Community Oral History Paul “Tex” Hancock Interviewed by Alyssa Kammerman 24 October 2023 RootsBridge LLC Mission Statement RootsBridge cultivates connection in communities and families through the transformative power of storytelling. Our mission is to compassionately record life histories, honor unique experiences and promote empathy through shared narratives. By encouraging individuals to step into another's shoes, we cultivate deeper bonds between storyteller and hearer. In the communities we serve, we foster a sense of unity and compassion. We are driven by our passion for providing a platform for marginalized voices to ensure that every story is heard and none are diminished. We believe in a community where everyone feels connected and finds a sense of belonging. Project Description The Union Station Centennial oral history project is a companion to the Museums at Union Station’s “Heart of Ogden” exhibit, which commemorates the 100-year anniversary of the opening of the current Union Station building on November 22, 1924. In honor of the centennial anniversary, Ogden City contracted with oral historian Alyssa Kammerman of RootsBridge LLC to collect fifteen oral histories from community members who shared memories associated with the Union Station in Ogden. The interviews encompass the 1930s to the present day, thus documenting the period when Union Station was actively functioning as a train station and its subsequent transformation into a museum and cultural center. Community members interviewed included former railroad employees, Union Station employees, residents of Ogden, city employees, and museum volunteers. The diverse range of interviewees reflects the diversity of Ogden and provides a comprehensive view of Union Station’s impact on the community as a cultural hub and a place of shared history. ~ Oral History Description ~ An oral history is the spoken account of historic events in one’s life from the unique and partial perspective of the narrator. It is a primary source and unique interpretation of one’s lived experience. Rights Management This work is the property of RootsBridge LLC and The Museums at Ogden Union Station. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching, and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text / as long as credit is given to RootsBridge LLC and Ogden Union Station. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Hancock, Paul “Tex,” an oral history by Alyssa Kammerman (RootsBridge LLC), 24 October 2023, Centennial Oral History Project, Museums at Union Station, Ogden, UT. Oral History Interview October 24, 2023 Interviewer: Alyssa Kammerman Interviewee: Paul “Tex” Hancock Abstract: This is an Oral History Interview with Paul “Tex” Hancock, conducted October 24, 2023, for the 100 year anniversary of the Ogden Union Station. This interview was conducted at the Ogden Union Station by oral historian Alyssa Kammerman of RootsBridge LLC. During this interview, Paul recalls his childhood memories of riding on the train with his father who was a conductor for the Union Pacific Railroad in the 1940s. He shares stories of working for the Western Union Telegraph Office in the Union Station during the 1950s and his memories of Ogden, 25th Street, and the way the city came alive with the passenger service at the Union Station. Pauls’ wife, Lynette, is also in the room and shares her memories of some of the social activities available in Ogden during the 1950s and 1960s. AK: Today is October 24th, 2023. We are in Ogden Union Station, interviewing Paul Hancock for the Union Station Centennial Project. Paul’s wife, Lynette Hancock, is also joining us behind the camera. My name is Alyssa Kammerman and I’ll be conducting the interview. So Paul, let’s start out with when and where you were born. PTH: Okay. I'm Paul "Tex" Hancock, and people know me as Tex. And I was born on August 22nd, 1940 at the old McKay-Dee Hospital on Harrison Boulevard. And I would have had a brother, but he was born in 1934 and he died in childbirth. And so my mother was 42 years old in 1940 when I was born, and so I wound up 1 being an only child and always worried about being accused of being a spoiled brat because I was an only child. And, of course, my parents really treasured me because I was the only child. My father at the time was a conductor on the Southern Pacific Railroad on freight trains, and during the war, when he was on the freight trains, he was very busy. He was called in many times – several times each week.They would have a lot of raw materials because it was during the Second World War, and he would catch the train here in Ogden, and he would go to Carlin, Nevada, and that's where he would get off and stay in a hotel. And he usually stayed out there, and then he would pick up the train coming back this way out of San Francisco. So my mother, when she brought my dad to work she would never leave me alone. She would always bundle me up and bring me with her, whether it was to bring my dad to work or go pick him up, middle of the night, any time during the day or night, I always was taken with her. She wouldn't leave me home alone. And so when I finally reached the age of going to high school, I asked my parents if it would be okay for me to find a job – because again, back to I'm an only child, you know, ‘spoiled’ and whatever. And so they said, "Sure, that's fine with us." And so I interviewed at the Western Union office on 24th Street and Kiesel – that's where the office was located. And on 24th Street, just above on the corner of Kiesel, was a finer foods restaurant, and next door to it was the Western Union office. It's long been gone, but that's where the office was. And so I was hired initially as a Western Union delivery boy for telegrams all over Ogden. 2 And so, kind of interestingly, it never failed: I'd have a telegram that I'd go deliver on my bicycle, say, North Ogden. So I'd go out there to North Ogden, come back to the office on 24th Street, and invariably there would be another one for North Ogden. So I just got back from North Ogden and I have to go back out to North Ogden. And one time I was going up 24th Street to way up in East Ogden, one of the higher streets up there, and this guy that was walking up on the sidewalk yelled at me and took off chasin' me. I never said anything to him. And so I pedal like crazy to get away from this guy, and I don't know what he'd have done if he'd caught me, but anyway, that was kind of an interesting thing. And then, like I said, I delivered telegrams all over the city and lots of different things. One time, this lady came to the door with nothing above her waist to sign for the telegram and, you know, things like this. Well, then, anyway, in 1956 and '57, when I was a sophomore in high school, I interviewed for the job down at the Union Station and the Western Union office was in the far southeast end of the building. And it's still there, but it's remained dormant for years and years and years. And during the time that I was working, Union Station was just teeming with people. It had the big, long, wooden benches for people to sit on, and people were going and coming and just, it was entertaining. It was a very, very busy place. And 25th Street was very, very busy also. And a lot of bars, prostitution, you name it. In fact, the famous story of Al Capone, the gangster that came here one time and went up 25th Street and made the statement: "That street's too rough for me." And so anyway, 3 that was kind of the situation there where the street went, you know, how it happened. So when I was delivering telegrams all over Utah, I worked two days a week. I'd drive a bike down from 40th Street and get here as soon as I could after school, and then I would work until it got just about dark. And then I'd work on Saturday for six hours. Then when I started working for the office down here at Union Station, what I would do, I'd report up to the main office at 4:30 in the afternoon. They give me a leather bag with some currency and coins in it to make change. And so then I would jump on my bike, get down here to the office here, to the Union Station. And so there's several things that, sometimes there would be a telegram come in for someone that was on one of the passenger trains. So I would jump on my bike, go up 25th Street and over to the office, pick up the telegram, come back here and go down the steps and then go to the track, the sign where the particular train was, and different trains, and go up and get on the train where the person was supposed to be. And then I would go through the train, you know, "Telegram for Mr. Larsen," whatever, up and down the train 'til I hopefully found the person, give him the telegram, and then come back into the office. When a passenger would come up and want to send a telegram, I had the phone there, phonebooth-type, and they would call the office on 24th Street, dictate their message, and the stenographer up there would type it. And then I get on the phone and ask, "Okay, what's the charge? What do I need to charge 4 him or her?" They'd tell me, and then I'd charge and give 'em any change or whatever on what they were paying, and then that would take care of that. The hours were from 5pm to 10pm, and there was another boy too, because I didn't work every day. I worked on Tuesday and Wednesday, and then I would work on Saturday from 5:00 until 10:00 at night. So by the time I had been hired here to be down at the train station, my parents had bought me a car to drive back and forth to high school and so forth. And so what I would do: I'd load my bike in the car and park as close as I could to to the Western Union office, and then get my bike out and get over to the to the office, make sure that I was there by by 4:30 and pick up what I had just mentioned, and then gettin' down here at the train station by 5:00. And so other than going up to get a telegram or working with someone, that was what I'd do. Then at 10:00 at night, I would gather up my money and my leather bag and turn out the lights in my office and ride up 25th Street at 10:00 at night. And at that time, all the bars and everything. And then I would stop at the Greyhound bus station on Grant Avenue and 25th Street and go into the Western Union phone booth there – where people could go and send a telegram – and get the money out of that phone. And when I'd get the money out, there would be drunks layin' on the seats there in the train station most of the time. And they'd hear the rattle of the coins and they'd perk up. And so by that time when they were finally coming awake, I'd have my money in my little leather pouch and I'd jump on my bike and head over [laughing], head over to the office and turn in my money and head home. So that's kind of the experience that I had when I was working. And 5 my pay was, I think it was $1.50 an hour at the time, which was pretty good then [laughing]. Kind of going back a little bit: When I was about nine years old, my dad got approval for me to go out on the freight train with him. And his crew was really great. And the brakemen on the caboose, they treated me like I was one of the crew. And I got to sit either up high on whatever caboose he had that night or the ones on the side where, and we'd look for hot boxes; And hot boxes are the packing that they would put in the wheels of the train to keep them from getting too hot, but sometimes they did get hot and a fire would start, and they used to call it 'hot box'. And so then they'd have to stop the train and go and take care of the problem. And so, anyways, I went out on the train, and then we got off in Carlin, Nevada, and I got to stay with my dad in the hotel where he always stayed. That night, I had dinner with him and everything, and then got on the freight train as it came back through into Ogden Union Station. Later, my dad was the conductor on the City of San Francisco, one of the major trains that came through all the way from St. Louis. I think it was going all the way to San Francisco and then coming back this way. So, that was kind of the story, and in all of my experience when I was a young boy, being able to see all of the interesting things that occurred and 25th Street the way it was then. It was during the Second World War, and there was a lot of military members that were coming through. And a lot of times, they'd be up 25th Street going to the bars and everything like that. So I was always trying to 6 be cautious when I was going up 25th Street to get the money or deliver a telegram or anything. So that's about it. AK: So you said you were trying to be cautious of the soldiers? PTH: No, they weren't interested in a kid going up the street on a bicycle. They were mainly going in and out of the bars and stuff like that. AK: Were your parents worried about sending you out on 25th Street at 10 at night? PTH: I'm sure it's firstly my mother [laughing]. My mother was the type that, one time I wanted to go waterskiing up to Pineview Dam, and some father had a boat was going to be doing the drivin', and there was some other friends of mine, and my mother was, "Oh, what if you drowned?" You know, just being... My dad finally said, "Look, let him go." And so anyway, I was fine. Yeah, she was, but she was... 'cause, you know, I wound up being an only child, and she couldn't have another child after. She was too old, basically, to have another child. So, yeah, they were very loving, very great parents. My father and one of my uncles who lived next door to us on 40th Street, Lamar Tellis, founded the Weber County Mounted Sheriff's Posse. And at the time, in 1942, there was a worry by the United States that Japan might invade the West Coast after Pearl Harbor. And so they were a mounted posse, they carried weapons and everything. And then that never happened with the Japanese, we know. And so then they became a posse that performed at rodeos. And so my dad, he was a horseman. He always had horses. He worked, as his mother died when he was like a teenager, and he and his older brother lived 7 down in Lone Pine, California. And he worked as a wrangler on a ranch. So he was a cowboy. And so we had horses and everything, and then the posse and things like that. So that was a great, great time. We had a friend from Nevada that had a ranch out there, and we went out wild and gathered up the wild horses and stuff. Of course, that has nothing to do with the Western Union, but it was fun... I had a great, great childhood. AK: Sounds like it. So I'm curious to hear a little more about the Western Union office here in the Station. So you said it was on the east side of the building? PTH: It's on the southeast side, right in the very corner. And the last time I saw it, it was still there. And I think they're going to try to make it look like it was during that time. At least, I hope they do. And I think it's very, very important that they maintain this building because it has such a historical value. AK: Last time you saw it, was there anything in there? Or was it completely empty? PTH: There wasn't, as far as I could see. I mean, I didn't go and try to look inside, but it looked like there wasn't anything that was left. AK: So you said that there was a Western Union office here in the Union Station, and then there's also one up 25th and Kiesel? PTH: Yep, the main office was up on 24th Street and Kiesel, and that's where I would have to check in when I came to work. And then at 10:00 at night, when I'd close down the office here at the train station, then I would go up there and get the money from the bus station and then go in and turn in my money and then go home. So by the time I got up there and turned that in, it was 10:30. And I was 8 happy to have the car then, because a lot of times previous to that, I'd be going home after dark and riding my bike all the way to South Ogden from downtown Ogden. AK: So, what did you do while you were in the Western Union location here during the day? PTH: Mainly I was, oh, once in a while reading a book, but most of the time I was getting my studies done because I was in high school. So I'd use the time when someone wasn't, wanting to send a telegram, or me going back and forth getting telegrams and delivering it on to the person on the train, I was pretty much involved just getting my school lessons. I was a good student. Good student. And in fact, when I was a junior, I ran for student body president. I was pretty popular. And my wife now, she was the campaign manager for the fellow that was running against me, and he won. And I always used to say to her, [laughs] "If you'd have been my campaign manager, I would have won." And then she'd say, "Well, then you wouldn't probably 'a married me." [Laughing]. So, anyway. AK: [laughing] That's a good story. PTH: We've had a wonderful, wonderful marriage. AK: So the Western Union desk that was here, was that mainly here for telegrams, then? PTH: Yes. The Western Union office down here was strictly for Western Union telegrams. But if someone on the train wanted to send a telegram, or if someone sent them a telegram, they didn't have the title type and everything here, so that would come up to the office on 24th Street. And so then it would list the name 9 and it would list what train the person was on coming through Ogden, and so then I'd hotfoot it up there, then get the telegram, get back here and go out on the train. And like I said, you call their name and then hopefully find them on the train and get 'em the telegram. AK: Okay. So the telegrams would come through the main office when they came in? PTH: Yeah. AK: Were they usually Morse code, or were they called up on the phone at that point? PTH: Someone would call them, and they'd say, "I want to send a telegram." And then the one fellow I remember up there who was kind of in charge of the office, he was [fast noises], he was really fast. And they could just talk to him over the phone and he'd have [points at ears] headphones on, and he would type it out. And then, as you typed it out, it would be sent over the wire or wherever it was going to. AK: Did you ever get to see the content of the telegrams, or were they in envelopes, typically? PTH: No, I saw the content, yeah. That was the time frame, too, that, during the Second World War, when someone had got killed, that's when they delivered telegrams. And when I got through with high school, I went to Utah State, and I was in the Air Force ROTC, and so I spent a career in the Air Force. And one time, I delivered one of those telegrams to a mother whose boy had just died in the military. It's... [Shakes head] I'm glad it only occurred once, that I had to do that. 10 AK: I had wondered about that, where I knew a lot of communications from the military would come through telegram, including the death of a loved one. That's interesting, yeah. Sad. PTH: Yeah, I was stationed in Pennsylvania at the time and my wife went with me to go do that. Sad experience. AK: So at the time, where telegrams cost money, was it always important information that was sent through telegrams? Or was it ever, like, love letters? Like what kinds of things did you notice? PTH: Oh, mainly they were just informative. "I'm going to be arriving at such-and-such time." Sometimes personal things. I never did really see anything that was, you know, risque or anything like that. It was mainly “I’m arriving at such-and-such time,” and the certain plans they had, you know, all different things that people were concerned about or, you know, families and stuff like that. So that was it, mainly. AK: That's fascinating. So I've always been curious: So, just from movies I've seen and such, it looks like telegrams, they would have a sentence, and then it would say, “STOP.” Correct? And then another sentence and then “STOP.” Why was that? PTH: I don't know why it said “STOP” rather than just a period. Good question. I don't know why it said that. So that's about it, unless you had some more specific questions. AK: I do. I'm curious, what kind of car did you get in high school? 11 PTH: Oh, it was a Chevrolet Coupe. It was about a 1948, I think, green car. So that was fun to drive, and I drove back and forth in the car to high school and that. AK: That's fun. So I know during World War Two, obviously, there were a lot of military that were coming through the Union Station. Did you see a lot of military during the Korean Conflict time period as well – which was the '50s, right? If I remember correctly? PTH: Right. Well, Korea was like '53 and I was working here in 1956, so there was still a lot of activity in the military. And they would come through on their way to different stations and things like that. AK: Okay. That makes sense, especially with Hill Air Force Base being close, and Defense Depot Ogden. PTH: Yeah, Hill Field, and there was a lot of military that was traveling. The main thing with the military, why there was so many; that was during the time in the '40s when my dad was conductor on the freight trains. And then he later became the conductor on the City of San Francisco. AK: And the City of San Francisco, is that also freight as well? PTH: No, the City of San Francisco was a passenger train. AK: That's good to know. So your dad was a conductor, but he took you on the caboose. Was he on the caboose with you a lot of the time, or were you mostly there with the crew? PTH: Yeah, no, he was the conductor on a freight train, which they no longer have. The caboose can pick up any problem with the wheels, you know, hot boxes or anything, which they don't have the problems like they used to. So you don't 12 even see a caboose on a freight train anymore. But the caboose was very important at that time. There was usually the conductor and at least two brakemen, and they would be looking, and the conductor was the one responsible for the train – not the engineer. It's the conductor. Like I said, when I was young, when I got to go that time, I would be doing what the brakemen were doing and helping them look for a fire, you know, hotbox on the train. So, you know, I felt pretty important, getting to do that. AK: That's so fun. Okay. So I think I get the conductor and engineer mixed up, because the engineer is one who drives the train, right? PTH: The engineer is driving the locomotive, and then the conductor was in the caboose with the brakemen on the freight, and then on the passenger train, the conductor was still the one responsible for the train, but he was working back and forth onto the train, you know, and was working with the passengers that were on on the train and just checking to make sure everything was okay and things like that. AK: So how would you check for hot boxes? PTH: By the time my dad... Pretty soon, right after he left, they didn't have to worry about the hot boxes anymore. And the trains now – and I don't know the mechanical part of it – but they've developed where they don't really have to worry about the hot boxes. They've engineered and improved the wheels on the trains. And so, like, you'll see a freight train and it doesn't have a caboose anymore. It was important to look for those hot boxes, but they don't... And now, with all the electronics, any problem on any of the cars, the engineer will be able 13 to see that, you know, in the cab of the engine. So, it's really been a lot of improvement since back then. AK: But at the time when you were nine and checking with your dad, what did that entail? How did you guys check the hot boxes? PTH: Just visually. Some of the cabooses had a lookout port on top of the caboose. And some of the newer ones, the side windows extended out about that far [holds up hands] on both sides. And so you could sit there, and you could have someone sitting on both sides looking down the train for any hot boxes or any fires. And like I said, now you hardly ever see a train with a caboose on. AK: And you guys would sleep in the caboose and such, right? From what I remember? PTH: Yeah. And those mainly... You're expected to stay awake from, like, here to Carlin. So when the conductor and the two brakemen that got on, they really were not authorized to really sleep. They were supposed to stay awake and do their job and so forth. My dad was... I don't know how he did it. He was able to almost memorize every car that was on the train, and what it was carrying and everything. And when I was in the Air Force, I worked as an aircraft maintenance and munitions officer, and so I kind of was the same way in the sense that certain aircraft would have certain problems, you know, where there's just some sort of an electronic problem or a UHF problem or something. And they got to the point where you, in your head, remembered the tail number of the aircraft that had usually had certain types of problems that kept reoccurring. Those types of things [laughs]. 14 AK: Makes sense. Interesting. That's really cool. So back to your time working in Union Station. Were there any interesting people that came through that you remember? PTH: You know, I thought about that, and there was no person that I remembered that was famous or anything like that, or gave me a hard time, or was someone that, you know, you always remember that you saw that person or you had dealings with that person. It was mainly just straightforward, like a man or a woman that remembered that they needed to get a hold of somebody or had something happen that they wanted to send a telegram. AK: Were you pretty busy usually? PTH: Yeah, pretty much. I had time, most of the time, to be looking at some of my homework and stuff like that. But yeah, between someone getting a telegram that was on one of the trains and then getting up to the main office on 24th Street, and then getting back and getting out to the train while the train was still here. Sometimes they would get a telegram at the main office for a passenger train that had not yet arrived here. And so I had to get up there and get the telegram, get back here, and then be ready to go out onto the train when it finally arrived. I don't recall ever missing finding the person on the train, or any time when the message got to the main office and the train had already passed through. So every time, I was able to find the person. AK: Did you have to use the tunnels a lot to get out to the different trains? PTH: Oh, yeah. That's how I got to go down the steps. And then you would go in there because the trains were in the lower level of the ground, and so you go down the 15 steps. And then they had signs of where the different trains were, like City of San Francisco, and all the different trains, and waited for that track. And so then you go up the stairs to the ground level, and then get on to the train. One interesting thing: when my dad passed away, there was a Black fellow named Spotlight King that – my dad always treated the porters very well – and he came to the cemetery and stood off to the side, and then came up after the services there and told me how much he loved my dad, and how wonderful my dad treated him. AK: That's really cool. Was that mainly with the San Francisco line, that he worked with the porters? PTH: That was when he was on the City of San Francisco. Yeah, when he was on the passenger train. Yeah. And Spotlight King was one of the many porters, you know; they helped people with their baggage and things like that. AK: A lot of people have told me about how diverse Ogden was while the train was here. Do you have memories of that? PTH: Oh, yes. It was so busy. There was, I don't know, there must've been 25 different rails out there. They had freight trains, all of them coming through or going or waiting, being filled. Or passenger trains. It was just, I mean, it was a busy, busy, busy, busy yard, you know. It was really something. AK: And was it mostly Utahns or was it people from all over the world? PTH: People from all over that would be traveling through from the East Coast and so forth, going back and forth. It was really booming. It was a busy, busy, busy time. 16 AK: So I've heard a lot about the thriving Black community and especially the jazz scene on 25th Street. Did you ever go into the Porters and Waiters Club or listen to the jazz music that was out there at the time? PTH: No, just, you know, I delivered a lot of telegrams out on the lower area where a lot of the Black people lived in there. Once in a while I would have, like, if it was on 25th Street or that area, I'd have some person that was inebriated, he would say, he would say, "Hey, kid. Hey, let me have your telegram so I can deliver and get the tip." [Laughing] And I'd just ignore him, you know, just keep pedaling on. AK: How long would it take you to bike to some of these places like North Ogden, South Ogden? PTH: Quite a while sometimes. Let's see. I'd leave, and depending on where it was in North Ogden – and let's say it was in the central part of North Ogden, it'd take me... probably half an hour to get out there and deliver the telegram and then half an hour to get back. And then, like I said, couldn't believe the number of times you get back there and there’d be another telegram that I'd have to ride out to from North Ogden, or maybe next time it'd be to up in Washington Terrace or something. So yeah, I really had good legs and all that [both laugh]. AK: So when you got your car, did you stop using your bike, or did you still have to use your bike sometimes? PTH: I was supposed to use the bike all the time. But sometimes I [laughs] when I had too many to get, you know, I would go ahead and use my car. AK: Why were you supposed to use your bike all the time? 17 PTH: I don't know. I guess it was the idea of being a Western Union boy was you're supposed to deliver your telegrams riding your bike, at the time, so. AK: So was Western Union a railway at the time? I'm trying to remember. PTH: No, Western Union was strictly a telegram-type service at that time. And there were telegram offices all over throughout the United States. AK: Do you know when they stopped using telegrams? PTH: I know that they were very active during the '40s, and then I think the early '50s, and then – you probably need someone that’s a little more familiar with the history – but I think somewhere around that time with the improvements of communications and everything that kind of fell off as far as using telegrams. A lot of times the Western Union then developed to where they were then handling money. And I don't know all of it. I believe you can still wire money through Western Union. AK: Oh, really? Interesting. I actually looked up Western Union and I thought it was a bank. But I wonder if it is like a money-wiring service now or something. PTH: I mean, you know, with the cell phones and everything like that now, not many people actually send, like, a telegram to somebody. Yeah. AK: I wanted to ask, what high school did you go to? PTH: I went to Weber High School, and that was the old high school that was on Washington Boulevard, just beyond 12th Street. And so, you know, now it's way over where Weber High is now. So, yeah, that was the old school, where I went. AK: And did you grow up in Ogden, then? Or were you South Ogden? 18 PTH: Yeah. And like I said, I grew up on 155 40th Street. It was just where Wall Avenue comes and there's Riverdale Road, and then Wall Avenue comes to Riverdale Road, then you go right across Riverdale Road and then go up then that's 40th Street. So I lived on 40th Street, yeah. AK: That's right. You did say that. And the other question that I just remembered was, did you notice at the time a lot of homeless or drunks, or anything like that, trying to stay in the Union Station? Trying to sleep in there? PTH: Uh, sometimes, but not too much. In the train station, I hardly ever saw anyone that was inebriated and creating a problem or asking people for money or anything like that. Then about the only time that I ever had a problem, and it wasn't really a problem, at a bus station when I stopped in there to get the money out of the Western Union phone booth, and then there were sometimes drunks that were laying on on the benches in there, and then they'd hear the rattle of the the coins. Now, that was about the only time that, you know. And then every once in a while, like I mentioned earlier, when I was delivering a telegram down in the 25th Street area or somewhere around there, where somebody that was obviously drunk would ask me to let them deliver the telegram so that they could get the tip, you know? AK: That’s so funny [laughs]. What are some of your other memories of 25th Street at that time? PTH: That time, it was really... Hadn't developed like it has now, and the city council has done a good job of cleaning up in all the prostitution and having so many bars – there's still bars and that there, but. And they've done a good job of seeing 19 that restaurants that have opened up and other things have opened up. And I have a son, my youngest son, that has a business that is called Senior Sign, that improves the amount of time it takes to sign up for people that are going into some of these assisted livings, and his office is on 25th Street. So it's, you know, it's not like it was when I was working in Western Union down here, when it was mainly a lot of nightlife and bars and things like that. AK: Were there any restaurants and such that families would go to, or was it strictly for bars and partying? PTH: Yeah, there were some, mainly on the fringes. [To Lynette] What's the restaurant off of 25th Street that you could go to during that time? LH: [Inaudible]. PTH: Oh, okay. Yeah. Not many at that time... You just didn't go down to eat. They had places where you could go in and eat and have food, rather than just drinking, but it was mainly bars. I mean, not any place you'd want to go to as a family to go out and try to get something to eat or something. AK: Any other memories of Union Station that you would like to share? PTH: I've enjoyed the museum part of it. One thing that I donated was the original minutes of the posse, Weber County Mounted Sheriff's Posse. I had donated that to the Western Museum they have here, the original minutes of their meeting. I don't know if anybody ever looked at them, but I made that, and they were glad to get that. AK: That's amazing. Were you ever part of the Sheriff's Posse, too? 20 PTH: I was not a member of the posse, but I was a horseman. I got pictures of me sitting on one of our horses and, you know, just a little teeny kid. And then we had one horse that was just a wonderful horse. Pictures of me straddling, looking out, like the horse's head this way [points straight forward], and I'd be holding the horse's front legs and looking out from the horse. And so, yeah, we always had horses. And my mom was with the women's riding club called Silver Spurs. They'd practice in Murray like once a week, and so we'd load her horse up in the truck, I'd take my school lessons with me – and this is before I started working at Western Union – and we'd go down to Murray. And then I'd be in my lessons and then fall asleep in the truck going back. And that was before the freeway, so it was on the old road all the way down there and all the way back. Took a long time [laughs]. AK: That's really cool. That's fascinating. And so did you inherit the meeting minutes from your dad's time with the Posse, then? PTH: Oh, yes. Yeah. So I had the minutes, and those are the minutes that I donated to The Western Museum here at the train station. AK: That’s awesome. So what are some of the differences you've seen in Ogden between its time as a railroad town versus now? PTH: It's much calmer. Like I said, 25th street was just teeming. There was a lot of passenger trains. Now, it's not the same. It's all basically Amtrak now, and there's not that many either. And so there's not the passengers. There's still the freight trains, but it's not... It was just busy, busy all the time. There was trains going and 21 coming all the time, and more and more people, you know, especially 25th Street and different things. There were a lot of stores down on Washington Boulevard, you know, a lot of the clothing stores and everything there. And there'd always be a lot of people shopping. I'd come down with my parents, and there would be just hundreds of people, especially like on a Saturday. And even during the daytime there was just hundreds of people down there in Ogden. And now it's hardly any people. You know, I come and we go into Egyptian Theatre or whatever, and you always see a few people, but back then, during the daytime, there was all sorts of people going from store to store, and that was before the malls. And so if you wanted lived in Ogden and you wanted to buy a new dress or a new suit or something like that, you came downtown. It's not the same. It's all, you know, “I'll go to the mall now.” AK: Or online shopping [laughing]. PTH: Yeah, that's it. I think that some of the mall stores, you know, you go into some of them, and there's hardly anybody in there because it's online shopping. I know my family, my extended family, my son and his wife and that, they almost exclusively buy online. AK: It's changed a lot. So that actually brings up an interesting point. So if you weren't into wanting to go on 25th Street to, you know, drink or whatever, what were some of the entertainments that were family-friendly in Ogden that you could go to? LH: The Orpheum. The Egyptian. 22 PTH: Oh, yeah, the Orpheum Theatre and the Egyptian Theatre, and there was a Paramount Theatre. Uh, I can't think of the other ones, but. So it was mainly, you know, movies, go downtown, going to movies, and there were restaurants. And when I mentioned like Finer Foods restaurant on the corner of Kiesel and 24th Street, and there was a bunch of them up higher on 25th Street, of course, right across from the park there. And then there was, you know, like it is now, restaurants going north and south out of Ogden. So yeah. AK: I think I heard something about dance halls, too. Did you ever go dancing? PTH: Not that much, but I did a little bit. [To Lynette] But do they still have the dance hall on 24th Street? LH: We used to go to the White City all the time to dance. That was a big dance hall. PTH: Yeah. And then there was one on 24th Street about.... Oh, between, I don't know, between Wall and Grant, or above Grant. It's up on the second story there. Anyway. I think it's still there, but I'm not sure. AK: Is it the Berthana? Is that what you're talking about? LH: The Berthana was for roller skating. AK: Roller skating, that's good to know. LH: Then later it became a dance place, but you could go in and do the shoe skates, [inaudible]. Sometimes they have the live orchestra playing the music, playing to skate by. AK: No way, that's amazing. LH: Shorty Ross was the name of one of the orchestras. It was wonderful. AK: Shorty Ross. What kind of music was that? 23 LH: Just the popular music of the day; Waltzes and stuff. You always tried to look really neat, too, while you were out there skating. AK: That is so fun. I love that. PTH: When I was in – well, I still play the guitar, but I was part of a band when we were just kids in high school. There was another guitar player, and me and a gal that played the piano and then she could sing too. And so we used to play for dances, make a little money doing that [laughs]. AK: Did you have a band or was it just the two of you? PTH: Yeah, it was. I can't remember what we called it. But anyway, there was a steel guitar player and guitar player here, and then a piano player and a bass player. And so, yeah. So we had quite a few dances that we played for. And that was after Western Union time. AK: So it sounds like after the Western Union, you said you went on to the Air Force. Is that what happened? PTH: That was after my college degree. I went up from Weber High School. I had a scholarship at Utah State University. So while I was getting a degree there, I was also in the Air Force ROTC. So upon graduation with my degree, I was commissioned second lieutenant in the Air Force. So then I went into the Air Force and spent a career in the Air Force – 20 years in the Air Force. And then after I retired from the Air Force, I went and got an elementary education degree and taught sixth grade for 16 years after I retired from the Air Force. AK: That was probably as scary as the Air Force at times [laughs]. 24 PTH: Oh, I'll tell you what, my experiences in the Air Force helped me be a good teacher. One of the worst mistakes I saw teachers do is try to get on the same level as the students. You know, be buddy-buddy with the students. You can be friends with them, you can let them know you love them, you're concerned about them, and you're there to teach. And so I was very fair – firm, I guess you'd say. Firm but fair. And I had sixth graders basically the whole time. And so if you don't control the situation when you're teaching and you're not prepared or you don't know how to effectively just... Someone's talking, you know, it's like, "Hey, Linda, please, I'm trying to help." And most of the time, no problem. Had good kids most of the time. So it was good. So at least when I was in the military, I had time to put my foot up on the desk once in a while and visit with my cohorts, you know? But when I was teaching sixth grade, I didn't even hardly have time to go to the bathroom during the day. It was so busy, but it was good. It was a good experience. Made lots of friends. I've got some kids that still say, "Oh, hi, Mr. Hancock," you know [laughs]. AK: [laughs] So we are getting close to the end of my questions, but I have a couple of questions that kind of popped into mind. Since I found you through our stake president, I assume you grew up as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Is that correct? PTH: Yes AK: Okay. So most of the people that I've interviewed have talked about the wild side of Ogden and everything. But I'm curious about the perspective from a Latter-Day 25 Saint. So was there a pretty big population of members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints? PTH: Oh, yes. Yes. My wife, she was a Wolthius, and their extended family, her grandfather and grandmother, joined the church over in Holland. And he had a freight ship that he owned and sold out and came to the United States. And they were active. And then eventually out of that Wolthius family, one of the Wolthius' became mayor of Ogden. And so they're pretty well-known, the Wolthuis'. And so anyway, there was a lot of people who came from Europe and settled here in Ogden. AK: Interesting, okay. So even during the '50s, there was a pretty big Latter-Day Saint population too? PTH: Oh, yeah, yeah. Lots of different nationalities have come to live in Ogden. AK: Okay, perfect. I was just curious with that. Did you have any participation in developing the museums here when they started doing that? PTH: Not actual responsibilities or anything other than the donation I made for the Department. That was about it as far as anything that way. AK: So just to wrap up, I have a few questions I’ve asked each person I’ve interviewed: First is, how is the Union Station still important to Ogden today, and why preserve it? PTH: I think it's really one of the most important historical buildings that needs to be maintained for people and keep the history of Union Station with the trains alive, and then go ahead and continue to have the other museums, you know, the firearm museums that they've got here at the John M. Browning, who was such a 26 great inventor of firearms, and maintain the big area where people can have different functions here and everything. I just think that it would be a very, very big mistake if they tore the building down and tried to get something else here. AK: What can the community do to help Union Station stay relevant for future generations? PTH: Well, first of all, starting at the mayor and the council: I feel that they need to make sure that the Union Station is not torn down and that as many different organizations or museums and things like the car museum they have and different things will have an opportunity to come in here. And I think the shops and that they have, I think that's good – and then the restaurant they have over on the other end. Anything that they can develop to keep it where people will continue to come, I think it's important. AK: Oh, that reminds me, actually. When you were working in Union Station – I'm sorry we keep bouncing back to that – but was there like a restaurant over there at that time? I think I heard something about that. PTH: I don't think there was. LH: There was a little, kind of like a snack bar on the north end. PTH: Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Just a small little snack bar, but not like a regular restaurant, like there is over there now, so yeah. AK: Okay. Okay. Do you remember anything else? I think I heard there was a newspaper stand in the main area, too, right? PTH: Yeah, they had newspapers, yeah. LH: And a shoeshine. There was a guy that had a shoeshine stand... 27 PTH: Oh, yeah, there was a shoeshine fellow there, you could get your shoes shined. Yeah, I remember that. And like I said, it was just people going and coming all the time, you know, getting tickets or coming with their bags and people being let off, out of cars and getting into the train station with their bags, you know. And there's porters that would come and say, "Can I take your bags?" Of course, you'd give 'em a tip, they'd take your bags and get your bags on to the right train and everything for ya. So, yeah, it was... That's all gone. AK: That's cool. Do you remember, was the shoeshine guy, was he a white person, African-American person…? PTH: The ones that were here were Black – The ones that were here at the time I was here. AK: Interesting. And then there were the porters. And were there also the red caps at the time too? PTH: Yeah, yeah. Then the porters were the ones they called red caps, weren't they? I think so. They wore red caps. And I don't know whether there was anything they had on their uniforms that signified who was in charge, as far as the porters went or anything. But I remember there used to be, on each one of the passenger trains, they would have a porter that helped people with their bags and helped the ones that had a berth where they could sleep, you know, get them there. And then you could always eat on the train, which was a big deal, too, when you're going someplace on the train to always have a meal, you know? I mean, that was pretty fancy to do that. 28 AK: Do you remember... I'm thinking about what our airports are like now, where there's gift shops and such. Did they have gift shops or convenience stores in the Union Station? PTH: I don't recall. They had where you could get a magazine or the newspaper. And I don't remember there being that curio shop and different things like there is now. And I think those are important to stay here. As much as they can get in here, you know, and be good. AK: Did they ever have any community events or anything that happened at the Union Station? PTH: Oh, yeah. [Lynette] Tell her about that. LH: May I interrupt? AK: Yeah, please do. LH: Our family is the Wolthius family, and my family of nine landed came into New York from a ship, and they took the train, and they disembarked here at the Union Station. Quite the event. So a few years ago, we had a big family reunion. We had over a thousand people. We had the whole center of the Union Station reserved, and we had tables, and they catered the meal. And we reenacted the group of the family that came. It was significant. And of course, that was the last time the Wolthius family got together, that, thousands, [laughs]. You know, not really, but hundreds. PTH: And then they've had a lot of other events here for... LH: We had our high school class reunion here. 29 PTH: Yeah. And I think they have continued to have class reunions here. [To Lynette] In which building? LH: Oh, we've also had Christmas performances. There's a group called "Kids for Music" that I've played for, and it was a big festival of the trees kind of thing there, and we would sing. It was wonderful. That was a very well-attended activity. AK: Did they ever have any community activities while the Union Station was still a train station? PTH: I'm sure they did, but I don't remember any at this... It was primarily, you know, trains. Everything was trains at that time; they never had the Browning Arms Museum, and then that other museum on the trains. They didn't have those here. It was mainly officers and people that were working here at the train, you know, the people who were taking care of selling the tickets and the porters, and... Everything was pretty well related to the trains, other than my Western Union. Well, of course, that's related too. LH: It was tracks as far as you can see sitting here. It was just mind-boggling. You go underneath the steps and you wander off until you find your track and your train. It was exciting. PTH: Yeah, it was just... I mean, it's hard, you know. We remember it because we saw it, but someone that's not seen it, it's, you know… If you talk about every one, and so many of the tracks have been taken out, just imagine maybe 10 or 12 more tracks than are out there now, and freight trains and passenger trains, and everything was just, it was goin' and comin' and being loaded, you know, for the 30 freight trains. And of course, some of them, they had to go further that way to get loaded and that. But anyway, it was just completely full of either passenger trains or freight trains, either goin' or comin'. I mean, it's like now you look out there, it's dead. And that's the change. AK: A big change, yeah. Perfect. Well, thank you so much for meeting with me today. PTH: You bet. AK: I think that's all my questions, unless you have anything else. PTH: No, I just appreciate you being so helpful and guiding me and letting me know that you like to hear what I have to say. AK: Of course! Thank you so much for all your preparation and your amazing stories. I'm really grateful you guys were able to make it out. 31