I was transferred from the Nevada back to the Naval Operating Base at Hampton Roads for release and was placed on inactive duty at Hampton Roads and went back to my home town at Bryson City, North Carolina. That was in the later part of July 1919, and then that fall, I went back to college. GK: Did you find it a little bit difficult readjusting to civilian life, or did you really welcome it with open arms? 21 BL: Well, I welcomed the return to civilian life, and I was a little more fortunate than most of my buddies. So many of them came back and found that they had no jobs. I didn't go back to the job that I'd left when I went into the Navy, but I didn't have any difficulty finding employment, but that was an unusual situation I would say. GK: What, what shape was the country in as far as economically, employment wise at that time after you got discharged? BL: This was in 1919. Well, that was followed immediately by the depression of 1920, 1921. Unemployment was very general, and the economy was in a very poor condition. I remember that one of the sacrifices we had to make at that time or one of the inconveniences was that very little white sugar was available. We used a lot of a rather coarse brown sugar. It isn't the brown sugar that we ordinarily use in making cakes and cookies and candy, but it was a more a more crude, unrefined type of sugar. And also white flour was scarce; and usually, when you bought a sack of flour, you had to also buy a sack of cornmeal or a sack of rye flour or some other substitute for the ordinary white flour. So that things were a little bit on the rough side. GK: Yes, I can imagine. Listen, why don't you explain now your present dealings and workings with the World War I veterans, your position that you hold. BL: Both my wife and I are active in the organization of the Veterans of World War I of the U.S.A., Incorporated. I am presently commander of the Department of Utah, Veterans of World War I, and my wife is Department President of the Ladies Auxiliary for Utah. And we have sixteen barracks and fifteen auxiliaries in the state at the present time. There are approximately a thousand men in the state, actually 981, who are members of the Veterans of World War I organization; and there are 4,000 World War I veterans in the 22 state. The primary objectives of the Veterans of World War I is to be of service and help to the veteran, his widow, and his dependents. And I might say that it was largely the World War I veterans that were responsible for enactment of the legislation which provides educational and other benefits to the veterans of later wars. GK: About how many veterans in Weber County belong to the World War I vets association? BL: Our membership for 1974, the present year, is 270 in the Ogden barracks, and that is the only barracks in the county. That's the number of veterans in Weber County that belong to our organization. I don't know how many World War I veterans are in the county, but based on national percentages I would say there are probably 1,200 or more. There are just over a million World War I veterans still alive in the United States, and there are approximately about 160,000 that belong to the Veterans of World War I organization. Nationwide, roughly 16%. GK: 16%. I imagine you do have a national convention. . . BL: Oh, yes. GK: Yearly, or? BL: Our national convention is held each year, in the fall. The last two years it's been the very last of August and the first of September. Last year the national convention was held at Kansas City, Missouri, and the 1975 convention will also be held in Kansas City. It will be August 31, through September 4, 1975. The Moehlebach Hotel in Kansas City is the convention headquarters. Previously, the conventions were held in various cities throughout the United States. The national convention was held in Salt Lake City in 1970; 1971 it was held at Dallas, Texas; 1972 at Palm Springs, California; 1973 at 23 Miami Beach. At the convention in Palm Springs in 1972, it was decided that all future conventions after the 1973 would be held in cities which are more centrally located. GK: I see. BL: No future convention would be held on either coast. Either coast. GK: Yes, Kansas City is very centrally located. BL: Yes. Yes. GK: Now that would be the best thing, because it would be quite hard having a convention in San Diego and having veterans from New Hampshire and Maine coming in or even Florida. It would put a burden on them. BL: Yes. GK: Physically and… BL: From Washington, Oregon, down to Florida. GK: Physically and financially it could put a burden on them. Is there any other remarks you'd like to make, or is there anything that you remember about your war years that recall? BL: I don't think of anything. Do you want to shut that off for just a second? GK: Yes. BL: There's quite a difference in pay of the men who are in service now and those who were in the service during World War I. As I recall, my pay as a Seaman Second, now they call it Seaman Second Class, was thirty-two dollars and some cents per month. I was later promoted to the grade of Seaman, I believe they now call that Seaman First Class, 24 which corresponds I believe roughly to the grade of Corporal in the Army; and my pay was thirty-eight dollars and some cents per month. I think at that same time that a Private in the Army was getting thirty dollars a month. I don't know what the pays were for the other grades, I remember hearing a Chief Petty Officer who probably ranks with a Staff Sergeant or a Master Sergeant in the Army, spoke of his pay as being in the vicinity of one hundred dollars a month, so that's quite a differential. And most of the fellows from World War I, both Army and Navy, we had no Air Force at that time, we had the Army Air Corps and a few Navy flyers; but most of the men when they came home, or all of us when we came home, when we were released from active service, received a bonus of sixty dollars. Some years later, I think about 1925, we were granted adjusted service certificates which were in effect United States Bonds. The amount received depending upon the length of service and a few other factors, but they averaged about five hundred fifty dollars per individual. Which means that the total benefits the World War I veterans received except for the pay that they got while they were in service was just over six hundred dollars per individual. And we as World War I veterans feel that we have been very unfairly dealt with. The veterans of all former wars including the Spanish American War received pensions as a reward for their service without regard to other income or the financial status of the veteran. There were no income limitations. Veterans of World War I who have service connected disabilities do receive disability compensation or pensions. There are comparatively few cases of World War I veterans who have non-service connected disabilities who are receiving somewhat similar pensions; but there is a definite income limitation. If your income is above a certain amount, as I recall, up until the present that limitation has been $2,600 25 for a single veteran and $3,200 for a veteran with dependents. And if your income exceeded that, you got no veteran's pension even though you were disabled. One result of this was that in 1973 when there was a 20% increase in the Social Security benefits, that was an increase for everyone except the World War I veterans. Many thousands of our veterans lost their pensions entirely, and many others had them reduced to the point where they actually drew less money following this increase than they were drawing before because the 20% increase in Social Security raised them above the limits where their veterans pensions were payable. We feel that this is very unjust, and we are happy to know that the Congress has recently passed legislation which is elective January 1, 1975, which increases the income limitation by 1400 in each case. We had worked for a $600 increase, but it was finally passed at $400. We feel that this is a step in the right direction, but we also feel that it's still far from adequate. And the Veterans of World War I as an organization has for a number of years been striving for a pension for all World War I veterans which would not be based on a poverty situation but which would be given as a reward for service which we rendered to our country. As I said before, veterans of previous wars received a pension without regard to their financial status. The veterans of later wars and we feel that the benefits they get is very largely due to the efforts of those of us who served in World War I. We worked for such legislation, and we're glad to see these younger veterans get all of it, but the veterans of World War II and those of later wars have received educational benefits which are much, much greater than anything any previous veterans have ever received. As I said, we have supported this and a bill which has recently passed Congress over the veto of the President increases the amounts payable to the Vietnam veterans and extends the 26 period in which the educational benefits are available to them. This was supported by the World War I organization, but we… GK: So then the veterans of World War I have always been in the forefront in the promoting legislation for veterans of other… BL: Of all wars. GK: Of other wars. BL: That's right. GK: I see. BL: There were three bills introduced into the Ninety-Third Congress any one of which would have provided pensions for World War I veterans, of approximately $125 to $150 per month for each veteran. One was introduced by Congressman Frey from Florida; one was introduced by Congressman Patman from Texas, I believe; and a companion bill to the Patman Bill was introduced by Senator McGovern. And public hearings were held on these bills, but unfortunately, that's as far as it got. They apparently are dying in Committee, and that happens to a lot of good legislation, and we are very disappointed at this, and we're still striving for an equitable pension for the World War I veterans, and we hope that we can get some action in 1975. GK: Well, Mr. Lyon, thank you very, very much for this interview. I really appreciate your time and your interest in this, and this has been very interesting. I thank you very much. BL: Oh, you're entirely welcome. 27 {Addition by Mr. Lyon, but not on the tape; The Navy was entirely a volunteer organization in World War I. The only draftees were inducted into the Army, which was also largely volunteer. The draft age during World War I was 21 to 31.} 28 Remarks Concerning the Weber State College Oral History Program. Prepared for Mr. R. Sadler. By George A. Klipper. The importance of an Oral History Program cannot be denied. It is an integral part of the gathering of historical facts and figures. I looked forward to my three interviews with enthusiasm and interest. I was also looking forward to expand my historical knowledge, and I was not disappointed. I compiled a list of 12 veterans from various sources, and based on sketchy background information, I made my selections. All three were enlisted men; one Navy vet and two Army vets. I phoned them and explained the project, and set up a preliminary interview with each at their homes. This first interview lasted from 30 to minutes. An appointment was then made for the oral interview at a later date, in their homes. The veterans were very interested in the project, and expressed delight in being asked to participate. I observed that there were a number of common denominators associated with each man, even though their backgrounds varied. All were of the L.D.S. religion, but only one was a native of Utah. Each man cooperated fully with me. They all had characteristics and personal traits of courtesy, kindness, compassion, and a good sense of humor. All were thoroughly interested in world and local conditions, and kept abreast of such things. All were very active in veteran’s affairs, and each displayed a strong love of country. In a word, they were all gentlemen. Their homes were always immaculate and very nicely furnished, but I detected a disquieting note concerning their wives. It was obvious that each wife was not interested in the project from the first phone contact, and resented my presence in their homes. They displayed only the barest of social amenities toward me. They seemed jealous of the attention that their husbands were receiving. My impression of them was that they were sour, dour, bitter old women whom life had passed by. When the interviews were completed, I had a typist make up a working transcript. I edited these transcripts and then had the vets do the same. After editing, I had final copies typed up, with a second copy sent to each man (They all requested a copy). Initially I had a very difficult time in finding a typist. I talked to a lot of girls but none seemed interested. Perhaps it was due to transcribing off of a tape recorder. Three weeks after the last interview, I finally found one. The going rate for a typist around Weber College is about $1.65 per hr. I had to finally pay a girl $2.00 per hr. to do the work. A breakdown of costs and labor incurred by me is as follows: Typist @ $2.00 per hour …………………………..$70.00 Supplies (batteries, paper, etc.) …………………..…$6.00 Recording tape ……………….…………..………$37.00 Tuition for oral history class……………………..…....$60.00 Auto Expenses 150 miles @ $.10 @ mi………..……$15.00 Time expended…………………………………………40 hours $188.00 If I had to do all the typing, the time expended would be about 120 hrs. I would advise young people not to take this class, if they are on limited college funds; and would advise older established students, who have adequate funds, to personally allocate plenty of time for this class. But if time and money are not important personal factors, then and only then will I highly recommend the oral history class. I will never commit myself to such a project as this again, except in the case where all expenses and labor is paid, or in the case of financial gains.