Oral History Program Shinji Ichida Interviewed by Lorrie Rands 7 October 2013 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Shinji Ichida Interviewed by Lorrie Rands 7 October 2013 Copyright © 2014 by Weber State University, Stewart Library Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description Business at the Crossroads - Ogden City is a project to collect oral histories related to changes in the Ogden business district since World War II. From the 1870s to World War II, Ogden was a major railroad town, with nine rail systems. With both east-west and north-south rail lines, business and commercial houses flourished as Ogden became a shipping and commerce hub. After World War II, the railroad business declined. Some government agencies and businesses related to the defense industry continued to gravitate to Ogden after the war—including the Internal Revenue Regional Center, the Marquardt Corporation, Boeing Corporation, Volvo-White Truck Corporation, Morton-Thiokol, and several other smaller operations. However, the economy became more service oriented, with small businesses developing that appealed to changing demographics, including the growing Hispanic population. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Ichida, Shinji, an oral history by Lorrie Rands, 7 October 2013, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, Special Collections, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Shinji Ichida October 7, 2013 Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Shinji Ichida. The interview was conducted on October 7, 2013, by Lorrie Rands. Shinji discusses 25th Street and his memories of growing up in the Japanese community in Ogden. LR: It is October 7, 2013; we are in the home of Shinji Ichida talking about 25th Street and his memories growing up in the Japanese community. I am Lorrie Rands, conducting the interview and Melissa Johnson is with me as well. Mr. Ichida, I want to thank you for your time and allowing us to come back and do this interview. Let’s just start at the beginning, when are where were you born? SI: Okay, I was born in Seattle, Washington in 1931, so I’m ancient as it were. I moved to Ogden when I was three or four years old and have been here ever since. So, I know the Ogden vicinity very well, plus the fact that when I was younger I used to deliver cleaning clothes for my uncle who owned a cleaning establishment and also worked for a flower shop doing deliveries. So, I got to learn the Ogden area quite well as far as streets and so forth. I’ve been here a long time. LR: When you came here when you were three or four, where was your first residence? SI: On 23rd and Grant Avenue. I went to grammar school at Grant School, which was on 23rd and Grant Avenue, so I was only half a block away from my grammar school. I grew up in the neighborhood and went to Central Junior High which is, I think, Lewis High school on 25th Street and Monroe. I graduated from 1 Ogden High School and went to Weber State when it was a junior college. So, I’ve been here a long time. LR: When you lived on 23rd Street, you were there until a teenager? SI: Probably, I would have to guess the 1930’s and then moved to 23rd and Lincoln on the corner and was there for 10 or 15 years. Then, we lived at 127 Doxie, which is in between 27th and 28th on Wall Avenue. So, like I said, I’ve been in Ogden all of my life. LR: So, before the 1940’s, what would you do for fun? Could you go down to 25th Street? SI: Well, that’s where we hung out. Electric Alley, which is the back side of 25th Street between Wall Avenue and Grant Avenue, is where our playground was, in the back alleys. We grew up there. We had a Japanese School on Lincoln between 24th and 25th, so our activities were primarily from 24th Street to 25th Street between Grant Avenue and Wall Avenue. That area is very, very nostalgic to me because I grew up there. Where the Summit Hotel is now, that used to be our playground in the back alleys. The electric company, Yesco, it’s Young Electric Sign Company, used to have their company on 24th and Lincoln Avenue. We used to climb over their fence and get the little tubes and break those and use them as spit ball deals. It’s a funny thing because all of those electric signs always had the mercury in it, so I’ve ingested a lot of mercury through the ages, but I’ve never had any problem, health wise. I’m totally amazed that we survived those kinds of things when we were kids. 2 LR So your parents were okay with your hanging out on 25th Street? SI: Yes, because, like I told you before, there were really no aspects of being in danger there. Not our parents or us as young kids, ever feared getting mugged or kidnapped or anything like that. We just hung out there and watched. During the war we watched soldiers getting rolled and we saw drunkards getting rolled and it was all part of the activity of 25th Street back in the 40’s and 50’s, but that’s where we grew up. Like I was telling you before, all the brothels in Ogden were on 24th Street and Grant Avenue, so we saw the seamy side of life. We, even as kids, used to climb up on roofs and peek in windows and look at the brothel place. We never did get to see anything, but always those kind of mischievous things are what we did as kids growing up on electric alley. Right now, electric alley has been fixed up so there’s a lot of eateries and even the back side of 25th Street they have outside eateries. It’s pretty nice now. Back in our days it was vacant lots and nothing but gravel and broken glasses, but we survived. LR: Is it strange to learn that those who didn’t grow up on 25th Street found it a terrible, scary place? SI: Probably primarily the Caucasian race, they hardly ever came down 25th Street because during the wars years it was pretty notorious. Between the beer joints and the brothels, there weren’t very many other activities. Union Station was a going railroad station back in those days. The military were transported through Ogden and the military always got a weekend pass or a pass to get off on 25th Street and visit the beer joints. I’ll leave out the other one, I’m sure that happened too. Like I say, all the activities during the war was very, very open as far as 3 drinking and all that kind of stuff, so we saw all of that through the ages of growing up. LR: Speaking of the war, you mentioned this last time, but what are your memories of December 7, 1941? SI: Well, like I mentioned, I was raised by grandma and grandpa. My grandfather happened to be one of the more, I won’t say important, but outstanding Japanese people in the Japanese community. On December 7, 1941, 11:30 at night, the police came and took him into custody and took him to Weber County Jail and he stayed there for a week and then he was shipped out to Mississippi to an internment camp and stayed there for a year and a half. He came back a year and a half after that. The war probably shortened his life by a couple years. He passed away when he was 75. I was ten years old at the time in 1941, so it was an impression that was very ingrained in my mind as far as a youngster was concerned. It was one of those things that, during the war at least when it broke out, the hysteria was very prominent and that’s why all the Japanese descent people in California on the west coast were sent to internment camps because of that. The hysteria was so prominent. LR: You’ve mentioned that it had an impact on you as a 10 year old. How did that affect the rest of your childhood? SI: Well, I guess it made me introverted or reserved simply because you didn’t want to be outgoing when you were of Japanese descent during the war years. I can remember grandma and grandpa always saying, “Don’t speak Japanese in the presence of Caucasians because they’ll think you’re talking about them.” We 4 primarily lost the capability of conversing in Japanese. That’s why right now I can still understand a little bit, I can speak a little bit, but very limited. Whereas, Chinese, Spanish, they all speak their mother tongue in their families so they’re very fluent and they understand it very well, they can read it. Whereas the Japanese people pretty much lost it because of the war. I dare say the second third and fourth generation as far as the Japanese language itself, cannot speak it, cannot read it. We lost the ability to converse in Japanese simply because we were told not to use it. That’s the way it was during the war time. LR: When the war was over and things were kind of settling down a little, you just didn’t start speaking it again? SI: No, because by then my grandparents were very elderly, they were close to, I think 70’s, so they were on their last leg if you will as far as their life was concerned, so our conversations were very limited and we spoke primarily English because we grew up that way with school and all of that. We ran around with nothing but English speaking kids and same nationality as me. You probably had 10 guys that you grew up with that were Japanese decent, but we all spoke English all the time. We never used Japanese words other than maybe a slang or a swear word or something like that. Other than that, we never used it. We never had the occasion to use it, so we primarily grew up using English. We even went to Japanese school when we were teenagers, the more simple reading and writing of the Japanese alphabet if you will, until the war broke out. After the war broke out, that was done away with simply because of the hysteria as far as Japanese people were concerned. 5 I’ll tell you a little bit more about 25th Street. There was a Buddhist church on Lincoln Avenue between 24th and 25th. There was a dry goods store on the same block. There was a Chinese gambling casino on the same block and people say it was an opium den also, but I was never privy to that. I would imagine there was some of that going on because in those days it was pretty loose as far as gambling and stuff was concerned. The Lincoln Avenue between 24th and 25th had probably half a dozen Japanese residents and companies or stores, if you will. On the west side of Lincoln there was a Pacific Fruit, which was a produce company that primarily was run by Japanese people too. It was all very Japanese community oriented in that two block area. LR: So, the area between Lincoln and Grant and 23rd to 25th? SI: No, 24th to 25th. LR: Okay, so you mentioned last time that it was what you guys called Japanese town or J-town. Is it just that block then that was considered that? SI: Yes. It was just that one square block that was considered J-town because most of the stores were in that square block. There were establishments on Kiesel and Wall Avenue and over on 26th Street there were families living there too, but as far as the town activity itself, it was right in that one block area. LR: Speaking of the businesses, during the war and then afterward, was it hard for the Japanese to continue working? Were the businesses still able to function? SI: Yes, but to a lesser degree because it was affected during, I would dare say, probably a five to ten year spam. After that things went pretty much back to 6 normal. By then, the ones that weren’t making an income probably closed up before that. The ones that were doing okay continued on. Like I told you, on Grant Avenue there was Utah Noodle and Bamboo Noodle right next to each other, which did very well during that time period. The reason I know is because my wife’s brother owned Utah Noodle. They moved up to Washington in the 1970’s and they kept going until just last November. There was one document in there that you probably need to read because Raymond Uno was the one who wrote it and he’s a retired judge. He’s very well-known in the community as far as the aspects of people that judge things. Anyway, he wrote that and he mentioned there were primarily three J-town or Japanese communities in Utah. One was in Price City in Carbon County, one was in Salt Lake and the other was in Ogden. The only reason we had one in Ogden was because primarily the Union Depot because the Japanese, the first generation Japanese that came to Utah, most of the people, or guys, that came to the United States worked on the railroad, so consequently, the relationship between the Union Pacific Station and settling here in Ogden was very cohesive as far as being in existence as far as working for the railroad. That was one of the reasons the Japanese community was in Ogden and then Salt Lake it was simply because it was the largest city and the reason in Carbon County in Price was because of the coal mines. They worked in the coal mines. LR: Did your grandfather work on the railroad? SI: No. LR: He had another business? 7 SI: Yes. Like I said, he was sort of a semi-important person in the Japanese community. He never had to do manual labor, he was always a higher up guy that did bookwork and stuff. LR: Did he have his own business? SI: They had what they called the Intermountain Japanese Association which was an association that developed Japanese American relationships within the Northern Utah area. He was very prominent as far as the Japanese community from Corrine in the north to Salt Lake in the south. In the organizations or Buddhist church and community things going on, he had his fingers in all of those areas. He was very well-known and established as far as importance in the Japanese community. That’s one of the reasons he was interned immediately when the war broke out. LR: So, I’m kind of going backwards a little and I apologize. You mentioned that there was only about a dozen from Ogden that were interned and they were all important in the community. SI: Important in the Japanese community. Primarily guys like, I can name two or three of them, there was Mr. Sakurada who was a prominent market established entrepreneur. There was Dr. Yoshitaka, who was a dentist. There was Kobayashi, who owned the Utah hand laundry. Those kinds of people were the ones that were taken, that owned their own establishment, that were highly thought of in the upper echelon as far as the Japanese community was concerned. They were the ones that were picked up right from the very beginning and taken. 8 LR: The ones that owned their own businesses, did their business suffer? SI: Yes. Like I said, probably the first five years was the worst. After that they probably slowly came back. At least in the Ogden area, there really wasn’t all that much prejudice. There were a handful that thought of you as the enemy, if you will, and called you all kinds of names and stuff, but that was minimal in the Ogden area. On the west coast it was predominant. I’ve heard those stories like there’s a senator from Hawaii, Daniel Inoway, who’s passed on now, but he was in the army in the 442 and he lost one of his arms. When he got discharged in California, he went to a barbershop to get a haircut and they wouldn’t cut his hair because he was of Japanese descent. He even had on his uniform, that’s how bad it was back in those days. It’s something that we lived with and grew up with, but we got over it so to speak. It’s still in the back of our minds or in our memory, but we got over it. I’m 82 now, and I can still remember certain instances. In Ogden there were two areas that we were not allowed to go to because we were Japanese people. One was KLO, which was above the Orpheum Theater. We couldn’t go to that theater to see a movie because they feared we would do something to KLO, which was a radio station. Those things didn’t last very long, it only lasted probably a year or a year and a half. After that they lifted. There were certain areas that Japanese race people could not go. In California it was even twice as bad, so here in Ogden or here in Utah, it wasn’t all that bad. LR: This obviously shaped your childhood and as you grew in your teenage years. You talked about your uncle who owned a cleaning establishment and that you would deliver clothes. 9 SI: Was there any prejudice when I delivered? Let’s see, that would have been, I graduated in 1949, so it would have been 1948, 1949 and I went into the service in 1951, so between 1948 and 1950 is when I used to deliver clothes for my uncles. I never had any problem because I was a typical teenager. LR: You were just doing your thing. SI: Yes. Most of the Caucasian people never entered their mind as far as a kid delivering clothes that they would be prejudice against. One thing I will say for my uncle. He did a very good job of cleaning clothes, so we had a lot of real good customers, so I never had, at least to my knowledge, I can’t remember ever being discriminated against while I was working there. LR: Kind of a lighter question, when you were in your teenage years, would you still do the same things for fun? Would you still be on 25th Street or were you kind of expanding out into the community? SI: No, that was our area, that’s all. We only grew up between school and that one block area, that’s primarily where we hung out and played. It’s really funny because as kids, we used to make swords and have swordfights and we used to make little rubber guns and use inner tubes, because in those days, inner tubes were in tires, so we used to make those and have rubber gun fights. I told you about Young Electric Sign Company and the blowers, we used to do that. So, we played marbles, we played tag, Annie eye over the roofs. Kids nowadays don’t know how to play compared to what we used to do when we were young. I see kids now just for, I don’t know why, they’ll go and pick a flower off of somebody’s bush and throw it in the gutter or sidewalk. Why do you want to do that? If you 10 pick it, why don’t you take it home? I just can’t fathom why kids do that now. The kids I see now go and, even the grammar school kids, when they get off at 3:00pm, they dare cars to hit them. They cross the street and they slow down, they don’t hurry up. I can’t imagine why kids are like that anymore. It doesn’t make any sense. They’re daring you to hit them and I tell young kids, I say, “I hope your skin is tougher than that bumper.” They look at me, “well, what do you have to say about it?” I’m thinking, “Well, you know, logic up here tells you that you shouldn’t be doing that.” That’s the kind of stuff that we used to do back in the electric alley and we grew up that way. We made our own entertainment and got along— along with the mischievous stuff. LR: Of all the businesses on 25th Street that you didn’t necessarily frequent, but you were able to be around, which ones were your favorite? Did you have a favorite that you just liked to hang out in front of? SI: Well, restaurant wise I’ve got to say Bamboo and Utah Noodle probably. I wasn’t married to my wife at that time when I was a kid, but Bamboo Noodle used to have a bowl of noodles for 35 cents, so we could go in there and afford to have a bowl of noodles. We didn’t have a lot of money in those days, but 35 cents wasn’t much money either. Those were the kind of places that we often frequented. As we grew up, I can remember when I was in high school, we visited Salt Lake a lot because 1st south and West Temple was J-town in Salt Lake. There used to be three or four cafes in that area that we went to all the time too. When I was growing up, when I got to high school, there was one older guy that we hung out with. He was one year older than us, so he was the guy that had the car. There 11 was a half a dozen of us guys, he would furnish the car and we would pitch in our 25 or 50 cents to buy gas and we’d go to Salt Lake. That’s the way we used to survive. In those days, gas was 20 cents or 25 cents a gallon. LR: Going back to the discrimination on the street. I asked last time about the blanket discrimination on the street. The south side was where the blacks were allowed and they weren’t allowed on the north. You mentioned that you didn’t really see a lot of that until later. SI: In Ogden, the race situation really wasn’t that terrible. Like I mentioned, when I went into the service, I went to Texas to take my basic training and that was the first exposure to real prejudice because there were separate drinking fountains, separate lavatories, and all of that kind of stuff. In Ogden, the black community primarily stayed on the west side. They all lived on Lincoln and Wall Avenue. That was the area that blacks lived and the Japanese people were primarily around 25th Street and the Mexicans, there weren’t that many in Ogden at that time, so those were the two major races in Ogden that existed. There were a few Chinese too, but they were also mixed in with the Japanese community because they are an Asian or Oriental race. In Ogden, I really didn’t see that much racial prejudice, whether it was against the Japanese or against the colored because on 25th Street, there wasn’t that much prejudice. It wasn’t all that bad. Like I told you, the only time I ever saw it really predominant was in the south when I went into the service. LR: As you got older and graduated from high school, what did you decide to do career-wise? 12 SI: I didn’t have the slightest idea of what I was going to do. In fact, I had no aspirations to go to college. The Korean War broke out and before we got drafted, I decided to join, so I joined the Air Force. I went in the Air Force for four years and came out and bummed around and worked half a dozen different jobs and I really had no secret desire to be a doctor or a lawyer a carpenter or anything like that. I just, you know, went with the flow, if you will, helped primarily with my uncle in his dry cleaning business. I even delved into a flower shop because of delivering and those kinds of things. I don’t know if it’s luck or, I happened to go take a test at the capital for this appraisal job and happened to pass it so I went for an interview with the state tax commission and they asked me a bunch of questions about appraising and so forth and I guess I did all right because they said, “When would you like to start?” I said, “How about tomorrow?” I started. That’s history. I’ve been doing that ever since. LR: Your uncle’s cleaning establishment, his dry cleaning business, do you remember what it was called? SI: Economy Cleaners on 24th Street between Grant and Kiesel on the north side of the street. LR: As time has gone on and you’ve had a chance to look at 25th Street the way it is now, do you like the way it’s changed? SI: Yes, I really do. In fact, I’m rather surprised with the activity on 25th Street now. In fact, we go down to the sushi bar, Tona’s, on 25th Street and by the way, it used to be Western Barbershop that Wat Misaka, the one that used to play for Weber College and also Utah University, that’s where his mother had a 13 barbershop. In fact, I dare say there’s my hair on the floor someplace in that building because I’ve had my hair cut there all the time. That café is where the barbershop used to be and we go down there quite often. To find a parking space on 25th Street in the evening time is pretty tough to do. We can park in the back where the hotel is because that had a lot of parking space. We go down to Karen’s Café which is half a block further west on the south side of the street. Saturdays they have the farmer’s markets and there are a lot of people down there milling around. I’ve got to say, Ogden, thanks to the mayor and so forth, the activities, there’s a lot of activity going on in downtown Ogden, I’m surprised. It’s progress. All of the old buildings that I know about primarily are all gone. The hotels replaced, the federal buildings are replaced, almost all of the buildings. You asked about Star Noodle, that closed up and it’s vacant right now and it’s for sale. Its progress I guess. LR: Hopefully for the better. Do you have any questions? MJ: I had a few that I jotted down. You mentioned that you were born in Seattle and then came to Ogden when you were three or four. How come your family relocated to Ogden? SI: Well, it wasn’t, let me back up a little bit. When I was born, my family moved to San Francisco, California. Mom and Dad and my older brother and I lived there and when I was three or four, they shipped me to Ogden to live with my grandma and grandpa because Mom was very ill at the time and it so happened that I liked it better here than I did there, so they said, “Well, you can stay,” hoping that I would come back eventually, but I never did I just stayed in Ogden. I grew up in 14 Ogden and later there was a younger brother that was born, so my knowledge of my two brothers were less than the guys I used to run around with because I never grew up with them. So, they were living in California when the war broke out which is why they were sent to an internment camp. Manzanar was the name of the camp they went to in California. When they got out they decided to go to Cleveland, so that’s where they relocated after the internment. So, when they moved out there I had no reason to go back east, so I stayed here. That’s the way it was. I just grew up as grandma and grandpa’s kid. LR: You were, in essence, an only child with your grandparents? SI: Yes. Until my uncles and aunt came and they took over living and taking care of grandma and grandpa as far as their life was concerned. That’s why I got an association with the cleaners, but after that, my aunt and uncle primarily raised me, which was after probably my sophomore or junior year in high school. When I went in the service and came back I was old enough that I pretty much went out on my own. MJ: So, how did your grandparents settle in Ogden? Why did they settle here? SI: I really don’t know how they came about coming here. My grandma is the mother of my uncle, Tominaga, and my grandfather remarried my grandma. He was originally married to another lady. I never met her, I just knew about her. Grandma was always here as I remember and grandpa came from, I don’t know where he came from, other than Japan. He came here and they got married. My grandpa was one of the, I don’t know if you want to use the word “instigator,” but he was one of the ones that took care of, the Japanese word is, “Bishakunin,” 15 which means, “picture marriage.” They used to fix up guys that lived in Ogden or the Utah area that never got married, fixed them up with a wife from Japan just through pictures. LR: Wow. SI: Yes, that used to go on back in the old days. That was primarily to get Japanese descent ladies from Japan into the United States because in those days there was a limited amount of foreigners that came into the United State, but if you could arrange a marriage, then that took place and they were able to come. The guys were always already American citizens because they were born in the United States. They were always older guys that went through their life primarily working for their parents and never interfaced into the American life and dating, etc. So, that’s why those kinds of marriages were arranged for the Japanese. MJ: Would they go to Japan and marry them and bring them back or would they bring girls to the U.S.? SI: Some of them would go just to meet them to make sure that they wanted to marry them, but some of them just “cold turkey” came over. I don’t know if that’s the right term to use, but they came over and got married over here. MJ: You said your aunt and uncle came to Ogden as well. Were they the only other extended family that you had or did you have other aunts and uncles? SI: Well, through marriage, yeah, my aunt’s sisters lived in Idaho and I got to know them, but as far as my uncle, my mother and uncle were brother and sister and they were the only two in the family. So, not really a lot of relatives. I know on my 16 father’s side there are people in japan still existing. When I went to Japan I looked them up and visited with them, so that was a good experience. MJ: I wanted to talk a little bit about that Intermountain Japanese Association. Do you know how it started? SI: I can’t tell you anything about it because all I remember is that he was the head of it and they paid him. I don’t know how in the heck he got paid, to tell you the truth, but I’m sure it was the community donating or paying him a certain amount of money for whatever he did. I don’t know how it started or why it started, or why they chose him to take care of it because I was only eight or ten years old at that time. I just know that there was such a thing. My grandpa, I got to give him all the credit in the world for raising me right. Like I told you before about kids and how they act, in my days when I was growing up, grandpa was good for this. He used to always give me one of these if I did something wrong, it was one of these little knuckles in the head. It wasn’t very hard or anything, it was just a reminder that you need to shape up and do things right. It was a good learning experience, even while I was going to school. If I got stuck on some algebra problem or whatever, he would take me aside and he’d say, “Now, this is the way you do it,” and he’d give me one of these and say, “Maybe that’ll help you remember.” He was very stern and I didn’t dare go against his wishes or ever miss mind whatever he said. I can thank him from the bottom of my heart today because that’s the way I was raised. My kids were raised pretty much the same way because I used to pull out the belts, if you will, and give them a spanking now and again when they 17 misbehaved. In today’s age you couldn’t do that. You would be mishandling children. It’s a different culture from the time I grew up to now. I can see kids, like I said before, that’s what they need a little bit, one of these or a little kick in the butt, if you will. Maybe that would straighten them out. That’s why you get, when they get into their later teens and early twenties they get into this kind of stuff that is more serious like robberies, etc. MJ: The other thing I was kind of wondering, we talked about the hub that the Union depot was. It was that railroad hub and it brought in so much business during the war, but we know later on that declined, so how did that affect the Japanese businessmen who were down there? SI: As time went on, I dare say, probably in the seventies, most of your Japanese community establishments disappeared. There are a few that lingered on, like my wife’s brother, he existed in business for 57 years, if you can believe it. Those were far and few between. For whatever reason they either quit the business or went into something that was a little bit more lucrative or more meaningful. All of those kinds of businesses that the Japanese community was in in those days were, not demeaning, but lower class, if you will, lower income, if you will, because that’s all they could do at the time. That was normal for foreigners to get established, so that’s what they did. Before I forget, the hotel Ben Lomond, did you know that was originally a different hotel named, “Bigelow?” MJ: Yes. SI: Okay, that’s good. I didn’t really realize that until we did this day or remembrance in 2007. I was doing some historical work and I found out it was Bigelow and I 18 thought, “Wow, that’s strange.” I always knew it as Ben Lomond Hotel. That’s one fact I wanted to bring up to you guys because that was back in the thirties, maybe even twenties? MJ: It was about then. Archie Bigelow, who owned it, it was during the depression that he lost his fortune and sold it to the Eccles family. SI: It was interesting to me because I’ve never known it as anything else other than Ben Lomond. MJ: It’s fun working in special collections the way that we do because we learn all these little tidbits. We go out and talk to people and get their stories. SI: Have you heard about the Egyptian Theater and the Peery family? Peery used to be quite a notorious guy in his days. MJ: I know, mostly as the mayor, the cowboy mayor. SI: I think he was an instigator of pioneer days way back when. MJ: The Buddhist Temple that was there on Lincoln, how long was that there for? SI: Growing up, as a kid, it was always there when I was small, but they relocated to North Street, I’m thinking it had to be in the fifties or sixties. That’s where all the Japanese funerals were done and the Buddhist celebrations, whatever they had, the hana matsuri and that kind of stuff was all down there. MJ: We actually have a couple of pictures of a parade that was done by the Japanese Buddhist. I’m not sure when the photos were taken; I think they were from the fifties or sixties. 19 SI: I think I know what one you’re talking about because I’ve got the same ones. I was looking for that, but I don’t know where it is on my computer. The one with the little children in their Kimono’s? MJ: Yes. SI: Yes, that one. I think it’s probably the same picture. MJ: Did they often do parades like that? SI: Yes, because the hana matsuri I’m talking about is an annual thing that they celebrate in Japan primarily and it came over from Japan. They perpetuated the custom and so forth. They celebrate by doing the dances and stuff and it’s always in their Kimono’s and that kind of stuff. They used to do it all the time. MJ: It’s hana matsuri? SI: Yes, “hana” means “flower” and “matsuri” is “celebration” so it’s the flower celebration. MJ: Okay. SI: It’s just like; I’m trying to think of the Japanese café over on 37th Street. I can’t think of the name. Well, that’s another story I guess because I can’t remember what it is. SI: I’m very honored and pleased that you guys would take the time to do this because for me, as a Japanese, we just don’t get this story out to the community because they are not aware that there was such a thing as J-town back in the day. The celebration that we put on in 2007, I chaired the thing and Raymond Uno, he was primarily the instigator of the whole thing and he did most of the 20 work, but he just used me as a centerpiece, I guess. The Japanese community, during probably ten years prior to the war and ten years after the war, it was predominant right there on 25th Street. So, if you’re doing the 25th Street history, you’ve got to get that because we were very prominent during the late thirties and early forties. There were a lot of Japanese establishments and café and laundries and hotels and that kind of stuff. LR: You mentioned that when the railroad stopped going through that the businesses began to flounder away. Did that stop being J-town then? Or has it? SI: Actually, I would still have to say that it’s there a little bit, but not as much. If you asked people of my age, they would immediately say, “Yes, J-town is gone, because there is really no Japanese establishment down there. There are two sushi bars down there, but they are both run by Chinese. I know the one very well. Tony is his name and his wife, Tina. The Tona restaurant, the name has been divided between the two. Tina is very, very presentable, as far as being the outgoing person at the restaurant, but this Tony guy, he took sushi making classes in San Francisco, so he does a very good job of emulating the Japanese custom and making sushi. There is a knack and in Japan, it isn’t so much quantity as it is presentation. You’ve got to have a nice looking dish as far as the sushi is. It’s got to be presentable to taste good. That’s their theory. He’s learned that very well in his presentations of sushi. There’s a Chinese guy, two Mexicans and one white guy making the sushi for him. So, you can imagine, not one real Japanese there and the owner is Chinese, but he does a good job. In fact, he 21 always tells me, are you watching real closely, and I say, “Yeah I’m watching you guys.” Not that I’m an expert. I just depend on my nationality to ride it a little bit. LR: Let me just ask you this final question. Is there anything else that you’d like to share about your time growing up on 25th Street or just the Japanese community as a whole that you’d like to share? SI: As probably an afterthought, but I am pleased that you would take the time to do this because the story of the Japanese community in Ogden really hasn’t been exposed to the general public. Yes, the Japanese people know about it because we’ve lived it and grew up with it and so forth. Even the tape stuff that I’ve given you, please look at it and decide what you want to use and what you don’t want to use. There is one document in there written by Raymond Uno, the one that I always tell is he’s a judge and he’s very good at writing stuff and that gives you a real good picture of the Japanese history from J-towns in the three communities I talked about and how it demised and where it went to. It’s just a little snippet of the J-towns in Utah and it’ll give you some very good history as far as what happened in Utah. My idea of the Japanese community growing up was, I was just a kid and went through all the regular stuff kids go through and never was very important or did anything important, but enjoyed my life to now and to have you guys take the time to do this, I appreciate it. LR: We appreciate your willingness to share. SI If you ever decide you want more input, I would like to get a couple or three guys that have gone through the Ogden growing up. Guys like Ray and Alice who actually went into an internment camp and maybe at some future date, we could 22 set an hour or two and you could pick their brain, if you would. I’d be glad to set something up like that if you’re interested. MJ: Absolutely, we are. SI: Just give me a call and let me know and I could sure arrange that without any problem. Ray lives in Salt Lake and Alice lives here in Ogden. Maybe we three and maybe one or two more and you could fire questions like crazy. LR: I think we could definitely do something in the next little while, that would be fantastic. SI: It doesn’t have to be immediate. A year down the line, six months down the line, just remind me who you are when you call. If you want something like that I would be more than happy to arrange that and we can go to the church, it has more room for three or four people. Or even at the college. The only trouble with going up to Weber is you’ll never find a parking space. LR: Then when you find one you still have to walk a ways. SI: A mile or something. LR: And it’s all uphill. SI: Hey, let me tell you about walking uphill, I used to live on Wall Avenue and went to Central which was on Monroe. We used to walk that sucker every day. I tell my kids that and they say, “Yeah, yeah, through five feet of snow.” I’d say, “You got it.” They never believed me. LR: That’s the best part about telling your kids. Thank you so much, Mr. Ichida. We really appreciate it. 23