Oral History Program Herman Jones Interviewed by Deborah M. George 27 March 2014 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Herman Jones Interviewed by Deborah M. George 27 March 2014 Copyright © 2014 by Weber State University, Stewart Library Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description The New Zion Community Advocates worked with community members age 80 years and older to have contributed to the history of Ogden city. The interviews looked at the legacy of the interviewees through armed services, work, social life, church, NAACP and educational systems in an environment where their culture was not predominant. This program has received funding from the Utah Humanities Council and the Utah Division of State history. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Jones, Herman, an oral history by Deborah M. George, 27 March 2014, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, Special Collections, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Herman and Hazel Jones, photo taken at their home on March 27, 2014 Serrelle’s Charity Club ca. 1980 Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Herman and Hazel Jones conducted on March 27, 2014 by Deborah George. DG: Alright tell me your name. HaJ: Mr. and Mrs. Herman Jones or should I say Herman and Hazel. Jones? DG: Alright and tell me your birthday. HeJ: My birthday is August 6, 1921. HaJ: I was born May 8, 1932. DG: And are we related at all? We always ask that question. HaJ: No, I don’t think so. DG: Alright well tell me what are you doing now? HaJ: What are we doing now? Well Herman and I both have some health problems. We are just taking life one day at a time. And thank God’ we are still in the land of the living. DG: Alright. HeJ: I retired from the Railroad in 1981 after thirty-nine years, and just retired from my second job with the Ogden Golf and Country Club after another twenty-eight. DG: Alright so tell me about some of the most important lessons you’ve learned in life. Things that you know you could pass on to somebody and tell them about? HeJ: You see I came from a large family. It was six boys and three girls, I am the fourth child. My parents taught us to love one another and to love family. I grew up on a big farm. The Jones’ and the Tillman’s was a big family. I enjoyed growing up with my sister and brothers and all my cousins. 1 If I could pass one lessons on to people it would be to love your family and friends. A family and friends is a clan held together with the glue of love and the cement of mutual respect. A family is a group of human beings who care about each other…and feel comfortable with each other. Like all groups of human beings with frailties, families will taunt and fight and bicker among each other. But when trouble threatens from outside the clan, there is an instant closing of ranks against the outsiders. DG: Now where was the farm? HaJ: Herman is originally from Helfin, Louisiana. DG: Is that H-E-F-L-I-N. HaJ: Yes. DG: Okay. HeJ: We would have ten or twelve bales of cotton a year, two or three bales of peanuts. A couple of loads of sweet potatoes, and white potatoes, We had a large potatoes bin, We had potatoes all winter. My father would killed eight or nine hogs and two or three cows a year. We had a smokehouse were they would stored the meat. DG: So you pretty much grew all your own food from the land and farm. HeJ: Yes, We also had a big gravel pit, my mother sold quite a bit of gravel off the place anywhere from four to five lodes of gravel ship out every day. DG: So tell me what was the proudest moment of your life? When were you most proud do you think? HaJ: You’ll have to talk a little louder he don’t hear very well. 2 DG: Okay. Tell me what you most proud of in your life? HeJ: I would have to say when I had my first child. I was thirty three years old when my first baby was born. My other daughters—being able to provide them with an education, so they could be prepare for all the changes in life. I have seen a lot of changes over the past 92 years, some I could deal with and some I couldn’t, because I did not have an education. I have tried to teach my children to never look down on a person no matter what their condition. That everyone have something to contribute to this world, no matter how large or small. DG: How long have you lived in Ogden? HeJ: I moved here in 1942 and I have been here for sixty two years. DG: What brought you to Ogden? HeJ: I was working at Steel Mill, one day something happen on the job and they tried to blame me for it. It was only two blacks working there at the time. So I thought it was best that I got out before I got into some big trouble. I decided I would come to Utah where my uncle and brothers were. DG: What brought your uncle here? HeJ: My uncle was in Kansas City in 1919 He work for the outfit cars. Then he moved to Pocatello. That when my aunt came out to be with him. I guess he gave up the outfit car and stared working for the dinner car department. He and the family moved to Ogden. DG: So your uncle brought you out here because of the job opportunities? HeJ: No, my brothers were here one came in 1936 and one 1940. That is why I decided to come out this way. 3 DG: Okay HeJ: After I was hired on the dinner car, I could have gone to Los Angeles, Denver or Omaha, Nebraska to work. Five districts needed men at the time. I chose to stay in Ogden. I had family here. Ogden was pretty much the same as Louisiana, very segregated. I was used to the segregation. HaJ: When I first came to Ogden from Los Angeles, I thought I was in the pits of Hell. Everything was so different from what I was used to. It was very hard for me to except segregation. But things got a little better when I made a few friends. DG: How has it change over the years? HeJ: I have seen a lot’s of changes through the years. Black America was not allowed to eat in restaurants, they were not allowed in hotels, or clubs. We could only rent or buy homes, between Wall Ave. and Lincoln Ave. from 22sd to 30th street and that about as far as a black person could go. Black people now can rent and buy any place in the state. Other changes when I came to Ogden, it was a lot’s of farm land in the surround towns. Now all that is homes, shopping centers, malls, factory and building. Washington Terrace was a old army barrack doing the war for family that work second street. It was converted to homes in 1954-55. DG: What do you miss most about the way it used to be? HeJ; Back in the day people seem to care about each other more. Now everyone is so busy. We just don’t take time to socialize any moor, We just don’t take time to visit the sick 4 Or visit with each other. When we were younger, friends were friends. If they had $1.00 you could get .50c. Now day’s people don’t care. They can see you hunger and want give you a piece of bread. DG: Who was some of the great characters from here? HeJ: I don’t know any from Ogden. But doing my traveling I have met some of the world’s greatest. People like President Roosevelt, Harry Truman, Eisenhower, Ralph (Tip) O Neal, Thurgood Marshall, Roy Wilkins. From the sports world. Joe Lewis, Jackie Robinson, Abdul Jabbar. Music Stars, Duke Ellington, Lewis Armstrong, Nat King Cole, Sammy Davis Jr. Movie Stars, Rita Haywood, Gloria Swenson, John Wayne, Jerry Lewis, Clark Gable. And the list go no of the Rich and famous I mat. DG: Do you remember any great story are legends about our town. HaJ: Ogden so many legends, and most of them was true. Lower 25th Street was once one of the most Notorious places in America. It was call Two-Bit-Street. There was a place between 25th and 24th street call Electric Alley. There were row of house that was like a little motel. These little houses had one room in them. Just large enough for a bed and small kitchen, No bathrooms, No running water. This was a haven for Prostitute. Gambling, Murder, Boot lag alcohol, All kinds of illegal things going on. Some of this I personal witnessed. It was a crazy time in Ogden. HeJ: my brother’s wife, my sister-law Mattie Jones was murdered in 1956. I believe a white policeman killed her. Her body was found about four weeks after she disappeared. 5 HaJ: This happen October 1956, some duck hunters found the body in West Ogden near the old Ogden city dump, off 24th street, the police never solver the case. HeJ: My reason for saying a Policeman was involve. Marshall White was on the force at the time, I could never get him to talk with me about the case. When I would try to talk with him, he would tell me that he was busy. I said to him one night, that I thought he knew that one of his friends on the force had killed her. The policeman that was involved was killed later. Doc White was killed two. DG: Who were your best friends? What were they like? HeJ: I had lots of friends. Roscoe Howard, Carl Bunn, Paul Willis, Willie B. Daniels, Ralph Brooks, Jim Gillespie, Charles Wilson, John Hayes, My best friend was my brother-law, we were friends growing up in Heflin as boy as boys before he married my oldest sister, just to name a few. Differ personality for sure, but we enjoyed each other when we got together. HaJ: My best friends was Lucille Lovette, Leetha Johnson, Helen Knox, Hazel McEwen, Tommie L. Bunn, Glendale Wilson, Merle Holston, My running buddy was Gladys Dockery. She and I work together for years. She lives in Arkansas now, but we stay in touch. DG: What did you do for fun? HaJ: There was not much for black people to do in Ogden. We created lots of Charity and Social Club for entertainment. I was a member of the The Friendship Chairty league, The Serrelles Social Club, Daughters of Elks, The American Legion Auxiliary, and Alph-Kapp-Alph Sorority. Herman, were a charter Member of Pioneer Post #66 organize in 1943, and the only living charter member. A 6 member of Bee Hive lodge of Elks No 407. The Union Pacific Old Times Club #6, And we both or members of the New Zion Baptist Church for over fifty years. I have some pictures and information that may be of help to you. DG: Okay, great, Oh wow this is so wonderful. Can we scan these? HaJ: yes you may, But I would like to have them back. DG: We’ll get them before we go. HeJ: You see, every week-end someone were having party or get together some were in Ogden, Layton, Salt Lake City, are someone would rent a place and have a big dance. Everyone would be there. We had family picnics in the summer with all the children and adults The Old Mill, There was a camp ground up Weber Canyon call the Wagon wheel. We used to have some big picnic up there. People would come from Salt Lake, Hill Air Force Base and around the valley. Though were the days. HaJ: Herman and I both have received many Awards and Certificates from services in these organizations. We both were very active through the years. DG: What are your memories of grade school/high school? HeJ: Meeting George Washington Carver when I was about fourteen. He came to our school to teach the young boys tailoring. As a project we made a bed matters, I never dream that some day he would make history. But of course I never dream that I would see a black man in the White House as president. DG: How did you meet your wife/husband? HeJ: We both were on our way to work in October 1951. I was running from Salt Lake to Butte Montana and had to ride the Bamberger, She and her girl friend were on 7 their way to work Hazel was working at the Ogden Arsenal. I gave her money to play the baseball pool at work. HaJ: My friend Gladys and I started talking with him and another guy. Herman wanted to know who I was, were did I come from, my life history. I thought he was very nosey. Yes he give me some big money $2.00 WOW!! I was just being nice by talking with him. We were married July 18, 1952, sixty two years together. DG: How has being a parent change you. HaJ: When you are only responsible for yourself and you have children that you must take care of. Your life style changes, the children should always come first. If it was a choice of buying for myself are the kids. My baby’s always came first with me. It was just part of being a parent. DG: What did you do for a living? HeJ: I spent thirty nine years cooking. Retired as a chief cook in 1981 DG: So you had to go whenever they needed you. HaJ: Right, I basically raised the girls by myself. We could not depend on him to be home for anything. Holidays, birthdays, PTA meetings, school activates, church activates. I basically raised the girls by myself. With four girls it kept me pretty busy. The girls and I just kind of live our lives around his job. DG: Were you out of town a lot? HeJ: Yes, I was put on as the troubleshooter would come in at night, early the next morning, I would get a call, someone was unable to come to work. My wife had to keep my clothes ready for me. When they call, I had to pack my bag. It was so bad at one time. I hated to hear the phone ring. I knew it was the commissary 8 calling. There were times I have had to do a triple trip. Back to back that meant I was going for about fifteen to eighteen days at a time. DG: Go get your bag. HeJ: When I became a chief cook back in the sixty’s a lot’s of the older cooks in age but not in work years. Did not want to work under me, I told the boss let them be the Manager. Whoever was in charge, had to be responsible for the menu for everyday, planning and overseeing food preparation. It was a big responsibility. I was the one getting the chief pay, so let him have the headaches, it was okay with me. DG: Smart man. HeJ: In the 1979 when the U.P. passenger train, stop running I was on the last run from Chicago, Ill to Los Angeles. We had to take a plane back to Utah. Then I went to work for the outfit car, cooking for the guys that work on the tracks. Idaho, Nevada, Montana, Wyoming, Colorado and Utah. I had to buy food for 15 or 25 men feed breakfast, lunch and dinner. Keep records of how many meals they ate, figure out how much they meal ticket was every two week. Keep track of time card. Most of the guys were from Mexico and could not speak English. It was jest hell out there. One of the happiest days fo my life was the day retired. DG: So were you ever in the military at all? HeJ: Oh yeah. HaJ: He was in the Army. HeJ: I quit the railroad for awhile, and went to Hill Field and work for a few months. Then I decided to go back to the railroad. Just back to work a few months when 9 Uncle Sam said I need you. I had to report to Camp Wolters, Texas. Company “B” Infantry Training Battalion March 8, 1943. Now you talk about a hell hole Camp Walters was one. We was out in the field weeks at a time, we had to movie around from place to place. Sometime we would just get camp set up and we would have to take down the tents again. It would be raining so hard you would be sore from the rain beating on you. We had to break camp to movie on. You slept on the ground, with all kinds of snakes and bugs, we was out in the swamp. A lot of guys died in basic training from snake bites. These were thing family never knew about. After service I return to my job on the railroad. I was put on a hospital train. Transporting wound solders to hospital throughout the country. I have seen it all and experience thing that some people will never see. Frozen body’s, missing legs and arms, missing eyes, I seen it all. DG; Yes you have. HeJ: Also haul the Japanese and Italian prisoners, doing world War II. They had a Italian prisoners camp here in plain city, My Italian neighbor use to tell me about how they was treated doing the war. He and his brother and sisters was born in American. But his parents were from Italy. DG: Oh my you was right in the thick of it. HeJ: You seen it all and don’t want to live that again. DG: Wow. DG: So how did those war experiences change you? Do you think it changed you any. 10 HeJ: not really, I was just cooking, working in the dining car. I did not work with the patients. It was just like cooking in a hospital. DG: Right but seeing that didn’t bother you much then? HeJ: You see them and feel sorry for them. And then you thank God’ it not you laying there. DG: You just did what you had to. HeJ: When I was fifteen, my mother got sick. I had to stay home to take care of her and cook for my young brothers and sisters. I remember I had to cut wood to keep the big pot boiling, that how we clean cloths. And in 1978 my mother and father lost everything when a tornado hit Heflin, Both of my was disable at the time. That both suffer for months from injury receive in the storm. receive bad injury, My older sister was bedridden for a few years and her husband along with two other brothers. And I help take care of them before they passed away. DG: You was a good brother. DG: What did you learn from this time in your life? HeJ: Just be thankful. I am ninety three years old, and have been blessed. My health was fairly good until a few years ago, I have had a wonderful life with my wife and daughters. My wife and I have had the pleasure of crisis crossing American. From Portland, Oregon to Florida, from Main, to California. We have enjoyed several cruses over the years. I have enjoyed my children growing up, cookouts, and family gatherings. My wife have been a very good help mate a very good mother and grandmother. And I am very proud because she was both Mom and 11 Dad most of the time. I know that I don’t tell her often how much I appreciate her for been in my life. She is truly the Wind beneath My Wings. 12