Oral History Program Tyler Bock Interviewed by Jim Miles 19 November and 6 December 2022 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Tyler Bock Interviewed by Jim Miles 19 November and 6 December 2022 Copyright © 2025 by Weber State University, Stewart Library Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description Queering the Archives oral history project is a series of oral histories from the LGBTQ+ communities of Weber, Davis and Morgan Counties of Northern Utah. Each interview is a life interview, documenting the interviewee’s unique experiences growing up queer. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Bock, Tyler, an oral history by Jim Miles, 19 November and 6 December 2022, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, Special Collections & University Archives (SCUA), Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Tyler Bock conducted over Zoom in two sessions on November 19 and December 6, 2022. The interviewer is Jim Miles. Tyler talks about growing up gay in a military household and how that shaped his experiences. He also discusses his own military career, his marriage, and his struggles with depression. Also present is Grant Ulrigg. Content Warning: This interview contains suicide ideations and mentions of hate crimes. JM: The date is November 19, 2022 at approximately 11 a.m. My name is Jim Miles. My pronouns are he/him and I just identify as the general queer umbrella. I will be conducting this interview. On the side of me, we have Grant Ulrigg. GU: Hi, I'm Grant. I identify as a gay man, and my pronouns are he/him. JM: And we're interviewing today? TB: I am Tyler Bock. My pronouns are he and I am gayer than a teacup. JM: Love it. We've already gone over our code of conduct and set up boundaries with the participants. So as long as you're ready, Tyler, we’ll jump into the interview. TB: Pitter-patter, let's get at ‘er. JM: Okay. We'll just start with the very basic question, when and where were you born? TB: I was born in Great Falls, Montana, obviously in the US, August 16, 1989. JM: Okay. Great Falls, Montana, August 16, 1989. What did your family dynamic look like just growing up? TB: My parents are very traditional, like old-school Catholic, Republican. You go to work, you stay at that job no matter how much you hate it. You get promoted, you get married, you have kids, and then you essentially just start the cycle again. My dad kind of ventured off from that and joined the Air Force, and my mom wasn't, how she got pregnant with my sister. Then two years later, I came along. By that point, we were living in Montana. When I was about two years old, we moved to England, Europe. 1 JM: Okay. That's quite the jump in backgrounds and cultures. How long did you stay in England? Europe? TB: We only stayed there for three years. Unfortunately, because I was so young, I don't remember a ton. I definitely do remember two things. Number one, I remember playing in the Rose Gardens as a kid because [with] my dad being in the Air Force, obviously housing was provided, but it was just too small for our family. We lived offpost in a little town called Sussex and the house was huge. Every weekend when my sister and I weren't in school, we would go and play there and there were castle ruins and all kinds of cool stuff like that. The other one that I remember is where I went to school. It was one giant building. It literally started from a daycare to preschool, kindergarten, first grade, all the way up to seniors in high school. It was one giant building and each year was a different grade. JM: So, as you get older, you just move up a floor? TB: Yeah. JM: Well, that sounds fun in a way. TB: In a way. Also, it was there that I learned that I have ADD and ADHD, so that kind of was a huge shifting moment in my life. JM: Okay. Why was that a shifting moment for you? TB: I had to be taken out of class like once or twice to go to special ed. I didn't quite understand why I had to take medication. I didn't understand why. It honestly wasn't until I was like seven, eight years old—a couple of years later, when my family moved back to the States. By this point, we were living in Idaho—that I learned about my condition. JM: Okay. How did you learn about that condition? You remember being told? TB: As you may or may not have been able to tell, I have a bit of a speech impediment. I stutter sometimes. The best way to describe it is the average human brain has like 2 those little sparks. That's what creates thought to have X, Y, Z, all that stuff. For somebody with ADHD, it's like there's sparks and thunder, and when there's a lot going on, like I'm getting frazzled or there is lots of shit being thrown at me, it's like that plus some wind and some rain. So it's like a storm is going on, almost like someone's constantly flicking the channel on the TV and you're trying to concentrate on what's going on with the first thing that you noticed. To answer your question of how I knew about that is like any little boy, you start getting into fights. Most kids—or little boys, I should say—start to notice girls, little girls start to notice boys. I just wasn't experiencing that, so naturally I was a flood of questions and my parents said, “You have ADHD.” I have Attention Deficit Disorder or Attention Hyperactive Disorder. All right. My queerness wasn't necessarily something that I thought about, but I did notice that I was looking at guys more than playing with them. I preferred to play with girls. JM: Okay, so about what age are you starting to notice these first hints of queerness? TB: Around that age, around eight years old. But at that age, you're a little ignorant to the world. You don't know about what's going on in the Middle East. You don't know what makes a car drive. You don't recognize that stuff. You just don't think about it. You just think that this is who I am. What's going on in terms of questioning the normality of it, given my surroundings? I would say around 11 or 12 when puberty hit, like that. JM: Okay. Let's step back a little bit then, since we're already kind of talking about the topic of queerness. What were you taught growing up about being queer? What did that look like in your family? TB: The best way to describe it is my mom is a Barbie wannabe, basically. She wants to be Barbie, but she's very much not. My dad is metrosexual G.I. Joe, so he was in the Air Force shooting the guns and all that crap. But he could justify dressing up as 3 the evil queen for Halloween. Like I said, he's metrosexual, but he is also quite straight. In terms of being taught, it was just something that was just kind of part of my household. It wasn't really something we sat around the table and talked about. One of my aunts is gay, one of my uncles is gay. So I just saw them and just knew what it was. But in terms of being taught in-depth, that didn't come until a little bit later. JM: Okay. That's a unique perspective to some of the other people we interview. How do you think that affected your experience of queerness, just as a starting point of that kind of accepting place compared to, maybe, someone [who] would have grown up in very religious Utah? TB: I got pretty lucky because growing up when I would get into a fight, I would misbehave, whatever, my dad would always be the one to say, “I love you with all my heart, no matter what you do.” Because of my lisp, my parents knew that I was gay very early on, even before I did. I like to play with dolls, all of that. I would often walk around in my mom's nightgown because it was super silky and shit. So it was definitely a welcoming household when I was little, I think because my parents held out a little bit that I would grow out of that phase. But once the time came for me to come out, my dad was pretty accepting. It took my mom a minute though. JM: Okay, we'll get to that stage of life a little later. Another one we like to do in tandem is, what were you taught about gender roles growing up? TB: Boys are boys. Girls are girls. Plain and simple in terms of like cis. Non-binary, that's something that wasn't even acknowledged. In my house, my parents then and still very much believe that there's only two genders. I mean, if somebody were to ask them, “Can you please identify me as they or them,” they would respectfully do so, but then turn around and say, “Why? Why do you choose to do this?” instead of just, “Okay, this is just how they are.” 4 JM: Yeah. So you were given kind of a traditional understanding of male/female roles, breadwinner and housewife? TB: Oh, yeah. JM: Okay, cool. That kind of establishes a little bit of a baseline of where you were growing up. So, moving around a lot; you start school in Sussex, England. You then moved to Idaho. You're about second grade in Idaho? TB: Yes. That's actually one of the sucky grades that I had to do because I had to repeat it twice because of my ADD. It was kind of heavier, I had to repeat the second grade. JM: Okay. How did that feel, I guess, just generally? TB: It broke my heart. I felt very stupid that there was something wrong with me, that I couldn't advance with a few friends that I did have. I had to stay behind and it's almost like the pack was moving on and I had to be left behind to fend for myself. Now, looking back as an adult, okay, that's just the card that I was dealt with. But in the moment, obviously it fucking sucked. JM: Fair enough. So, the adjustment from moving from England to Idaho, what did that look like for you and your family? TB: It was kind of rough just because my parents are very private people. Obviously, those pivotal, important years as a kid, I didn't see my grandparents. I didn't see my cousins. I didn't see any of my aunts and uncles because we're literally on the other side of the planet. Then once we did get back, naturally, everyone wanted to see us, but my parents were very much, “No, no, no, just let us come to you.” A couple of years later, when I turned 10, we got news that we were moving to Alaska. JM: Okay. Tell us about Alaska. 5 TB: Alaska was very beautiful and I would say that was a very transformative time period in my life, mostly just because it was very dark and I contemplated suicide a few times. That's where I went through puberty. I was bullied, and it is still to this day the darkest period of my life. However, it's where I learned about nature and it's where I learned about things outside of my scope as a person that the world does not revolve around me. So with the darkness, there was also a light, and I am thankful that though I had to experience that dark chapter of my life, I got to see the light as the reward, if that makes sense. JM: Okay. What area of Alaska did you move to? TB: We lived on Ben Eielson Air Force base. It is about half hour or 45 minutes south of Fairbanks. Yes, very, very small base. The junior high and the high schoolers all went to one building. JM: Okay. Yeah, it's a very small town. You mentioned it's kind of a dark period in your life. What led to it being so dark? TB: I don't know if you've met people in Alaska or are familiar with Alaska. It's very much do or die. Either you keep up with the pack or you get left behind. I was struggling very bad academically. There reached a point where I was getting straight F's, and unfortunately, I pretty much just don't have friends. I don't know if it's because of my queerness. I don’t know if it’s because, honestly, I'm kind of a socially retarded person. But I did the best that I could with what I had and it is what it is. That's when I really started to notice my being gay. It was beyond playing with dolls, because at that point I was 10 going on 12, somewhere around there. Obviously, I'm not playing with dolls anymore. I'm looking at action figures, but not in that regard. When I'm in the locker room and changing, I'm looking at guys, and that's when it's like, “Oh shit. Okay, they're all talking about girls, but I'm not. What's 6 wrong with me?” So, all of that plus puberty—basically, everything created that perfect storm of a hole that I was stuck in. JM: So you start to notice your queerness. Are your peers starting to notice it around you? TB: From what I could tell, yes. Unfortunately, it wasn't very positive. I had more or less two friends and we were cool. We were always hanging out, playing cards, watching TV, snowball fights, all that crap. But then when I started, as I call, peeking out of the closet—you know, making jokes and stuff like that—they started abandoning me. I was kind of left to fend for myself, eat lunch by myself, go to school, come home, and just kind of hang out in my room. So to answer your question, I didn't have the best support from my peers, but I'd like to think that it gave me the tough skin I have today. JM: Okay. Well, nice to find a silver lining in that. Did you have any support groups that you were able to start talking about your queer identity in those early periods? TB: No. My mother, like I said, when I started coming out, she had a hard time while we were up there and I was going through a hard time. My family dynamic was very much falling apart. My sister had to be checked into rehab for bulimia and my parents were going through a separation period. My mother started drinking pretty heavy and unfortunately, there were some physical abuses that happened. My dad was always, always on TDY deployment, and so he would be gone for months and months at a time, come home for a little bit, and then turn around and go again. So I didn't really have a support. However, as passé as this may sound, I had media to help me. I was obsessed, still am, with Britney Spears; love her music. It always has put me in a good mood. I saw queer people on TV like Will and Grace, Six Feet Under. I was aware of gay people; unfortunately I either saw them as basically like the clown 7 from Will and Grace, or I saw it as tragic, because around that time I learned about the AIDS epidemic. That's kind of like, “Okay, I'm gonna peek out of the closet and I'm going to go right back in.” JM: Yeah. You brought up the AIDS epidemic, which is kind of a pivotal moment in every queer person's life, when they had to learn about it. How did you first get exposed to it? What were your thoughts about it? TB: I don't remember exactly how I learned about it. I just remember that's around the time that I learned of it. I just remember thinking, “That is so sad. I cannot believe that that happened,” and to a community that I did not know at the time that I identified with. I just remember it made me very sad. JM: An apt description of that time. That's a lot to deal with at 12 years old. Is this also kind of compiling on those dark thoughts, like you're realizing you are part of a community, but it's already experiencing these things? TB: Yes, and like I said, I saw gay people in the media, but it was either like the clown, the comedy relief, or the AIDS epidemic. It's either one or the other. It was around there that I'd like to think I kind of got my sense of humor, ‘cause I've been told that I'm a pretty funny dude, and I just knew that I didn't want to be part of one or the other. There was like this little voice in the back of my head that said, “There is a middle ground. You can reach that middle ground.” Looking back now, I realize that was just my conscience telling me that it's okay. You are okay. Everything will be okay. But you know what it's like to be a pre-teen and going through puberty, being gay. It's kind of a lot to deal with in the moment, so you do what you can with what you've been dealt. JM: Yeah, absolutely. I had another question I was going to ask, but I’ve forgotten it. Let's jump back a little bit. “Don't ask, don't tell” kind of starts and I believe your dad is in the military. What's your exposure to that aspect? 8 TB: Unfortunately, I didn't really know about it until later in life. Like I said, my dad was pretty gay himself for a straight man, but he just didn't really talk about it. He doesn't talk about politics growing up. Mostly just because he is more or less a neutral party, even though he is registered as a Democrat and my mother is a Republican. It's just, yeah, we'll get into that later. Politics wasn't really something we talked about growing up. So, in terms of “don't ask, don't tell,” I didn't really know anything about it at that age. I did experience it a little bit later in life when I was 18,19, and I tried to join myself. I figured it's a matter of, “This is my own private business, none of theirs. I'm here to do a job and let me do my job.” JM: Okay, so you mentioned during this period that your parents are separating. Do they stay together, or do they divorce eventually? TB: No, they're still together. It was a very rough period. My mom was experiencing empty nest syndrome because at that point my sister was like 14 or something like that, and this went on for years. Finally, my mom decided to go overseas to Baghdad in Iran and do volunteer work. She went and did that. My dad was still doing deployments. Fast forward a little bit, my sister is like 17 and she is now holding full-time jobs. She's healthy, finally, and she's also going to school, so she decides to move out and do her own thing. I unfortunately was kind of left to fend for myself. This went on for about two, two-and-a-half years until finally my dad was getting ready to retire. He and I decided we were going to move to Washington, to his hometown, so I could finish high school. JM: Okay. We covered a lot of ground there. I'm trying to think if there's anything we haven't touched on. You're finishing high school in Washington. Did you start high school in Alaska? TB: Yes, by the time we left, I was technically a sophomore. But because we were in the process of moving down to the other states, they decided to just get me into Kelso 9 High, the high school I went to a little bit later, instead of having me start in Alaska and then just transfer all those credits. I basically just got an extended summer break. JM: Okay. You covered a lot with your family during that period of Alaska towards the end of it. Were you finding a support system to help supplement that lack of family? TB: Kind of. Like I said, I had attempted suicide twice during that time. My parents decided to put me into therapy just to talk to somebody, so I did have that little bit of support. I talked with my sister a little bit, which was kind of nice. But honestly, it was up there where I really discovered art. I had always been sketching, doodling little stuff like that, but then I really discovered the art world up there. Even though I didn't have someone, a physical person to talk to, I had all of these beautiful, gorgeous images and people like Mark Wright and Vincent McGrath, who I felt like I could identify with because their work was dark and I felt dark inside. I would do my best to kind of replicate it or just do anything to just let all of these emotions out. JM: That's really interesting. You've mentioned a few artists that you kind of connected with. What were you doing? Is there an art scene that you became a part of, or are you just doing it at home? What does it look like? TB: Are you talking about back up in Alaska? JM: We can move on to Washington if you'd like. I was talking about Alaska, but wherever you want to go. TB: So, I don't know if you're familiar with Mark Ryden. He makes pop surreal art. It is very, very out there, stuff which I absolutely love. There is an image of this very pale girl crying blood. There is another image of this woman strolling through a garden in a dress completely made out of meat. There is another image of this midget with a pumpkin head, and he's basically leading an orchestra of insects. It was just so out there and weird and different. I thought, “Hell, yes. I have no fucking idea what this 10 means, but it's different, like me.” That's why I just naturally gravitated towards it. In terms of Vincent Van Gogh, he himself was a dark person. He was a very misunderstood individual. Again, being misunderstood myself, I just read anything and everything that I could about him. JM: That's a very interesting perspective. I like that you kind of tied in these feelings of feeling out there and then experiencing that. Having just Googled Mark Ryden's work, that seems an apt description. Very, very surreal. Not my cup of tea, but I can appreciate that it is someone's. TB: Yeah. JM: Okay, let's move on then to Washington and starting high school. TB: Like I said, by that point I am a sophomore, so only have three years left of high school. JM: Okay. How does that move to Washington look for you? TB: I saw it as a rebirth because I knew that things were rough in Alaska. Things were very dark and shitty, and I vowed to never be in that place again. I made myself a solemn vow that I will not let that happen. Come hell or high water, I will not be that low or be that person again. So what I did was I more or less reinvented myself. I put myself out there, talk to anybody and everybody. People in such a small town, of course, were like, “Hey, are you gay?” To which I would usually retort, “No, are you?” The move was pretty good. It kind of sucked a little because I had to sleep in my grandmother's trailer because my dad was up in Alaska taking care of all that stuff. He was still trying to patch things up with my mom. My sister was up there doing her own thing, so my grandmother very much understood that I was a gay teenager just trying to get out, to go and do something, anything. She let me have free terrain for probably six months that I was there. I was never home. I was 11 always out with friends. I was always doing something, hanging out, it was pretty cool. JM: Okay, so you mentioned a friend group that you've kind of got down in Washington. What did that friend group look like? TB: Not to sound passé here, but I hung out with the outsiders. I rolled with the kids that ditched class and got stoned behind the school, the kids with purple and pink hair, the emo kids. The ones where there's like five kids smushed into one bed in a trailer park. But they didn't judge me for being me, so I didn't judge them for being them. I had a great support system with them at that point. I was 16 going on 17, and that's when I really started to come out. JM: Are you able to talk to this friend group about that? You mentioned their support system or their support system for your queerness. TB: They just didn't handle it in a mature fashion. They'd be like, “Dude, you're gay. Just come out, we don't care. Nobody's going to care.” Then you naturally go on to the defensive. Looking back now, I think it was just their way of saying, “We're here to support you.” But there wasn't really a way to convey, “Hey guys, this is a very personal and very private experience. Could you be a little more sensitive, please?” JM: Fair enough. We've all definitely had those kinds of people where you are like, “I'm glad for the support, but maybe not the right way.” TB: Yeah. Let's edit this a little bit. JM: So you're always out with friends. What are you doing during this time to keep yourself busy? TB: Honestly, we're just walking around and talking because Kelso is a pretty poor town. Nobody really has any money, so we would just walk around and just shoot the shit. we would go to somebody's house, just listen to music, watch TV, go to a playground when there was snow—we would end up playing in the snow. Basically, 12 stuff that teenagers do without the financial stuff because their parents, unfortunately, weren't well off. I had an allowance, of course, but I wasn't ready to pay for five meals if we went to Denny’s. JM: At what point in time does your dad come and join you in Washington? TB: Like I said, about the six month mark he comes and joins me. Everything's good, everything's great. Then he starts to look for a house for all of us, because my mom officially decides that she's ready to come back home. Mind you, at that point, she had been gone for like two and a half, almost three years, so I didn't know the dynamic of my parents’ relationship. Like I said, they're very private people, and that's something in their eyes they just didn't talk about with their kids. JM: Okay. Your mom's coming back to move in with you. When did that happen? TB: It was a little awkward because my mom made very good money doing work over there. She was the general manager for the PX, which is like the general store for soldiers to get groceries, food, clothing, handbags, shoes, whatever you can think of. So when her and I would get together, we would be like, “Come on, let's go shopping.” She'll be like, “Do you like this?” and she would just buy bags and bags and bags of shit. As a teenager, it's like, “Okay, cool. Thanks, Mom.” But she was trying to make up for the time that she was gone. Unfortunately, that also caused a little bit of strain with my parents because my dad is a hardcore penny-pincher. Her coming back, it was great to see her again, and I love her and I really wish we could have just sat and talked. Unfortunately—given at this point, you kind of have the general idea of who my mother is—it just didn't happen. But I would say that awkwardness lasted for six, seven, eight months after my dad got back. Then my mom came and joined us and we moved into the house. 13 JM: Are you still dealing with the alcoholism and abuse aspect of things? TB: My mother is still a pretty heavy drinker; however, she's learned to kind of control it a little bit. Physical abuse has been off and on. The last time she put her hands on me, I was 19. I don't think she would now just because I'm a full-grown ass man and I'm not afraid to stand up for myself. But my dad is also insanely protective of my mother, and he has always said that “If you ever put your hands on your mother, we are going to throw down.” That is the end, and mind you, my dad is a very big dude. He's like 6'2, 250lbs. JM: You've mentioned that in Alaska, you were really struggling with grades. Does this change of scenery improve that at all? How are you doing academically during this time period? TB: Like I said, I got a complete rebirth; my grades skyrocketed. I got mostly A's and B's. I found that healthy balance of, “Okay, I can go out and have fun, fuck, just be a teenager, but still do well academically.” My grades were phenomenal and actually remained so throughout the rest of high school. I mean, I wasn't, like, on the honor roll or anything, but I knew that—lack of a better term here—I wasn't stupid. JM: So you have a friend group that's being supportive in their own way—let's put it that way—of your queerness. Are you experiencing any reactions at high school, or just around town to your queerness? Is it positive, negative? TB: To my queerness, it was mixed because like everybody else, they're like, “You're gay, come out.” Or I'd be walking down the hallway: “Fag.” We've all been there. It was a very small town. A couple of times, beer bottles got thrown at me from a drive-by, but I never once felt like my life was in danger. It was just closedmindedness. JM: Okay. When would you say you officially come out? 14 TB: It was actually around that time. I finished my sophomore year, life is going great. I found a group of friends who were old enough to have a car and we drove to Portland, which is about 45 minutes north of Kelso. My group of friends, a few of them were also gay, but of course, everybody else I was like, “No, I’m not.” We went to an underage club called The Escape and basically it was a teenage gay club. There's just something about hearing the music, everybody is loving each other, smoking cigarettes, just doing our thing. That's basically when I came out, just before my 17th birthday. JM: Okay. Do you get romantically involved with anyone? TB: Quote unquote, ‘romantically’. I had a few boyfriends, but if I'm being blatantly honest, I was kind of a hoe. Because you're in a small town, you don't really know anybody. “Hey, what is this on the Internet?” You start hooking up with guys, randomly. I think for the first couple of years that I was out, I racked up like 20 lovers. JM: Did the environment you're in cause any issues? TB: Not entirely. The only person that really knew about it and said something was my sister and a gay friend of mine. They both said, “It's understandable what you're doing. You need to be safe because somebody can come over there and they could kill you. You could go over to somebody's and they could hurt you. They could rob you, beat you up.” That's when I really learned about safe sex. I learned about the giant impact of the AIDS epidemic. Like I said, when I was younger, I knew what it was, I just didn't know exactly what it was. So that's when I did some research on my own. “Okay, this is what it is, this is what's out there. This is why we need to be safe.” So that shifted my sexual experience in terms of safety. 15 JM: Okay. I want to come back and talk about how the Internet affected your coming out and your queerness. But first, I feel like we should probably cover coming out to your family. Did that happen about the same time you came out to your friends? TB: Yes. The night I came out, my sister was the first person I told because she was there with me. I'll actually take you through everything. It was a fun night: nice crisp evening from a hot day to a nice, low, cool night where you can rock your ripped jeans. No shirt on, music's playing. It's fucking incredible. This really attractive guy asked me to dance. “Sure, no problem,” and he turns me around and he kisses me. This is the first time that I have been kissed by another guy and it's like the music stopped. I just felt this wave, this rush, and something in me just clicked and said, “Okay, I'm gay. There's no denying it. This is awesome.” So I went outside, I told my sister, and yeah, I guess you could say the rest is history in that regard with her. With my dad, I did have a formal sit-down with him and told him, “Dad, I want you to know that I'm gay.” He looked me dead in the eye and said, “You think?” So it wasn't exactly the emotional story that I thought would come about, but he was insanely supportive. He said, “Son, I know you're gay, I've always known you're gay. I'm just very proud that you're man enough to admit that to yourself.” He gave me a hug and that was kind of the end of that with that. With my mom, like I said, she knew that I was gay, she just had a hard time accepting it because I never did the formal ‘sit down and tell her’ just like I did with my sister and my dad. They obviously just told her and she just knew. At that point, she started drinking a little bit more. Her and I started butting heads a lot because my mom isn't homophobic per se, she is just uncomfortable seeing the gayness. Like, if my husband and I are holding hands and we give each other a peck on the cheek, she doesn't care, but she's not going to go to Pride. If she is walking through 16 the store and she sees a lesbian couple, she doesn't care, but if she sees one of them has a T-shirt that says, “Whee! I like Vaginas,” she's going to get uncomfortable. JM: Is there a particular reason you didn't have a sit-down with your mom? TB: Honestly, I think maybe at that point, just because I told all my friends, I told my dad at home, my sister. I just didn't really see the point in telling her just because I, unfortunately, am a lot like my mother, so I figured she just kind of just knew. There wasn't really a point in telling her. Although, looking back now, I'm kind of wishing that I had because maybe from her perspective, she felt kind of left out of the family dynamic of me telling them. JM: Okay. We've already mentioned having that support in their own way. Did you feel like your dad was supportive? He gave kind of a similar response to your friends, but did it feel supportive? TB: Absolutely. My dad's always been supportive in terms of, “Sure, I'll meet your boyfriend. Sure, I'll give you a loan so you can buy your husband his wedding ring.” He's always been pretty supportive, but my mother won't go to pride. He won't go to PFLAG, for the parents of LGBT students. But again, I don't quite understand why, given he knows how to… He listens to Barbra Streisand and he's gone as the Evil Queen for Halloween. I just didn't quite understand where and why that line is there, but it is what it is. I'd rather he be supportive in his own way then completely write me off, so I'll take my victories. JM: You know what, that's fair. Comparing what other people have experienced with their parents being supportive and all, I can see why you'll take what you can get. TB: Yeah, exactly. JM: Let's kind of walk back to where I mentioned. Let's go to the Internet. How did that kind of shape—‘cause you grew up at a time where the Internet's kind of just really 17 starting out. You haven't got the experience of the younger demographic that grew up with Tumblr and social media. You're not the older demographic who didn't have it. What was that like growing up with the early internet in queerness? TB: I realize now that it was almost like a constant advertisement in terms of what I should be, because like at that point there was also Abercrombie and Fitch everywhere. MySpace, with these super chiseled guys with all these MySpace friends and you could instant message some random guy who could pull in a photo offline. You just don't think about that stuff. So growing up in the early days of the internet and being gay, I consider myself lucky because yes, all that stuff of like the ‘perfect guy’, of what I needed to look like, it was there. It could have gotten very, very bad. There was a point where it did get kind of bad, but not to the point of extremity. JM: That's a very unique perspective, thank you. We did miss 9/11 actually, as one of our historical events we like to try and touch on. I'm sorry, I thought that was towards the end of your high school. Probably close to the beginning. Do you remember anything from that? How did that—I mean, your father's in the Air Force. TB: Yes, I do. I still remember that. That morning, I came downstairs just like any other day, getting ready for school, and my dad's sitting there watching the TV. My dad never really does that. He's very much like me, or I guess I'm very much like him. Very much get up, get ready, “Hey, come on, let's do this. Let's go.” He's sitting there watching the TV, so it just kind of caught me off guard. I was like, “Dad, what's going on?” He was like, “A plane crashed in New York.” “Oh, shit,” and I'm watching it. Of course, I saw those infamous images of the smoke rising up, like what the fuck? There was something in the air, even though it was just our house, that something big was coming. Something had happened. 18 The phone rang, one of us answered it, and I found out that school was canceled for the day. “You need to stay at home. Do not answer the phone. Do not go anywhere.” My sister got woken up. She got informed what was going on. My dad immediately got into his uniform and he told me and my sister, “You do not go anywhere. You do not use the telephone. You do not do anything. You just need to stay here until we figure out what the hell is going on.” I had gotten that impact, and at that age, I was 11. I was very young, and I just knew something big had happened. As far as the details of how everything that day goes, unfortunately, I don't remember. I just remember me and my sister just holding each other, crying because it's like, “Holy fuck, are we under attack? What's going on here?” It hit us pretty hard, and then it hit me again when I joined the military myself. JM: Well, we're kind of wrapping up high school. When do you join the military officially? Just so I can be aware of that. TB: I joined the military at 30, so a couple of years ago. JM: We'll get there, then. I'll try and roll as chronologically as possible. Grant, do you have any questions that you can pick up? GU: No. I mean, every question has been answered. JM: Cool. [To Tyler] Do you have anything else you feel like sharing about your high school years or prior? TB: Yes. When I was in Alaska and I was going through that dark phase, I discovered religion. I just remember wandering around the base one day, and I just walked into the church and it seemed welcoming. I started talking to some people, I felt welcomed, and I became a Christian. I remained a Christian until I came out. I was in that period of good little Christian boy, come out, maybe I can do both. Then something happened when I was 17. I was out. Honestly, when I was 17, that was 19 probably one of the best years of my life because my grades were good, I looked great, everything was wonderful. I had tons of friends. I was always doing something. I got my dog. I think around that time I also discovered weed. I also discovered a friend who would later become my brother-in-law. We were just always, always partying: drinking, smoking, just really living it up. Then the summer leading up to me being 18, I think I went overboard because I stopped doing track. I had done track ever since I was in junior high. I was amazing, and I stopped doing it. I had a paper route I quit, then just relied on my allowance. I started smoking cigarettes pretty heavily. Then my senior year happened and I guess reality sunk in where, “Okay, fuck, I can't do this forever. Shit.” I had no idea what I wanted to do with my life. My dad unfortunately kept pressuring me to get a job: “Get a job, get a job. Doesn't matter, just get a job.” So I went through odds-and-ends jobs for a couple of years leading into my 20s. I basically wrapped up high school. Also, the summer that I turned 18, that's when I kind of denounced religion, like, “No, no, no, no, this was a farce. I hate this, this is stupid. You don't support my community. Fuck you.” JM: What denomination were you? TB: Christian. JM: Just Christian in general? TB: Yup. JM: Cool. You did mention your parents were Catholic or that they were. Are they still Catholic during this time period? TB: So I say Catholic because that's predominantly what my dad was raised with. My mother was technically raised Catholic, but she is a hardcore atheist and she always has been. 20 JM: Okay, so there wasn't any religious kind of running up against each other? TB: No, my dad was also very supportive of me being Christian, and then when I denounced it… JM: Okay, fair enough. That's a little bow on that question then. So you wrap up high school. Graduation. What do you do immediately post-grad? TB: Honestly, my parents gave me $1,000 as a graduation present, and I wanted to actually take some time off for myself because I kept trying to get into the military, but I couldn't get past the ASVAB and I just couldn't get the passing score. I was like, “All right, I guess that's just what it was meant to be,” because I did it probably five times. Finally, I guess defeated, I realized this just wasn't meant to be. I wasn’t meant to join the military. Like I said, I used that $1,000, pretty much turned around and gave it back to them and used that as rent because as soon as I graduated, my dad started charging me rent. Looking back, I understand why he did it. I still think it was kind of a dick move, but he is who he is. I did odds-and-ends jobs here and there. I worked at the Goodwill for about a year. I started working at Kohl's. I worked at sandwich shops; I did that for about two years. Then, I want to say about six to eight months after I turned 20, I met my husband. JM: Okay. You're six to eight months after you turned 20, so we are sitting at… what is that, 2011? TB: 2010. JM: Okay, sorry. TB: Yeah, you're good, man. JM: So that's 2010, but another one we like to ask is more of a California-centric question. Do you recall the Prop VIII initiative at all? TB: Unfortunately, no. Like I said, I wasn't pretty big into politics just because [it was] something we didn't talk about growing up. I was aware of it, I just didn't look into it. 21 I definitely remember Barack Obama being elected president and that being the first time that I voted. It made me very happy that my vote did count because there was actual change. JM: Okay, so you're working odds-and-ends jobs. Are you still living with your parents at age 20? TB: Yep. Attractive, right? JM: Hey, that’s a path. Are you still doing art during this time period? TB: Yes. I did art throughout high school. I got all A's. Unfortunately, because now I was out of high school and had to get a job to pay for my own shit, I was restricted to basically just a sketchbook. I did little bits here and there, all that stuff. It was also around there that I really exploded with reading. I discovered the passion of reading because all the way up until I was like 17/18 I was very anti-book. I hated reading. JM: Any particular books, authors, you're really enjoying during that time period? TB: There was a book series that I discovered that really helped me come out. It's called the Rainbow Boys by Alex Sanchez, and that's the reason why I loved it. I identified with it so much because it's literally about that. It was about these three gay high schoolers, and each one is essentially at different ends. One is super loud and flamboyant and colorful, one is the average Joe, and then one is the straight jock realizing that he is gay. So those books helped me not only come out, but helped me discover reading. JM: Okay. Let's get to the moment everyone's been waiting for, meeting your husband in 2010. How'd that go? TB: It happened by accident, honestly. So around that time, that's when Facebook really started to gain momentum and stuff. Smartphones were just barely coming out and Facebook had one of those random-ass dating sites like Zoosk or some shit like 22 that. Well, just went through there and I saw him and I was like, “Okay,” just like any dating profile. “Okay, he's cute. ‘How's it going? I'm Tyler.’” We were emailing each other for about two weeks, and then we exchanged phone numbers and we talked a few times. Then finally, after about a month or so, we decided to finally meet. I met him on the front porch of my parents’, and our first date, we just went for a walk. We literally went to a greenbelt that was a few blocks from my parent’s house, and we walked for like two hours and just talked about absolutely nothing and everything. We talked about religion, we talked about politics, we talked about our lives growing up, our interests, hobbies, all that crap. Then after we were done, we decided, “Hey, let's keep this going. Let's go out to dinner.” We went and had Chinese food. It was disgusting, and this is when I guess you could say I first really saw something with us. When the check came, we both were like, “No, let me get it. Let me get it.” He threatened to leave me at the restaurant if he didn't pay. It's like, “Okay, chivalrous, and you have a sense of humor.” JM: Fun story. That date experience, how long in the relationship was that? Like a month in? TB: Roughly, yeah. JM: We're still in 2010. Are you at all starting to think about the possibilities of gay marriage, and you becoming aware of that fight that's happening? TB: It was something that I was aware of. Unfortunately, I just didn't know how I, as an individual, could have helped or really talked about it or anything. Because again, my mother was one of those people that would actively say, “Honey, nobody cares that you're gay, but marriage should be between a man and a woman. You know that, right?” 23 Like, “No, and I think you're wrong.” Unfortunately, being the traditional parents my parents are, if I were to say something like that, they took that as a sign of disrespect. So it's just something we didn't really talk about or acknowledge until I met Chad because he and I did talk about it a little bit. Not with each other because we literally just met, but we agreed that it should be for everybody, ourselves included. JM: So you're dating Chad now. You're starting to feel things are getting serious. How long till he starts feeling things are getting serious as well? TB: Oh, God, this is one of my favorite parts of our relationship. We met at the end of April, and we were dating all the way through August, at which point it's my 21st birthday. We go to Vegas; we had a fun time. My dad announces to me that I have until October to move out, ‘cause he said, “You're 21 years old. You have a job. There's no reason for you to still be living here.” Chad being the giant fucking teddy bear that he is, he immediately stepped in and said, “Why don't you just move in with me?” We knew it was something that we weren't prepared for just yet. We had just started dating, so we talked about it. At that point, we had spent a couple of nights at his place; he had spent one or two nights in my room, in my parents’ house. They didn't even care. So we decided, “Fuck it, let's see what happens.” That's when things did get serious, to answer your question, because we essentially bypassed the dating and the honeymoon period and went straight into nesting. It was pretty rough at first because I discovered things about him that I didn't like. He discovered things about me he didn't like. We kept going back and forth, really butting heads, but one thing that I've always prided myself on with my marriage is that we've always talked. We may argue and scream and do stupid shit, 24 but we're going to talk about this and we're going to fix this. He's always been pretty receptive to that. JM: Awesome. Grant did inform me that he needs to leave by 12:30. This is kind of an appropriate stopping point anyways. Is there anything you want to talk about, leading up into it in the last 10 minutes or so? TB: I would say at this point in my life, that was about like half of my younger self leading up to Chad. The next part is going to be about being with Chad, our ups and downs, my military career, going to college, experiencing depression again. I think that would be a good stopping point, and we'll go over all that next time. JM: Okay. So I just took in some notes about things we need to cover. Thank you so much for being willing to do this. Part 2: [No date given] JM: We are back interviewing Tyler Brock. This is the second interview. We are going to kick off chronologically in a little bit, but he did remember some things that he wants to bring up for us, so we will kick off there. Before we get to that point, I should just reiterate that I am Jim Miles. I am going to be the primary interviewer again. With me is Grant Ulrigg, and we are over Zoom again. So, Tyler, you mentioned… TB: One quick thing. My last name is Bock, B-O-C-K. There's no r. JM: I'm so sorry. TB: It's the story of my life. I've had it all the way through high school. I still get mispronounced at work, so it's all good. JM: Well, Tyler Bock, we’ll fix the transcripts and anything I've written. Thank you for catching that. TB: No worries. 25 JM: Rolling into it, you mentioned before we got on that you had remembered some events around why you became an advocate for safe sex during high school. You just want to kind of kick us off with that story? TB: Yes. As I mentioned in the previous video interview, I was popular and then an old friend of mine was as well. She and I used to have sleepovers all the time. We didn't actually do anything physically; we were just really good friends. Then I remember waking up just itching like crazy, like, “What the fuck? I've already had chickenpox. What is this?” My father took me to the doctor and I was diagnosed with scabies. To hear that at 17, it just kind of makes you think, “Oh, fuck. Yes, I'm still young, but I'm not a kid anymore. I need to be sexually responsible.” After that, I came up with my own slogan: “No condom, no deal.” JM: Okay. You had an awareness of the AIDS epidemic, right? TB: Correct. JM: Did that play into it at all, that kind of feeling that you need to be safe? TB: It was not quite as big as it should have been because I can't speak for every teenager, and I hope whoever sees this in the future doesn't think that it's okay. When you're a teenager, all you're thinking is with your dick. You don't think about responsibilities. You don't think about the right thing to do all the time. You just want to go out and have fun. That's the way our brains are wired at the time. So it didn't influence me then, but now, when I do speak to it, I do say yes, that is a part of our history and that is something we can avoid. [Overlapping noise] Sorry. Our dog decided to get into the dishes. Don't get puppies, they are a lot of fun. JM: I've gotten to the point where I get at least one year or older. 26 TB: That's the thing—these two are about a year old. They're still like puppies, they're just big. JM: Mischievousness in there, but a big dog body. TB: Yeah. He's a golden retriever/husky, so he's a big boy. JM: That's a lot of energy in one dog. TB: Yes, it is. JM: So you come away with the slogan and this appreciation for safe sex. Did that cause any issues with partners, or was it a benefit with partners? TB: Before I met my husband, obviously I was still looking for sex online, and there were a few here and there that were like, “Well, why? It's not a big deal. It takes away the fun.” I wasn't like a dick about it or anything. It wasn't preachy. I just said, “Nope, sorry. This is my strict belief, and if you can't adhere to that, then we obviously weren't meant to fool around.” Everybody else, they were cool understanding about it. When Chad and I met he was completely on board, he was okay with it. In fact, the first like two months we were together, we vowed, no sex. We just wanted to talk and get to know each other. JM: Interesting. Let me look at my notes. Is this before your 21st birthday? TB: Yep. JM: Okay. Well, it sounds like we're getting pretty close back to where we left off. You mentioned a couple notes for us to ask about. The next one you want us to roll into was going to college and what that looked like for you. TB: Correct. I ended up going to college at the Academy of Art University because after I graduated high school, I just thought, “Okay, colleges are not for me. I don't want to do this. I'm already smart enough. I know everything.” You remember what it's like to be 18, 19 years old. But then for the three or so years, maybe, I just kind of 27 hopped from one job to another. It's like, “Fuck. I'm not going anywhere. I'm not passionate about what I do.” I just thought, “Okay, there's got to be an art school out there,” because realistically, most colleges adhere to the technology side of life, the law, stuff like that. There's not really any room for the arts. So when I Google searched, the Academy of Art University was one of the first things that popped up. I went through everything, it just really struck me. Everything is online. JM: Okay. When do you start attending the Academy of Arts? TB: I attended the Academy of Arts in 2011. That was about a year after Chad and I met, about a year and a half. JM: Okay. You've already moved in together as well, right? TB: Correct. We moved in in 2010 and I had just turned 21. I was about 22 when I enrolled at the Academy. JM: You've mentioned it's all online. That's something that people are now a little more used to, but that was still kind of new back in 2010, 2011. What was that like for you, going into an all-online university? TB: Honestly, it was just very new and foreign to me. I didn't really know what to expect because realistically at the time, yes, everything was technological. Redbox was around, Netflix was really starting to come about, smartphones were just coming out. I thought, “Okay, maybe they'll just email me everything,” or, “I just log in,” or, “I don't know what to expect.” It just blew me away, like, “Yes, this is perfect. This is how college life needs to be. I can go at my own pace. If I have a question, I'll just email my teacher. I can stay full-time at my job. This is the way it should be.” I'm actually still a very big pusher for that, that college needs to be solely online. You know, if some people do want to attend college in-person, that's wonderful. That's great if that works for them. I just feel that kind of takes away from you essentially having a life. There's no time for social gatherings. If your parents 28 aren't paying for everything, you have to pay for it yourself. That affects your income. It's just an all-around better option, in my opinion. JM: You mentioned you were expecting the email login, something like that. What was how it played out and what worked so well for you? TB: Basically what it is is you log into the website, you go to your class, and there is the syllabus and then there's the lesson for the week. You read the lesson for the week, and then they tell you what your homework assignment is. There is a section for online discussion to do, and you basically just do all of that and your homework needs to be submitted by the end of the week. Then once the next week starts, the next module opens up and so on and so forth, until the semester is finished. JM: Okay, so pretty standard to how online college and learning has gone now, but definitely a lot newer back in 2011. You mentioned you were doing a full-time job at that time. What are you doing for work? TB: In 2011, I was working at Kohl's and I had a pretty promising career there. Unfortunately, when I transferred stores, there was a different GM, and to put it subtly, he was a dick that nobody liked. Because I'm a perfectionist and I'm also a workaholic, he didn't like that. We butted heads a lot. JM: Gotta love those managers. Okay, you're working at Kohl's and you're doing online classes at the Art Academy. How long did it take you to get your degree through them? TB: So because I was going into college blind and I did not know anything other than ‘sign on the dotted line, you're going to college,’ I had to figure out about financing. I had to figure out about administration. The financing was the biggest problem because at the time, they said, “Well, because you're at this age, your parents need to sign for this,” and because my parents don't believe in college, they basically were like, “Okay, well, you need to figure it out on your own.” 29 It was very much, “Hey, FAFSA, my parents can't give me their information.” “Okay.” FAFSA is talking to the school, school says, “Well there's nothing we can do,” so unfortunately, I went for one semester and I had to put that on the back burner for about a year until I hit 24, and then I could finally resume school. It took me about six years to get my degree. I was about 29/30 when I finally got my associate’s. JM: Okay. Sorry, just taking notes. So it takes about six years to get your degree. What else are you doing during that time? Do you stay at Kohl's? TB: No, I went from Kohl's to Target and then from Target to Best Buy. During my time in college, I had about three different jobs, but they were all wonderful because they gave me a lot of experience and management. They gave me a lot of opportunities that I have always wanted in the workplace. I became an advocate for volunteer work because of my husband—he's an insanely humble person and believes in give, give, giving as much as possible. Unfortunately, I did not grow up in that kind of household, so it's like, “Whoa, what the fuck can I give? Hey, I got time, so I'm going to give it my time.” JM: What are you doing as volunteer work? TB: Honestly, a little bit of everything. The biggest one that I like to participate in is Stuff the Bus. It is an organization through the Salvation Army where they buy brand-new school supplies for children that are massively below the poverty line 'cause these parents, a good chunk are immigrants. They're just working two, three jobs at minimum wage just trying to make ends meet. Then they have to turn around, buy all these school supplies—which I guess they can't do—so what Stuff the Bus is they will literally hand these kids backpacks just stuffed full of school supplies. What I would do is help hand them out, talk to the parents, and hand out kettle corn. It's basically like a mini fair for all the kids. 30 JM: Okay, that's awesome. You mentioned you did a couple different things. Were there any other orgs you worked with? TB: Relay for Life is another one that Chad and I are both participants in. If you're not familiar with it, it's a way to raise awareness for different types of cancer. If you can get a sponsor, they will sponsor you to run around a track. I met Chad when he was working at Best Buy and they had a booth set up for raffle tickets. They donate money. I would help kind of solicit, basically, for people to come over to the Best Buy tent. Never got any sponsors myself, but never say never. Another one that I am very big in is the Susan G. Komen Foundation. Being a male, it makes things kind of taboo to go to those actual events. Usually what I'll do is I'll just raise awareness—emails, calls, social media, stuff of that nature. JM: Okay. So you do all this, mostly with Chad, while you were in college and also working at Best Buy? TB: Correct. JM: We'll get back into college a little more, but that's going to span six years. How are things going with Chad during this period? You mentioned they're a little rough from the get-go and you talked through it. How do things continue after that? TB: To be quite frank, we don't know if we were going to make it because there was a period where we kept breaking up and then getting back together where we would just have these huge nasty fights. I'm like, “Fuck this, I don't want this anymore.” Then the second I would step out the door, I would instantly regret it, or the second he would just leave I would beg him to come back. We basically went through that like four times. It was rough because we kind of kept circling back to the same issues. It finally hit a crossroad point where unfortunately, I was unfaithful. It's not something I'm proud to admit. However, it is part of his and I's storyline, and he just flat-out asked me, “You either want to be with me or you don't.” 31 I told him, “I do want to be with you, but these are my terms and conditions.” Things were good. Basically through those years they weren't bad, we just kind of kept circling to like two or three issues, and because those big issues are all you think about, then you start thinking about those little issues, the stuff that any couple will tell you, “You know, I can ignore this. I don't think about this.” But then you think about big things and it's like, “Oh, he does this,” and just [makes grunting noises]. JM: Definitely a common thing that couples of any sexuality will experience. Did you feel like your sexuality brought any uniqueness to any of those situations, though? TB: Probably no, just because I knew from the get-go when Chad and I got together we had kind of a Lady and the Tramp kind of thing going on. He grew up in a very small town, single mother, five kids, and she's working two jobs. He got hand-me-downs from the church; he was kind of poked at for being a huskier guy and being gay. Coming out in a small town is insanely hard. I had two parents that were pretty supportive and, like, I got iPods for Christmas. Like I said, we had very much a Lady and the Tramp kind of thing. Whenever, let's say, for example, it's our day off and I'm like, “Okay, let's clean the house.” He’s like, “Why? It's our day off. Let's relax.” “Well, no, we need to clean the house.” “But we don't have anybody coming over.” “But we need to take pride in our house,” and just stupid shit like that that we have finally come to a common ground on. JM: This is a very interesting insight about just the different upbringings and how that affected the relationship. [To Grant] Any questions about anything we've covered so far? GU: No, I think you've pretty much nailed it. 32 JM: Cool. So after the incident of cheating, you said that you came to terms. Do things go generally better after that? TB: Yes. Things were pretty good. I was wrapping up school; I had started a new career at Best Buy. I had finally left Target and I think things were still just kind of strenuous with us. It was probably almost a year after the incident, and I don't want to say that it was the events of everything, because every time that we've separated it's been on me and I own up to that. I said, “I don't want to do this anymore. I can't.” He finally moved out. I basically have the apartment to myself for a good month and it really put into perspective how I am as a person and how I act. He and I basically got a kick in the ass from my dad because at the time he and my mom had been together for like 30 years. He told us, “Okay, I understand that times can be tough, but that doesn't mean you quit. Is what's going on really worth your relationship?” So we talked about it again, and I also want to say that we went to therapy at that point and we talked it through yet again. Basically, we boiled everything down to like, “Okay, can you live with this?” “Yes.” “Can you live with that?” “Yes.” “What is it about me or what I'm doing that you can’t stand?” “I don't like this. I don't like that.” It's not a matter of I'm asking you to change, I'm just asking you to adapt to where I am comfortable with this, and I'm not constantly just fucking thinking about it all the time. JM: Okay, so this relationship therapy helps bring everything in on the relationship and set off some path to be a little more consistent, it sounds like. 33 TB: Yes, and we also came to the conclusion that because we're both very stubborn, “Okay, I feel like I shouldn't have to change, and I've done everything for you. But you've done nothing for me.” But the other felt like he has done the exact same thing. Like when we met, I was a smoker, and he'll never say he didn't like it. It's just a matter of, “Oh it smells. I don't want to make out with you. I can taste it on your breath. Could you please not smoke out on the balcony? I don't like that smoke everywhere.” He's not saying ‘I want you to quit’ directly, whereas I grew up in a household where it's very direct, so I quit smoking for him. Then, when we would have disagreements, it's like, “Well, I quit smoking for you.” “Well, I didn't ask you to quit smoking for me.” “Yes, you did.” “No, you didn't.” Just stupid shit like that put into perspective, “Okay, we are healthy and strong and fine. We just need to find a way to communicate better.” JM: Yeah, it's a good concern. We're kind of on this topic of therapy, and you mentioned that we should also address your depression during this session. I also don't want to leave college hanging where it's at. Is there one way if you'd rather take? TB: I'm cool with whatever direction is best for you guys. JM: Let's roll kind of chronologically then. Which one does depression kind of happen during? College, or is it after? TB: No, depression actually happened relatively recently, within the past year while I was on deployment. I graduated college about three years ago. JM: Okay. So we'll put a pin in depression and do that with your military career, which you've also mentioned. Let's kind of roll through college and what that experience gives you. So you're doing it online. You're not necessarily on a campus with a bunch of people. What are you kind of experiencing, though, as an online student? 34 TB: I realized that I didn't know shit about art because I think that's one of the big positives with college. You can be very enthusiastic about something, but it's something else to learn it entirely from somebody that's studied it and taught it for a very long time. Hell, even if they're fresh out of college themselves, you're hearing their knowledge and hopefully the passion in their voice that they have for teaching. JM: Yeah. So you enjoy college, it sounds like, generally. TB: I did, and it did kind of suck because even though I was only going part time, like I said, I'm an overachiever and I wasn't content with getting C's. I wanted A's, so instead of going to the bowling alley with friends, I chose to chill at our house and make sure that my pieces were perfect. JM: Okay. Do you have any standout professors, any really notable memories throughout that period of college? TB: Yes, there are two professors that forever changed my perspective on everything. One is Dr. Phyllis Stone. I'm sorry, I don't think I quite recall her name. I took her class pretty early in my college career, but she is the head of the Art History Department. When I took her course from the Bronze Age to the Renaissance Age, that's when I thought, “Holy crap, I don't want to actually make art, I want to study it.” Her and I had an excellent conversation about it and she basically inspired me to go further than just making pieces and occasionally watching a documentary. Basically, if you are this enthusiastic about art, it needs to be your life, and ever since then, I became what I've coined as an art junkie. There's never enough art. Then there was another professor that I had that I don't recall his name, unfortunately. Like I said, it's not their names that I remember, it's what they taught me. He was my intermediate anatomy professor. He basically gave me key pieces of advice when it came to creating my pieces. Plus, also with his discussion boards—not to toot my own horn here, but he gave me lots of praise because of my 35 ideals and the stuff that I had to say. A lot of students type in, “This is why I think blah, blah, blah,” and then go on. I wanted to go further than that, really talk about the subject at hand or whatever piece we were discussing. He learned all that he knew from Picasso, so to hear compliments from an apprentice of Picasso, it's such a high. Not to like go on and ego with this, but it's like, “Holy crap, if someone like that thinks highly of my opinion and my work, I think I just might have a shot here at making an impact in the art world.” JM: I think that's a fair conclusion from that description. GU: Yeah, absolutely. JM: I think Grant has a question for you. GU: I do. Just my own curiosity, and I'm trying to recall stuff from the previous meeting— so the Academy of Arts, are we still in Washington, or are we somewhere else? TB: The school is based out of San Francisco in California; when I started attending the academy, I was in Idaho. But by the time I graduated, we had already moved here to Utah shortly after—actually, literally the day after I graduated from Washington, my family moved to Idaho. GU: Okay. In my head, I thought we were still in Washington. TB: I'm so sorry. GU: No, that's why now I'm glad I asked this question. So as soon as you graduated, you said you guys moved up to Idaho? TB: Yes. GU: And then moved in with your husband and started school while you were still in Idaho and by the end, you both had moved down here to Utah? Now we know how we got to Utah. Cool. That was my only question. JM: You mentioned that your professor thought you had a very interesting and unique outlooks on this study of art. Do you feel like that queer perspective of study was 36 anything new? Because that's something that a lot of queer people will mention as they're studying various topics. Well, that could be because they're gay, not, “Oh, we are just best friends.” Did you have any moments like that where your queerness kind of came into play and cultivated those unique perspectives? TB: Oh, hell yeah. During my art history course, the Bronze Age to the Renaissance Age, we of course touched on the Greek and the Roman period with sculptures where the mentality was if you looked good, you were good. Long before that, I denounced the idea because I essentially came out twice, as I put it. I came out as a gay man and I came out admitting that I love bears. So my point is it definitely did play in that because during that time a lot of focus was on the male nude. Unfortunately, women were still very much in oppression—stay at home, cook, clean, all that jazz—so a lot of the attention was on males. Naturally, I was all for it when we got to sketch and paint the male models. JM: Awesome. Grant, you have a follow-up? GU: Yeah, just to follow up on the whole moving part. I don't know why I'm so curious about this. JM: Go and roll it in. GU: So 18 was when you moved to Idaho? TB: Correct. GU: When did you and Chad move to Utah? You said it was during those six years, but roughly what year? TB: It had to have been 2014, so I was about 24, 25 around that time. GU: Okay, I'm done now. Hopefully. JM: I'm trying to think of a train of thought now. GU: I'm sorry. I fully broke it. I try not to. 37 JM: So generally, you enjoy your college experience. You always have good professors. You start wrapping up. You said you got your associate’s in 2016. TB: I got it actually in 2019. JM: 2019. Okay, I did my math totally wrong then. TB: You're totally fine. 2016 is when Chad and I were at our worst. Coincidentally, the infidelity happened in San Francisco when I went to college for not really a semester, but it was kind of like camp. It was their way to bring students onto their campus so they could get more money. But for $400, I basically got to stay in the heart of downtown San Francisco for a week and a half during Pride Week. JM: Oh, okay. That sounds great. TB: Yes, and like I said, it was beautiful and wonderful and amazing. But given what was going on with Chad and I at the time, it was like putting a fat kid in a candy store and the fat kid is on a diet. JM: Okay, so how many times do you go out to San Francisco? TB: I'm going to be blunt. I don't like San Francisco. It's a dirty city and the people suck and it's overpriced. JM: Fair enough. TB: But in total, I've been there about like three times. I love that there's so much shit to do. The food's delicious, there's art everywhere. I do love the fact that essentially, our history really blossomed there. I should also mention back in 2012, 13, somewhere around there when I started working at Target, I met an old friend who introduced me to a big group of gay men. In Boise, basically once a month, we would all get together, have lunch and just catch up, shoot the shit. I met what I call veterans, basically people that were in the fight back in the ‘70s fighting for gay rights. The ones that threw the first stone at Stonewall, the ones that were there at 38 the protest, the ones really involved in politics. They're the ones who opened up my eyes that there's more to the gay culture than just the AIDS epidemic and today. JM: That's very inspirational, great to be in and to meet those people. That's part of what the project's about, to try and get those histories of those people who were there and pushing the movement along and to get us rights and everything. So when you go to San Francisco, you're aware of that history already? TB: Yeah, and unfortunately, it's one of the reasons why I'm not a fan of San Francisco. Because like I said, when I went there in 2016 for school and it's Pride, it's like, yeah, there's going to be rainbows everywhere. Everyone's hugging, everyone's loving, and it just wasn't the case. If everybody's drunk, everybody is falling over each other, everybody's humping, everyone thinks they are so much hotter than everybody. I went to the Queer Culture Museum. I was the only one in the entire place. Now could have just been the timing, it just could be my personality, I don't know, but it was incredible to see. Original Harvey Milk pins that people had put under their pillows, t-shirts, photographs, and postcards and letters from World War One veterans proclaiming their love for another soldier. Or an airman who was a pilot and then would turn around and come home and be a drag queen. It's stuff like that that reminds me of where we came from and how far we've come. That's one of the reasons why I was so happy I got to experience that privately. JM: Yeah, sounds very touching. Honestly, I wish I could experience it for myself. I'll have to make a trip out there one day when I'm not a broke college student anymore. Technically, I'm not even a college student anymore, but… GU: We're just broke. JM: So, let's roll into this group of gay men you're meeting in Boise. How do you get introduced? How does that whole process go of actually meeting them? 39 TB: Like I said, I was working at Target. There was a gentleman there named Patrick who was one of the supervisors. He and I just got to talking. Turns out he's gay as well. I told him about Chad. He was like, “Oh, I'm part of this potluck that we do once a month and you guys got to come.” I sent Dave, the man that was in charge of everything, my email. He said, “Okay, welcome to the group. This is what we do, this is what we're about. Everybody knows one another, everybody's done one another.” Basically, that's what it is, once a month: “Okay, here is the address. These people will bring these, these people will bring these items, this couple is going to host, this couple is going to host next month.” Basically, an itinerary of what's coming and what's going and all that jazz. Then we would just show up and meet people. Some at that time were in their 60s and 70s who lived through so much. Some that very much were not part of the fight, and they were adamant about that, but said that they love that younger people like Chad and I were coming in, talking, getting to know them. Everybody was very welcoming and loving, and some of them are still very good friends to this day. JM: Okay, you mentioned it's kind of you got a monthly location that happens. What areas does it encompass? Is it just kind of Boise? TB: Predominantly in Boise. I don't know how familiar you are with Idaho geographically. Some would be in Eagles; some would be in Garden City. The majority was in Boise, and if some of us wanted to just go out and do our own thing, that's cool too. Got introduced to the Balcony, which is one of the gay clubs up there. Another one is the Lucky Dog, which to this day is still my all-time favorite bar. Mostly just because it isn't a pickup scene, it's a bar with pinballs and a karaoke stage and an outside patio for smoking. That's it, there's no back room, there's no glory holes. 40 There's none of that crap. Come in, have some drinks, be around your queer peers, and just have a good time. JM: Okay, and how long do you stay with this group? You mentioned you met them 2012/2013. How long do you stay part of it? Are you still part of it? TB: I'm unfortunately not. When we moved up here to Utah, naturally we kind of lost touch. It happens. Plus, also one of our dear friends passed away, so I think that was kind of the domino effect. I mean, like I said, a lot of them were in their 60s and 70s so like, okay, someone passed on. We're all kind of getting older. That's the last we spoke. They're all still friends, they just don't all gather together once a month. Keep in contact with a few of them on Facebook here and there. We tried ourselves to put something together up here—or down here, I should say. The gay community just wasn't as welcoming, unfortunately. It wasn't a, “Yes, you are my queer peer. Come to Mama. Let's hug it out and have fun.” It's very much “I either want to do you… Okay, you don't want to do me? Then fuck you,” and then walk away. JM: So it sounds like we are kind of culminating to the end of college, moving to Utah and leaving this group. Are there any other stories that we missed during that period of time that you'd like to hit on? TB: No, not really. Our lives changed drastically once we moved here to Utah because Chad wasn't happy with where he was at, at Best Buy. I unfortunately was working part-time at Target and I was that associate calling the admin office daily, "Do you have any hours." I was always the number one person on call, so I essentially did have a full-time but I hated that repetitiveness. Once we got up here, I got offered a supervisor spot. I took it. We tried to get into a house; unfortunately things fell through, and that's kind of where we tied in. Well, where you and I tie in with our timeline with finishing up college, the downfall, and then the upbringing of our relationship again. 41 JM: Okay, so what happens after that? Where's a good place to start? What do you do when you move to Utah, and are able to get a house and what happens? TB: Unfortunately, we weren't able to get into a house and then for… [To Chad, offscreen] what was it, babe, five years? About five years we unfortunately just kept hitting all of these stumbles. I was at Target in my supervisor spot for a year. I got let go. “Fuck, okay, we're just going to try again.” That's when I got on to Best Buy, got a good year with them. Finally get the ball rolling with the house. Okay, “Unfortunately, you don't make enough, but if you have a good down payment…” So we're scrimping and saving, doing everything we can to get savings built up. Unfortunately, Chad left Best Buy as well. “Fuck, okay, we got to start over yet again.” He lands a job at UTA. I loved working at Best Buy. Unfortunately, when you do security, it's very hard to promote, especially when you're the only one that's actually passionate about that department and you can't get any support from management. You're essentially by yourself, and the second you ask for something, suddenly you're not a team player like you've been there. Then I stumbled upon Amazon and I was able to stay on at both Amazon and Best Buy for a few months and we managed to land our su casa. JM: There you go. What time period are we in now? When is the start of Amazon? TB: In 2019. That is actually the time when I'm getting ready to go to basic. I get ready to go to basic in September of 2019. That's also the time that we actually find our house and I start working at Amazon full-time because at the time I was known as a temporary employee, and then I got put on as a permanent employee. There was a lot happening at that time. JM: Okay. I am going to roll us back just really quick. I had on my notes of things to ask you between those two points. The national gay marriage fight happens in 2015. Do 42 you have any recall of that? You've been kind of inactive in queer spaces. Are you doing any protests or anything like that? What's that look like for you? TB: I had actually already proposed to Chad three times. Twice he said no. This was back in Idaho. The first time he just outright said no, just no. Okay, carry on about the day. The second time he said, “I do love you. I just feel like now isn't a good time because I want it to be legal for everybody,” because it was legal in Idaho. He just didn't want to get married right then and there. So we started looking at rings, talking, calling each other fiancé, basically trying out being married. Without his knowledge, I took one of his rings that he wore, got it sized and found a ring that I knew he loved. I had to get a loan from my father, pay him back and everything, and basically I just came into the apartment we were at and slipped it on his finger while he was sleeping, got down on one knee and said, “Well?” He finally said yes. This was back in 2013. But fast forward to when gay marriage got legalized across the states. That's when we finally went to the courthouse and got married because even though I put the ring on and he gave me my ring, we had very much a private moment of being married. We didn't do vows, we didn't get dressed up, none of that. We just said ‘I do’ right then and there in 2015, when it finally got legalized across the U.S. We had what I call a ‘ghetto wedding’. We got dressed up and went down to the courthouse because he was working at Best Buy and I was working at Target. We couldn't afford a wedding. We had both of our sisters there sign on the dotted line and for our honeymoon, we went to Red Robin and went shopping at Macy's. JM: Sounds like a great way to me. I'm not one for pomp and circumstance. TB: To circle back to what you said about being involved—I would talk with the LGBT Center about like, what can we do? Unfortunately, at the time, they said, “You know, we're actually pretty set right now. We could always use volunteers here.” 43 “Okay, hey, we'll look more into that.” Talk to our friends and family about it. As far as fighting the good fight, unfortunately we weren’t a part of that. JM: Well, everyone does it in their own way. Being queer is in itself sometimes a battle. So that's kind of how the gay marriage goes. I did have a note as well. I didn't know if you had any memories of the Pulse shooting in 2016 that you wanted to share. TB: It broke my heart just because you think we're past it, that unfortunately, yes, there is going to be a bashing here and there, but you don't think you're going to turn on the news and hear about an enclosed area where people come to gather to have fun aren't going to leave. You just don't think about stuff like that. It just broke my heart that had happened and still is happening, especially with what happened at Club Q out in Denver. JM: Yeah, definitely. I wrote that question. I think our interview was the day before the Club Q shooting, if I remember correctly, and I went, “Well, that's going to be unfortunately relevant next interview.” Did you talk with any members of the community after the Pulse shooting? Did you have your group of friends and talk about it? TB: That happened when we were here in Utah. We did talk with a couple of our gay friends and just talk about, you know, it's sad, it happens. Basically, it went into political talk as opposed to, what can we actually do? It did ignite me to get a little defensive when people aren't as sensitive to the subject. Because going back to when I went to San Francisco for school, there of course was a giant memorial for the victims. One of the gals I was with decided to do a Facebook livestream and just talk about her day in front of the memorial. I'd like to think of myself as a pretty calm person, but I think that was the closest I ever got to assaulting somebody. This isn't a time for you to advertise, this isn't a time for streaming, this is a fucking quiet moment. People died, have a little fucking respect. It still sets me off a little bit. 44 JM: Understandably so. You mentioned that it encouraged you to get a little defensive. I don't know if I'm taking that literally, but we're going to roll into you entering basic training. Did that play into why you go into the military at all? TB: Not necessarily. I mean, my being queer did have its own forms of blockage because I tried to go into the military way back when I was like 17, 18. Unfortunately, given my ADD, my motor skills aren't 100%, so math and reading and writing, you might as well speak to me in Spanish. “I don't know what the fuck you talking about, man.” So I tried and tried, I think, from the time I was 17 to the time I was 22; I attempted the test like six times and I tried it in my own way to study. Unfortunately, it just didn't work, so I just swallowed and accepted, “Okay, this isn't meant to be.” The last time I felt very defeated because I went in and I tried to talk to a recruiter, and I'm not going to say it was because of my being gay that he was essentially being a dick, but he was just very short answers. “No. Uh-huh. Yeah. Your hair's not in regulation.” “I can cut it.” “Well, it's really tough, you know.” “I guess I'm aware of that. That's one of the reasons I want to join.” These two football-looking guys walked in, and he just lit up like a Christmas tree. So it's like, okay, I can't prove anything, but it's kind of one of those voice within things that are just nagging you like, “Okay, I'm pretty sure we both know what's really going on here.” JM: So let's say you do finally start basic training in 2019. Did you take the test and pass it? TB: Yes, in April of 2019. I was looking for a different job. I was still at Best Buy at the time, but I just kind of hit that blockade of, “Okay, I've been here for years. I'm not going anywhere. I fucking hate everybody nothing's going to happen. I need to find 45 a different avenue.” So I found an application online for a police officer. I thought maybe that would be an introduction into the police academy or something. Filled it out, send it over, and that's when my army recruiter got a hold of me. At the time, I was going on 30, and my understanding was once you hit 27, you've aged out. You're no longer able to get into the military, you're considered too old. So he was like, “Not with the Army. You can be 35 and join.” “Well, I can't really pass the ASVAB.” “Come on in, we'll see how you’re doing. We will go from there.” “Okay.” He said, “You actually did pretty good,” so he directed me to a site that basically changed everything. Once I came back in after studying through the site, he said I qualified to be an engineer. So long story short, there from April all the way up until September when I finally signed on the dotted line was very much, “Okay, I need to get this document.” “No, you need to get this document.” “Okay.” “You need to get the tattoo on the back of your neck lasered off.” “Fuck, is that good yet?” “No, not yet.” Chad and I are doing okay right now, but we need to get some time to talk to each other. “All right, do what you got to do,” this, that and the other. Finally, after everything, I signed my contract in December of 2019, and then I went to basic in the very beginning of February 2020. JM: What an interesting time to start. We'll get there in half a second. I do want to ask, though, as you mentioned you and Chad have to take some time to talk. Was he supportive of you going to basic? Was that part of the conversation? 46 TB: Very much so. He's always been my cheerleader, even when we've had our fair share of rough times. He's just always been there for me. He's always been a person that says, “Yes, you can do it. We'll find a way.” “Man, I would love to go to Italy someday.” “Let's do it, let's find a way. Let's get you there.” He's just one of those people that's so positive and an optimist all the time. You're constantly questioning, “Dude, you cannot fucking be real.” Mr. Rogers would say, “Dude. Dial it back.” JM: So Chad is supportive of it. Is your family supportive as well? TB: Yes. As you probably recall, my dad was in the Air Force. By this point he's very much retired. My mom's all for it; my sister was a little apprehensive about it just because she has this weird theory, basically, that my parents love me more than her. As I mentioned, my parents are very much traditional Republican, Catholic, all that crap. Their mentality is, “Well, we have an idea and a plan for you, so you need to stay that course, and when you venture out of that course, we just don't know what to say.” She misconstrued that as, “Well, you don't love me. You don't support me.” It's like, “No, Sissy.” I call her Sissy. Her name is Maddie. “It's not that they don't love us, they just don't know how to communicate their support,” because to them, that's just weird. JM: Okay, so she's apprehensive. Does she support it now? Has she been supportive after? TB: She is. She believes that I joined because I quote, “I am having a quarter-life crisis.” She doesn't quite remember that I've always wanted to do this and so it's just a matter of I finally am able to. Now she's supportive. She's one of those people where she'll beat a dead horse, but when she realizes that the horse isn't fucking 47 moving, “Okay, time to switch gears and I'll support you the best I can.” Takes the long road, but she gets there. JM: I don't know how you're feeling. We topped out around an hour and a half last time. This feels like a good stopping point. If we want to try and do another one or if you want to plow through, we can do that either way. TB: I'm cool to plow through because now it's been about like three years ago, and there's been a couple of things, but nothing huge. JM: Well, let's roll on through it then. So you start training in February of 2020. A lot is about to change. TB: Oh, yeah. JM: Take it from there, what happens? TB: I went to basic; I went to A.I.T. and I was a little nervous at first because it is a very hetero environment and not, “This is hot.” Kind of very much guys are farting left and right and they're talking about girls and you're just sitting there replaying a Britney Spears mix tape in your head. JM: So Top Gun lied to us? TB: Yes, hardcore. Luckily, however, I found my group, my tribe within a tribe that were cool, because I remember I was lying on my bed just kind of dozing off just trying to pass the fucking time. They were talking about something and then they made a gay joke like, “Don't be such a fag.” I don't know if it's because I saw people doing the wrong thing, I was tired or what the case may be, but I just snapped. I got in their faces. I screamed and yelled, “You do not talk about people like that. You do not talk about your fellow Americans like that. You are an embarrassment to the uniform.” I just went off, and the Drill Sergeant that was in charge of us got wind of it and she came and talked to me. She was like, “What happened? Okay, I need names.” 48 “I don't recall names.” I did recall their names, I just didn't want to rock the boat. It's just like this happened. It sucks, it's stupid, whatever. I think that group respected the fact that I could stand up for myself and tell them, “No guys, you're not going to talk like this,” but I didn't rat them out. After that, we all became pretty good friends and actually, turns out there was another gay guy in our unit, Munchenberg. He and I are still really good friends. It was nice knowing, “Okay, there's another queer bear. Come on, get over here. You and I are sticking together.” The exact same thing happened when I went to A.I.T. I met two guys that ended up becoming great friends that I'm still in contact with, spread out throughout the world right now. But we all keep in contact; we all promise we're going to be in each other's big wedding someday. Obviously during that time, the pandemic and the riots happened. When the initial—I don't know how to phrase this—boom of the pandemic happened, it just caught us off guard because we're basically in a secluded building and the only time we come out is for training. We're just hearing about it, like little whispers here and there from the Drill Sergeants writing letters. Stuff like that. But then bam, and everyone's like, “You are all wearing a mask, 24/7. Twenty-four feet apart, the beds. During your downtime, you are doing nothing but cleaning, and if you are not cleaning you are doing push-ups.” It just kind of threw me for a loop and it would be another like month, month and a half before I had access to my cell phone again. I had no idea what the fuck was going on. “Is this for real? What's going on here?” So once I finally did get my phone back, Chad and my parents told me, “This is what's happening, this is what's going on.” Holy shit. JM: From the outside, I know it was confusing. I can't imagine on the inside piecing things going on. There's no way that this is happening. 49 GU: Well, I mean, everyone really thought, “Oh, two weeks, maybe a month. Everyone is secluded. We'll be fine.” TB: Yeah. No shit. JM: Kind of a jarring experience. You get your phone back and you're still in basic? TB: I'm able to have my phone once per phase. When you're in basic, you go through three different phases. There's red phase, white phase, and then blue phase. Red phase is three weeks, white phase is three weeks, blue phase is three weeks, and at the end of those weeks, as a treat, we get our cell phone. The company we are with is very much by-the-book. “We're going to do things correctly because of what's going on and we want you to be able to communicate with your loved ones and make sure everybody is okay.” Then once I got to A.I.T., which was another nine weeks, I got to have my cell phone all the time. That's where I met my two good friends, Shoulders and Lopez, and that's when the riots started happening. I went to Basic and A.I.T. in Fort Jackson, South Carolina, and if you know anything about that place, you'll know it fucking sucks. JM: Yeah. I've had families going to South Carolina and they have mixed opinions of it, specifically of that area. TB: To be fair, I give them the benefit of the doubt. Okay, we're all trainees, we're in basic. You're not supposed to coddle us or anything. But the locals I interacted with, they were just so rude as hell. It was hot as fuck all the time, and I'm like, “No, this is not a place for me. No, thanks.” Because of where we were at, the majority population was Black and we had a couple of sergeants who—again, I don't want to point the finger or blame or anything, but they were unnecessarily aggressive. Not physically, but very verbally. They would just walk up and just start yelling at us for no reason. We would be doing exactly what they're doing, just start yelling at us. But only the white people, whereas the Latinos and the Latinas and the Black 50 soldiers, they left them alone; they actually started conversations with them. But what are you going to do? You're a little old private and then there's a Staff Sergeant screaming at you because your posture is bad. “Really? That guy over there is on his cell phone, and you're going to yell at me because my back isn't straight?” JM: So there was a lot of tension even on base during this time? TB: Very much so. JM: Okay. You're in A.I.T. still during this time. I assume this is during the summer? TB: This is the spring transitioning into the summer because I finally left for Jackson in June. JM: June, okay. First, is there anything else that happened at Fort Jackson you want to cover? If not, where did you go from there? TB: I finally got to come back home. Chad and I were happy to have the house of our dreams; I went back to Amazon. Obviously, things were a little different and basically life is great for about a good year and a half because okay, I'm in the Army part time. During that time, I got to go to California for advanced training and that was amazing because we would get up, go to school for like three or four hours. “Okay, you guys are dismissed for the day,” and we got a hotel and our food was paid for. I got to go to Huntington Beach all the time in July. I got to go to Africa. It was just incredible. Life was good; Chad and I had never been stronger. Life was grand. Then my unit got word that we were going on a yearlong deployment. JM: Okay, so this is in ‘21? TB: Yeah, the end of ‘21, transitioning into ‘22. JM: Okay. Did you just return from deployment recently? TB: Yeah, I got back to the States about two months ago, two and a half months ago. 51 JM: Okay. I was unaware it was that recent. You get word you're going to have a yearlong deployment. I also know that the depression is going to kick off during this period. Why don't you just start telling us about the start of deployment and we'll ask questions if we have any? TB: Like I mentioned, one of the great things that I love about Chad is that he is insanely supportive. His father was in the military, even though Chad himself wasn't raised in the military. He was/is aware of military life, that I could be gone for three, five months at a time, finally get back and get word less than an hour later, “Hey guys, in 24 hours, we need to go again.” Stuff like that is insanely rare, but he was aware that it could happen. But he also said that, “We have been through so much already. We can get through this.” He essentially gave me his blessing and we got started. So I got my shots, got physical, made sure all my equipment was packed, all of my e-learning certificates done. I had to do basically a driver's test for Europe, which was not fun because that is a 12-hour class and if you do not pass on the second attempt, you need to take the class over again. So yeah, that wasn't fun. Obviously, there was a lot of sadness in the air the last night that I was in town, but we did our best to just have fun, like, “Let's not talk about it. Let's not think about it. Let's just go and be a couple.” We went to an art gallery. We went and had dinner. We splurged and stayed at the Grand America downtown. We basically just had the ultimate date night. The first few months are trippy because do either of you have experience traveling outside of the U.S.? JM: Minimal. Canada. GU: I've only been to the Caribbean. 52 TB: It feels off. You know you're in a different place, but it's like, “Oh, there's trees and there's sand. Then there's this, that and the other, just like we do back home, but I'm literally on a different part of the globe.” That part took some getting used to. It was kind of saddening because we left towards the end of October and I think the second week we were in Texas—because you have to go through a pre-MOB and a DEMOB process in Texas where, “Okay, let's make sure we have absolutely everything before we finally send you to the country.” My grandfather passed away, and unfortunately that didn't qualify for bereavement, so I essentially had to suck it up. Then once we actually did get to Poland, I had to spend Thanksgiving and Christmas away from my family. I had never done that before, ever. It was kind of saddening just because Poland is a beautiful country, but there's always gray skies, there's always snow on the ground, you don't speak the language. Basically, the only thing to do where we were stationed is drink. That's literally the only thing to do within a 25-mile radius. I did my best to seek out help from the chaplain. The way a military chaplain is supposed to work is, quote unquote, like a free therapist. “Okay you're having a hard time, talk it out. Let's talk this through. Everything's okay, X, Y, Z.” I reached out to the one that was on post and he was basically a Christian redneck who tried to bring religion into the talks. He had the audacity to ask me how my relationship with my father is. I basically had the winter blues, but it wasn't terrible. Like, “Okay, this sucks. This is sad, but I'm strong. I can do this. I can get through this.” Endured that until February of ‘22, and then I get word that I was being transferred to a new location. They said, “Everybody needs to raise morality and Bock, you just drew the short straw.” I didn't want to leave. I had my own room, the food was delicious, the gym there was excellent. I had a really good routine going on. So I went to Latvia. Do you know where Latvia is at? 53 JM: I do. TB: Okay. Most of the time when I bring it up, everybody is like, “What the fuck is Latvia?” So I get there and I'm partnered up with one of my good friends and it fucking sucked because I was raised in a pretty cultural environment where, “Guys, we're in Paris. Let's go see the Louvre. Let's go see the Eiffel Tower. Guys, we're in Alaska. Let's go see Santa Claus's house. Let's go play in the snow.” Unfortunately, the two that I was stuck with, my battle buddy and my supervisor, all they wanted to do was stay in their rooms and just play video games. The only time I could ever get them to go out, actually leave that fucking room was to go get food, and it was to locations they had been before. “Guys, let's try somewhere new.” “No, no, no. What if the food sucks?” “That's how you know if you like it or not.” “Well, you can do it.” “Okay, give me the car.” “You can't drive here. I'm the supervisor.” Basically, for seven months. I was restricted to a small room with a battle buddy who did nothing but play video games into the wee hour, complaining about his wife and then turned around and said he missed his wife. Said how much he hated the Army, and everybody else on post didn't speak English. JM: It's just a very isolating period, it sounds like. TB: It was. By the grace of Buddha, the Universe, whatever the hell you believe in—in April, Chad was able to come over. JM: Oh, so Chad actually came to Latvia? TB: Yes. Getting all that figured out however was not fun though because at the time when we were putting his trip together, I was still in Poland. We were going to go to 54 Warsaw, which is the capital, and it's actually one of the larger cities in Europe. But then I went to Latvia. “I want to go to Warsaw.” “Well, you can't leave the country.” “Okay, fine.” So we made the best of it. My supervisor was miraculously pretty cool and understanding, he let me stay with Chad for a week, even though my pass was only for four days. “Go spend time with your husband. Have fun.” For like, three and a half days, we just walked; we just explored Riga, the capital of Latvia. We just went and saw and did some other stuff. It did help that it kind of recharged my batteries. We got to celebrate our 12-year anniversary during that time. JM: Okay. Chad comes out for a week; you celebrate your anniversary together. That's still April. You still have six-ish months. TB: Yeah, give or take, still about six months. No disrespect to my command team, unfortunately, because our First Sergeant is an overachiever and is very much, “Sure, they can do it. Yeah, they can do it. Figure it out.” She put at the time a Second Lieutenant in charge, when that position is supposed to be for a Captain, somebody who's done a deployment before and knows what the hell they're doing. She was very much just rolling with the punches, doing what she could. We were supposed to return back to the States in August. We didn't officially leave our posts until the end of August. But the main question that you touched on—depression hit, because it was so close and yet so far. Like I said, I was pretty much just stuck in that room all day, every day with a very negative person. My supervisor, all he wanted to do was play video games and drink. I came to find out that I got moved to that location to be with my battle buddy because everybody else in the group in Poland wasn't a fan of me 55 because I wanted to go see castles and paintings and everybody else wanted to go to bars. When we were essentially doing the hand-off, I got shitfaced and lost my shit and basically lost my voice for a second because I was yelling so much. It is not my proudest of moments. But I was raised to do the right thing. I was always told to do the right thing, even when nobody's doing the right thing. The kicker of everything, basically the thing that made me snap, was it was my birthday and I didn't get anything. I didn't get an acknowledgement. I didn't get a happy birthday, no presents, nothing. It was just another day. When we went to do the handoff, there was another soldier there who had been in less time than me and just in the timeframe that we had been there from the time that we arrived in Poland to August, he had gotten blackout, shitfaced, drunk five times. Slept a night in the female rooms, which he is very much not allowed to do, and they gave him a fucking award because he was working so hard. Yet I literally got yelled at by my Sergeant because my backpack was out of regulation. You know in anime shows where everything goes into black and white and reverse? GU: Yes. JM: Grant does, I can't say I do. TB: That's basically what happened for me. It just shattered. Unfortunately, because I drank so much, there are a few blackout periods. According to my friends, I basically told my supervisor, “Fuck you, you're an embarrassment to the Army.” I confessed to one of my battle buddies that I had a crush on him. I told the battle buddy that I was roommating with that he is a whiny little bitch and that he needs to get the fuck over it. Again, allegedly, it was not a pretty period, but it happened. It is what it is. I made peace with everybody, thankfully. Nobody is holding any grudges against me or anything. But after that, I was basically disillusioned. “Okay, is this something that I actually want, or is this something that I was just told I wanted?” 56 So that happened, and we finally get word we are going back home in September. We are in Texas going through this that and the other. October finally arrives and I am back home. I still remember I came through the doors of the airport, Chad was just tying his shoe, he looked up and he and I literally ran to one another. I'm not exactly a sensitive individual, but I did get a little misty-eyed and so did he. It was just the perfect welcoming home because it was just us. JM: Sounds very touching. That's October, just recently. Did you ever come up to a conclusion on whether or not you were in the Army because you wanted to be or because you were told you were? TB: Honestly, I still don't know. I am trying to seek out a therapist right now because I don't want to just find somebody in the Yellow Pages. I want somebody that understands military mentality. I don't want to say that I have PTSD, but again, on paper, I was stuck in a small room with a very negative person and all they did was complain for seven months. The only time I was able to get away from that was to just go for a walk, because it was such a small base. There was literally nothing around. There was literally barracks where you slept and the buildings where we worked. That was it. There was no cafeteria, there was no little shopping center, restaurants, nothing. You were not allowed off-post without a buddy, and like I said, they never wanted to go anywhere. JM: Well, I do wish you luck in that. GU: If there’s any experiences close to this, feel free to hit us up if there's more. TB: I am working with our actual unit commander, not the one that was in charge of the deployment. She wants to see how I would do with an officer position, but that obviously requires a little more training on my end. There's a part of me that feels like, “Okay, do you really want me in that spot or do you want it so you can say you got somebody into an officer spot?” Given what happened with the deployment, I 57 have a lot of trust issues now. Unfortunately, it is what it is. To answer your question, man, military-wise, there haven't really been any experiences since I got home. My job at Amazon, however, I got a massive raise and I got promoted. Yay me. GU: That's awesome. TB: Yes, yes, it is. JM: We were going to run up to current life, but I think Grant also meant if there was anything you know in the coming years, if you ever want to say… GU: Yeah. JM: “I have more of this to share that I think would be helpful to the community.” We do have that question written whether you'd like to be re-interviewed in the future. TB: Most definitely. Chad and I are in the process of fostering with the intention to adopt. GU: Oh, that's awesome. TB: We're still going through the application process, filling it out, getting all of our crap submitted and all that stuff. Definitely do want to revisit it because as supportive as my parents have been with Chad and I, they've always been wary of us having kids just because my dad believes that we just can't afford it, which is insanely arrogant of him. My mom is all for it, I just don't think she quite understands that it's not the same for a hetero couple. It's not only very hard for an LGBT couple, but it's even harder for a gay couple in a red state. GU: 100%. JM: We again wish you luck in that. It sounds like we are kind of reaching the end of it, so I do have some just kind of wrap-up questions that we do at the end. But are there any other stories that you'd like to share from your life that you can think of? 58 TB: Not necessarily a story, but if I may offer my two cents of wisdom to the younger generation that may see this. JM: That's one of the questions we ask, if you have any advice to give to your younger self or younger members of the community, so why don't you go ahead and take that one for us? TB: If I could give something to my younger self, it would be that you're going to be okay. Everything is going to be okay. It sucks right now, it may hurt, because we're taught to live in the moment and part of living in the moment means feeling that pain. But that pain is what makes us human, and thus that's what makes us stronger, beautiful people. To the younger community, as cliché as this may sound, you're not alone. We may not always choose our family, or the family chooses us, but you can choose to be happy. You can distance yourself from negative people that you know are negative. You can come out in your own special way. It's okay to be weird. JM: Very nice words. I hope that they speak to the people who will read this as much as even they've spoken to Grant and I. Honestly, that was just such a good note to end on, I feel like. GU: I like that. JM: We can ask you about your queer icons, if you'd like, or if you want to leave on that note. TB: Obviously, everybody knows—well, most people in the gay community know Harvey Milk. But I would encourage everybody to also look into Dr. Evelyn Hooker. She was the first scientist to debunk the myth that homosexuality is a mental issue. I would encourage everyone to not see celebrities so much as news, or so much as icons, because they are people just like us; they make mistakes, and emulating a complete stranger that essentially just entertains... Yes, they are bringing you and a 59 lot of people joy. That is not a justification to follow them in terms of how you should lead your life. JM: It's a very nuanced answer. I appreciate it. TB: I absolutely love Chuck Palahniuk. He's an author who just happens to be gay. He wrote Fight Club; he wrote Invisible Monsters, Choke. He is absolutely incredible. I would highly, highly recommend him. As far as queer painters, Francis Bacon was very out there, but he is the first one and that comes to mind. JM: There's your answer for your favorite queer painter. TB: Yes, very much so. I'm sure there are many more out there, but I think that's where this interview comes in. It's up to us to seek them out. The three of us wouldn't have known each other unless you posted something and I saw rainbow, essentially something shiny, and thought, “They're my peers. Let's see what's going on.” JM: Well, thank you so much for being willing to participate in this interview. GU: Yes. Thank you, Tyler. TB: My pleasure. JM: Unless you have anything else you'd like to share, I'm going to stop the recording. TB: To quote Ellen DeGeneres, “Always live with kindness, man.” JM: There you go. I think that's a good note to end on. 60