Community Oral History Zisumbo Sisters Interviewed by Alyssa Kammerman 23 September 2023 RootsBridge LLC Mission Statement RootsBridge cultivates connection in communities and families through the transformative power of storytelling. Our mission is to compassionately record life histories, honor unique experiences and promote empathy through shared narratives. By encouraging individuals to step into another's shoes, we cultivate deeper bonds between storyteller and hearer. In the communities we serve, we foster a sense of unity and compassion. We are driven by our passion for providing a platform for marginalized voices to ensure that every story is heard and none are diminished. We believe in a community where everyone feels connected and finds a sense of belonging. Project Description The Union Station Centennial oral history project is a companion to the Museums at Union Station’s “Heart of Ogden” exhibit, which commemorates the 100-year anniversary of the opening of the current Union Station building on November 22, 1924. In honor of the centennial anniversary, Ogden City contracted with oral historian Alyssa Kammerman of RootsBridge LLC to collect fifteen oral histories from community members who shared memories associated with the Union Station in Ogden. The interviews encompass the 1930s to the present day, thus documenting the period when Union Station was actively functioning as a train station and its subsequent transformation into a museum and cultural center. Community members interviewed included former railroad employees, Union Station employees, residents of Ogden, city employees, and museum volunteers. The diverse range of interviewees reflects the diversity of Ogden and provides a comprehensive view of Union Station’s impact on the community as a cultural hub and a place of shared history. ~ Oral History Description ~ An oral history is the spoken account of historic events in one’s life from the unique and partial perspective of the narrator. It is a primary source and unique interpretation of one’s lived experience. Rights Management This work is the property of RootsBridge LLC and The Museums at Ogden Union Station. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching, and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text / as long as credit is given to RootsBridge LLC and Ogden Union Station. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Zisumbo Sisters, an oral history by Alyssa Kammerman (RootsBridge LLC), 23 September 2023, Centennial Oral History Project, Museums at Union Station, Ogden, UT. Oral History Interview September 23, 2023 Interviewer: Alyssa Kammerman Interviewees: Justina Zisumbo, Arlene Anderson, Alicia Zisumbo, Stella Tarwater, Marciella Glazier, Irma Zisumbo, Maria Nelson, and Hilda Brown Abstract: This is an Oral History Interview with the Zisumbo sisters, conducted September 23, 2023, for the 100 year anniversary of the Ogden Union Station. This interview was conducted at the Ogden Union Station by oral historian Alyssa Kammerman of RootsBridge LLC. During this interview, the sisters recall stories about their father, Concepción Zisumbo, and his work on the Southern Pacific Railroad as a track layer, lamp tender, and foreman. The sisters share the hardships of moving from Mexico and trying to find acceptance in America. They talk about the vibrant Hispanic/Latino community in Ogden and share memories of community social events. AK: Today is September 23, 2023. I am interviewing the Zisumbo sisters for the Ogden Union Station Centennial Exhibit project. We are talking about their father, Concepcion Zisumbo, who worked for the Southern Pacific Railroad. My name is Alyssa Kammerman, and I'll be conducting the interview. On the camera is Trenten Kammerman. Okay. So first, let's start out with talking about when and where your father was born. Justina Z: So he was born in Jeruco, Michoacan, Mexico on December 7, 1932. The story he tells me about he and my mom is that they lived in the same little ranching community, and he saw her and he said he was going to get with 1 her. And so in those days, the custom was when you took the girl, they were yours. So he would talk to my mom, but my mom was shy and she'd run in the house. Well, eventually, I guess she decided she liked him because then they planned the day he was going to come get her, and then he did. He came and got her, and that was how they got together. From there on, they got married. AK: That's cute. Was it like an elopement? Stella T: They got married in a church. Justina Z: They actually had a formal ceremony. But when the guy took the girl, she became his. That's the story he told me back in the day. Hilda B: They kidnapped her, basically. Maricella G: Betrothed. Justina Z: He had his eye on her from a very, very young age. Hilda B: Tell them about the poem he wrote her [laughing]. Do you remember that? Justina Z: Oh, yeah. He wrote her a poem and he had one of the sisters give it to her. And my mama was embarrassed. So she hid it right here [placing both hands over her heart], and she hid it from my grandma, but my grandma ended up finding out. So her sister was responsible for watching over my mom. 'Course, she wasn't a very good caretaker because my dad was able to come get my mom. But yeah, they had all planned it out once my mom decided that's what she wanted. AK: That's cute. And how old were they when they got married? Justina Z: 16, 17, pretty young. 2 Hilda B: My mom was older than my dad. She was born in July 1932, where he was born in December. Justina Z: Yeah, I don't know what age he came and got her. But 17, I think, is when they got married. AK: Was that pretty typical for that time and place? Hilda B: Oh Yeah. We were considered old maids when we got married, but yes. That was about the right age. AK: So I know we've already kind of talked about this off camera, so there will be some repetitive things, but tell me about what his life was like out there? Justina Z: In Mexico? AK: Mm hm Justina Z: My dad comes from a very poor family. Well, my mom does, too, but they had a ranch, so they cultivated a lot of their products. My dad, on the other hand, comes from a family that... My grandfather wasn't very supportive, so my grandma had to find odd jobs. My dad said that many times, they went without food. They barely had shoes. Sometimes, if they did have shoes, they wore them until they had holes in them. He told me about a time where he would be looking in garbage cans for food because they just didn't have anything. It was a pretty sad story, kind of very poverty-stricken. Hilda B: But he learned to do things. I mean, he had skills that he learned from other people. He made birdhouses. Justina Z: That was at an older age, when they went to Juarez. Hilda B: Yeah, and he sold those. 3 Justina Z: Yeah, they would get whatever they could. Like they'd be on the street selling bubble gum; I don't know where they would get it, but I guess they would get jobs from people to go sell bubblegum on the streets. And so that's what he would do, too. AK: You mentioned that his dad wasn't very supportive. What was his employment like? Justina Z: My grandpa? AK: Yeah, your grandpa. Justina Z: My grandpa didn't work. As a matter of fact, looking back on it, I think he had some mental issues, but at that time you didn't recognize it as that. He just never worked. He was just there, being the head of the household and he wanted to be treated like the head of the household. But he didn't provide. He was just there. AK: So it was mainly your grandma, and then your dad and his siblings who provided for the family? Justina Z: My grandma was the one who did laundry for people. She cleaned houses for people, she cooked for people, that kind of stuff to earn money. Hilda B: And then send out the kids, too, to do their piece. Justina Z: Yes. Yes. AK: And I think I had heard that your parents got married after your dad had already come to America. Is that correct? Hilda B: Yes. Justina Z: No, they'd married before that. 4 Hilda B: No, because he came over illegally. Justina Z: Oh, you mean before they came here? Yes. Hilda B: He came over by himself to earn money and stuff because his plan was to go back and get my mom. And he did go back and marry her, and he brought her after Tina, Stella, and Olga were born. But he saved enough money to bring them. Justina Z: What he told me is that he was coming to the States at a very, very young age looking for work. And he'd be working out in the field, and then all of a sudden, "La migra! La migra! La migra!" And they'd take off running. I had asked him if he'd ever been arrested by immigration. He said no, but apparently he had been. But he said no. He was just always sent back. But I think the first time he came here was around 13 years of age. And then the day came when he decided that he didn't want to do this anymore. So he asked my Uncle Pete, who was a US citizen, if he would help him take care of the necessary paperwork to come back legally. And that's when he was going to bring us back with him. That was myself, and Stella, and at the time, my mom was pregnant with my other sister, Olga. Hilda B: But he brought her to America. Justina Z: Yeah. I think Olga was born in Juarez, on the way here. Yeah, because my dad had documentation for himself, my mom, and me and Stella, but didn't have it for Olga. And so they brought her here illegally, which created another issue later on. Alicia Z: She was born early, though. 5 Hila B: Yeah, she was premature. Alicia Z: So they were anticipating she would be born as a US citizen. Justina Z: Yeah, she was premature. Alicia Z: A couple months early. Hilda B: Well, it's probably the travel, you know. That couldn't have been too easy on the way there. AK: You mentioned that when your dad first came to America, he traveled by foot. And then when he came back for your mom, did they have to travel by foot with you girls as well? Justina Z: We came on bus. Because I asked him, how did we come when he came? He said we came on bus. AK: Okay. So I kind of want to back up a little bit. So your dad first came here when he was 13. What was his first job in America? Justina Z: Working in the fields, picking onions, tomatoes and anything was available. AK: And that was in Kansas, correct? Justina Z: It was Kansas City and Dodge City. Those are the two cities I remember him talking a lot about. Hilda B: Maybe Texas. We don't know. Justina Z: Yeah, cause he was picked up in Laredo. Hilda B: Yeah. Yeah. So he was picked up in Kansas City and Laredo, and there is documentation that shows that. And that's why I'm surprised he said he didn't ever get arrested. Justina Z: No, I did ask him. 6 Hilda B: Anyway. Memories. Sometimes you just want to forget [laughs]. Justina Z: And I feel bad, I should know more about my dad and my mom, but I don't. And it's because... I'm going to tell you something very sensitive: I was terrified of my dad growing up, so I kept my distance from him. It's later on in life when he needed help with my mom that I stepped in and started helping more. But if I was to help him, I said, "Dad, I'm willing to come in and help you any way I can. But please don't get mad at me." He says, "Why would I do that, mija? You're going to take time out of your life to come help me." And he never got angry at me. So those moments are the moments that I took to get to know my dad. And when he died, I was really brokenhearted, because for the first time in my life, I was going to get to know this man that I was terrified of my whole life growing up. So that really hurt. But we did share some memories and he did tell me some things that I never knew about. AK: I love that. So when did he take the job with the railroad? How old was he? Hilda B: He would have been 18? 19? Justina Z: We came in '56. Alicia Z: '57 is what this paper says. Justina Z: No, wait, yes. Yes. When he came to the railroad, he came legally to work on the railroad. Hilda B: But you guys, how old were you? Justina Z: I was four or five. Alicia Z: I wasn't born [all laugh]. 7 Hilda B: No, I know. But you know what? It was the year that Olga should have been born in '55 or '56, because she should have been born here and she was not. And that's what brought him here was the railroad. He had his paperwork and he was ready to start and get his job. And that's what was doing it, you know, because back then they needed the railroads – I did some research on this – for transmitting by rail all the military stuff because of the war. And they were trying to get all the equipment from here to there, and they needed help to build the tracks to get it built to Ogden, Promontory Point. And so that's why he was hired; to fill in, because the men were... Justina Z: My Uncle Pete was able to sponsor him to work for the railroad. AK: Because Uncle Pete was already working for the railroad, is that correct? Justina Z: Yes, and he's the one that was born here. AK: Okay. Tell me a little bit about that. So your grandmother had Pete and John out here, and then your dad was in Mexico still. And you mentioned how Pete and John were citizens, but Concepcion was not. Justina Z: Right. AK: Okay. [To Arlene] Did you have something you wanted to talk about with that? Arlene A: Yeah. The importance of that is just the struggles when you have these type of families where some are citizens and some are not. And to this day, we still have those families. And so it's important to be sensitive because you have resources as a U.S. citizen that you don't necessarily have as an 8 undocumented immigrant. And it affects the entire family because of the haves and have-nots based on that piece of paper, that citizenship Hilda B: And it did affect us, mm-hmm. Arlene A: So I just wanted to add that to this day, we still have families in those situations. AK: What did you see with your family? How did that affect your dad's family dynamics? Arlene A: It was very hard because my two uncles, again, they had every opportunity and they were able to take advantage of many of those opportunities. Like my sister Alicia said, had my father had a formal education, who knows the incredible opportunities he could have had? But because he struggled and didn't have that citizenship, he worked hard labor every single day of his life. But he also knew that he had all of us that were depending on him and my mother. AK: And I also meant to ask earlier, what kind of education was he able to get in Mexico, where he lived? Justina Z: He was able to go to school. But again, he was a prankster. He would do things in class to get himself into trouble. And the one he told me about is he would get the girls braids and he'd tie them to the chair. And that happened more than once. And then he got in trouble, he got kicked out of school. He didn't tell my grandma, but he'd get up every morning, get ready to go, and he'd go off in the field and hang out, and then he'd go home when it was time to go home. So my grandma didn't know he wasn't in school, 9 and he just did that for, I don't know how long, and never got an education. Although he could have, but he said he didn't like school. Hilda B: But you know what, I think it has to do with, I think he had dyslexia that was not known at the time. Justina Z: Yes, I think he did. Hilda B: Because later on, we tried to get him ESL, and I had people come into the house to help him. He was learning his A-B-Cs and he was so proud when he learned them all. He was taught to read based on the pictures and stuff, so he had recognized words, like you said; he could recognize stuff. But his B's, his S's, his D's, he was reading them backwards. And I thought, "That might be why he was having trouble when he was young." Justina Z: Yeah, and I do believe he did have dyslexia because I was going to teach him how to read and write. And I'd be sitting with him and mom at the kitchen table, I’d have these kindergarten-type books, and he couldn't put his words together. So I thought, "Dad's got dyslexia," because I'm very familiar with that. And I'm thinking, "Oh my gosh, no wonder he didn't wanna go to school." Hilda B: They didn't diagnose that way back then. But I recognized that, you recognized that, and he eventually gave up his schooling here. But that's another story. Justina Z: Because it was embarrassing for him. AK: And did he struggle to read both Spanish and English, then? 10 Hilda B: He understood English and he understood Spanish verbally. But I don't know that it made any difference in that, because I think the dyslexia... We don't know if he had it because he was never diagnosed, but I think that's what it was. Justina Z: I honestly believe he had it, too, because he couldn’t put his words together, where Mom would just sound it out and it would come out. Dad couldn't do that. Hilda B: And he depended on my mom to help, too. That was the other thing. Because she had a higher education than he did. Justina Z: Second grade [laughing]. Hilda B: Or third? We don't know. Justina Z: She said second. Hilda B: Ok. That's what I thought it was, second grade. Justina Z: Because Mom quit school to go help in the fields. And then she realized she didn't like school, so she made her Dad let her work in the field. So that's what she chose to do, work in the fields rather than go to school, because she found school difficult. AK: You guys were talking earlier about how your dad learned how to speak English on his way to Kansas the first time, is that correct? That he kind of just picked it up as he was traveling? Hilda B: He told me he was taught English when he was a busboy or a dishwasher. And they say, 'We need more forks," and he'd go [shrugs]. And so they would start picking up the forks, "Fork," and then, "Spoon." You know, he 11 knew what it was in Spanish, and so he started acquiring what they needed. And like, "I need," that means, "They need," you know. And so that's how I remember him learning English: the basics of the silverware, flatware, dishes, in the dishwasher capacity he was in, he started learning. And he had a great memory, like was said. He was amazing, what he did. AK: So what was the first job that he got with the railroad? Justina Z: He was a laborer, laying the ties. That's what I remember him talking about; the ties. And it was all physical. Now they have machines, but it was all physical. And he was pounding them in, pounding them in. He did that for several years before he got his lamp tender position. That was the job that he retired with. He was a laborer, then lamp tender. Hilda B: Tell them about the discipline. They need to hear about the discipline they took out on the workers. Justina Z: Oh yeah. Dad said that they were required to carry these heavy ties and move them into position to where they needed to put them. And sometimes if they weren't moving fast enough, because time was money, they would whip them. And I said, "What?" He says, "Yeah, you didn't know that?" I said, "No, Dad." He said, "Yeah, they would whip us. They would hit us because we weren't moving fast enough." I said, "Dad, that's illegal!" And I'm thinking, back in the day, probably not [laughs]. AK: Yeah. Were these foremen usually white, just out of curiosity? All: A lot of them were back then, yes. AK: Interesting. There was a lot of racism going on there, probably, too. 12 Justina Z: Yeah. And I remember, and I don't know who he was talking to, but I remember him saying that he was talking to someone, and he says, "You see this skin? If I bleed, what color is it? If you bleed, what color is it? So aren't we the same?" And I said, "Wow, my dad makes lots of sense. He's a smart man." Hilda B: Yeah, he was a wise man. Justina Z: And I'll say, Wow. That's amazing. Hilda B: The same color. But you know what? I also think part of it - this is just me thinking - a lot of it is the religion that we were raised. He would go to church and a lot of it is, "We're made in the image of God." We're all made with the same spirit. Different skin maybe, but I think he had that indwelling in him that he knew we're all human beings made in the image of God, and we all bled the same. AK: What were his hours like while he was railroad working? Justina Z: 7:00 to 3:30? But then again, that was his normal hours. He could be called in the middle of the night to go do something, and that was a common thing. Hot weather, wet weather. Hilda B: And he had to go sometimes, I remember, in Nevada. He'd be called to Nevada and he'd be gone all week. Irma Z: Wasn't there a place called Promontory Point? Hilda B: Yeah, that was more north, but I remember a lot of it was to Nevada, and I don't know why, but they must have had a lot of issues there. AK: Yeah, I was gonna ask where he laid track. Do you guys happen to know? 13 Justina Z: He would talk... I don't even know if Salinas is in Utah, but he would talk about that. Irma Z: It is. There's a Salina in Utah. It’s down south, Justina Z: When he first came with the railroad, I remember they had provided him a home. It was just like a four-wall structure. I remember living in there. It had a wood-burning stove, a bed, and we had to go to the bathroom at the outhouse. I do remember him providing that to us as a place to live because it was out in nowhere land. And we had very little of anything because I remember, we had one blanket to share and they would cover Stella and I with that and we would sit in the corner by the wood-burning stove to try to stay warm. And I remember them saying there was a time where they only had one potato. So Mom says, "Cion, what should we do?" And he says, "Feed the girls." So they would go without. Stella T: Yeah, he would feed us instead of... Justina Z: But they were proud that they had this little place they could call home. And although it was all wood - wood floor - it always smelled clean. AK: And was that in Ogden? Justina Z: That was... I want to say it's out in Promontory Point, Salinas, that comes to mind. Hilda B: I was thinking it was Nevada for some reason. Justina Z: It was somewhere in nowhere land, because I remember there was a railroad track right behind and just nothing but dirt. Hilda B: That's what I remember; desert. 14 Justina Z: And a big hole over to the side, a huge hole, and then this big, huge tree. AK: So when he first got his job with the railroad, he was based out of Promontory Point, is that correct? Justina Z: Somewhere in that – somewhere out somewhere. Yeah. That's what I vaguely remember. AK: And was he excited about this job? Was this considered a good job for him? Justina Z: Well, he was excited because he's going to have a steady job. Hilda B: You know, and I had a lot of documentation – I don't know what happened to it – but I remember seeing something that said it was only like $23,000 a year. But back then, that was a fortune at the time and for anybody from Mexico, because in Mexico a dollar was good. Justina Z: But that could have been later on in his career, because back in the '50s it would have been a lot less. Hilda B: It could have been, I don't know, and that's the thing. I don't know, maybe it was $17,000, but it seems like I remember seeing $25,000 or $23,000 in my adult head thinking, "Wow, that was a lot for back then." Yeah, but I don't know why I remember $23,000. I had that stuff and I don't know what happened to it. But anyway, it was considered a great job. Not on the standards of Americans though, because that was to feed a family of five and they still struggled. At the time, it was a fortune. Arlene A: And I know the perspective is to focus on my father, but I also wanted to add that my mother had a lot to do also with the success because she had to be resilient, resourceful, with the very little that they had to raise all of us. And 15 so while my father was working hard labor at the railroad station, my mom would maintain the home, make sure food was on the table, she would sew; She used all her skills and talents and the resources that she had to clothe all of these daughters that they had. Hilda B: I'll give you an idea. She grew the garden: jalapenos, tomatoes, peaches, apricots, whatever. She would do that and she would can it for the winter. Maria N: Well, they talked about the potatoes – My mom, even if she only had one left, she would make that potato stretch for different meals. That's how resourceful my mom was. Hilda B: And way back then, they would get flour in sacks – what are they called? Gunny sacks. And that was like a muslin or some kind of calico. She would take that and stitch it and make shorts or tops for all of us. And she knew how to sew. Justina Z: She didn't waste anything. Hilda B: And she did it without patterns. We do sewing, but with patterns. She would look at it and she would make it. So we all had clothes that way that were homemade, and you couldn't tell. They were very nice. AK: That's amazing. You guys were also telling me a little bit about her herbal medicine as well. Would you also tell me about that again so the camera can capture it? Some of the things that she would grow, some of her home remedies. Maricella G: I just remember the potatoes on the forehead when we had a fever or something. And she would dip them into something; They weren't sopping 16 wet and they weren't hard like when you first peel a potato. But I just remember the potatoes on the forehead. Hilda B: To cool, probably. Well, I remember when we had a sore throat, she would make a concoction. Now I'm hearing that it's peppermint. I don't know. I just remember she would put it, and make this concoction that… Justina Z: It included rice. Hilda B: I don't know what it had. Justina Z: Yeah, because the rice she said sucked it out, with whatever herb she put it in there. Hilda B: And she would make it and we would drink it and we'd get better. So she had that knowledge of herbal medicine that she learned from the ancient times. Justina Z: Yeah, but she also put it around our necks. Hilda B: Yes. And once I remember I had measles – and that was at the old house on Stevens – she, I don't remember her doing the potatoes, but I just remember being wrapped, with the knowledge that she had so that I wouldn't scratch my face, I wouldn't scratch my arms or itch 'em if they were itchy, and just being put in a dark room, which happened to be what they said later on with measles: "Keep them in the dark." Irma Z: I think I remember her doing this. I was sick one day and she put me in a dark room and there was like Vicks or some kind of smell in there and... Yes, she would do that all the time. So I remember that. I think it was a Vicks smell. 17 Maricella G: Mm hm. Good old Vicks [chuckling]. Stella T: She would put Vicks on your chest and on your throat. Maria N: Vicks was her medicine [laughs], Irma Z: To this day, I use Vicks. Maricella G: So do I [all laugh]. Hilda B: And eucalyptus. I think she used eucalyptus in those concoctions Irma and Maria: Alicia Z: Mm hm [nodding in agreement]. I don’t know, I just remember the spearmint was her hierbabuena. Yeah. It's crazy because to this day I still use it even though I don't know if it's a wives' tale or what because I don't remember, I was so young. I don't know if they really worked. I don't remember. But for canker sores or toothache, she'd always go out to the garden, get a little spearmint leaf and put it in our mouth. And not too long ago – it was sometime last year – I had this horrendous canker sore and we were just happening to be growing herbs, I'm like, "Yeah, I'm going to try and see if it works." Put it in there and yeah, by the next day it'd shrunk. And I'm like, "Wow, I guess it does work." [all laugh] So there's just stuff that, you know, looking back, you're like, "That was kind of silly and ridiculous;” the rice in a bag around your throat. I remember her doing that. And I'm like, "What is this?" But it cured us. Hilda B: You know, it makes sense, Alicia, because my little Asher gets canker sores and I Googled it and it said to use mouthwash with peppermint in it to get rid of them, and they go away. 18 AK: Interesting. So you said a lot of this was passed down from her mom and her grandma? Hilda B: Yeah, she learned it from the ancient times. I read a book, and it talks about using a lot of those herbs for different things. Like, cocaine helps reduce swelling and stuff. Not like cocaine as in drugs, but we're talking the coca leaf and stuff like that. It's been abused because people misuse it. But I think all of this stuff is provided for a reason, and in its natural form, it's correct to use. And that's what she learned. AK: That's really cool. Also, I want to talk a little bit about access to health care and insurance: You guys were talking about that a little bit, that your dad did get insurance through his job, but that it wasn't very good coverage. Is that kind of what we were talking about? Justina Z: That's what I remember. The coverage wasn't always what we needed. I remember many times going to the doctor and if we couldn't pay up front, or if the insurance didn't cover it or couldn't pay it up front, we were sent away. And that's why I think my mom became resourceful, the way she was, because we were turned away many times. AK: And was some of that to do with money or with racism? Justina Z: It could be looked at both ways. I thought it was because of money, but who knows? It could have been racism at the time. AK: I know you’d mentioned a story about the dentist and the racism there. Irma Z: I remember going to the dentist, you know, leaving junior high school and taking the bus to go to the dentist and having him tell me I have 15 cavities. 19 My dad would get mad. And I'm like, "Dad, I promise I brush my teeth every single day. I don't think I have that many cavities." But I think the dentist did that because he knew my dad would pay. And I told my dad, "I'm not going to go to that dentist anymore because I think he's taking advantage of you." So he goes, "If you can find another dentist, we'll switch." And so I did. I found another dentist and I started going, and lo and behold, I had no cavities. And I told my dad, I think that dentist took advantage of my dad because I think he knew that my dad would pay what needed to be done. Stella T: Exactly. Justina Z: And also, my dad didn't like to question too much, because he was petrified that if he'd cause a stir, they would be deported. Although he had his green card, he was still afraid he would be deported. Hilda B: Mm hm. And they could be, too, if there was something done illegally. So that was always at the back of his head. AK: Did he have any kind of recourse if he ran into issues like that? Like legal recourse or anything like that? Hilda B: [sighs] You know, yeah, we could have always appealed to the courts and stuff. Back then, we didn't know; but now that we're adults, we know. When he retired, we did some research because we knew that the insurance they had was minimal. But when he retired, my husband and I looked at it and we were able to get him a better retirement. So, even though he struggled at the beginning, at the end he was covered. My mom and my dad were covered through any emergency, any horrible thing. My mother had 20 leukemia and cancer that we were able to get treated at 100% coverage because we were able to figure out how to get them good coverage. And they didn't really have to worry. They had a prescription that they had to… but we all kind of helped when we could. But for the most part, you know, the benefits that he earned from the railroad helped him in his later years. So it's good for him that way. AK: And how long were you guys in Promontory Point? Do you remember? Justina Z: I think maybe a year or year and a half. Stella T: A couple of years, I would say. Yeah, because I was fallin’, I was below the line. Justina Z: Because when I started school, my mom and dad had me stay with my uncle. And I don't know why Stella stayed with us, because she wasn’t in grade school, but I remember we stayed with my Uncle Pete and Aunt Nancy. And there were issues there, so my dad decided to look for a place for us to live, so we came into Ogden when I was going into maybe the second grade? Because I remember going there and being bullied and going through my own things. And then the teacher said, "Don't worry about them, you're gonna be just fine." And I was in second grade. So yeah, maybe a year, or year and a half. AK: So was there like railroad housing in Ogden that you guys knew moved into? Justina Z: No. Actually, he got an apartment on Grant and then we moved into the home on Stevens. So, no, we didn't. I don't think so. 21 Stella T: That's right. We lived on Grant. And then we went over to Stevens. Hilda B: And that home was very nice. It was a brick cottage-type home. It had a big backyard that my mom could grow her gardens. I remember Stella playing in the trees and falling and hurting herself. And they had a ditch where she would drain the water and it would water her garden. [Overlapping chatter] flood the garden. And it wasn't too long where they condemned that area, which is disappointing that they did that. They had to move. They didn't get as much as I think they should have for the property. I don't know. I was young, but I just remember thinking later on in my adult life, this is what they did. And so they were forced to move into this home where they lived for the rest of their lives in Ogden. And it was called the [00:31:41]Shubadicion [0.0s] on west of Wall, about Fourth Street, and that's where they lived and continued. But the home was smaller and less property. But that's where all of us were raised, and we didn't have any wants. We were taken care of. Just after my later years as an adult, I could see that they were disadvantaged, especially where you talked about the story about the neighbors doing what they did. [To Justina] Do you want to explain? Justina Z: About when we moved there? Hilda B: Mhm, and the collection? Justina Z: Now, I don't remember the collection, but I do remember when we got... Don't look at me like that [laughing]. Hilda B: You just told me yesterday. You were talking about it. Justina Z: A collection? 22 Hilda B: Yeah, where they didn't want Mom and Dad there because they were Mexican. Justina Z: Oh, well, this is what I remember. When we moved to Gwen, I remember the neighbor coming over and saying, "What are you doing here?" I said, "Well, I just bought this home." “Well, who let you buy that home?" I said, "Well, I just bought it. I brought my family here." "Well, you don't belong here. You see all these neighbors? You don't belong here." Stella T: Yeah. All the white people in the neighborhood Justina Z: That's what I remember. And my dad said, "I belong here just as much as anybody else." Hilda B: But they had taken a collection to help him get out of the area. Justina Z: Okay, See, that's the part... Hilda B: That's the part you told me about, too, that I didn't know about. I mean, I remember that the neighbor didn't want us there to play with his girls, and because we were not of the dominant religion, we were not white, we were not as good as them, and we couldn't play. But the children we went to school with and I became friends with the neighbor lady. But then the neighbor to the west of us was very kind. Again, I talk about the two different situations where one didn't want us there, the other one was very kind and compassionate, and that man became like a father figure to my dad. And we helped him mow, we did his snow shoveling. And my dad at the end found him when he died outside in the winter because he was cleaning off his... And that broke my dad's heart because he thought of him as a father figure. 23 But those were the situations that I remember that impacted my dad and us. But my neighbor to the west was very kind to us. All: Yeah. AK: So do you guys remember what the demographics of Ogden were like at that time? Justina Z: Caucasian, mostly Caucasian. Alicia Z: Yeah, it was mostly Caucasian. I don't remember ever being in school and not being a minority. All: Yeah. Alicia Z: Um, it was all white. Hilda B: You know what, I looked at my school – I don't know if you guys looked at your high school records, but I did. I went back through the yearbook. There are 371 high school seniors, I'm very proud of that. Of that, 23 were non-whites, and only about 12 of us were Hispanic or of Spanish descent. And so that ended up to be about 6%. And now I think Arlene says it's like 51%. Alicia Z: 51% Hispanic. Hilda B: So that's how much it grew. We didn't know. I mean, then the people I knew that were Hispanic, they were like cousins [laughs]. Yeah. So something that, you know. AK: Yeah, because people often talk about how the railroad brought people from all over, making Ogden more diverse. Do you feel like that's true? 24 Hilda B: I think it started, because when we lived at Stephens, there were a lot of people there that were um... Justina Z: Lot of Black, lot of Hispanic. Hilda B: Uh huh. And it was that neighborhood that, maybe that was why they got rid of it. I don't know. Justina Z: Yeah, that, but when we lived at Stephens, yeah, a lot of them were minorities. But when we moved to Gwen, a lot of them were white. I think I was the only Mexican. Hilda B: Yeah, I think so. I think we were, too. Yeah, cause I remember even school, I thought – and I never thought about it, but that's how we grew up and that's what we knew. So I didn't think, "Oh, we don't have many minorities." I didn't think that way. Justina Z: Well, the only thing I thought is that, I didn't think people liked me because of my skin color. I did notice that because not very many, hardly anybody talked to me. And kept thinking it was because of my skin color. And I hated my skin color at that time. Because I thought that's why nobody liked me. AK: Why did you think that? Justina Z: Because I was the minority. And there was no other people like me in school. Irma Z: I think we always got teased or made not to be able to play with anybody at school because we were not the same color. And that was hard for me. Maria N: But in today's world now, they all want to be our skin color [laughs]. 25 Hilda B: You know, the only thing that I can remember about that time was that it was usually the older generations; I don't think our peers were as discriminating as they were. Justina Z: They were when I was there. Hilda B: I don't think our peers were Justina Z: Yeah, yeah [agreeing] Hilda B: Because I felt more welcome than you did, probably. But when I was interacting with the older generation, they would pat me on my head: "Oh, you speak so well for a Mexican." I'm going, "Well, I went to school here. I am an American, I am a citizen." But it was the pat on the head, like a little kid. I was an adult. "Oh, you speak so well." Irma Z: Well, it's kind of funny because I hear that, too. Justina Z: Well, what happened to me is that they would call me retard. Because I didn't know the language. So I was called a retard and at that time it was derogatory. It still is. But I was “retard.” Hilda B: And tell the stories where they hit you on your hand. Stella T: That was catechism. Justina Z: Yeah, that was catechism. Hilda B: But would they hit her on her hand when she didn't speak. Justina Z: Yeah. But I didn't want to speak because they would always make fun of me and I would get called retard and I didn't think that was a good word. Not understanding language that way, I just didn't think that was a good word 'cause everybody laughed. 26 Hilda B: But I have to appreciate you, Tina, because she learned from this. And this is why I think we're in the situation where we are, and the circumstances where we are, because she learned that if we don't learn to speak English, we're going to be in trouble. She would come home – my dad must have gotten a blackboard. I just remember this – and she would teach us. We had like a little school in the back or somewhere, and she would teach us. And that's how we learned, because Spanish was our first language and English became our second language. AK: Did your mother know how to speak English? Stella T: Little. Very little. Maricella G: She understood it, but she didn't speak it. Justina Z: At the end, she knew a lot more than what she let on to believe. Hilda B: She was learning it. Maricella G: I remember growing up, listening to her say, "Spanish is my first language. I will never give it up." And she said, "We will speak Spanish in the home." Hilda B: But she was learning. Do you know why she stopped? Maricella G: 'Cause we made fun of her. Hilda B: I didn't make fun of her. Olga made fun of her, would laugh, and she became embarrassed. And I thought, you know what? That's okay. Learn it. And she gave up. Stella T: She gave it up. Because Olga would say, “What’s the matter? What’s wrong?” [All talking over each other so the rest was inaudible] Hilda B: So even her own family. 27 Maria N: You know what, every time I'd get with my mom, I'd say, "Okay, you're going to speak English and I'll speak Spanish." That was the only way she would communicate. You know, I wanted her to learn just a few. I mean, even if it was just simple words like, “Hello, how are you?” You know, just simple. So. AK: So, okay, I have two topics I want to cover: Segregation in Ogden, and then I want to go from there to the community that was built as a result of some of that struggle. So let's start out…you guys are talking a little bit about how there were certain grocery stores that your family wasn't allowed to go to. Correct? Were there other places like movie theaters or restaurants or anything like that that you weren’t allowed in? Maria N: We seldom ever went to restaurants. Justina Z: We never went to restaurants. Maria: It was like very seldom. Justina Z: Growing up, we never went to a restaurant. Maricella G: I do remember once trying one time, we went to Kmart and I remember being followed and I was a little kid. I just remember being followed. Maria N: See, Mom and Dad's favorite place was that Chinese restaurant… Hilda B: That was in their retirement years and adulthood. But I think we're talking about growing up and segregation. Maria N: No, I know. But that's what I'm saying. It was like a specialty when we would all go as a family to dinner. And I remember going to China… Hilda B: But that was, we were adults. Stella T: When we were younger, we were not allowed to go to the movies. 28 Hilda B: Firstly because it was expensive. It was very expensive. So to feed all of us would have been outrageous. But segregation, I think you [referring to Justina] talked about being in those grocery stores that we couldn’t attend or go through. Justina Z: The grocery stores. Grant's, K-Mart. Yeah, we would get followed. AK: By who? Maricella G: Anybody that works for the store, an employee just kind of watching us, what we're doing. Justina Z: And then there was a couple of times that I remember that we got stopped and they searched our bags. And I remember going to the store, too, and I was there by myself and I was petrified because they pulled me over and they wanted to search my purse and I'm thinking, "Oh my gosh, they're going to tell my dad. I'm going to be in so much trouble." But they found nothing because I hadn't taken anything. But that was what would happen. They would follow us around. Hilda B: And in a way, I don't think the mentality has changed too much because even when I was adult, I would remember being followed and, you know, I ignored it because I knew I hadn't taken anything. And I would just find the clerk or the self-cashier and have them walk me around, and then they'd leave me alone. But I just thought, "You know what? You're wasting your time." So I don't know that that was the mentality. It could have been. I'm thinking the [inaudible] when you were young, when you were younger. Yes, I'm sure. 29 Justina Z: I'm sure it was because of who we were. Hilda B: Yeah, that would have been in the '60s. Justina Z: Because that was the mentality that you don't... it was very common there to discriminate and people didn't think second of that. So, yeah, we were not the same people that usually shop there, so we would get followed. And the two times that I do recall going into the grocery store and they would tell us we don't belong there. So we went right back out and I don't remember where we'd go grocery shopping, but I do know that that happened. Hilda B: And I think that Mom and Dad would go to the grocery store that was on 2nd Street, because they were more welcome there. Justina Z: Wainsgards? Irma Z: Wainsgards. Hilda B: Wainsgards. Yeah, and that's where they went. It didn't matter. They weren't, that was where they were going to go 'cause they felt more welcome there. And it's just, I don't know why people do what they do, but. Justina Z: There was an Earl's Market right on the corner of Wall and 32nd, I think, because that was next to where we lived. And that owner there was very, very kind. That's what I remember, that he was just kind. Everybody else seemed like they didn't want us there. Well, they actually told us they didn't want us there. AK: [To Irma] You had a comment, too? Irma Z: Well, I just remember when Alisha told me about the time that she and Arlene went to Dillard's and they were going to go get some clothes. And 30 one of the employees there followed them around and basically told him that they didn't belong here. And that was, what, just like 15 years ago? And so they were like, you know, and Arlene and Alisha have money that they could spend there. And it's just like that Pretty Woman when she goes in there and says, "Big mistake." That's exactly what happened. Maricella G: Or the Selena story. Remember when she went to the store? Selena Quintanilla? Oh, she's a Latin music artist. She went into a store to buy a dress for the Grammys, and they followed her around saying, "You can't afford the money." And so she just grabbed her friend and says, "Let's go." And I think she told the store manager something, “big mistake.” And then they saw her, I guess, on TV the next day. Irma Z: Well, no, all the people in the mall saw, "That's Selena," and they followed her and they didn't realize who she was. Maricella G: She was a big music artist. Alicia Z: Off topic. Maricella G: Okay, we're talking about discrimination. Alicia Z: What I wanted to say, though, is kind of like to Hilda's point: growing up, I don't think I can remember necessarily any discrimination against me because I was a kid. I just played with whoever I wanted to play with. I mean, I didn’t think about it. It's only until I reached adulthood that I can see it. And so what I think was going on was my parents, even though they weren't the dominating culture in America, knew how to protect us and shield us from that discrimination, and they would do that by finding groups 31 that were more accepting. We went out of our way to go to St Mary's Catholic Church, which is a journey from where we lived. To go see movies: We didn't go see our English-speaking movies; My mom and dad would plan trips and the closest theater was in Salt Lake City, so me and Arlene, we thought it was fun because every time we’d go to the theater, we'd get popcorn, and we were little, so we weren't paying attention to the movies. And my mom and dad would get upset about it 'cause they’re watching their movies and we're just playing around. But those were fun trips for us. So it was my parents finding community that was accepting and shielding us from that community that wasn't. And so that's why I think growing up, my parents were so fricken' smart that they recognized that and were able to shield us and protect us from that. But I grew up not realizing it until I'm an adult and now I see it everywhere. Hilda B: Yeah, I do too. But to add to that, keeping us in our heritage, they recognize the discrimination out there and they protected this lifestyle. And part of that was us learning our heritage through folk dancing. They enrolled us with a group of their friends who were teaching children the generation of the folklore dances. You know, the big dresses and the hats and the Mexican Hat Dance and all that; We did that.You know, we thought, "Oh, we don't want to do this," but we did it, and I'm glad we did. I still have some of the costumes. Well, no, I had bought this one to replace some of the costumes that my mom made. She made our costumes and we'd dance, and there's 32 pictures of us dancing. And on stage, we had to do recitals or presentations to the community. Maria N: We didn't have very many guys that would do the dancing, and so I was always a guy. Irma Z: Me too [Both laugh] Hilda B: And so again, we learned, and we met people out there that were experiencing the same thing we did and we learned about our history and these dances, and I... In fact, I think Arlene just went to one just recently for Hispanic Heritage Week. And those are the kind of things that bring fond memories. So my mom and my dad took care to make sure that we learned our history. Alicia Z: It just made me think of something. The one thing I do remember as a kid feeling discrimination against was lunches. We, from our Mexican culture, we take rice and beans, egg sandwiches, which were completely different than all these Caucasian lunches. So I'd always get complaints or teased by that: "Ew. What is that? Ew. What is that smell? Ew, that's gross." To me, it was our everyday food staple. Go home, have rice and beans, tortillas. But at school, I'd get made fun of. That I do remember, is my lunches getting made fun of. Everything else... I don't recall ever being discriminated against, but my lunches, I would because it was a different cuisine than what everybody was used to. AK: And I love what you said about your parents trying to create community, keep the culture alive, like the family history and everything. But were there 33 groups of people that would come together as a result of the segregation that you would find? I guess what I’m asking is, were there people who came together to create that sense of community within Ogden as well? Hilda B: There actually was a... Wasn't there like a group, “Community Action,” or something where they did these presentations? Maricella G: Yes, I think I do remember that. Hilda B: What was that called? Maricella G: I don't remember. Hilda B: But it was in Ogden and they actually had it in Salt Lake City where they would do these presentations of these dances and the food. You would come. It was actually way, way back before they did these big like here in Ogden. Justina Z: I remember them having picnics. Hilda B: Picnics and stuff like that, but you--- Maricella G: I remember they would have groups goin' to Lagoon. Hilda B: Yeah. Maricella G: That would be fun because they would have, like, I guess “Mexican Day” or whatever you want to call it. Justina Z: Father's Day. Father's Day was a big day for Latinos at Lagoon. Hilda B: Yeah. And the church would even give them free passes because there was no way my dad could have afforded that. We would get so many tickets. I remember doing that, but so they would try to bring us together, and my dad 34 knew a lot of these people that, same thing: like he brought us together to learn these dances, same thing. They would all talk and they would network. Maria N: And speaking of the Union Station, we all had our weddings there. We had the big fancy dinners, traditional Mexican wedding. That was an all-day thing. Hilda B: And I do have to add to that too, when you're finished. Maria N: And those are just memorable. And that's where we pretty much had our weddings. AK: So I'm curious: why Union Station? Maricella G: Because that was a big enough venue that would hold the number of people that were invited. Maria N: [pointing at herself and Maricella] We had a double wedding and so we had – granted, we all had our weddings there – but we had people comin', it was just so memorable. Maricella G: And my mom would do all the cooking. She was a caterer. Alicia Z: There was big parties. People would come like, who are they? Who are these people? Hey, it's a Zisumbo wedding. It's a party. Let's go. Maria N: People remember it, even to this day. Hilda B: You know what, let me explain on this: Back then, it's customary for the father to have this big to-do. And it was to have a Catholic wedding, a reception with all the trimmings, and then followed by a dance where would hire a dance. And it was an honor to do this for the daughter, the family, the community, and bring everybody together. And that Union Station was the 35 only place that would authorize that, because otherwise, if you went to these, they’d go, “A dance and you're Mexican?” There was very strict rules on the Mexicans. We said they liked to have alcohol. We'd have to get a license to do that. We had to hire security. Nowhere else would you have to hire a security to come to a wedding and protect the people. They were afraid that these people, [gestures at table] these people, [all laugh] these people would have fights because that's what they heard. Fistfights, brawls, whatever you want to call them. And so when we got married, we had to hire security to make sure to keep the peace. Maria N: But you know what, there was no fighting or... Hilda B: It was fun. Maria N: Just a fun, memorable wedding. Stella T: A celebration Hilda B: And I have pictures if you want to see. But the thing is, at the dance, you presented the couple in a formal dance that my mom and dad had somebody to lead us. It was a formal, "This is the couple," and you did this…[gestures in a circle] Maria N: It was a formal wedding dance, [air quotes] “Mexican-style.” Hilda B: And so the couple started it off. And “doo-doo-doo” [mimicking music]. Anyway, I have a picture of that, too. But it's like, this is what they had to do for us to show that it was an honorable ceremony, honorable marriage, and they were presenting us as a couple. But this is what we had to do at the 36 Union Station. They were the only place that would have a hall that we could have a dance with. Irma Z: I think we all had our receptions there. Hilda B: But I think to me the discrimination was that they thought that we were going to have all these fights and stuff, and guns and knives. And we were required to pay for security for the number of people we're having there. My husband remembers that, even. Mr. Brown from off camera: Yeah, I thought, "Wait a minute, I'm a cop." [All laughing] So I had to go find some off-duty cops and hire 'em to come in and make sure I didn't get in a fight. Stella T: I actually have four cops in the family. Hilda B: But this is what we had to do. And I don't think that any other group would have to do that. But we had to because of the perception out there, maybe. AK: So in recent years, it seems like Union Station has become a community center for Ogden. Was it always? Irma Z: Mm. I don't think so. Maricella G: I don't think so. I just remember it being a train station. Irma Z: Mm hm. Hilda B: Yeah. AK: So it wasn't necessarily a symbol of community or anything like that? Maricella G: No, the Union Station itself I think was the train station where you bought your ticket, you’d board the train, whatever. But off to the side was their 37 “community center,” as you would call it, where we held our reception and dance. But the Union Station itself was the train station. AK: Okay. And when was your double wedding? Maricella: 1980. AK: Okay. So it was after the train stopped going through. Maricella and Maria: Hilda B: Correct. I mean, they lost some of their financial support back then because the trains were going away. I mean, they brought the people here. It was a center. Justina Z: Well, my dad worked for the Southern Pacific. Hilda B: Yes, and they were losing their finances, too, and they had to consolidate with other railroads. Justina Z: The Union Railroad, I think. Hilda B: And that was, I think, where they tried to reduce the seniority levels. And I think they started implementing all these tests and stuff that my dad didn't... He knew all the stuff, but that's when they started doing it. And I thought, "Why are they doing this? He should be grandfathered in. He's been here since forever." And then when he retired, that was another issue. But that's, I don't know… It was good because it brought us here, but there was discrimination that I saw that I think now it was discrimination; They were just trying to minimize the reduced force and they were going to start with my dad, I guess. 38 AK: So I want to hear more about your dad's work on the railroad. So he started out as a laborer, laying rail ties and railroad. How long was he in that position? Was he there for a while before he moved up? Justina Z: I don't remember. But he did that for a long time. AK: And then what was his next position? All: Lamptender AK: Okay. Tell me about that job. What all did that entail? Justina Z: The Lamptender, he had to make sure that the lamps were always clean and visible for the trains to see as they're coming in. Maria N: Especially in the wintertime. Hilda B: And to repair them and fix them if they were not functioning. AK: And were these lamps all along the rails or just at certain stations? Maricella G: I think they were at certain stations, because it's just kind of like a streetlight. You're on the road, and every now and again you’ll see a streetlight and then you go up further and there's another streetlight. So I think that's how the railroad worked. So he had to go along the tracks to make sure every lamp was working properly. Maria N: It was a certain distance. Hilda B: Plus I think it was at the changeovers, too, you know – where, say, "Okay, they're going to change here and change there." Maricella G: Especially those, yeah. Hilda B: So they could be a lot of distance. I just remember he had to drive and go with people in the truck to wherever they needed to and they'd check them, 39 and he actually, knew a lot of the different jobs. That might have been his official one but he was called in to fill in as a temporary foreman at the time, which he didn't want to. We talked about that because he had to remember who worked what and because of his illiteracy, he didn't want to do it because he couldn't read and write to record people's time and where it was spent, because they had to be accurate. I remember him coming and crying to me and I think to Tina too, I don't know. But he sat on the bed and said he didn't want to do it because he knew he couldn't do it. But we all helped him. He had a great memory. He would tell us who worked specifically, how many hours there, how many hours there. And he always got it right, so that they kept asking him to do it, up until even Alicia [overlapping chatter]. Maria N: He would bring home the time cards and we would have to fill them out. We would fill out the information on the time cards for him, and then he'd take them back and return them. And he was, they were so proud of his work. AK: And did they know that he was illiterate? Or did he always keep that a secret? All: He kept it a secret. Alicia Z: So really, all these poor laborers out there had these [gesturing around the table] hoodlums fill out their time cards, probably didn't get paid, probably [all laughing]. Hilda B: No, they got paid, because he told me, He said... Alicia Z: You trusted a little kid to fill out these time cards?! [all laughing] 40 Hilda B: Because my dad had his memory and he never made a mistake and that's why they kept asking him to do it. He cried every single time. He had the feeling he didn't want to do it because he knew he would, and we were okay to help him. But it was like, he cried every time they asked him. Iram Z: He never made a mistake. Maria N: I mean, we weren't sure what we were putting on. I mean, I remember filling it out and I wasn't sure what he was wanting, but I just filled out what he told me [laughs]. Justina Z: Yeah, I just put down what he told me to fill out, then I added it, and he knew exactly what it was supposed to add up to. And if it didn't add up, he'd go, "What? That's not right.". Maria N: And he knew the initials of what it was. Justina Z: Oh, yeah. Maria N: If it was sick leave or annual leave, whatever it was. We didn't know what we were doing. We just fill it out like he said. Hilda B: “On the field,” “On the road,” “On the lamp tending,” whatever it was. Justina Z: 'Cause we were pretty young, and me not understanding the language very well, I still was required to help. But I did the best I could. But yeah, he knew exactly if I made a mistake, he says, "That's not right. That doesn't add up right." "Okay, where did I mess up?" Hilda B: And at the time, all the families were going through this. Maybe not through the foreman, but where the children were acting as interpreters, whether it was the medical, work, any situation, you know, going to the hospital, "What 41 does that say?" You'd read it and say, "This is where we need to go," or, "This is what they want." "Fill out the forms. You're doing it." Maricella G: You know what, to this day, though, some of the kids are still being the translators for the parents. Hilda B: Mm hm, even today. Maricella G: I run into that situation quite a bit. Justina Z: Yeah, yeah. It's true. Maria N: But I mean, the first time he took those time cards in, for them to get paid, he came home and he says, "Mija, I'm so proud of you." He told that to Tina. He told that to us. I mean, we didn't know what we were doing. We were just filling out like he said, you know. But with our help, he succeeded. AK: And is that what you're talking about off camera with how he'd be like, "Go get the calculator," and make sure it worked? Alicia Z: Oh, yeah, he knew exactly. He knew, but he just likes to double check and wanted us to check our work. So we'd be sitting there. He already had the answer. He'd say, "Okay, mija, what did you get?" And I'd write it down. He'd look, then he'd uncover his answer, and he'd say, “Okay, then we're both correct," [all laugh]. Justina Z: Yeah. He could calculate things in his head. Hilda B: He could, and he needed to because when he came to the United States, he needed to know what money he should have because they tried to shortchange him in some places. And so he knew, if I give you $10 and it's only $5, you better give me $5 back. 42 Alicia Z: That's another form of discrimination that I saw with my parents. My dad always carried and paid with cash. He didn't have any credit cards, didn't even have any checkbooks. He didn't believe in banks, so he'd keep everything at home. He knew exactly to the penny how much money he had. And when we’d go get groceries – and Hilda's right, they would try to shortchange him – and he'd say, "Hey, you're missing X amount," and sure enough. AK: Would they react when he called them on it? Alicia Z: "No, sir, you're right." But then I’d say, "Wait, let me see the receipt." Obviously, we were little kids and they don't think we're paying attention or whatever, but that's how we're raised, to always pay attention. And sure enough, he would never put his money away until you properly counted it, because he did not want people to say, “You got the right change.” He wanted it there, for them to see. Hilda B: I think it might have been cultural, too, as far as not trusting the banks and, you know, the corruption and stuff that he experienced in Mexico, which I think we experience here sometimes, too. But that's another issue. AK: So, growing up, since they came from such a poor background and there was all this struggle, do you feel like that made education extra important to your parents? All: [Emphatically] Yes! [Overlapping agreement] Oh, yeah. Justina Z: I'll tell you, every summer, we dreaded the summer [all nod and agree] — Hilda B: Our summer vacations from school. 43 Justina Z: — because, you know, most kids relax, go on road trips, sunbathe, vacation, go have fun. Our summer was tied up with field work. Cherry picking. Started with cherry picking. Sour cherry picking. [Everyone chimes in at once]. Peaches, tomatoes, string beans, onions. But anyway, he says, "Mijas, if you don't want this kind of a life, you get your education..." Hild B: "Or this is what your job's going to be." Justina Z: "...or this is what you're going to be doing the rest of your life. So as soon as you get a job, you don't have to come here." "We don't?" As soon as I could qualify for a job, I’m out! I took a job. Maricella G: [laughing] We all did. Justina Z: Yeah. In that time, they would have jobs for high school kids, like community summer-type program. Hilda B: Community action programs. Justina Z: So I would apply for those. And I got my first job. I was so happy. Stella T: And I was the next one. Justina Z: They stressed education, education, education. Irma Z: Let me just say something to that. Hilda B: And he said, "No, nobody can take away your skill, your knowledge. You take it with you to the grave." Irma Z: That's exactly what I was going to say. Maricella G: And didn't he used to say knowledge is power as well? Because he said, “People are always going to try to take something from you, but they will 44 never be able to take your knowledge because it's all in here” [points to head]. Stella T: Yep, that's true. Hilda B: You know, my dad had knowledge. He did. He may not have had book knowledge, but he had smarts; smart knowledge. He had life skills. Justina Z: Life skills knowledge. Maricella G:So it's funny, I was relaying this story the other day to my boss because he's getting his master's and we talked about education and I relayed the same exact story. How we grew up, nine girls in a Hispanic family, and our summer vacations were picking cherries. I remember that because that was hard labor. We didn't get to go play and have fun. We were up at 6:00 in the morning. All: Oh no, before that. Maricella G: Before that. We were up before dusk, out by dawn. So that was hard work for us growing up young. Hilda B: And we were like four or five. Maricella G: Yeah, that was our summer vacation. Hilda B: From the time we could walk. Maricella G: So he would instill in all of us, "Mija, if you don't want to do this type of work the rest of your life, get an education. Education, education, education." So we all got our degree. Hilda B: And he would point to the migrants. "This is what you get to do if you don't." Stella T: That was a big eye-awakening. 45 Maricella G: So that was so ironic that this story came up because I talked to my boss about it the other day. Justina Z: And my mom would be out there pregnant with the rest of us, picking cherries. Irma Z: Probably with those two [pointing to Alicia and Arlene]. Maria N: I remember the last time I went picking cherries because I got a job at A&W being a carhop because I didn't want to go do that anymore. And I was probably 13? Hilda B: No, you would have had to be 15 or 16. 'Cause I did, too. Maria N: Uh-uh. Carhop was a young job. Hilda B: I remember doing it too. We were in high school because we had to drive there. Maricella G: Well, I remember her starting about 14/15 because I worked at DDO and I rode my bike to work because it was so close. And I was so happy because I didn't have to go back to the fields. I was a short-order cook, so I'm like, "I'll take it." Hilda B: But I want to add something to that: Again, my dad, because this was our vacation, he joined us, Okay? He took his annual leave during the summer to help us. And as he got older and as he became senior in his job, he started taking winters because the winters are harsh. But in the summers we would get up and go. My mom would get up and make tortillas, burritos – those “horrible meals” that [all laugh]. Alicia Z: "Weren't smelling good." 46 Hilda B: Right, but you know what I mean. We love them. Maria N: Egg and bean tortillas. Hilda B: Yeah, egg and bean tortillas. And that was our lunch. She would get up, make the tortillas, get us ready, and then we would call and go out and clean her, and my dad would get up, haul us there, stay and work. And in his older senior years, he would still get up, drive us there, and come back in time to go to work. And so he never had a break either. So his job was to help. We all pitched in when we could and that was what we did as a family. Justina Z: Yeah, he never had a break. His vacation in the summer was cherry picking with us. Maria N: And when his vacation was up, we still were out there picking ‘til we went back to school. I remember one time, I don't remember who it was, but there was, I think, four of us. He comes and picks us up from cherry picking and he says, "Mijas, que hiciste? What did you do?" We were playing out there in the field. Big mistake. Hilda B: I want to say, you know, yeah we learned how hard it was. And what I remember was – 'cause we started with the cherries and all that stuff. But what I remember was the worst was the summer and picking the peaches, ‘cause they had all those fuzz, and you had to wear long sleeves and it would get on your neck. And then you had, like, this horrible, itchy thing. Maria N: And to this day, I can't have peaches Hilda B: I love peaches, but I think of those every time I have one. Maria N: I don't handle those. 47 Irma Z: I was going to say, to this day – in fact, we were driving to Willard the other day with my daughter and I go, “This used to be the cherry farm." I cherish those days now. I think about them all the time, like, you know, those were our days growing up. And I miss that, but it was... Hilda B: What's wrong with you? Not me [all laugh]. Maricella G: I think she's missing them because of the memories. You know, being out there with family, being out there with Mom and Dad. It's hard work. Justina Z: The camaraderie. There was camaraderie. Hilda B: You know what? There were some friends of my dad's that worked with the railroad, too, and they had nine boys and two daughters. And so they were always playing competition; it was competition. So, yeah, we got to know the families there, too, through the migrant fields. Irma Z: I don't know. I missed those days. I enjoyed it. So I'm probably the only one that did. Maria N: The peaches, I do not. Justina Z: No, because if we didn't move fast enough, he'd be throwing cherries at us [all laughing and chattering]. Hilda B: That's what I was gonna say! Justina Z: Or a tomato at us! Hilda B: Rotten tomato. [Mimes throwing] Boom! [All laugh]. Stella T: I was always on the top of the trees, too. 48 Hilda B: I'll tell you, Alicia and Arlene did not do that, and look at them squirm. But you know what, it grounded us. I think it grounded us to what we needed to do. We learned. AK: So I'm curious: you guys keep talking about how your dad never quit, even when he was old. He always worked so hard. Why was that important to him? Maricella G: Pride, I think. I remember him always telling me how others would feel like they were entitled to certain things, and he would have conversations with my son. He'd say, "Mijo, as long as these two hands can work, I will work and provide for my family. I will not depend on the state or anyone else to help provide for my family. It's these hands." And I will always remember that. Because I don't want to depend. Who wants to depend? I mean, I guess it's a pride thing? But I just remember him saying that all the time. Hilda B: It's a work ethic too, I think. And I think that's been instilled in all of us. I think we've all been able to succeed because of his example. Maricella G: And Mom’s example Hilda B: Mm hm, and Mom’s. Justina Z: I remember when he finally retired, well he's retired now and I'm talking to him and he says, "Hija, people tell me I should do things for fun. What do people do things for fun?" I said, "Dad, people tell me that too. All I know is how to work." He says, "Mija, you and I are a lot alike." I say, "Dad, we are. All I know how to do is work." 49 Hilda B: And you know, it brings up an interesting thing because he didn't take vacations, he really didn't go anywhere. But when he did go places because we went on the train, we went to Mexico to see family and we went to Mexico, or to Sacramento, California, to see family. So we got to ride the train and that was fun. But he asked me – because my husband and I like to travel – he said, "Why do you go there? Why are you going over there? Do you know people there?" In his mind, when you traveled or went on vacation, it was to visit family. "No, we're going because we want to see the place." You know, “We read about it,” and that kind of thing. So that concept was foreign to him. And so he was, "Who are you going to go see?" "I don't know anybody there, Dad." So he didn't know how to have fun. So that's kind of a harsh reality of his life. But it's sad. But you know what? Family was important to him. Work was important to him, right? His ethics were important to him. AK: So I want to hear more stories about that. So tell me more about your memories of Union Station or riding the train. Irma Z: Oh, I'll tell you that one. Yeah. I don't know how old I was, but I remember in our youth – Arlene and Alicia weren't there, because they weren't born yet – but he took us all to Sacramento and we got to ride on the train to Sacramento. I don't know if it was one or two days, but I remember sleeping on the train and it was just a seat that you can lean back. Hilda B: See, this is so strange and foreign to me because I remember being put into these bunks. Yes, and the curtains shut. 50 Irma Z: No, I remember the seat. Hilda B: [To Maricella] You remember the bunks, too? Maricella G: For some reason I do remember that, and I do remember walking from train to train and going through the diner. All: Yes. Yes. I remember that. Maricella G: I loved that. And just relaxing, reclining on the chair and just looking at the rails. Irma Z: I remember reclining. Justina Z: Did you feel like royalty? Irma and Maricella: Yes. Maria N: And then Dad would say, "Quit walking through those cars. We're going to get in trouble." [laughs] Irma Z: And I remember the noise falling asleep and just hearing the train... Hilda B: Yeah, that's what I remember. Justina Z: [Imitating train] Chh-chh, chh-chh... Irma Z: ...and I'm like, "That would be nice to have that again," and just go on a train ride. Hilda B: I'm glad you remembered that, because I thought, I am not making this up. For some reason, I remember them being in kind of an olive green curtain. Maricella G: I don't remember the color, but I do remember when you see it on TV or in a movie and they show it and you're like, "Oh, my gosh. I remember that.". Hilda B: Okay, see, I'm not going crazy. 51 Maricella G: But the thing that I remember the most is walking from cart to cart and walking through the diner. All: I remember that [overlapping chatter]. Stella T: And I remember sitting there looking outside the windows and the noise of the train. Chh-chh, chh-chh. And that's when we went to Mexico, and I came back with a big old afro [all laughing]. Hilda B: I remember that too. Justina Z: My mom had always wanted to go see my grandma, her mother, because it'd been years, and I think it was between the seventh and eighth grade that we went. I forget the year, but that's when we went, or just before that. Stella T: It was before. Justina Z: We went to Mexico to visit my grandma, and it took us two weeks to get there. Stella T: Right. Hilda B: Really, that long? Justina Z: Yeah, and my dad let us go because his mother was going to go with us. So he let us go, so he let my mom go. But we took a train – two weeks to get there. Stella T: Yes. Justina Z: But when I was there, I do remember the curtains, I do remember the separate area, and just thinking, "Wow, this is the life." And being able to go into the diner to eat. And I thought, "This is really cool." The problem was, 52 we were on limited money, so we could only get what we could. But I just thought, "Wow, this is the life." Irma Z: It was fun. Hilda B: And that was a benefit of the railroad employees to do that. And so it would have been nice had we had more opportunities. But I only remember the Sacramento one. I don't know if we did any other ones. Irma Z: I remember the Sacramento. And I don't remember the rooms; I just remember sitting in the chair and it laying back. Maria N: I remember the sceneries. Maricella G: Reclining on the chairs and just looking out the window and just seeing everything go by and hearing the tracks. Hilda B: You know, I remember it so well that I wish we'd had that same thing in Union Station, that same opportunity that I would take my grandkids on. I have taken them on the Frontrunner so they can kind of get an experience, because I've talked to them about doing this when we were younger and they’d see it on TV. It would be a nice experience for people. 'Cause this is, this is our history in Ogden, the station, the Union Station. Irma Z: I told my daughter if that would come back, we'd go on a train ride. I loved it. Hilda B: Mm hm, definitely. Justina Z: We didn't have the money to do much of anything, so that trip was very special. And I remember the hustle bustle in the Union Station. And the conductors, and.. All: All aboard! [Laughing] 53 Justina Z: It was just an amazing time for me because, again, it was like a special treat. And it was because of the benefit my dad had to be able to ride free, but otherwise we wouldn't have been able to have done that. I remember thinking how special that whole experience in Union Station was; The hustle and bustle of conductors going back and forth, you know, just neat, neat experience. Maria N: Because it wasn't like we could do it every year, because he had to accrue the bonus points or time or whatever. So it was very, very special. All: Mm-hmm. AK: So I'm curious, with the dining cars, were the meals included in your ticket, or did you have to pay for them separately? Justina Z: I think we had to pay. Stella T: Pay for it separately. AK: Do you guys remember what the menus were like? Maricella G: Oh, pfft, I don’t. I just remember going through the diner and I thought, "This is cool." Justina Z: Yeah. And we got to experience the American food because we, it was always Mexican. And at that time, we got tired of beans and rice [all laughing]. So to be able to eat something different, it was really a treat. It was special. And it's interesting because now I cherish beans and rice. Hilda B: You know what, we have them almost every day. Every day. Jalapenos every day. 54 Justina Z: Yeah. But back in the day, that's what we grew up on: Beans and rice. And we got tired of it. Maricella G: It’s crazy, I will take that for lunch every now and again and people, "Oooh, where'd you get that?" and I say, "I made it." "No way!" AK: That's so true. And now there's so many Mexican food restaurants. Everybody loves Mexican food. Maricella G: But we make it ourselves. We make it homemade and everything. And they're just like, "You made it yourself?" AK: Yeah, yeah. It’s fancy. Hilda B: You know, it's good to have those memories, but there were a couple of incidents that were... disastrous. And Tina and Stella can talk some – and so can Irma – about the accidents that he had. Justina Z: Oh, the accident that he had that I recall was: he'd been off site for work, and I think it was at Promontory Point, and he stayed there with a couple other people, housing during the week and coming home on the weekend. But anyway, he said he'd been cooking on a hot-burning, wood-burning stove, and something about the gas or something. Stella T: It was the oil. Justina Z: Yeah. Something about it happened that the oil or the gas exploded and it blew him. And he went out running, he's in flames. My uncle Juanillo was with him, and my dad's running was going to jump into the Great Salt Lake. My Uncle Juanillo grabbed him with a blanket and they fell onto the ground, 55 put him out. But my dad got burned from the right side all the way down. And his hand ended up shriveled, his little finger like that. Hilda B: And you could even see his bones. Justina Z: Oh, yeah. Yeah. But anyway, he got into that accident, and what I remember is that when we heard about it, it was really traumatic. But the thing that comes to mind is that when they brought him into this car, maybe it was an ambulance, and we went over there to say goodbye to him because they were taking him to San Francisco to a burn facility. But I can just hear him in the background just groaning and moaning. And my dad was a strong person, he doesn't let emotion. But I remember him in a lot of pain. And I was just crying and my mom was crying. It's… I just remember his hand black. Black. Irma Z: And he had scars. I did not know that he had a scar on his abdomen from that burn until he passed away because I helped dress him for the funeral. And I noticed that he had burns on his arm, his finger, his side of the body and his legs. And he never wore shorts because of that. Hilda B: He always generally wore long sleeves. AK: Was he still able to work after that? Hilda B: Oh yeah. Justina Z: He was in rehab for several months. I don't remember how long he was at the hospital, but he was there for a while. Stella T: Oh, yeah. 56 Hilda B: Correct me if I'm wrong, and I don't know if this is a story that I heard or we talked about it. They didn't want to pay for that time that he was in the hospital because they didn't think that was part of work. Justina Z: I remember that because he got an attorney to help him with it. Hilda B: Yes, 'cause they said it wasn't part of the work, but that's where they were stationed and that's what they provided for them to keep warm and eat and cook. Instead, something was wrong with the equipment. But it seems to me that was an unfortunate part of this, too. Justina Z: Yeah, that's true, because I remember they looked for an attorney to help them with that. And I do remember that attorney helped my dad get that covered. Irma Z: And the second one, I don't even remember how old I was. I guess it was '76 so I was probably about 16. I don't remember the accident, but I just heard that he had gotten thrown from the train. Something happened, I think they must've collided. Two of them must've collided and he got thrown out and he ended up going to the hospital. And I remember going to the hospital to see him. And I just remember at McKay, they had wards at that time, and he came out of the ward and his face was all swollen and I just ran out of there going, "That's not my dad." And I was crying and I ran away because his face was so swollen. Justina Z: It wasn't a train. It was one of those carts. Maricella G: Yeah, I thought that was the carts too. Irma Z: No, it was a derailment because he got thrown out. 57 Hilda B: That's what I remember. Justina Z: Because there was another one with those cars. Maricella G: I think so too. The one that you had to [pumps hands up and down]. Justina Z: I forget what they're called. AK: Are they called hand cars? Justina Z: Yeah, the hand cars. Yeah. There was one with that, too, but I don't remember... Stella T: Is that the one where he crushed his finger? Maricella G: Maybe. Alicia Z He's had a few accidents on the railroad. He did have a crushing finger accident in 1983. See, although that was one of the ones that I was too little, I wasn't born [all laugh]. AK: Did they have a workman's comp for his job at that time, where he could get compensation for some of those injuries? Hilda B: I think he got compensation. I don't remember. I was too young back then. Stella T: I don't remember either. Hilda B: That was before we knew about work stuff. So now we know, and we would've... Justina Z: Yeah, that was before I knew anything about anything. Hilda B: But we survived, so he must've gotten a paid workman's comp or something. That's a good question. AK: How old were you guys when he retired then? Hilda B: Was that '96? I'm thinkin '96. He was 62. What year would that be? 58 Maria N: I thought he was 65 when he retired. Hilda B: No, 62. He took the first he could. Maricella G: It would be '94, because if he's born in '32, and if he retired at 62, that'd be '94. Hilda B: Okay, and I helped him through that process. But I'll tell you, that was another sad situation. Well, the Southern Pacific had been incorporated into another railroad... Justina Z: Union Pacific. Hilda B: ...the Union Pacific. And so he had saved his annual leave because now he was senior. He could save it and take it off during the winter because it was harsh. And I remember him coming home the December before, and he was hobblin' and it broke my heart when I saw him hobbling because his knees, I mean, probably these accidents, arthritis, I don't know. He carried his lunch box – which we still have that. You could see the lunch box – and he was hobbling into the door and I was cleaning the driveway from the snow and I looked and he's hobbling. And it made, sad. I choked up thinking my dad worked hard all his life. This is going to be the last time he ever has to do this. He was saving his annual leave to get a payout, and we filled out the paperwork. He came home one day and said, "They're not going to pay me for that leave that I've got." And I says, “What?” By then I was working for the federal government and I knew what the rules were. I knew how to help him. And I said, "Don't worry, Dad." And he was crying because they said, you know, "They're doing this. Why are they doing this?" I don't know why 59 they did that. Maybe they were going through more hard times. I don't know. I found out what the phone number to the headquarters' Brotherhood of Maintenance, and I called them in Texas, talked to the Union leader and told them what had happened, how long he had been there. They opened a case and the end result was that he did get paid for that annual. And they were so upset with him. I mean, you know, through his retirement, after 40-some years, he should have been enjoying it. We did celebrate his retirement. We did celebrate him. But it was like... Maria N: What was it, 43 years when he retired? Hilda B: I don't know how many but it was over 40 years – 42, 43. And I thought that was a sad thing. I mean, it... Mixed things. It was so good that he was able to bring us here with the railroad, but in the end it was going away, and it's sad that that's kind of what his last memory was of them. But overall, he enjoyed the people he worked with. He got to do things. Justina Z: It gave him community. Hilda B: Yes, he's raised his family on this income. But, you know, when he retired, it wasn't much more than 40,000. At that time, that's really not that much, and I looked at that and I thought, "Wow," because I was probably making that much or more after just starting my career. Justina Z: But he was proud because he felt like he had done well. Hilda B: Yes, and he did. Justina Z: And he was able to provide for his family. And not only that, not only did he provide for his family, but he helped his brothers. 60 All: Yeah, yes. Justina Z: He helped his mother. He gave his mother a monthly allowance. Sometimes when she needed extra money, he gave her the last $5 he had. And we went with that, but we didn't recognize that we were going without. Hilda B: ‘Cause my mother made everything from scratch. AK: I love that. You mentioned that the railroad gave your dad a sense of community. Would you tell me what you mean by that? Justina Z: Because there were other Latinos that were part of that railroad community. That's who worked there. They were the worker bees. The Caucasians were their... What were they called? Stella T: Big bosses. Justina Z: Bosses, but they had a title… Uh, Foremen. And so the Latinos were the worker bees and the laborers. And they were the ones that connected with each other. They shared their stories and supported one another. And they also had their disagreements. Irma Z: And they actually were friends after. Justina Z: Yeah. Irma Z: Like, my dad knew everybody in the community that worked at the railroad. Justina Z: And my dad was a jokester. He was a people person. Hilda B: Very charismatic. Justina Z: Yeah, charismatic. Extremely charismatic. I mean, you would meet him, you would be his friend [snaps] just like that. 61 AK: Did the wives and the families of railroad workers create their own little community as well? Justina Z: Yes. Hilda B: They all knew each other. Everybody invited everybody to everybody's house. And if you knew about something going on, they would reach out, say, "Hey, we're going. Are you going?" So. Justina Z: They did do that. Hilda B: But it was because of the railroad. If they didn't have the railroad, they wouldn't count on each other. Justina Z: Yeah, that was the community I was talking about. Hilda B: Yeah. Justina Z: Yeah, they did do that. AK: Are there any other stories or even just points you want to make that would be important to know about Hispanic history on the railroad? Maricella G: Yeah. I don't know. Just that it was hard work. AK: And the fact that your dad became a foreman was obviously a big deal, then, if it was mostly a Caucasian job. All: Mm hm Maria N: I think that one would, you would, I would probably ask Arlene on that question because she definitely knows more of that side. AK: Yeah, absolutely. Maricella: [To Alicia] Do you know anything? Alicia Z: I was so young [everyone laughs]. 62 Stella T: She was too young. Hilda B: You know, one of the things that I would like to say – and I think I mentioned it and that you guys kind of agreed with that: The railroad is part of our history. And I see that they're looking at gentrification or moving and building around it and maybe doing away with it, and I hope they don't because it is a historical site. To me, that's what made Ogden Ogden and West Ogden – that's where a lot of the Hispanics went to live, but it all kind of started there. I would like to see, because I've gone to the museum and it does show some of them, but they don't show very many of the Hispanics that were there, or maybe they just forgot about them, I don't know. But to have a way to travel, I think, I don't want it to take two weeks to go somewhere, but it would be nice to have something like that to go to the mountains or something, because I know there's other cities that have those trails and stuff. Not the Frontrunner. The Frontrunner is nice, but it's not the same. Maricella G: The Frontrunner is to get from point A to point B. The railroad is a scenic route to get from point A to point B. Hilda B: To travel and to see everything. Maricella G: Instead of getting on a plane, you get on a train. AK: It’s an experience Hilda B: Yes, it is an experience. Justina Z: Because you get on a train, you can enjoy our beautiful country. Because we have a beautiful country, because people go overseas to go see those 63 countries. And I'm thinking, but the United States is a beautiful country, and we need to take time to enjoy it. Hilda B: I mean, I think you go to the Timpanogos or to Bear Lake or something like that is the place to see. And that would help Utah's economy too, to look at it that way and incorporate the Utah scenes. I think that would be an experience I would do. Irma Z: I, for one, would do that. Justina Z: Like have a train run to Zion's National Park. How beautiful would that be? Hilda B: Or to the reservations in southern Utah... [overlapping agreement]. Yeah, and spend time there. I think that would be nice, too. AK: That would be amazing. Alicia Z: Can you make that happen? [All laugh] AK: [laughing] I was going to say that's not my job, but I will try. Hilda B: Or even to Vernal. I mean, look, we have our dinosaur park there. That's a sight to see. And so those would be really nice points to visit, to use a train to say, "This is our history." Justina Z: Our historic sites. Hilda B: This is our history. Yeah. These are things that we...Antelope Island! They could take them to Antelope Island to see the buffalo. Maria N: But it's been brought up that they're talking about doing away with the Union Station. And that would be horrible to get rid of because it is a historic building and it is part of 25th Street. [Overlapping chatter] The whole 25th. And that's where the tourist traps are for Ogden. That would be horrible. 64 Hilda B: They've had a farmers market, too. AK: Well, if it helps, actually, Ogden City wanted me to let everybody know that they're not getting rid of Union Station; That that’s a rumor, it's not going to happen, and actually--- All: Oh, good [overlapping agreement]. Hilda B: What are they doing with those apartments that I read about in the Standard Examiner recently? AK: So I don't know much about that. What I have been told – just because I am on the history end of this – is they're for sure going to preserve Union Station. They actually are wanting to create a little building off the side of the Union Station that can be the visitor center / museum so that way the Station can go back to being a train station and a historic building. So they are going to try to redirect at least the Frontrunner into the Union Station and then also just preserve it as a historic building since it wasn't made to be a museum. And then that whole campus area, they have a company called Design Workshop coming to help with city planning and restoration around the Union Station. So, that’s about all I’ve heard. But moving on with the next question: what can the community do to keep Union Station relevant for future generations? Irma Z: I would like to see them bring the trains back. Justina Z: Yeah, I think so too. Maria N: Are they. Are they using the little hall for like receptions or something? Hilda B: Oh, that was the other thing. 65 Maria N: You know, because my understanding, and I've heard that it's very limited now and the pricing is enormous, so a lot of people haven't had a chance to use them. AK: I don't know about the pricing, to be honest, I do know that they want to keep it as a community center and a place where people can come to Ogden and gather and celebrate that kind of stuff. But yeah, I don't know about pricing. Irma Z: I support the train station. I'd go for a ride. Hilda B: Who's gone to their farmer's markets? Overlapping: I have. Maria N: I did when I was here. Hilda B: Who's gone to the museum? Justina and Maricella: Hilda B: I think I've been once or twice. I've gone and sittin' in on their Southern Pacific trains that are out there. We actually took a picture of us out there. AK: Really? Hilda B: Yeah. Who has that? Maricella G: I have it on email. Hilda B: I think I have it, but I don't know what date it was.. Maricella G: That was, goll, three or four years ago? Yeah. All of us on the train. Hilda B: In honor of our dad. And I have pictures of my grandson on it, too. I tell them about it. It was a hard life. Maria N: I think it should continue to go. I mean, it's history, you know? 66 AK: Absolutely. Yeah. Just wrapping up, I want to hear more about what you feel the community can do to keep Union Station relevant as a train station. Irma Z: If they brought that back, I'd be the first one to sign up and go on a vacation. AK: Absolutely. Do you guys have any thoughts on that? Maricella G: Oh, I think to bring back the hustle and bustle of the train station, I think it would be great. Justina Z: I do, too. AK: How come? How would that keep it relevant for future generations? Maricella G: Well, because people would… just like us, our family, passed down stories to our kids about the train station, about our father. They would eventually hear these stories and pass them on to their kids, take them to the train station, "Look, your great grandpa worked at the railroad station. Look, your great grandpa used to take his kids to California,” or whatever. That is something that you can have passed down from generation to generation to generation. Irma Z: I've already told my daughter about it. Justina Z: Experience a train ride. Hilda B: But yeah, that's what I was thinking for anybody, even to experience the train ride, ‘cause that is part of our history. Promontory Point is where the Golden Spike was put, and that's where they came together. And we read about that and hear about that in our history classes. But how many people get a chance to ride the train? Everybody's flying or everybody driving. 67 Maria N: The major transportation right now is flying. That would be so cool to open up another avenue for traveling. Justina Z: Mhm. Like California has a train that runs north and south. And I was in Los Angeles for work one time. My daughter was living in San Diego, and I thought, "I want to go see them." So I wasn't working that weekend, so that Friday, I took the train into San Diego and the scenery was beautiful. And just to experience that train ride brought back memories. It's so cool. Hilda B: I do think it would be important for people to have this train. I mean, because they have one in... What is the one in Heber Creek? Heber Creeper. I mean, people made their vacations around that. "I'm going to take my grandkids," and you have to sign up like six months in advance to do it. And so it would be nice to have something like that local. Maria N: The Polar Express. Hilda B: Yeah. But to see the sceneries and go to different places, I think they can make it too, like I said. Maria N: That's why I says that it would be a good other avenue for traveling. Maricella G: Okay, here's something just-off-the-wall. A song just came to mind. [Singing] I've been working on railroad, all the livelong day. Remember that? I've been working on the railroad, just to pass the time away. That’s my Dad. All: Yeah [murmurs of agreement]. All singing: [Unison] All the livelong day. I've been working on the railroad, just to pass the time away. [Overlapping chatter, some singing, some speaking]. Hilda B: That could be your theme song. 68 AK: I love that idea. Hilda B: Yeah, that'd be your, your theme song for this history thing. Maricella G: Oh, there you go. AK: Actually, I love that song. I grew up with that one too, so. Maria N: Yeah, that would be my dad. AK: Do you have anything else that you guys would like to add in closing? Maricella G: Just that I'm so proud of my parents [choking up]. All: Yes Hilda B: Yeah, me too. I do have something to add because I think about what they came here for: It was a big sacrifice for them to leave their country, to leave their language, to leave their family, to leave the people that they grew up with, to a foreign land. How many people do you know that would do that? Justina Z: To leave what they knew. Hilda B: To leave what they knew and their customs. And my mom didn't know a lot about these electrical equipments that they had here. She had to learn a lot of this stuff. One of my first memories of her, she brought her metate with her from home. It's from Mexico. Do you even know how heavy that is? Have you ever picked one up? Irma Z: It's heavy. [All] It's heavy. Hilda B: And this is the other… [pointing] it's a molcajete, and that's how she would grind her peppers. That's how she would grind her corn to make meal. And that was one of my very first memories of her. But my mom and my dad both left their country to come here for the promise of a better opportunity 69 for their future. Reminds me of Abraham and Sarah leaving the country for the promised land. But anyway, that was a sacrifice they did. That hat over there behind you was the hat that my dad brought, and it's got a wide brim to keep the sun off your back as you work out in the fields and stuff. Stella T: To give us a better life. Hilda B: To give us a better life. Stella T: All of us. Hilda B: All of us. And I asked one day and nobody answered me, "Who of you would leave your country to go do this for your family?" if everything was diminished here. That is a... Justina Z: Having been overseas and then coming back here, it would be a huge sacrifice because it is so different. People don't realize the opportunities they have here. The rights they have here than in any other country you do not have. My last overseas trip with the military, I remember coming back to Camp LeJeune. I saw that flag flying. I dropped to my hands and knees and said, "Thank you, God, thank you, God, for bringing Dad here." I would have never, ever experienced this country for what it is. Hilda B: Even to practice our religion. I mean, even in this city, this state that was predominantly of the predominant religion, they were able to practice our religion. We all went to Catechism, we're all Christian, and in those countries that you visited, and I visited, you can't. Justina Z: You cannot express your opinion. You have to just comply. Otherwise, you're in deep trouble. 70 Irma Z: I think being in the military and going to a different country to serve your country and then come back, I got called to serve for Desert Storm. So I went to Germany and on the way home, they played God Bless America [choking up]. And to this day, I praise my mom and dad for the life that they gave us, and I salute that flag every time. Hilda B: But I ask you, which one of you would leave your country of origin if this was diminishing to go to another country? They did. Maricella G: I don't know if I would. Alicia Z: I think we would have to. Maricella G: I'd have to– Hilda B: Well, they did. Maricella G: –I wouldn’t want to Hilda B: They didn't want to. Alicia Z: Well, you asked if we would, but [all laughing]? Maria N: But see, we served in the military – Tina, Irma, and I. And I mean, it upsets me to see our own people destroying our flag. And I mean, I praise that flag, and I will bow to that flag because I served my country for it. Hilda B: That's where it's different, yes, that's where we're different. Justina Z: Yes, it represents freedom to me. It's close to my heart. Maria N: It's close to my heart too. Justina Z: It represents what I believe in, and I cherish that. 71 Hilda B: That's where it's different for me and you, because the flag is a symbol. It is a piece of fabric. What it symbolizes you cannot destroy. You cannot destroy. And that's what's different in America. We have the right to burn that. I can't take it away from you because that's your opinion, if that's what you want to do. All I can do is respect that opinion, but. Maricella G: And, you know, understand what it stands for. Hilda B: That's what America is about. Maricella G: Understanding what it stands for [overlapping chatter]. Working for the military my whole career, and then traveling overseas with the military, every time the national anthem is played, I get teary-eyed. My son served in the military as well. He's out; He works as an athletic trainer. So he's out there on the football field, every time they play the national anthem, not only do I get teary eyed, he salutes it. It doesn't matter if he's not in the military anymore. He served. So he will salute the flag any time it is played or visible and they play the national anthem. And he also brings tears to my eyes when he does that, because it means so much to me when I’m out of the country. Hilda B: [Overlapping chatter] What I'm saying is this is America. This is why we have the greatest country, is, we have the diversity, the opposite views. You know, some don't respect it. Some do respect it. Alicia Z: Well, the point is, we're thankful for Mom and Dad. Hilda B: Yes, yes. They came to this country because we would not be even be able to have this discussion about this. And we've been to those countries. I've 72 been to Muslim lands where you can't speak. In fact, you have to wear your turbans to work and stuff and you can't even show your face sometimes. We are blessed in America. We are blessed that my dad made that trek. We are blessed that my mom made that trek, we are blessed to be part of the American history. And I was going to tell you, my dad did want to become an American citizen. We were doing the ESL for him and he struggled, so he gave it up. But I found out that you could do an oral exam and he was at that point where he could do it. He was ready. We were filling' out the paperwork. He and my mom were going to do it. And I remember I was saddened when he said, "I can't do it," because of one statement on that application, it said, "Do you renounce your citizenship with Mexico?" He said, "That's denying who I am," and he couldn't do it for that reason. And it broke my heart that he couldn't do it. And I didn't know you had to renounce who you were, your Mexican citizenship, your culture, your language, all that. And he felt horrible. That broke his heart. He says, "I want to, I'm going to be buried here." And he wanted to be a citizen, but he couldn't sign it for that reason. My mom didn't do it because he didn't do it. But it was later on that I found out they changed it, 'cause Tina became a citizen and she had to renounce... Stella T: So did I. Hilda B: ...Renounce their... They were okay with it because they grew up in America – they were grown there, but they didn't live their life there. And... It was sad that he didn't do it. But now we found out that you can have dual 73 citizenship. He would have loved to have had dual citizenship. In fact, I'm looking at maybe becoming a dual citizen because as a first generation, from your parents, you can do it. And I'm not doing it because I... I love my country. I'm a citizen throughout, and I understand the Constitution and the amendments, all that. I just want to do it to honor their and our heritage. And I don't see why we can't have dual citizenship because I am both. I am my father's daughter, I am my mother's daughter, and I love my history. I mean, you look around my house and you can see that I celebrate some of their, their traditions. Justina Z: [01:44:49] Just like with me. I've gotten to the point where I'm proud of my skin color. And I'm proud to say I'm Mexican. Hilda B: I can speak English and Spanish. Justina Z: Yeah. And I finally understand the language. It didn't click for me until I was in college. It's like the light came on. Before that, the dictionary was my life. Because it seems like once I understood that it meant something, in this sentence, it meant something different than this one, then, "Oh, my gosh, I'm so confused." In college, it all clicked. Hilda B: And not only that, I think all cultures have something to offer everybody. We're made in the image of God. He made us to share. He made us so that we can talk to each other, and we can be here. He's going to call people from all nations. So anyway, that's my thoughts. Justina Z: But like you said in closing with... I don't know which of my sisters said it: I'm proud my parents came here. 74 All: And I am too. Justina Z: I wouldn't be who I am if they hadn't come here. I don't think I would have had these sisters had they not come here. Hilda B: Yeah. We might not have been here. Stella T: Yeah, cause it was just me and Tina and little Olga. Hilda B: And I think I shared this with you: when I was working for the federal government, I helped with documentation of taxes and stuff. I worked for the IRS, and I would actually talk to taxpayers out there and they would tell me, "Oh, I have to have that money because I'm going to be sending it to my family and my wife in Mexico." And I'm going, "What? Okay, I'm showing that you have family here." "Well, yeah, this is my other wife, but my first wife..." [All laugh] And I'm thinking, "What?" Well, they chose to leave that family there, and they made another family here. Polygamist? Yes. Or whatever you want to call it. What is that called? Maricella G: Bigamy. Hilda B: Bigamy or whatever. But for their reason, that's how they lived. My father could have done that, and I recognize that. But he chose not to. He loved my mother. He's bringing her to America. He's bringing the family that he established. Maricella G: He sacrificed everything to bring them. Yeah. Hilda B: I may not even have been born had he done that. These guys [motioning around the table], these six younger ones may not have been born had he chosen to do what other people did. So I'm grateful that he did. 75 AK: I love that, and I love that you had mentioned how much your dad loved your mom. All: Yeah. AK: And just that love that they had for each other through all the struggles and everything. Hilda B: You know, we did have struggles growing up. Tina mentioned stuff, that why she said she was afraid growing up; We had some trauma. However, in the end, the last words that my mother said to us when she passed was, it wasn't about herself, it was for my dad. "Take care of your father. Love him. Visit him. Take care of him. Promise me." That's what she said. Justina Z: Well, I remember asking her, I says, "Mom, if you're really tired," – ‘cause she was so sick – Maria G: 'Cause she was so afraid of leaving' him. Justina Z: – I said, "Mom, if you're tired, don't hang around for me. Don't hang around for Dad." She says, “But mija, who will take care of your dad?" I said, "Mom, don't worry about him. We'll take care of him." "Pero mija," says Mom. "I promise you we'll take care of Dad." Maria N: Yeah, she was very afraid of letting go. Hilda B: I said the same thing to her. Maria N: Because she was so afraid that none of us would go see my dad. Justina Z: My mom was so sick, but there came a time period where my dad was not doing well. It was amazing that my mom…roles were reversed. She found the strength to take care of him. I said, "Mom, you're doing really well." 76 "Well, your dad's sick, mija. I need to take care of him." And I thought, "Wow." Hilda B: She would get up – she's got leukemia, she's weak, Okay? I'd go to the house after work or whenever they needed me to pick up some stuff for their medicine. Anyway, she would stand there, oxygen [puts fingers under nose to mimic oxygen tube] coming to an oxygen line, She would be at the gas stove, cooking [all tearfully laughing]. And I said, "What are you doing? Get back!" But it was like, that's how much she cared about making sure my dad was eating. And I thought, "Oh, okay." [All chuckle] Justina Z: And she had nerve damage, too, because the other thing she did is the burners would be on, and she would put her hands on them. I said, "Mother, your hand's going to catch on fire!" [laughs] Irma Z: She didn't feel 'em. AK: Oh my gosh, because of the leukemia? Justina Z: Nerve damage. AK: Nerve damage from her illness? Justina Z: All her illnesses. And it's about that time that we looked for someone to come in and cook for them because we couldn't. Hilda B: I brought stuff to them at least twice a week. Justina Z: Yeah. Hilda B: Steve and I would make stuff and take it. 77 Justina Z: But I worked in West Valley, but I'd come visit them, but I couldn't be there every day to help them cook. But yeah, so we hired somebody to come in and cook for them towards the end. Hilda B: It was towards the end, very, the last... Justina Z: Well, that's when I realized her hands were almost on the burner. And I said, "You can't cook anymore, Mom." Hilda B: Yeah. So we were able to pull for her. Stella T: This is how it was with my mom. I was willing to take her in because I was retired. I was willing [tearing up, crying] to take her. But she wouldn't come with me because she didn't want to leave my father. And that's why she... Hilda B: Mm hm and he wasn't going to leave his house. Stella T: He was not going to leave the house so she did not come with me. So she preferred to stay with him. Hilda B: And get blown up [laughs] I'm just joking. Justina Z: So, that in itself shows the love and care they had for each other. Although it was different than what I thought love should be, they had their own way of showing love. Hilda B: And one of the memories that I have, too, is when they were going to the hospital, and I had taken them in – this was when she was walking still, 'cause at the end she got a wheelchair, and he didn't want me to put her in the wheelchair. But anyway, she wouldn't go in the wheelchair. He didn't want her to because she'd hold his hand. But even in their last years, they were holding hands. And I wish I had my camera then. They're walking 78 down the hallway and it was almost alone. And I can see them walking, walking. And I'm behind them, and I'm thinking, "That is so sweet." Justina Z: That was so touching because– Hilda B: It was very touching to me, and I wish I had a camera because I don't know if I didn't have a cell phone back then. Justina Z: No we didn't. Hilda B: But I have my memory of them walking down the hallway holding hands. Justina Z: But we didn't see very many signs of affection. I mean, we knew it was there, but the holding hands. Hilda B: But I think of them at the beginning, that's how it must have been when they came into the country, holding hands, holding onto each other. "We can do this together." And I'll tell you, when it hit me: my husband and I went to Morocco. We were in Rabat. All the language was of the script. We got lost. We couldn't read it. All the buildings were the same. That's the first time I realized what it must have been like for them to come to a country with a language that they could not speak, they could not read. They didn't know their way around. And my husband and I were holding our hands so tight, and I thought, "I can't." This is what my mom and my dad experienced. And for the first time, I understood the sacrifice. I mean, I knew it, but I felt this is what they felt like. Terrified. AK: So I am really curious: So four of you either worked for the military or were military spouses, or worked for the government. I'm curious, does that have something to do with how your parents raised you to think about America or 79 because of the struggles that you watched them go through? Why did you guys join? Irma Z: I joined because I wanted to. I couldn't join until after I got a bachelor's degree in nursing. And I told my mom and dad that I was going to join the military, and they were so against it because they said, "What happens if something happens to you?" And I'm like, "Mom, I want to serve my country." And I signed up without their approval. And then when I got called up, my mom was really sad. And somebody sent me a video of that Christmas – because it was over Christmas. I got called up on December 9th and didn't come back until April. And that Christmas, I guess everybody got together and somebody videotaped it. And I looked at my mom and I go, "Why is my mom so sad?" She was so sad in this video [tearing up] and I looked at the tape and I realized it was the Christmas that I was... Stella T: Gone. Irma Z: Gone. And that's why I got in the military, because I wanted to serve my country and my mom and dad didn't want me to. Hilda B: You know, I think we all served... I don't know why we went into the government, but I think it was because maybe we dealt with them, and growing up, I know we had to maneuver through the system, through the IRS, how to file your taxes. I remember once – and I was probably 10 or 11 when he filled out his tax return. He'd sent it in and knocked on the door, and two people were there and they were asking about his tax return and all these exemptions he was claiming. And they were all daughters. And they 80 had us line up because they didn't believe anybody would have nine daughters. And so we all lined up and I'm thinking, "Who are these people?" So I always remember that, thinking, "Why are they doing this?" It's because, I guess they had to make sure that he was paying his taxes. And so it made me interested with the government. I don't know. That might be why I went to the IRS. I don't know. Maybe it was because I tested and I wanted to find out more. But it has opened my eyes to the inequities, but also to our Constitution and all that. And I remember they were surprised that we were all lined up, we were all lined up, they made us tell our name and the birth date and the exemption matched his tax return. Maricella G: And as for me, I kind of fell into working for the government. But then when I married my husband, he was in the military. He had just graduated college and became an officer in the United States Army. And my dad was awfully proud of that, I guess, cause he was happy that we were in America. And so he was awfully proud of my husband being an officer in the United States Army. And then when my son joined the Coast Guard, of course, I gave him a picture of him in his... we call it the bus driver hat and his dress blues, whatever. And he was very proud of that as well. He says, "That's mi..." My son, "Mi, mijo..." Calls my son. Very proud of both my husband and my son being in their dress blues or their uniform in a picture displayed in his living room. So he was proud of those two representing America. Hilda B: I wanted to add something. Okay, she said, my dad called everybody mijo. He would call us mijos too [all laughing]. Didn’t he? 81 All: Yes Hilda B: In fact, we were known as the Hijas, by our family, “Hijas de Ción.” And actually, there's another story: It was almost a derogatory term because they didn't think my dad would be able to take care of all of us. But he did, through... I don't know. Through grit and sacrifice. We were called Hijas de Cion, and I was proud to be an Hija de Cion. He was my father and I was proud. And when we did his funeral, I said, “We are the Hijas of Cion and we're proud of it." Because they always meant it to be a derogatory term-type. And I said, "No, I'm proud of that." Irma Z: And we have a shirt that says, "Hijas de Cion y Carmen". AK: So why did he call you guys his sons? Hilda B: [All laughing] You know what? I guess 'cause he didn't have any, so we were hijos [all laughing]. "Hijo, come here!" He would call it a slip of the tongue. Maria N: Yeah, slip of the tongue. AK: [To Justina and Maria] Do either of you want to talk about your service at all? Maria N: When I went to school and I got a job – the IRS came over to the high school, and they were offering us jobs. And so I applied and I got paid. And so I was working for IRS, and my dad was so proud. All my uncles were proud that I was working for the government. But then I retired with Hill Field and I did join the military and I retired with the military. So my parents were proud that I actually retired with the military, so. 82 Justina Z: I joined because my sister [Maria laughs] and one of her friends convinced me I would be able to travel and have fun [all laughing]. So I kept saying, "No, no, no, no, no." Finally, I did, and I thought, "What did I do?" Maria N: She was mad at me. Justina Z: Well, after 10 years, I was going to get out because I'd had it. Well it so happens that I went on an exercise that I just loved what they had me doing. So I chose that career path and I loved everything that I did with the military up until the time I retired. And so that's how that happened. It was by accident because I didn't know what I was doing, but I retired and I'd loved what I was doing. As far as working for the government: I had applied, I had finished, I went to school at Stevens-Henager’s to become a secretary. That's all I knew women did back then. So I got a certificate of something from Stevens-Henager’s, and I got hired on at Browning Arms. But then I don't... I forgot that I had applied with the state because they were looking for jobs everywhere, so I had applied with the state. Two weeks after I started with Browning Arms, I got a call from the juvenile court, and the lady asked me if I could come in for an interview. And I said, “Well, I just started this new job. I don't think I can.” And she said, "Okay, well, thank you." So I go about my business. I get a call again. They say, "I would really love to interview you." I said, "But I just started this job. I feel guilty asking to go there," because I don't get into town till 5:30 or so. She says, "I'll tell you what, you come in, I'll wait for you." This is on a Friday. So I come in and she shows me around. “This is the State of Utah.” She shows me, and she said, "So 83 when do you wanna start?" I said, "What?" [all laugh] I said, "Is this the interview?" She said, "I saw..." at that time we tested. She said, "I saw your scores. I saw your background. I want you to work for me." So I said, "Okay." So I did quit the other job and I went on working with the state. So that's how that happened. And then I saw what people were doing there, and so I asked my boss and I said, "I want to know what I need to do to advance. I want to be able to advance." She says, "Oh, Tina, I didn't know you were interested." I said, "Why would you think I wasn't interested in advancing?" He said, "Well, you're woman, you're Mexican, you're Catholic. So we thought you'd probably be quitting once you got married. Well, you didn't, but then we thought you're going to quit when you have your first child. But you haven't." And I said, "Well, because I want to know what I can do to advance my career." He said, "Well, you need a four-year degree." And I said, "Anything in particular?" He says, "No. We want diversity. Whatever you want." So I went to college and when I graduated, it so happened that the lady that hired me was retiring within that month. So I was able to move into a position and that's how I ended up in government. And from then – because out of necessity, I got a part time job with IRS; Seasonal, which worked out good because I could work part-time. And then I retired from my state job with the idea that I was going to go active duty with the military on my off time with IRS. So that's how I worked that out. It was seasonal with IRS. When I was laid off, I'd go military. And during that time, I'd also applied for a position with the immigration court. Forgot all about it. So I'm in the Dominican and I get an email. "Hey, we'd like to interview you." And I thought, 84 "What is this job for?” 'Cause I forgot. And so he writes me and tells me. I said, "Okay, but I'm on active duty right now." He says, "Well, will you be coming into town?" I said, "Not till September, October timeframe." He said, "Well, okay." I said, "So I'm going to have to turn it down." I get an email three months later: "Hey, I'm still interested in interviewing you when you..." And I said, "Oh my gosh, I'm still not out." He said, "I'll tell you what, if you're interested, we're willing to wait." So he held the position open for me, and I was going to come visit. So when I came to visit, I went in for the interview. Then I get called, I meet him later on, he says he would like to hire me and he's gonna hold the position open for me. So I started with Immigration Court October 2007 and I've been there since. So it's all, like... AK: It all kind of came together. Justina Z: Uh huh Hilda B: You know, I couldn't remember why I got into the IRS, but it was a seasonal thing. It was the seasonal. I wanted to work seasonal because we were going to get ready to have a family and I wanted to be able to be here. And so I did that and I got hired and my husband has since gone there and that was his second job. But Tina mentioned something about our families. There were three policemen in our family, government workers, military. These were all, in my dad's view, respectable, honorable positions, working for the government, upstanding. And he lived vicariously through us. You know, I heard later that he says [gasp] he was bragging about us, and I didn't know that. But people would say, “Oh, your Dad said that you were 85 duh-duh-duh-duh at IRS. You were duh-duh-duh-duh and so-and-so's in the military. He's so proud of you guys.” He really never – He did later on, he would say he was proud of us, but he had a hand in that, in that he made sure we got our education. Always reinforced that. And we all have pretty decent careers. Some of us are retired now. Justina Z: And I believe we all have a very strong work ethic, and that was instilled by my dad and my mom. Hilda B: Yes, my mom never wasted. Okay, she repurposed, like I repurpose stuff. Maricella G: That's what I do. Hilda B: [Laughing] Who... I mean, I will take something and make it new. I mean, I could walk around… But anyway, I think we all do that. We all probably grow our garden. We all worked overtime. We all went to school. Every single one of us have gone to college, except only two have got an associate's. The rest have either bachelors, and I think three have master's. Stella T: She and Alicia and... Irma Z: Arlene, just the two. Hilda B: [Points at Justina] I thought you had a master's. Justina Z: [Points back] I thought you did [all laughing]. Hilda B: I thought you had a master's. Justina Z: Well, I started a master's program twice. The first time I needed a couple classes to finish. I had two classes to finish to get my master's degree, and then there was a family situation, so I had to withdraw. A few years later go by, and then there was two others in my same situation. So we decided 86 we're going to go back and finish it up. But then we find out that the professor that started the program has passed away and no one's continued it and they were not going to give us credit for anything, so, but we could start at a different program. So we said no. Oh, and yes, yes, yes. I had signed up for my last two classes, and then personal tragedy hits. My daughter ended up in the hospital so I had to withdraw. Then later on is when we went to see about finishing up. That's when the professor had passed away. And we had to start a whole new program, and we said, "Okay, never mind." So then I thought, "Well, I'm going to finish unfinished business." So I decided I was going to go finish my master's degree at the University of Phoenix. And the day I'm taking my final, I get a call that my dad's in the hospital and he's not going to make it. And I'm trying to finish so quickly, my final. My daughter comes in. She says, "Mother, your dad is not going to make it. What are you doing?" And I'm crying, I say, 'I gotta finish this final!" Mother, you're not going---we got to go. Your dad's may not make it." "But I've got to finish up this final." "Mother, you're going to stop. We're going to go to the hospital. We will call your professor." So she did. But there I am, just a basket case. And they agreed they're going to let me take time off to take, go with my dad and do whatever we need to do. But when I go back, they failed me. They were not, they did not give me the time. And I said, you know what? Forget it. AK: That's so sad. 87 Justina Z: They didn't give me the time that I needed, although they told me they would. And I really [overlapping chatter]. Hilda B: ...How many have master's, though? Just two? Maria N: I got a master's in the school of hard labor due to my dad. AK: Yes. Sounds like it. Alicia Z: Well, I know you guys are way off topic here, and I just want to go back. I know, and everybody's been trying to conclude here [sounds of agreement, laughing]. But just in conclusion, I just wanted to share that again, I appreciate my mom and dad sacrificing everything they gave up for the better of us and their family. But as far as the railroad goes, and my dad, I am proud of him for being part of the community that quite literally built the railroad. Hilda B: In Ogden. Alicia Z: In Ogden, a lot of Latinos were part of that community that built the railroad. Hilda B: And their families have stayed here. Alicia Z: And more importantly, behind that great man was an equally great woman. Without my mom, my dad would have never succeeded. So I just want to honor her, too. Hilda B: I think he would have. Alicia Z: No, Mom was his support. Hilda B: You know what, he did look to Mom. He did. Alicia Z: Yeah, Mom was his support. Maria N: Yeah, Mom was his crutch. 88 Alicia Z: Just behind that great man was an equally great woman. Hilda B: And I'm going to tell you what was behind my mom. You know what was behind my mom? Her God and her faith. Justina Z: Her faith. Hilda B: She always held on to that. Always. And I think that was instilled in us at a very young age, too; Some have indwelled that more than others, but for the most part, I think Dad... Stella T: I ditto my sister. Hilda B: Who doesn't ditto? Maricella G: Exactly. Justina Z: We all ditto. AK: Thank you guys so, so, so much for letting me come... All: Thank you [all, staggered unison]. AK: ...and for especially your time. Thank you. It was wonderful. 89