Oral History Program Mike Leavitt Interviewed by Sarah Langsdon 17 March 2021 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Mike Leavitt Interviewed by Sarah Langsdon 17 March 2021 Copyright © 2025 by Weber State University, Stewart Library Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description The Hill/DDO’95 oral history project documents the 1995 and 2005 Base Realignment and Closure (BRAC) process and its impact on Utah. In 1993, rumors started to circulate that Hill Air Force Base and Defense Depot Ogden (DDO) would be closed by the 1995 round of BRAC, causing state officials, local government, and local grassroots lobbying group, Hill/DDO’95, to spring into action to save Utah’s military installations from closure or realignment to other facilities. This project includes interviews from a wide range of players, from congressmen, state officials, members of Hill/DDO’95, and the civilian employees of Hill Air Force Base and (DDO). Their accounts describe the process of fighting for the base, the closure of DDO, the formation of the Utah Defense Alliance (UDA) and Military Installation Development Authority (MIDA) from the Hill/DDO’95 group, and their fight to save Hill Air Force Base all over again in 2005. Also discussed is the importance of the F-35 aircraft and the “Falcon Hill” Enhanced Use Lease project to the prosperity of Hill Air Force Base and military relations in Utah. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Leavitt, Mike, an oral history by Sarah Langsdon, 17 March 2021, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Abstract: This is an oral history interview with Mike Leavitt. It was conducted on March 17, 2021 at the Wells Fargo Building in Salt Lake City, Utah. Leavitt speaks about his time serving as the Governor of Utah (1992-2003) and his experience with the 1993 and 1995 rounds of the Base Realignment and Closure. The interviewer is Sarah Langsdon. Also present in the room are Alyssa Kammerman and Ben Zach. SL: This is Sarah Langsdon. I am in Salt Lake City at the Wells Fargo building. We are interviewing former Governor Mike Leavitt about Hill Air Force Base and the BRAC process in the 1990s. With me is Alyssa Kammerman, and Ben Zach is on the cameras. Today is March 17, 2021. So, first of all, thank you so much, Governor Leavitt, for agreeing to talk to us a little bit about Hill Air Force Base and BRAC. My first question, just to kind of set the scene: what years were you governor of Utah? ML: I was elected in 1992, took office in January of 1993, and I remained there until November the 10th of 2003. So, just a few months less than 11 years. SL: When you took office in January of ‘93, how far was the BRAC process into the '93 round? ML: Well, I can't articulate the exact point, but I was aware of the BRAC process at that point. I think the actual decision to start the BRAC process was inherited by the Clinton administration. So, it had started at some point in either the late 1980s or early 1990s, and it had progressed, but it was going to enter its more final stages during the period of Bill Clinton. 1 SL: With the '93 round, that's the year that the DOD decided to close Tooele. Were you surprised when that decision came out? ML: No, I was not. It felt to me like if this was going to yield something, that might be a casualty. We were disappointed, of course, and we made a strong argument to the contrary. But to the degree that the bases were going to be closed, I had expectations that we wouldn't keep both of them. Hill Field, of course, was a much larger component of the economy and a much larger defense asset. SL: Okay, so it wasn't so much a shock to you as it was to maybe other people we've talked to. ML: Well, I don't think I had any insight beyond what other people might have, but I think any time facilities closed, it affects lives and it comes as a shock whenever that occurs. SL: You talked, in the 90s, about the technology transfer program with Hill Air Force Base. Can you talk a little bit about what that was and what you envisioned that would do? ML: Well, I don't have a deep memory of that, other than the fact that it was part of our economic development strategy to look at various areas where research was being done that might, in fact, have the ability to generate businesses that could create jobs. Hill Field was a huge generator of jobs and there was a lot of technology. So, part of our thinking was, if we can find ways to identify those technologies, get them spun into businesses, it not only helps the Air Force base, but it does good things for the local economy as well. 2 SL: That makes sense. When you were governor, how did you view the importance of the Air Force base? ML: Well, one could not understand the Utah economy without recognizing that Hill Field was a fundamental asset. At the time, we had percentages of the total economy that was around Hill Field and it was significant of the entire state economy. Certainly Weber and Davis County were driven to a large extent— probably more than they are now, because other economic factors have developed in the meantime. But Hill Field was a giant part of our economy at that point. SL: Some people we've talked to have talked about how people below Davis County, even southern Davis County, don't realize the impact Hill Air Force Base is on Utah as a whole. Did you see that? Or as governor, did you view its impact on the state as a whole? ML: Well, I was governor of the entire state. I was responsible as well for the tax revenues and for the employment, and so it was evident to me. I don't think it was as evident to everyone else because that wasn't their job. Hill Field wasn't in the middle of Salt Lake City, it wasn't in Utah County. Hence it was a little less prominent in the thinking of rural Utah, Utah County, Salt Lake County, and even Cache County. But it was very much the heartbeat of Weber County and Davis County. SL: What about the importance of the UTTR? The Utah Test and Training Range? ML: Oh, well, this is something that I didn't fully appreciate when I became governor. I knew it was there, but I didn't fully appreciate its uniqueness as an asset within 3 the military complex of the United States—how rare it is to have a space so remote that you literally can emulate battles and emulate live-fire exercises. A very important part of my learning came when I was given a COBRA helicopter tour of the test and training range and actually fired, and I might add, pulled the trigger on a few rockets into the training range. Then I got an F-16 flight that I saw the same thing occur and that brought it home very vividly as to, first of all, how big it was, how valuable, how unique it was, and what an important asset it was in terms of being able to distinguish Hill Field from those who were our competitors to remain viable. SL: How did you find out that Hill Air Force Base was on the potential closure list? ML: Well, it had been rumored for a long time, and I don't recall exactly the moment, but, you know, there was a list published, it was in the media. We may have had a day or two notice, but I don't recall the exact moment. But when it became clear that that was true, it was a profoundly important piece of information. SL: What did you view as the governor's role to try and convince the commissioners that Hill Air Force Base wasn't a good asset to close? ML: Well, it was a team effort. The governor had a role, the congressional delegation had a role, the county commission had a role, the local committee that was established to defend Hill Field had had a role, and we worked hard. Jim Hansen in particular deserves a lot of credit. He was on the Armed Services Committee, I think he was ranking member at the time, and in a way, the ace in the hole we had, because we believed that he would be at the table when the decision was made, at least in Congress, and that he could make our case. Bob Bennett 4 played an important role at that point. Orrin Hatch, of course, had a lot of seniority. We were extraordinarily well equipped when it comes to representation in Congress. We had the disadvantage that the president, where the decision ultimately would be made, was in a different party. There were states that might be more valuable to a Democratic president than Utah. So, we knew that that was perhaps a weakness for us. But the governor's role was to be there to fly the flag and to tell the story and to tell it as persuasively as we could, as many times as we could, to about anybody who would listen. SL: So, even though BRAC is supposed to be an apolitical process, did you see the politics that were happening, especially in the '95 round? Especially when you talk about Clinton and that Utah was not viewed as a high political asset compared to Texas or California? ML: Well, that was what was evident, that we were competing with bases in Texas and in California. That was our greatest fear, is that somehow we would be victim to that equation. We worked hard at being able to weaken that as a possibility. That's where Jim Hansen came in. There's no such thing as an entirely apolitical process. Someone has to choose the people who are going to serve, and those people will come with their biases and points of view no matter what. So, we knew that we were in a process that had more fairness than if it were just being done through logrolling in Congress. It did have a process, it did have a sense of deliberation, it did have a sense of transparency, and it did have a sense of checks and balances. Not 5 every decision that gets made in government is subject to all of those things. I think we were glad that we were in such a process when the stakes were that high. But we had no illusion that there wasn't politics involved, at some level, every step of the way. SL: Do you remember the secret meeting in Dave Tanzy's basement with General Yates? ML: That one sounds familiar, but I don't have a direct memory of it. SL: Okay. That was the one where after the story came out, I believe it was in The Washington Post, that had Hill on the list. The Hill/DDO group sort of cornered General Yates when he was in Utah and, you know, cornered him in the basement and said, “Is this true? Is this how the DOD actually feels about Hill Air Force Base?” ML: It's quite possible I was there. SL: So, in 1993, you and other governors pitched to take all the Air Logistics Centers off of BRAC and have them compete openly for contracts. Do you remember that? ML: I do. We firmly believed that in a head-to-head competition, we would shine. The efficiency, the labor force, all the metrics, we knew we would win the work. We worked hard to promote a meritocracy in the selection of work. Our motive was very transparent. We knew we would win in such a setting. SL: Do you think that put Utah at an advantage over the other states? ML: No, the other governors didn't want to do that because they knew it wasn't their strength. 6 SL: Yeah, and we have heard a lot about Hill Air Force Base: the efficiency and the strength and the manpower. ML: Oh, it wasn't hard to see in terms of productivity. We're talking about data that demonstrated productivity, and it was available on all of the various bases. The Utah workforce, for whatever reason, was dramatically better. In head-to-head competition, we knew we would win. SL: What do you remember about the BRAC commissioners coming to Utah? They came in November of '94 and then again in May of '95. ML: It may have been the only visit that came close to the visitation of the Olympic Committee. I mean, it was a similar level of preparation, anticipation, and importance. SL: Did you meet them at the airport for the May '95 visit, when they came and Hill/DDO had the streets lined with people? ML: Yeah, I remember that. I don't recall exactly my itinerary that day, but I participated throughout the day both in the planning and in the various meetings with the commissioners. SL: How do you feel the community support was influential in the BRAC '95 round? ML: I don't have anything to compare it to, but it was awesome. I can't imagine that Kelly Air Force Base in Texas and McClellan Air Force Base in Sacramento could muster the kind of yellow ribbon type of coming out that we were able to generate in Utah. We just do that kind of thing well. SL: Yeah. The fact that thousands of people showed up wearing green. Green was the color to represent not letting Hill and DDO go extinct, is what we were told. 7 What was your view of the Hill/DDO'95 committee and why did you push for the Utah government to help bankroll them? ML: Well, first, we had a huge economic stake in the context of the number of jobs that it meant. There was not going to be a way for us to fill a hole, should we have to do that. Now, we knew that there was a possibility we could lose parts of it and parts of what happened in Tooele. We knew there was a strategy we could follow if, in fact, it turned out we were forced into it, but that was not our first choice. It was very much a deliberate decision to preserve the economic vibrancy and the lifestyle and quality of thousands, tens of thousands of Utah people. It was a very high priority on my list and on the list of the state. If you were to go back and look at the state of the state addresses that I gave during that period, you'll see Hill Field mentioned every time because of its importance. SL: Why were you so willing to bankroll and help fund the committee that then has turned into UDA? ML: It was an easy economic decision. We would work for a long time and never have the ability to get an asset that would have that kind of economic foothold in the community. The fact that we had it meant defending it was an absolute imperative. SL: Do you remember what the roles of Deborah Tanzy and Rick Mayfield were? ML: I do. I don't recall their exact titles, but the reason that the Hill/DDO'95 was so important is that this is a major logistical planning process and execution, and you can't do this with volunteers alone. Someone has to wake up every morning thinking about what are we going to do today to drive this forward, because we're 8 in a competition with serious players and the livelihoods of tens of thousands of people are on the line. Rick, who had been an executive in the state government in economic development, understood how all of the economic development levers worked. Deborah, on the other hand, had a similar kind of background, but primarily, as I recall, in Davis County. She knew all of the people that needed to be not just contacted but inspired. She had relationships throughout the entire area. So, they were very important as a team in being able to do that. SL: What do you feel the importance of Jim Hansen was to the whole process? Of course, Jim was up for reelection as this was all going on. ML: Jim Hansen's contributions to Hill Field go way before we were dealing with the BRAC Commission. He had been such a stalwart in building the mission of Hill Field from his role on the Armed Services Committee, and as he rose in his seniority his capacity to do that continued. Jim knew the base and he knew the people on the base and he understood and they knew him. He viewed that as a primary part of his service as a member of Congress, was the defense of that asset. So, when it came time for the BRAC Commission, his presence was just irreplaceable. There's no way we could have replaced it if Jim hadn't started building that seniority fifteen, sixteen, eighteen, I don't know how many years before. It was a very providential place for him to be serving and a providential time. SL: How involved were you with the Defense Depot Ogden that was up for closure as well? 9 ML: It was a package. We didn't try to separate them; we defended them both. We knew that there was a chance we would lose one and not the other. We had the same situation going in Tooele. We wanted to win it all, but we had priorities. SL: What was the feeling in the governor's office when the final list came down? Hill Air Force Base was saved in exchange for McClellan and Kelly, but the Defense Depot Ogden was to be closed. ML: Well, it was a disappointment to have that occur. On the other hand, we'd given a lot of thought to what we would do if that were to occur. We'd looked at models around the country where there had been closures, and we knew that it opened up a huge opportunity for the community and the private sector to be able to move in and gain access to those assets and to begin to develop them in private industry. It could generate at least as many, and maybe even more jobs of a different sort. I'm not suggesting we volunteered for it, but we knew it was a possibility, and when it happened, we had a plan. SL: We’ve talked to a couple of people that were involved at DDO who said that perhaps it turned out for the better, certainly for Ogden, but also for a lot of the employees who ended up going to Hill. ML: Yeah, I think that was the reason we needed a plan. SL: Hypothetically, what do you think would have happened to the economy in Utah had Hill Air Force Base closed in '95? ML: It would have been a devastating impact. But it didn't happen and I'm so glad. SL: Yeah, we've heard that it would be a Depression-era and would take 20 years for Salt Lake to recover and who knows how long for Weber and Davis County. 10 ML: You know, I think that it would have hurt. It was right at the time that we were seeing a quite dramatic inflection in our economy, where we were seeing more and more assets going toward the tech sector, transportation, manufacturing. There was a transition happening already, but we didn't want to fuel it. We thought we wanted both. As a result, we've been a very vibrant state because we were able to maintain Hill Field and that foundation of employment and make the transition into a non-defense private sector economy that has obviously been quite buoyant over that entire period of time. SL: Why do you think the military thought Hill Air Force Base was so easy to close? ML: I don't know if they thought it was easy or not, but I do think that they looked at our political situation and said, "Texas, California, Utah, Democratic president. This is the least able to mount the defense of the three," referring to Utah. I think we simply surprised them. SL: Was the Utah government involved in helping bring some of the workers from McClellan and Kelly to Utah? Were they offering any incentives or any job placements or anything? ML: I don't remember. SL: What do you see as the significance of the Ground Based Strategic Defense— GBSD—that's currently happening at Hill Air Force Base? ML: It's not something I feel like I'm even conversant on these days. SL: Okay, that's understandable. I know you left in 2003, right? ML: I left in the early winter of 2003. SL: So, you weren't really involved when the 2005 BRAC round came about? 11 ML: No, I was not. SL: Well, did you offer any advice to Olene Walker, who was governor during that time, having gone through a BRAC round? ML: Well, the good news is Olene was with me every step of the way, and she made contributions both in her role as lieutenant governor and also as governor. So, the '95 round had an experienced hand at the wheel. SL: So, yeah. That makes sense. ML: Actually, 2005 was Huntsman. SL: Would have been Huntsman. Right. ML: Yeah, and I was not involved in it. SL: What do you think was learned statewide as part of the BRAC '95 round? The legacy of the BRAC '95 round? ML: Well, government jobs have a vulnerability to them. Actually, most job centers do have some kind of vulnerability to it. There was a large employer today that announced that they were going to be selling and moving a lot of their business assets out of Utah County. On the other hand, there was a real estate company that said they were going to bring a thousand new jobs. The economy is constantly churning, but you cannot afford to lose in an economy the foundation pieces. Hill Field was clearly, and is clearly, a foundation piece. Now, if you went back 40, 50 years ago, government employment was a very big part of Utah's economy. It's a smaller part now, but it's still a vital part. SL: Yeah, I think World War II really brought home that point, changing the economy of at least, especially northern Utah. 12 ML: Yeah. SL: What do you see as the future of Hill Air Force Base? ML: I haven't stayed as close to the current vibrance of the base. I drive by, I look at it, I remember the days of BRAC [laughs], and wipe my brow that I'm glad that it went well while I was in public service. But I know how important it is strategically. You know, I came to understand the Test and Training Range, I came to understand the competition that's there. I think the importance of Hill Field is something that state government can never set aside as being anything less than a cornerstone of our entire economy. That means taking care of it. That means building the relationships and never taking them for granted. It means having members of Congress who are doing what Jim Hansen did for 20 years, building a position to be able to defend it. Every state has a few beachheads of employment and economic strength, and Hill Field has for 50, 60 years been a beachhead of economic strength for Utah. SL: Do you have anything, Alyssa? AK: I was wondering, why do you believe that the community of Utah or the citizens of Utah have more of a propensity towards being extra patriotic? ML: Someone asked me how I define the word "conservative," and I told them I felt that a person who is conservative has an extra sense of devotion to principles that have historically demonstrated that they produce a good outcome. I think love of country is one of those. It's a conservative value, because I believe Utahns believe that part of the formula that has made not just Utah but the United States of America a successful culture is love of country. That, I think, is at the 13 heart of this patriotic sense. It's a conservative point of view that, in fact, we don't want to depart from the formula that has created success over many decades and centuries. AK: Thank you. I have one other question. When you were talking about fighting for Hill Air Force Base, DDO, and the other installations in Utah during 1995 BRAC, you said, "We wanted to win it all, but we had priorities." Would you expand on that a little bit more, and kind of how that affected the way that you fought for the different installations? ML: Going from memory, as I recall, we had four pieces that could potentially be drawn: the Ogden Depot, the Hill Air Force Base, the Tooele Army Depot, and the component that we ultimately lost. I've forgotten the— SL: Was it Dugway? ML: Dugway. No, we didn't lose that. Dugway was a piece to our Army Depot and Ogden Depot and the Hill Air Force Base. Hill Air Force Base was by a magnitude the largest and hence had to be our highest priority. The Dugway, we thought, was a unique enough asset that it was unlikely that we would ever see the government do away with that. Tooele Army Depot, we knew we had vulnerabilities on, and the Ogden Depot we knew, mostly because their missions were a bit outdated. In that business, you have to be able to demonstrate that you're not only productive and efficient, but that you have a mission of importance. We had that in the context of Dugway, we had that in the way of Hill Field, and we knew that they would be looking for a way to sort of spread the pain around. So, it wasn't a 14 big surprise when we learned that that depot was going to be closed. We made the decision early on that we'd fight hard, but we better have a backup plan, and we did. As has been pointed out, it's actually worked out okay for our community, because it's created a good asset and we've been able to build jobs and recycle that into its new orbit. AK: Yeah, absolutely. Last question: You mentioned that in 1993, you had the Air Logistics Centers taken off the BRAC list in exchange for competition for the work. It sounded like that went pretty well, and if that is the case, do you know why they decided to close two of the five ALCs during BRAC 1995? Was that a political decision? ML: I probably did at the time. I don't remember now. What I do remember is that we felt as though it was tactically in our interest to have the work allocated by competition. There was a meritocracy that we believed, based on data and real numbers and efficiency, would be in the best interest of the taxpayer and that we would benefit as a community as well. AK: Thank you. SL: Well, thank you so much, Governor Leavitt. ML: You're welcome. Thanks for including me. 15