Oral History Program Vivian Poppleton Smith Interviewed by Robert Barney 28 April 1971 i Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Vivian Poppleton Smith Interviewed by Robert Barney 28 April 1971 Copyright © 2014 by Weber State University, Stewart Library ii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in University Archives. The Stewart Library also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description The Weber State College/University Student Projects have been created by students working with several different professors on the Weber State campus. The topics are varied and based on the student's interest or task for a specific assignment. These oral history assignments were created to help Weber State students learn the value and importance of recording public history and to benefit the expansion of the Weber State oral history collections. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Smith, Vivian Poppleton, an oral history by Robert Barney, 28 April 1971, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Student’s Note The following transcript is very nearly a word-for-word copy of the interview I had with Mrs. Vivian Poppleton Smith. Some of the nervous laughter and a few of the indistinguishable remarks by either party have been omitted. Parts of the conversations are somewhat unclear when being read from the printed page but become quite clear when listened to on the tape. Because the mannerisms of the spoken word differ from those of the written word, I have only been able to guess at punctuation and sentence structure. During a pre-interview with Mrs. Smith she was very open and commented freely on various topics relevant to Utah History, especially in regards to her grandfather's mill and the United Order. However, when the tape recorder was turned on she was quite reluctant to discuss specific topics. She preferred to talk about her grandmother rather than the topics we discussed before the tapirs. In a subsequent conversation with Mrs. Smith I learned that the mill her grandfather ran is now beneath the waters of Hyrum Dam. The aunt, Aunt Maudie Thyberg, is still living in Pocatello and would probably be a good source for research concerning Cache Valley. Evidently she has done a considerable amount of research on her own and has compiled them into unpublished journals. Also, I think that Mrs. Smith herself would be a good source for a future interview. She has done a lot of work for the Daughters of the Utah Pioneers and I think if she was approached in the right manner she could give some good details of her grandfather's operations If not that, at least she could provide someone with some good leads for interviews relevant to Utah History. 1 Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Vivian Poppleton Smith. The interview was conducted on April 28, 1971 by Robert Barney in the home of the interviewee at 3241 Childs Avenue in Ogden, Utah. Mrs. Smith discusses her personal family history of Mormon pioneers as well as her involvement with the Daughters of the Utah Pioneers organization in Salt Lake City, Utah. RB: Just a minute Mrs. Smith, let me get this introduction on tape. This is Bob Barney, Utah History, Spring Quarter, (1971) Weber State College and I'm interviewing Mrs. Vivian Smith. Is that correct? VS: Yes, Vivian Poppleton Smith. RB: Vivian Poppleton Smith, at her home 3241 Childs Ave., in Ogden. She has been affiliated with some of the people who were early settlors in the Cache Valley area. Is that correct Mrs. Smith? VS: Yes, My grandmother, well all of my grandparents, all four of them were pioneers. This is a history of my grandmother on my mother’s side. Anna Marie Hansen was born December the tenth 1856 in Christiance, Norway. It’s now called Oslo, the capitol of Norway today. Anna Marie was the daughter of Hans Daniel Hansen and Mareen Nielsen Hansen. She immigrated to this country with her parents and family in the year 1863 on the ship "Antarctica". They left Liverpool on May 23rd, 1863 and arrived in Salt Lake City, Utah on August 24th, 1863. She was only seven years of age when she left her native land of Norway. Her parents embraced the gospel in Norway and the family walked across the plains to Utah. Her father and mother pushed handcarts. Her mother 2 Mareen Nielsen Hansen had a son born to her while in Parleys Canyon in Utah. She named him Parley. He was an invalid for his short life as hardships were numerous on the trip. He died soon after. I think he only lived to be about a year or something. The pioneer women had terrible time having children and trying to raise them all. RB: But he did make it to the Salt Lake Valley, is that...? VS: Oh, well he was born in Parleys Canyon, yes. As hardships were numerous on the trip. Another child was stolen by the Indians and was never found or recovered by this company. The family of Hans Daniel Hansen settled in Hyrum, Utah in Cache Valley and lived in a dugout in the square until they could build a home. They cut the fields of wheat by hand with a scythe having no farming implements of horses. Just ox teams. Hans Daniel Hansen was a wonderful blacksmith and made beautiful candlesticks of iron which were much sought after. He was known to have driven the last ox team in Cache Valley. His family raised sugarcane and all kinds of fruits and vegetables. They also had a molasses mill and a few head of sheep. The mother sheared the sheep herself and wove her own clothes out of their wool. Anna Marie Hansen married Fredrich Barhardt Thyberg, July 26th, 1876. She was sixteen years of age and received her endowments from the seal to her husband in the Salt Lake temple. She was the third wife and the youngest. She bore six children and was a most remarkable wife. When her husband's other two wives passed away she raised their children too. She raised three families. There was no distinction between them and their own. She took special care of her father in his latter years. She was a midwife, brought many babies into the world. She was a wonderful gardener. Her flowers were a delight and she distributed them to the ill. Her garden vegetables were also very useful helping to feed 3 her family. She also raised beans one year when the war was on. I think that must have been the First World War and I was very small but we children went there and helped her. When they dried she put them on a blanket and pressed 'em and then we tossed ‘em up and she sold them in the store and she made a lot of money. In those days sixtyfive dollars was a lot of money and she made sixty-five dollars off of those beans alone and they sold them to the army. RB: Now, the army... VS: The United States Army, they came around at that time to all the country places for food you know. RB: One question, if I may at this point Mrs. Smith. Now you mentioned that when her husband's other two wives died that she raised all their children. How many children was that? Have you discovered that yet? VS: Ah...let’s see... RB: She had six of her own so that right there that’s quite a family. VS: Yes. I think it was about fifteen children. And we made an issue of this, that today there is no home-life for children. But, it was a rock house and it’s still standing in Cache Valley I think. And her husband at that time was the miller and these children that these other two women did die too young because the hardships and things. One died in childbirth and there was no distinction made. I have never heard my mother refer to a half-sister or half-brother, as that was my half-brother or half-sister. It was always this is my sister or this is my brother and we all called them uncle the same and they all did 4 live in the house together and it was awfully hard on her but she did raise every one of them. RB: Now have you got some more there you want to read to me? VS: Let’s see… About when she died, don't you want to hear that? RB: Well that’s fine, we need to establish that too. VS: Anna Marie Thyberg went to visit a son in Pocatello, Idaho and contracted pneumonia. She recovered from that but died a few weeks later of a stroke in the arms of her son. She was never any bother to anyone at any time. She's buried in the Hyrum City cemetery, December 6th, 1926 by her husband. Anna Marie Hansen was born December 10th, 1856 in Oslo, Norway. She was a daughter of Hans Daniel Hansen. He was the only blacksmith in Hyrum at that time and he's buried there. He was born in Kingsberg, Norway. She raised a lot of flowers, and she packed water to them. They had irrigation but they didn't have a hose like we have or anything. And on summers when we went there when school was out we helped her pack water in pales and she'd give water to all the flowers. I never saw such pretty flowers. RB: Wonderful. Well I might point out that what you've just heard was a paper compiled by Mrs. Smith in reference to her grandmother and this was a job that Mrs. Smith has done for the Daughters of the Utah Pioneers, in which I assume you are quite active. Is that right Mrs. Smith? VS: Well I'm secretary of Camp Q. RB: Very good. And, for those who may not know, would you establish what Camp Q is? 5 VS: Well the Daughters of the Utah Pioneers, DUPs it’s called, and Kate Carter is the president and the head of the organization and she is in Salt Lake City and I think she is been in there fifteen years and she is really remarkable. Then they have all these other camps come out there and each year she has two big meetings in Salt Lake and gets their instructions and letters on what to do and that. And you can't be a Daughter of the Pioneers unless you do have pioneer ancestry. You have to prove it and get a number and send in your papers. I took this grandmother although all four of my ancestors are pioneers. RB: Well then Camp Q is just this area right here, Ogden area? VS: Yes. It belongs to the South Company. Its South, West, and North companies. RB: I'd like to get a little bit of your own personal background if we might get a little... personal. If you could give me... VS: Well I... RB: Where were you born and when? VS: I was born in Pocatello. My younger brother who's just a year and a half younger than me was born in Pocatello. My oldest sister was born in Hyrum. RB: And when were you born? What Year? VS: I was born 1902, July thirteenth. RB: Well then, in your growing up experience, you ought to have some experiences, if not in Northern Utah at least Southern Idaho. 6 VS: No. Uh-uh. My parents moved all over, I lived everywhere. I lived in Dillon, Montana and I lived in Idaho back and forth. Mostly Baker, Oregon. I've lived in Union, Oregon, but mostly Baker was my first years of school with the exception with some in Cache Valley when Grandma and my mother got quite sick and my grandmother took care of her there, I went two years in Cache Valley. RB: And about when was that? Do you recall? VS: No, I don't recall. RB: Well could you just give a few reminiscences of Cache Valley at that particular time as you remember it? VS: As I remember it, it was a lovely place to go. It was very green and where my Grandma lived was called Salt Holler. It was down this hill in the slough. You went through the slough but the dam is now built almost in her back yard. And there was a flume that brought the water over to my grandmothers and all the rest of those places. And I'd walk this flume. I wasn't a very nice little girl, I was climbing trees and all those things all the time. And I'd walk this big high flume and my brother lived in Paradise. He just roamed the country and was thrilled to death with it when he'd get there. And he loved Baker, Oregon too because Oregon was lumberyards you know and there was this sawmill and they lived down around there. I liked Baker because of the schools. Oregon has wonderful schools, and I like those. My sister didn't like Baker, Oregon as well as I did and she didn't like Cache Valley as well as I did and was not the type to roam. But I'd roam all over and I loved it when I got down there. Ah, the stories my grandma told when they lived in dugouts… The Indians did come. 7 RB: Now do you know what tribe of Indians that was? Because I have a question for you. Have you heard of the Washaki or Washaki Indians that were in Northern Utah and Southern Idaho? VS: She never said who they were. RB: And when we hear just the Indians in Utah because of our ancestors had quite a problem with— and I say problem advisedly— with the Indians. But gosh the area has several different tribes and this is one area where we feel there needs to be more work done, you know, establishing what tribes were where and how they felt and how the people got along with them. VS: My aunt may know what tribe but I didn't. But I do know that they would come and ransack the houses, and they loved anything red. They had a red tablecloth or red dress they'd take it. They were told to feed them and let them get out, you know, rather than fight them. Well they would be so frightened. The men would usually be gone. Grandpa would be at his mill. But one of the big chiefs did like my grandma an awful lot and kept coming back and wanted to buy her. She was just a little girl then. She wasn't married. That was one reason that I guess she married so young or the reason they had her marry in polygamy so young because this Indian was really crazy about her. My aunt has a picture of her and she was a cute little girl and it seemed like wherever she went to get water or anything he'd be popping up in front of her and around her. And he came to her father and wanted to buy her and they got quite frightened, I don't know just... Well, she had a sister but I guess it was her he wanted. She had sisters and she had brothers. And from the time she married though, then she just worked. 8 RB: Well you mentioned that this was an Indian chief. Did you ever hear your grandmother talk about what he offered? VS: Yes! He offered quite a bit. And my grandma got quite frightened because he meant what he said. He was either gonna buy her or steal her. And she didn't like it. And of course her father didn't want it either. RB: Well I can appreciate that, but did he ever make an attempt to go grab her? VS: Yes! RB: Could you tell us anything about that? This sounds fascinating. VS: It’s shocking! RB: Good! Let’s get it on here. VS: Well this is the main story of the whole thing and it settled the whole issue, was that Indians are primitive people. And this one was very handsome, very strong and he came one day with a great big blanket wrapped around him and then threw it aside just to let her see what a magnificent specimen he was. And it frightened her being just a little girl, frightened her mother and all of them. But he thought nothing of it, you know. That was one way of them doing things. He did anything and everything and offered a lot of money and everything. But that ended it and her father couldn't have fought him because you can't whip the Indians, not when they came. They came one time and took everything in the house. Almost all the food. They didn't bother the dishes and tiling but they did take all the food more than once. But they kept a lot of it hid. They'd bury the vegetables in the ground and things like that. 9 RB: Well were there any acts of violence? I mean whereas the lives were threatened on either side Indians or whites? VS: No except for that, you know, it said in there they stole that one little boy and they never did find him again. More of a sneaky type, hit and run, that’s what they'd do. But no, Grandma never spoke of any except that she told of one act of violence, but that was a lynching. And that was the people themselves that did that. RB: That sounds good, let’s hear about it. VS: I can't remember his name, I think his first name was Parley too. They named them after all these places. I'm not sure what his name was and I don't know what he'd done. It wasn't too bad. And he was a retarded person and they came and chased him and Grandma never did get over it and one of the people in the dugout fed him cheese and crackers and milk and tried to help him. But they cornered him there but they took him over to Logan and lynched him. RB: Well that’s... VS: I don't know what exactly it was. But it was not bad enough for that. That was mob violence. RB: Well that’s unfortunate. You know these are the things we never read about in our history books, and unless we talk to the people that experienced it we know it did happen but finding proof... VS: A lot of them ran over into Logan too to watch it and Grandma said that some of the food ran out of his mouth and she cried and cried she wasn't very old when they told her about it. Because she was the type of woman that cared for everybody and everything 10 and animals too. She raised all those children and they were all her own. And she lost one son herself and then there was one daughter from one of the marriages that was ill for years and she took care of her but she finally passed away and that about broke her heart. And then there was another one that she lost. RB: Well you know today we look back and many of the pioneers had such large families and when you consider that they lost so many on the trek out… VS: Yes... RB: And we hear about how they lost their children. I wonder if it was that much of a tragedy then as it is now as compared to how we feel now when we lose our children... VS: Yes.... RB: That’s just a passing thought. VS: Oh yes! It broke her heart because the last baby she lost said she had seven here was she named him Douglas Adarth, and when he died she said she was through with marriage and through with having children that it'd broke her heart and I think she meant it. And there is another thing, the pioneer women felt awful about polygamy and they'd all say, "Oh don't marry younger women", but the younger woman got the brunt of it because the older women died. Grandpa was quite a bit older than grandma. And then they would have to take the children and she wound up with three families. Her own and two more. RB: Um-hmm. VS: And she raised them all. RB: Now you mentioned that your grandfather was a blacksmith. Was that correct? 11 VS: No. My great grandfather was blacksmith... RB: This was the gentleman that came from Norway? VS: Yes. I think they all did. RB: And then what business was your grandfather in? VS: That's a story too. He was the miller. RB: In Cache Valley? VS: Yes. He run the mill. And when the United Order come in and you were to turn everything over to the church and he did it and that was the end of the mill. RB: And what was his name again? VS: Thyberg. Rudolph Thyberg and he was a wonderful man and he was the leader, first leader of the orchestra over in Logan that they started a choir. RB: Gee this sounds... VS: Every one of her children, including my mother were musically inclined. My mother could sit down and play a piano or pick up a violin and play a violin. RB: That was another thing that was quite dominant in pioneer families was the ability to entertain themselves. VS: Yes, and they all sat around. My mother played the guitar too. I give it to Shawnee-boy, the baby and one played the violin and one played the banjo, one played the mandolin. The one that played the violin is the one that moved to Idaho and he played to all the dances. 12 RB: Well now how long did your grandfather run this mill? Before the United Order took over? VS: Well it was during the period of the United Order, and it was Joseph Howell and Reed Smoot that came in there and they were heading the United Order. And this is not nice of me to say, but they wound up rich and he wound up very, very poor. They lost everything. RB: In reading Arrington's book about the economic background of Utah, in reading about the United Order, I never cease to be amazed at the willingness of some of the pioneers to turn their real property over to the church with no questions and no reimbursement, really. VS: No, it was a failure. The United Order was a failure, it had to go. But before it went lots of people did lose their... I have a friend Venetta Simpson, and her… Reed Smoot and Howell went into St. George and her mother and father had a home there and they turned this extra home over to them and that was the end of that too. And my sister married a descendant of Maughans and of course Maughans really had all of Wellsville, almost all was settled by Maughans. And Mrs. Maughan, Aunt Mary Howell she calls 'em. They finished their days in the Hotel Utah. My sister would go to see them, take her little boy. And she come right out and asked her and she said, "Well yes. It was the truth," that they did take the mill like that away from my grandfather. But he had obsolete and they wanted to bring it more up to date. In this one book is about the mill and about Maughan, so I know where it’s located now. I've read it and studied them, the millers... RB: Could you mention the title of the book please? 13 VS: Mills and Millers the title of the book is probably Daughters of the Utah Pioneers lessons. And the one about the mills is in its lesson for April, 1971 compiled by Kate Carter. She's a good historian. RB: And it’s titled Mills and Millers. In case anyone would like to research that it can be found in the Daughters of the Utah Pioneers lesson magazine. VS: Yes. RB: Well Mrs. Smith I've just about run out of time and so I'm going to have to wrap it up. I certainly do want to thank you for letting me come into your home and interview with you. And, perhaps all from the information you've given me someone else might be curious to look into some of the information you've given me further. VS: Well, I don't know as much as my aunt. My aunt that married my mother's brother is a great historian. She lives in Idaho. RB: Name? VS: Her name is ah Maudie Thyberg. RB: Maudie Thyberg? VS: Maudie Thyberg. She's in her eighties now and she's the only one left of them. And she's written a lot of stuff. RB: Well this might be a very fine source for someone else to go through in the future. VS: She's got two or three histories of Cache Valley. They put out a little booklet of Cache Valley that’s no bigger than this. They've got a great big one now that costs twelve 14 dollars or something. They sell it there on Decoration Day. But the book she's got is really something of Hyrum, Utah if you can get hold of one you'd get the whole history. RB: What town in Idaho does she live in? VS: Ah Pocatello. RB: Pocatello. Okay, well our time is just about up so this is Bob Barney for Utah History, Spring Quarter, seventy-one. 15