Oral History Program Ezekiel R. Dumke Jr. Interviewed By Rebecca Ory Hernandez 5 September 2012 12 September 2012 i ii Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Ezekiel R. Dumke Jr. Interviewed by Rebecca Ory Hernandez 5 September 2012 12 September 2012 Copyright © 2013 by Weber State University, Stewart Library iii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description The Weber and Davis County Communities Oral History Collection includes interviews of citizens from several different walks of life. These interviews were conducted by Stewart Library personnel, Weber State University faculty and students, and other members of the community. The histories cover various topics and chronicle the personal everyday life experiences and other recollections regarding the history of the Weber and Davis County areas. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Dumke, Ezekiel R., an oral history by Rebecca Ory Hernandez, 5 and 12 September 2012, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. Ezekiel R. Dumke Jr. September 12, 2012 Ezekiel R. Dumke Jr. ca. 1943 1 Abstract: Ezekiel R. Dumke, Jr. “Zeke” was born June 3, 1923 in Ogden to Dr. E.R. and Edna Dumke. His father was a well-known local physician and his grandfather, E.O. Wattis, was a principal of the Utah Construction Company. Zeke sat down with Rebecca Ory Hernandez in his office in Salt Lake City to share stories about his family, including his parents, his brother, Ed, and his sister, Markey Dumke Healy, who passed away this year. Zeke reflected on his life growing up and attending Polk School in Ogden as well as his time spent in the Navy during World War II in the South Pacific. He attended Weber College for a short time in 1946. He met and married Katherine White, daughter of Ogden’s Mayor Rulon and Reva White. Zeke was President of Western States Management and serves on many Boards of Directors and was president of the Dr. Ezekiel R. and Edna W. Dumke Foundation. Zeke and his family named the Ezekiel R. Dumke College of Health Professions, and recently named an endowed professorship in the college. Markey named the Dumke Simulation Laboratory in the Ezekiel R. Dumke College of Health Professions. The family continues to give generously to many local causes as one of the leading philanthropists in Utah. ROH: Today is Wednesday, August 15, 2012 and I am in the office with Zeke Dumke. This is Rebecca Ory Hernandez from Weber State University and we are here to talk a little bit about Zeke’s history. ZD: Going back on my earliest memorable childhood experiences at Polk School, my grandfather, who was president of the six companies building the Boulder Dam, 2 took me on a personal tour where we stayed in the guest house down in Boulder City. He took me down on the dam site and up on the elevators where they were building the dam and looked in the tunnels. He gave me a map of what they were doing in the way of construction that I took that home and presented it to my class. This would be in 1934 during my fourth grade year. They were so impressed that they then had me present it to the total school assembly. Never having been involved in anything like that before, it was quite a memorable experience in my childhood. ROH: Tell me about your siblings. ZD: I had one older sister, Markey, who died earlier this year and I have a brother, Ed, who is three years younger. ROH: Did you have a group of friends that you would hang out with at Polk School? ZD: Not in particular. There was one fellow that lived a block down whose name was Harry Poe. He went into the Air Force during the war and he has died since. ROH: What were some of the things you did in Ogden as a child? ZD: Our backyard connected to my grandfather’s home and the middle of his street split around a park. We used to call it the “watermelon circle.” Various neighborhood kids would get together there and we’d play games and other things there. ROH: Were you born in the same house you grew up in? ZD: Yes. It was built by my grandfather. 3 ROH: Was that on Eccles or Van Buren? ZD: Van Buren. Next door was a home also built by my grandfather for my Aunt Ruth. My mom and Aunt Ruth had a double wedding. ROH: We know your dad was a fine physician in town. Did you ever go with your father on any calls that he went on? ZD: His first operational schedule was at seven o’clock. My best visits with him would be as he got ready to go to the hospital. I’d go in and sit on the stool and visit with him. He was a very busy man and sometimes he would take me up to the hospital on his tours. ROH: Did you ever think that you might go into medicine yourself? ZD: I did. I was planning to go into medicine when the war started, but I was called into duty. ROH: What division of the military did you go into? ZD: I graduated with a commission in horse cavalry. My parents had horses and I was raised with horses. At the age of 13 and 14, I was in horse shows and I won quite a few cups. ROH: Was the horse cavalry part of the army? ZD: Yes. By the time I graduated in 1943, the horses were eliminated and the army had gone mechanized. That meant that the cavalry people would go into tanks. I really get Closter phobic, so I didn’t want to be in tanks. Just before they called 4 me, I joined the Naval Aviation program. I went on duty in June of 1943, I was a Naval Cadet. ROH: Did you learn how to fly? ZD: Yes, I started off in flight prep and then we had War Training Service (WTS). That was where we learned to fly. After that, I went to Iowa Preflight for my Preflight Training and about that time the navy realized they had many more pilots than they needed. They were not losing them in the Pacific as fast as they thought they would. I was then transferred and I spent the rest of the war as a quartermaster on a submarine chaser. ROH: Where were you? ZD: I was in the South Pacific. We did mainly convoy work between the Marshall Islands and anywhere from Guam to New Guinea to the Western Pacific. ROH: How long did you serve? ZD: Thirty-nine months. ROH: After the Southern Pacific did you come back to Utah? ZD: The war ended in August and the following March I was discharged on March 10, 1946. I went back to Weber College for my first quarter and then went down to University of Utah. ROH: Do you have any memories from that first quarter at Weber that you’d like to share? 5 ZD: Not really. I just came in a little late and the quarter was short and I was just getting acquainted. I really didn’t know many people and I went up to our cabin at the Hebgen in the Summer of 1946, then I started at the University of Utah. ROH: Do you remember any of your teachers at Weber College? Did anyone make an impact on your education? ZD: No. It was a very brief quarter. ROH: Where did you spend your summers growing up and as a young man? ZD: My father bought a cabin on the Hebgen Lake in Montana. He had a dear friend by the name of Dr. Ochsner who had started the Ochsner clinic in New Orleans and they used to go fishing in the Summer time. Dr. Ochsner would bring his boys up to Montana. He had three of them that match up with my brother and me. Dr. Ochsner was famous for his crusade against smoking and was probably responsible for the labels on the cigarette packages that congress requires. My mother was a heavy smoker. On a trip back East, she was looking at a diamond bracelet she thought was really pretty and my dad said he would buy it for her if she would quit smoking. She did, just like that. She said, “For how long?” He said, “For at least a year.” She said, “What if I start to smoke after that?” He said, “I’d hope you’d have more sense than that.” Well, she quit for a year then she started again and died from cancer of the mouth as a result of her smoking. ROH: Do you know how your dad and Dr. Ochsner became friends? 6 ZD: My dad was very involved with upgrading of medical education. He studied in both Berlin and Vienna. Along the way, he met Dr. Ochsner. In 1944, my dad started the Ogden Surgical with Dr. Fister and Dr. Rich. He was one of the three founders. Dr. Ochsner would come each year as a speaker and bring his boys. ROH: Were you ever tempted to go back into medicine after returning from the war? ZD: After being gone for four years, I tried to pick up my classes right where I left off and it was a disaster. I realized that with those kinds of grades, I’d never be able to get into medical school, so I switched to business. I graduated in banking and finance. I had a friend, Jack Craighead whose father had multiple sclerosis. His mother, Madeline Craighead was a very dynamic lady, and she started the MS Society for the state of Utah and got me involved. I was the treasurer and later president. I am listed as a founder and I volunteered there for 14 years. That was my first public service kind of job. ROH: What were some of the things you did in starting that group? ZD: We weren’t really interested in research; we were just trying to help patients. Actually at the end of it, my sister moved back to Salt Lake City after a divorce and she was the local representative for MS until she married Pat Healy of Ogden who became the director of the National Municipal League. Their job was to watch what government was doing and to lobby on behalf of the cities. ROH: Meanwhile, where were you living at this point? You studied business at the University of Utah, were you living in Salt Lake? 7 ZD: I never went back to Ogden after I started at the university. I always thought there would be another war and I didn’t want to go back to the Navy. The sub chasers were too rough for me. I signed up for ROTC again for another year because I’d already had four years of ROTC. I got commissioned in field artillery. That was not a wise move because shortly after that, the Korean War started and I was listed as an officer without any service time with my commission. So, I was subject to call. I stayed active at the Fort with the 96th Division. Fortunately, we were never called to active duty. When I graduated from the University, there were three things I was interested in and had an opportunity to get a job in. I went to San Francisco to meet with my cousin, Bill Kimball, who had an army reserve job of lining up all the various industries for war duties in the San Francisco area. If there was another war they would know who to call on to do what. He was able to introduce me to people in the areas in which I was interested. When I was in school, Don Bradshaw ran the insurance agency for his father’s firm, American Savings and Loan. I worked there and had exposure to casualty insurance and I liked that. So, I decided to go into the casualty insurance business. Through an introduction from my cousin, I met with the Standard Accident Insurance Company of Detroit. They suggested that I go to their training program for six months in Detroit. That’s what I did. Right after I got out of the service, a big thing in my life was skiing. One of my ski buddies was Bob White. Once, while skiing in Snowbasin, he went over to talk to this beautiful blonde and I said, “Who’s that?” He said, “That was just my 8 sister.” Katherine and I met while she was a senior in high school and the following year she went to the University of Utah and we dated during her Freshman year. We didn’t date again until her senior year. Her story was that it was to give me time to grow up. If we kept going together we probably never would have married. ROH: You don’t think so? ZD: No, we were on different ships. ROH: How did you guys get back together? ZD: I think she realized what a quality person I was, but that’s not her story. Anyway, we got together. If you want some humor in this, her dad was the mayor of Ogden at that time. ROH: What was his name? ZD: Rulon White. He was trying to clean up lower 25th Street in those days. He’d been warned that if he didn’t let up on things that his daughter would be endangered. The police were keeping a good eye on his home. ROH: Where did he live? ZD: Near the corner of 28th Street and Harrison one down from the corner. I’d take out his daughter and every time I’d drive her home and park in front of his house to get acquainted the police would come up and ask me what I was doing. In August, I knew I was going back to Detroit and I wanted to give her a ring. My father had a lot up on upper 28th Street right by the foothill, so I thought that 9 would be the place I would go and not be bothered while I give her the ring. I had just slipped this ring on her finger and she wanted to turn on the car lights to be able to see it. Little did I know, my father told the police that people were coming up and having beer parties on his lot and asked if they’d keep an eye on it. As the lights turned on, here came the police. I often joke that the Ogden police tried their hardest to keep me from getting engaged, but I was fortunate and finally got it together. ROH: What was Katherine thinking when the police pulled up all these times? ZD: I don’t know. Her dad was their boss. ROH: Who was telling him to lay off 25th Street? ZD: It was the mafia figures. They had the gambling, prostitution and all that was going on. ROH: Speaking of 25th Street, did you go out on dates to any of the places on 25th Street at that time? Was it a popular place for you to go? ZD: They used to have a large dance hall just up the hill from Ben Lomond Hotel. My wife and I always enjoyed dancing up there. ROH: Did you go shopping around 25th Street at that time? Was it a destination for activities? ZD: No. We had some very nice stores along Washington Boulevard, like Fred M. Nye and L.R. Samuels. I don’t think any of those stores are in existence 10 anymore. The Ben Lomond was a fine hotel then. Commercial Security Bank was there as well. ROH: Was your dad still practicing medicine at this time? ZD: My dad was practicing and he was the first Chief of Staff of the Dee Hospital. He felt they needed more than just one hospital during the war and they saw an opportunity to have the government involved in building another hospital. It just so happened that the man in charge establishing hospitals for the army had been one of his commanding officers in World War I. He was very helpful in getting that put together and my father was the first Chief of Staff for St. Benedict’s. ROH: Do you recall him saying anything about the fact that it was a good thing for Ogden to have two hospitals during that time? ZD: I was in the service at that time and had very little communication. ROH: So you were married in 1951. Where did you get married? ZD: April 17, 1951 at the Ogden Country Club. ROH: Tell me a little bit about it. ZD: It was a big wedding. The thing I remember the most is that I had a lot of friends that were really out to decorate my car when I left there because I had been guilty in taking part in sabotaging theirs. Fortunately, since Rulon White was the mayor, I told the Chief of Police that I was going to have problems. He took my car and it was not available until I got ready to leave and the police drove it up to 11 me and I drove off. That really upset my friends, they thought that was illegal politics. ROH: What did you do to your other friends cars? ZD: We used to tie cans on them and use soap to write over the windows and put rice up in the visors and all that kind of stuff. ROH: What did you do after you were married for work? ZD: Alder Wallace had a small agency and they wanted me to take care of it while I built my own agency. I did that for a short time, but the general agent didn’t like me being there while building my own business because he was afraid I would walk off with all of the business his current agent had. I started my own agency and this was about the start of the Uranium boom. I saw the opportunity of dealing with some of the Texas people that were coming in for the purpose of drilling for Uranium. Perhaps I could handle the Utah business. I solicited a few of these people and that also got me involved to some degree in the Uranium business. ROH: Did you go to Texas and speak with them or was this in Utah? ZD: Here in Utah. I got quite an education in the drilling and prospecting business. I was given 20 or 30 claims and the operators decided to drill. Suddenly, the cost of drilling my claims was way beyond the money that I had at that time, so I abandoned the prospecting business. That was an early business experience, but I made some good friends and contacts in that area. 12 ROH: Would we know the names of any of those companies today? ZD: None of them are in business. Most of them were partnerships of people that were older than I was and they’re gone now. There was a geologist by the name of Cliff Goldsmith in Dallas, Texas that I’m still in touch with. Moab gave me a start on my insurance business and it began to build slowly in Salt Lake City. I still had business contacts and one of my friends was Dick Ruling who was the manager of Hertz rental cars for Utah. It was owned by his father-in-law. Dick and his wife, Nancy, would go camping with us. One day, we decided to go down the San Juan River with a guide by the name of Gaye Stavely. He was excited about the fact that there was going to be a Glen Canyon dam set up on the Arizona line. It would be a very big dam that would back up 180 miles into Utah. He wanted to be a concessionaire. When we sat down and talked to him, it turned out that he wanted us to put up all the money and he would run it and have a big stake in it. We didn’t want to do that. Dick had gasoline contacts with Chevron. Chevron was interested in getting the gas business for the new concession on Lake Powell. There was no road into this area and no development. There was a concession right across the Lake called Hall’s Crossing that was run by Calvin Black. We got Calvin and some of his mining friends to join us in putting in a bid to the National Park Service. The Park Service felt that since we had Chevron and we had operators that were already working in that area in the mining business and used to tackling difficult contracts, that we would be the ideal people to take on this concession. We called it Bullfrog Marina. 13 The State of Utah started to build a road into the area. The Park Service had already established some buildings with material brought up from Paige, Arizona by boat and created some housing for their park service people. There was a contract for the road. It was during the period of the Vietnam War and money was not very available. We had our Senator, Ted Moss, who had a lot of influence with where the money went for roads and other things. Every time there was a little money left over he would direct it to our road in Utah. The government told us the road would never be done because there would be no funding, but it did get done thanks to Senator Moss. During this period, Calvin Black and the other miners from Blanding, Utah got in a fight over some mining claims. They wanted to have their interest purchased. Dick Ruling and I did that. Then, Calvin Black wanted to have a lot of special considerations that we didn’t want to do so we ended up purchasing his interests as well. At that point, we found ourselves building and operating Bullfrog. We had another friend named Lincoln White who was in the jewelry business and liked to have exciting ventures and he joined us. There were three of us that owned the concession at that point. Since my time was more flexible, I ended up doing all the direction and working with the architects and the park service on what buildings we could build and where. I became the General Manager, but I was never hired that way I just ended up doing it. I spent twelve years in that capacity until we sold it to the Del Webb Company. Along the way, our road was completed and we started to have visitors come in. They all needed a place to stay and the only way we could do 14 that was with house trailers. We started a village of house trailers. Utah people were famous for coming down with all of the supplies that we would have liked to sell to them including gasoline. So, business was rather scarce in the early years. We heard of the success that some other operators had on park service lakes with houseboats. We got into the houseboat business and over the years ended up purchasing smaller boats 30 or 40 feet long, but everybody always wanted the biggest boat so we ended up buying boats that were 50 feet long. ROH: Did you rent these boats or were they purchased? ZD: We purchased about 80 houseboats and our clients rented them. There was good income with them. Our boats slept anywhere from 6 to 20 people depending on how our customers packed people in. Many people would sleep in sleeping bags on top of the roof. They liked to be under the open sky. We ended up purchasing a large assortment of boats over the years. We had to laugh because we really had more boats than we had slips or places to put them. It was like a juggler. We always had to have some of them out on the lake at all times in order to accommodate them. People in Utah didn’t understand houseboats at first, but we did get a lot of people from California and Colorado. Early on, we had a houseboat delivered to a boat show in Salt Lake City to let people know about it and had a lot of people come through and they still didn’t rent them. We had very few people from Utah use our houseboats in the first year or two and then the number grew. ROH: Give me an idea of the year now, what was the first year you rented boats? 15 ZD: About 1966, after the road was finished. Then we increased the number of customers. In the first years, we ended up with maybe only 2,000 people a year. Later, we both had up to 150,000 visitors. The houseboats business was really what made our operation a success. Houseboats had bedrooms and the bigger ones had three bedroom areas plus cots, so they brought a lot of people who bought a lot of supplies and gasoline and so on. Since we were on a lake that was rising up to 100 feet in depth each, it covered a lot of ground that we had to move over to try to keep our marina and our facility operating. At first, we were going to have a marina which floated on steel tanks. An outfit from Oklahoma came in and said, “Don’t do that because those tanks won’t last.” They invited us to come back to Oklahoma City and took us down to Lake Texoma which is on the Texas and Oklahoma border. They showed us a marina that had been built on steel tanks that suffered from electrolysis between the electricity in the boats and the tanks. It would eventually put little pin holes into the tanks and they’d take on water and start to sink. That gave us the lesson of why we didn’t want to have steel tanks. Instead, we went to Styrofoam and bought them from Mecco Engineering in Oklahoma. Over the years, we developed 150 slips and they worked out quite well. The park service was responsible for furnishing the roads and the power lines. The problem was that every spring the water would come up and we’d have to move. They didn’t have it in the budget to put in new roads or power, so we ended up doing it and would go to the park service and hope to get our money back. Those expenses got to be quite high. We finally moved the whole marina 16 up to a new location. As the water came up and as the lake got bigger, the waves also got bigger. We had to move the whole marina around into the next canyon where we had land to block some of the waves to be able to operate the marina. Between the cost of having to buy all of the boats and marinas, and advancing the money for the roads, parking and getting the power lines down, the government was creating a loss for us of over a half-million dollars. We were trying to get government repayment. In the meantime, Del Webb had purchased Wahweap at the south end of the lake. They had quite a problem because their rented boats would get up to our place which was a hundred miles away or even 80 miles further and break down and it was a losing proposition to try to get service boats to go that far to do the repair work. They were very anxious to try to get either Hall’s Crossing or our place, so we made a deal to sell to Del Webb. The interest rates were going up so rather than pay us they agreed to do it in installments at market interest plus two percent. With the interest rates going up, the interest got as high as 22 percent. At 22 percent, we were making more money on having sold it than we would have made by operating. Webb had to sell their casinos in Lake Tahoe and Las Vegas in order to get the money to pay off the banks back East before they could pay us off. I ended up working for Del Webb from the time we sold in 1977 until they paid us off in 1982. They had to pay me and maintain my office in Salt Lake City until we finally settled. I used my share of the payments to build warehouses. 17 At this time, my daughter was married to Scott Thornton, who was a contractor. Because I was doing this building, Scott came to work for me. My son, Zeke III, who had graduated with an MBA from Northwestern, went to work with a company called GATX which was a large internationally leasing company. Most of the tank cars that you see on the railways were leased by GATX as well as airplanes and mining equipment. He’s very smart and good with computers and he was hired by GATX in San Francisco. They then transferred him to head the Denver office. He had to service and call on people all the way from Colorado, Wyoming, Montana, North and South Dakota. That was too much traveling, so he left them. He moved back to Salt Lake City and came to work for me to learn about my development business. He learned all I could teach him in six months and I’ve been hanging on to his shirt tail ever since. ROH: When did he come to work for you? ZD: It would have been about 1984 or 1985. At that point, things started to get more advanced in the office and I’m trying to figure out what it’s all about. He came to me one day and said, “Dad, the girls are taking too much time trying to teach you about computers to keep up. Why don’t you just tell them what you want to do and let them do it?” That was sort of the end of my computer work. The more advanced they got, the further behind I got. Zeke III got to the point where he wanted to have a paperless office and got everything on the computers. My daughter, Claire, and her future husband, Steve Ryberg, spent summers at the Hebgen Dam in our respective cabins. Our families would go up 18 there every summer. Later, they were looking for land on the Hebgen for their own cabin. They stumbled upon a ranch that was going to be for sale for about 2 million dollars and it included about 2,000 acres on the north lakeside of Hebgen which was private land rather than forestry. It was a little too expensive for them, so Steve and the family decided they’d like to buy it together. I knew that with the land at that price that he could make many times more than what he had in it. The whole family got involved. I could see that if you were going to have various houses there that they’d all want to be on the lake and have a place for their boat. There was a small marina there that they could buy. It wasn’t making much money and we bought it cheaply. It got to be a problem because Scott, Betsy’s husband, who was also partner in Salt Lake didn’t really like being involved in something in Montana. Steve had sort of taken the lead on the marina and Scott was sort of against it. My oldest daughter Betsy, really didn’t want to have anything to do with business, so Scott was her voice which then created some problems with our other children. They could all work together, but Scott was an independent speaking for Betsy. So, I was trying to work it out. Their agreement was that they would have to act unanimously on any investments and they did, but Scott and Betsy were going different directions. It became apparent that they either had to buy him out or make an arrangement where the majority ruled which is what we finally worked out. During this whole time, Zeke and Scott separated in the Salt Lake business. Zeke became the sole owner of Western States Management, which 19 had been my company. I arranged to take the balance of what I owned and transfer it to the children. Scott had an arrangement with the Woodbury Company which was a very big in real estate within the Intermountain area. Zeke didn’t want to be in the building business. He liked the investment business, as did Scott. We obtained an interest in shopping centers through Scott and Woodbury. We have the Hampton Hotel in Salt Lake City and land in Idaho and Montana. Zeke and Scott run those together. We also built and operated the 721 shopping mall, which was near my office. There’s also an office building on that mall. ROH: The one that has the Jimmy John’s sandwich shop and San Pan? ZD: Yes. All of that area including the office building and the parking terrace underneath. There was a group building a Hampton, but they weren’t able to find any land downtown. So, we donated the land and became partners. We have a similar deal with a Hampton Hotel next to our hotel in Springdale. We gave them the water rights and land and we have 51 percent interest. If we ever ran into a big problem we could either buy their interest or sell our controlling interest. ROH: Were you still involved in your insurance company, or did you abandon that at some point? ZD: I sold it. When I got involved as general manager of Bullfrog Resort, I had an airplane and I kept my office in Salt Lake, but would fly down to Bullfrog. I’d get an area manager to watch things, but I was the general manager. We had to do all our ordering and keep track of everything through my office in Salt Lake. I’d fly back and forth as needed. We’d normally get about 6 to 10 house boats each 20 year, but it would cost a lot of money. With the park service, we weren’t able to bring in any new partners without their permission. At one time, my parents were going to put in $10,000, but it took us six months to get them cleared. Until 1972 we’d work with the park service and we considered ourselves partners. We’d operate and build the resort but they owned it. However, anything we built there was covered by possessory interest. That meant that they would recognize the amount of money that we’d put in and if they didn’t renew our contract, they had to buy us out. They really didn’t like that. They wanted all of our investments to depreciate and then buy our interest even though it may be worth much more. So, that possessory interest was very valuable to us. Any time we increased gas prices or food prices or rentals, we always had to get approval of the government and that always took a few months. It’s really hard doing business that way. When I sold the resort I saw this other situation in Springdale where we owned the land and ran our business. That was much better. ROH: A lot more fun. ZD: Yes. I just didn’t realize the problems we’d have. In effect, we had the ownership, but the city council and the planning commission were all elected by probably 90 percent Mormons that were the voice in the background was what controlled the zoning down there. We had a lot of problems getting anything done. For instance, they had a regulation against any high-rise building there. You could come in and build a two-story with a peak roof, but you couldn’t go any more than that. We were on a slope, so the back of our building could be three 21 stories, but the front was only two stories. You had to determine if the three story was in violation or keep the two story. We had to come back and pile enough dirt on the bottom that they could say that it was a basement plus two stories. It was those kinds of problems that were pretty tough to deal with. Anyway, it’s worked out well and we have a Best Western down there that has been very profitable. In addition, we’re able to do the next hotel, The Hampton, and have enough room to do one more hotel after that on our land. ROH: Tell me about your spot in Yellowstone. ZD: This is the marina that was next to the ranch the family bought. They have some small cabins that are not furnished. If you’ve got a sleeping bag and if you don’t need an inside toilet, they’re not bad. We now have some bigger ones that do have a toilet, but the first ones were just a roof over your head. We also have a nice trailer park. ROH: That keeps the bears out. I think that’s important. ZD: That’s right, the bears and the bats. My wife is terrified by bats. Robert Redford used to come down and use our place. One time he went out on one of the houseboats and he got a little bite. He said, “It must have been a bat.” That got carried nationally stating that Robert Redford had been bit by a bat on a houseboat at Bullfrog. He never knew if it was a bat, and I don’t think it was. ROH: Was it good for business that he mentioned that he was in Bullfrog? 22 ZD: It was terrible. We had a lot of people cancel their reservations. We have a lot of stories about what happened there. We had one fellow that went out and just started with a canoe. He had a little outboard engine with a tube going to the gas tank. He didn’t get 40 feet off land and somehow the canoe tipped over or swamped and the cord got caught around his ankle and he drowned. When we got the body back up he was dead. We were in Garfield County and the sheriff that had to come and investigate any death claims was in Cain County. He would have to drive through two other counties to get around in Bullfrog. The county line was about three miles north which put Bullfrog in his county. He still had to investigate, so we had to lay the body in the garage overnight until he could get up there. ROH: One question I wanted to ask you was about your children. How many children do you have? ZD: I have four children, three girls and my son Zeke Dumke III. Our oldest daughter, Betsy, and Scott Thornton live up by the Canyons Resort in Snyderville. Betsy is a great horse person and has five horses. She does a lot of riding and is also involved in the community and other things. She’s currently the chairman of the National Advisory Committee for the University of Utah. She and Scott are both on the board of Nature Conservancy and she’s on the board of KUED. Our daughter, Claire Reyberg, graduated as a nurse and worked with the emergency ward at LDS hospital for a few years until she married Steve and moved to Idaho where he was a forestry ranger. She worked at a small hospital there. Steve was then transferred to Evanston, Wyoming. For about 20 years he was the head 23 ranger there over the Uintah Mountains. He retired two years ago and they moved back to McCall, Idaho. Our son, Zeke, lives here in town. Our youngest, Andrea, is married to Mike Manship, a retired geologist, and they live in Bosman, Montana. They are close to where they can get up to the cabin and we see them in the summer. ROH: Where was he working as a geologist before he retired? ZD: He worked for some mines in South Africa and worked in some geology deals in this country. ROH: Today is Wednesday, September 12, 2012. Today we are going to discuss your family’s foundation and how it began and a little bit about the history of your family’s involvement in the foundation and philanthropy in Utah. I will let you go ahead and start. ZD: I was married in 1951, six years after I got out of the service and at that time my father and mother had decided with the encouragement of their attorney to start a family foundation, the Dr. Ezekiel R. and Edna Wattis Dumke Foundation. Being the oldest son, they asked me to be president. At first the amount of money was small and my parents added to it every year. ROH: Do you recall the amount that the foundation started with at that time? ZD: It was something like $25,000 and it got up to the point of being $25,000,000 Most of it was General Electric stock which came because of the family connection with Utah Construction. The family stock in Utah Construction 24 became General Electric stock, which grew very fast in the 1990’s. In 2000, General Electric had done more in the way of financing was receiving more income out of financing than from other projects and manufacturing. At that point, the market said, “This is really more like a bank than a manufacturing company.” We saw General Electric tumble from nearly $60 a share down to $6 a share. That made quite a difference in the amount of gifting we did. It’s coming back up. It’s about 20 dollars a share now. I served as president of the company for 42 years. My dad died in 1961. His interest was in medical things. He wanted to help support doctors and medical groups with interesting ideas that would make the practicing medicine better. My mother was very interested in art and music. In the early years, those were the directions we went along with the united funds and the symphony and so forth. When I turned 80-years-old I thought I was really getting old, but little did I realize that in ten years that I would still be alive. On my next birthday, I will be 90. The directors at that time were my sister’s daughter and my brother had some children that were participating and I had some children that participated. My brother ended up feeling that he was not getting as much from the Dumke Foundation as he would have liked in his area. He had a son that lived in California that didn’t participate at all and he thought that was bad and that it would be better if he could get his third of the foundation and operate separately so he could divide it up among requests of his children and not be bothered with what we were doing. The other children enjoyed working together and going out on visits to various groups that we were making gifts to. Brother Ed wanted to be 25 able to assign a certain amount to each of his children and that person could make gifts to anything that was legally qualified to receive it. They don’t have the meetings we do and make visits to the various groups that we’re giving to. ROH: Did he name his foundation something different? ZD: It is called the Dumke Wattis Foundation. He has a group in Idaho that operates the Idaho foundations that do all the work. His foundation directors tell them how they want to gift the money. Whereas, we have meetings twice a year and we go on site visits. We are much more involved in the working of the foundation than his family. My sister’s daughter Nancy Swanfelder is on our foundation and has her own foundation dealing with children. My sister also has a son, but he’s never been involved in the foundation. That’s the way it’s been working up to this day. My second daughter, Claire, is the president of the foundation. ROH: I’ve met Claire on several occasions and she is delightful. ZD: Claire graduated as a nurse from the university and worked in the trauma unit of Intermountain Healthcare, so she’s very wise as to medical needs and what’s good. We got involved with Weber because they needed some money. The family made some gifts and they named the Health Science building for my dad. ROH: Yes, the Ezekiel R. Dumke College of Health Professions. ZD: Claire would talk to Weber and ask what he really needed that will make a difference. This last year he said, “What we really need to do is get into endowment chairs.” The University of Utah has been very active in that and very 26 successful. Weber didn’t have any of those and would really like to get started that way. At this time, because of the drop of our General Electric stock, we only give about $500,000 a year and in the meantime, presidential endowments have gone up to a million and a half. That seemingly was way out of our reach. My daughter Andrea, Claire and Nancy got together and said, “You know, if this is what they really want and it’s worthwhile let’s just say that we’re not making any other gifts and we will concentrate on the endowment to Weber College for three years. So, that’s what they are doing. ROH: That’s incredible, thank you. ZD: We made a substantial gift this year and it will take three more years before we can meet that goal. ROH: That will make a huge difference in the quality of the faculty too. ZD: In the meantime, they decided that Nancy had served her time as president, Claire had served her time, and it was time for Andrea to step up and be the president. I think they all felt great about our grant in the medical field and for Weber State. My dad was very much a Weber and Ogden man and he felt that University of Utah and the colleges down south were getting more than their share so he was always pulling for Weber. When he first came to Ogden in his early years, he was the first chief of staff for the Dee Hospital and for the St. Benedict’s Hospital. He was real Ogden man. 27 Our other foundation was started by Kay and Zeke in about 1990 and is called the Kay Foundation. It makes it easier than to try and stumble with two names. My wife has been president for a number of years. ROH: What was the focus of giving for the Kay Foundation? ZD: The focus was pretty much the same type of thing as we had in the Doctor Foundation. My wife was very interested in the arts and served at the museum of fine arts at the university. I was very interested in many things and the Red Butte Gardens. When I was working at Bullfrog, we were trying to plant trees and get a planting schedule. We had a man from the university on the Red Butte board by the name of Miles Layburn who was very knowledgeable and drew up our plans. Every time we’d submit the plans to the park service in San Francisco they’d say, “This won’t work because this tree or that tree won’t grow in that particular zone. At the university, Miles had seen these trees growing in Salt Lake City. Finally, after being turned down on two submissions, I told the park service, “Why don’t you decide on the trees that you think will grow here?” Of course, they were not in the designing business, so very little was done in our landscaping. Miles was my introduction to Red Butte, where I served for thirty years. As the employees came in we needed trailers for about one hundred people. We needed not only trailers for our employees, but a school for their children and a store so they could all buy food. All of these needs had to be met in the first years of operations. We needed something that generated more 28 income so we got houseboats. I think I told you about that. We ended up having 75 houseboats, but that was both good and bad because every year, business was so good that we’d order half a dozen or a dozen houseboats. We started out with small, 34 foot houseboats, but everybody wanted the bigger ones. We kept ordering bigger ones and that brought in more people and more repair and that type of thing. The cost of all of these things got to be quite a problem because in order to get more money into the company, we had to clear it with the park service. I remember my parents were going to put in a small amount like $10,000 and it took us six months to get them cleared to put in the money. Obviously, we’d have houseboats coming down and we couldn’t wait for 6 months to pay for them. We ran into a lot of problems that way. They also had to approve the rates that we charged on gasoline and housing. Del Webb had purchased the properties on the south part of the lake and it became a very difficult thing for them to service boats that broke down where we were because we were 100 miles away. They wanted to buy Bullfrog and we decided to sell it to them. In paying us off, I had two other partners, Dick Ruling who was president of Bullfrog and Lincoln White, who was in the jewelry business. They were to pay us off over a short period of years. So, we sold to Del Webb and they ran into trouble selling they completed their hotel in Atlantic City and that was right at the time of a big financial problem. They had to pay us on what they owed us for Bullfrog at an interest of two percent of a prime and prime got up to be 20 percent. So, the 22 percent we were making on what they were having to pay us was better than operating the company. So, that did give me 29 money to do other things with and I increased the funding for the Kay foundation and also ended up building warehouses and making real estate investments. ROH: When you started, what were some of the things you were supporting? ZD: We would look at almost any kind of foundation, but we had criteria. We wouldn’t do any bricks and mortars. We didn’t want to make a $10,000 gift into a 10 or 20 million dollar building because it didn’t show anything. However, if we were interested in it, the directors could say, “If you’ve got a computer room or something inside, we can fund there.” ROH: I’m assuming you were supporting the University of Utah and what about others? ZD: We don’t support things that have more than 50 percent come from government because there were lots of public schools and there were too many of those. Libraries were the same way. When our small foundation got to the point where we got almost a hundred requests it got to be a lot of work. We had to find a way to cut it down. The way we did that was tightening up our criteria. We don’t give to individuals, or small groups or scholarships or anything with an individual involved. We just had to decide what we could do and do it better. We closed on our geographical and said we are for the intermountain. We stretched that a little bit because we had family in Idaho and Montana and we consider that as intermountain. We require that organizations write in and ask for the amount they need and why. We’d pass that to all of the directors and they would say whether or not they were interested in hearing more about it. We’d take a vote from our directors 30 and if they had three or more votes out of our board, we’d tell them to submit a request. They can get the request off the computer to fill it in and those requests we’d send back out to directors and they were much more detailed. From there we’d take the ones that were the most popular and try to fit them within our budget. Looking at the variety of people on board, it was no surprise that we had a variety of things that we ended up clearing. We were all sensitive to what the other person wanted. In the early days, as I got into Red Butte Gardens, my mother made some gifts and our foundation made some gifts and after that I felt a little uncomfortable as president trying to submit requests to the foundation of which I was president. My wife and I did most of the funding for Red Butte Gardens on a personal basis. Having got into the foundation business, I was in rotary and we decided to have a foundation for rotary. Clayton Williams was president and he made me the first president of the Salt Lake Rotary Foundation. Our goal was to accumulate at least a million dollars to fund our work. Every year, the members put in about 5 dollars apiece each month for the foundation. That gave us about $40,000 dollars that we would give back to the rotary club for donations. ROH: Are you still active in rotary? ZD: Yes, I am. I joined the rotary in about 1978. It had a deal that once you’ve been in 20 years and after you’re 80 years old, you can belong on a retired basis. We try to get 60 percent attendance for members that are in rotary, but after you 31 reach that qualification you don’t have to pay for any luncheons that you don’t attend. In 1994, I was president of rotary. That was the same year that I became president of Red Butte Gardens and president of the Alta Club. Later, I was invited to be on the hospital board at the University of Utah. It became apparent to me that academia was the political strength on the lower campus. It didn’t want to see the university put any more money than they had to into the hospital. I thought that was wrong because we were the organization that was seeing the most people and we got to the point where we had more employees between the doctors and the nurses, so we decided to start the Health Science Council to try to get influential people to help us with our appeal for more months. I suggested that we start our own foundation. We were going to name it the University of Utah Hospital Foundation. The state said we can’t put the name Utah in there if the state doesn’t own it. So, we left Utah out. At the University of Utah, we have a special group like at the Eccles Foundation that make big gifts and the university didn’t want to have too many individual departments approach the Eccles Foundation and have them say, “We have too many requests from the university and we don’t like that. The university decides who can apply and holds it to about five and that’s what the Hospital Foundation works on.” We seldom were at a point where we could approach the forbidden list. The Dumke Foundation was on that list also. The University Hospital Foundation is the name I chose and we picked a public board. We could 32 then go out and start to approach other people for our needs within the health sciences and the hospital. It’s turned out to be quite successful. There were some real bumps along the road when President Smith came in. It turned out that when he became president of the university in North Carolina, he replaced the president that got fired for using their hospital foundation funds for travel funds and as a slush bucket. So, President Smith was very sensitive about this foundation which was a separate corporation that he didn’t control. We went through a couple of years where he wanted to change our articles and bylaws to the point that we could not operate as a separate foundation, but as we brought in new directors, he’d have to give the okay. They would be his directors, under his control and to me that was no better than the university doing it themselves. He moved on before the problem had to be settled and the foundation is still operating the way it used to do it. It is working under the health sciences and they’re paying the payroll of all the people involved. We work under Steve Warner who was the development person for the health science. Obviously, we’re very much a university facility even though we’re a separate corporation. We have a separate board and we can do what we want. However, if Steve Warner tells us that we can’t do it then we’re not going to do it, but we are operating like a foundation. 33 ROH: What is your favorite avenue of giving? What appeals to you most? Is it still the gardens or is there another area? Obviously, you’ve done a tremendous amount for healthcare. ZD: My greatest interest probably remains in healthcare. My mother financed the kidney building. She had a friend up in Ogden that asked her why she didn’t make gifts to the University of Utah. She was furious because she’d been very active, but my dad always wanted it to be anonymous. She went to the University and said, “I want to finance a building. They had several buildings that they were waiting to build and the kidney one was connected with medicine, so she said, “I’ll take it.” That’s the Dumke kidney building there. Recently, they decided that they needed that room for another building. So they are going to tear it down. They told us this a couple of years ago, so my brother and sister and I gave a major gift to the health building. It is named after my mother and father. We’ve been very active with the women’s groups such as the gymnastics team. They won a couple of nationals and their coach, Greg Marsden said, “We are starting to lose some really key prospects because they’re looking at our old facilities for gymnastics. Other colleges want to get into gymnastics and have new buildings for it, so that’s where the students are going. We need a new building.” So, Kay and I financed it and we have the Dumke building for Utah girls. We had a soccer field that we needed for the girls. They had the field, but there was no place for anyone to sit, so we put in the bleachers there. The girls 34 also needed a baseball field. We became major donors for that. I knew that Red Butte Gardens couldn’t continue to build gardens without building income. The amount that people would pay for admission was not enough to support the gardens. We needed something with big income, which was the concert center. So, we did that and we said, “We don’t think it’s right to have this be the Dumke musical whatever, it should be Red Butte Concert Center,” and that is the name. ROH: I think a lot of people go to Red Butte to see that concert series. ZD: They get about 2500 people at a time. My sister wanted to do something out there and it took us a couple of years to get it going. They have an area that’s very popular for people to get married, with the waterfall in the background and the rose garden. The only problem was there were no public bathrooms and they needed a place if it was windy or rainy where the brides could change their clothes. Also, if it rained, they needed to accommodate 100 people in a sheltered area. My sister donated about half of the cost for that. They hope to have it finished in May of 2012. However, my sister died so she won’t be able to enjoy it. ROH: What is your inspiration for being so philanthropic and generous? ZD: My grandfather and his brothers worked with and uncle and built a railroad from Portland to Astoria and they had some financial and the Cory Brothers went broke. My grandfather and his brothers were on their own. They started the Utah Construction and needed some money, so they went to David Eccles, who involved the Dees and some of the others. He gave them funding for a half interest in the company in 1903. My grandfather, E.O. Wattis, ran the jobs and 35 his brother, W.H. Wattis, was president. They did well and by 1933, my grandfather was president of six companies building the Boulder Dam. He knew when he died, he didn’t want to have his stock split up between his six surviving children so he set up a trust leaving the stock income to his children, but the stock to his grandchildren. That’s been very helpful for me. I had to come up with stock for loans as Bullfrog was growing and I had some assets to work with. Originally, with my estate planning, inheritance taxes and children gift taxes would be high on the E.O. Wattis Trust. I had the right to say, “I don’t want that,” and I was able to pass my grandfather’s grant down to my children after I die. They’ve already changed the law so we won’t be able to do that again, but I already passed the residual down and I still have the income. The stock was such an advantage to me in having an asset to work with and one of the reasons I’ve been able to do other investments and donations. These benefits have been passed on down to me and my brothers, sisters and cousins. I had another aunt that died and had no children, so she wanted to do what her father did so she passed her estate on to the nine nieces and nephews. My father played football in high school and worked in harvesting and for a mining company in Butte. He went to see his brother in Denver who said, “You need to go on to college.” He didn’t have assets, but he was a very good football player and they got him a scholarship to the University of Denver. After that, he wanted to become a doctor and his coach called Northwestern and got him admitted on a scholarship. He was working and going to school and playing football and that was too much. He was going to have to drop out, but he had an 36 aunt who loaned him the funds to get through school. He felt very indebted to people who would do that. My father gave my grandparents all their medical needs and other care at no charge. The family wanted to repay him after they died. He wouldn’t take cash, but let the E.O.Wattis family fund a trust fund to finance young doctors that were having financial problems like he had when he was going to Northwestern. If they were already in school and they had a critical situation come up, he would loan them the money to graduate. He financed 28 different doctors getting through their school. Only one did not repay their loan. When he died, he left all of those “I owe you’s” and the money that had been accumulated to the University of Utah. They have a similar trust up there. In each case, all of these students had been supported by somebody that cared enough to make a loan. ROH: Your foundations have a lot of areas from which to choose. You mentioned that you get over a hundred solicitations in a year. When did you decide to continue giving to Weber State University? ZD: The family funded the Doctor Dumke Health Science Operation and continues to be interested in Weber. It was through the Doctor Foundation that we gave the endowment. I don’t get the credit for that because I stepped down as president and my daughter, Claire, was president and she and recommended that we should do something meaningful. She said, “We can do it by making this endowment which is roughly three years of income to the Doctor Foundation.” 37 She gets the credit, not me. Claire was president. We all voted for it, but it was Claire’s recommendation. ROH: Were you included in that group. ZD: Yes, I was included. ROH: I have to say thank you very much. Is there anything else that you’d like to mention about your activities? ZD: Flying was always something important that I learned to do while I was in the Naval Aviation Program. It came in very handy when we got the concession on Lake Powell because I was more flexible with my insurance business and could fly back and forth, even before we had a road. I was always very interested in the state of Utah and the lay of the land and the scenic wonders. I used my airplane for a lot of exploring. One of the important things in our family was that every year we took camping trips. Instead of going to the mountains where there are mosquitos and all, we normally go down to the desert. There are very few people down there and we all love the desert and we explore all sorts of exciting places. As we see our children with their children, they are doing the same thing. They like the camping. They do it with a little more style than we used to. We used to go out and didn’t even have a tent. I think we all really appreciated it and that came out of my parents. They love camping and did it with us and it has affected our lives. 38 ROH: You know that President F. Ann Milner is stepping down as president soon and I didn’t know if you might have a message for her or a note to say on her behalf. ZD: She called me and I had a very nice long talk with her. ROH: Glad to hear that. Is there anything else that you’d like to say in wrapping up? ZD: My understanding was that when George Eccles died, his biggest asset was Utah International converted to General Electric stock. Mariner Eccles had been president of Utah Construction and his foundation was mostly General Electric. As you look around the community you see the Dee’s, the Browning’s, and the Eccle’s. I think it’s interesting to see the spread of that and very few people know how far that Utah International stock has gone in things that were done. The Kimball Arts center was General Electric stock that came down through Utah. A number of us that have done things, but we shouldn’t really get the first credit. It came from our family and Utah stock. ROH: I appreciate that you have taken this time to visit and share your story and your family’s history. We’ve all benefitted from your success in business and your generosity, so we wanted to thank you. ZD: I always feel fortunate that we can do it. While I’ve run some successful businesses, it’s really gone back to the fact that I had assets to start with to make them grow. Had I not had assets to work with, it would have been a different story. So, I feel very grateful for the things that came before me and I want to help some of those that will come after me. ROH: Thank you so much for your time, Zeke. I really appreciate it. 39 ZD: Thank you.