Oral History Program Joe Robles Interviewed by Alyssa Kammerman 10 March 2021 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Joe Robles Interviewed by Alyssa Kammerman 10 March 2021 Copyright © 2025 by Weber State University, Stewart Library Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description The Hill/DDO’95 oral history project documents the 1995 and 2005 Base Realignment and Closure (BRAC) process and its impact on Utah. In 1993, rumors started to circulate that Hill Air Force Base and Defense Depot Ogden (DDO) would be closed by the 1995 round of BRAC, causing state officials, local government, and local grassroots lobbying group, Hill/DDO’95, to spring into action to save Utah’s military installations from closure or realignment to other facilities. This project includes interviews from a wide range of players, from congressmen, state officials, members of Hill/DDO’95, and the civilian employees of Hill Air Force Base and (DDO). Their accounts describe the process of fighting for the base, the closure of DDO, the formation of the Utah Defense Alliance (UDA) and Military Installation Development Authority (MIDA) from the Hill/DDO’95 group, and their fight to save Hill Air Force Base all over again in 2005. Also discussed is the importance of the F-35 aircraft and the “Falcon Hill” Enhanced Use Lease project to the prosperity of Hill Air Force Base and military relations in Utah. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Robles, Joe, an oral history by Alyssa Kammerman, 5 June 2017, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Joe Robles March 2021 Abstract: This is an oral history interview with Joe Robles. It was conducted on March 10, 2021 at Weber State University Stewart Library. Robles recounts his time working as Defense Depot Ogden’s first civilian deputy commander. He discusses DDO’s experience with the 1995 Base Realignment and Closure. Robles recalls the process of closing DDO and preparing it for its transformation into Business Depot Ogden. The interviewer is Alyssa Kammerman. Also in the room is Sarah Langsdon. AK: Today is March 10th, 2021. We are speaking with Joe Robles for the BRAC 1995 project. My name is Alyssa Kammerman and I'll be conducting the interview. With me is Sarah Langston. So, just starting out, I just wanted to ask a little bit about your history at DDO. When did you start working there, and what were some of the positions that you held around BRAC 1995? JR: I started in 1967 at DDO as a wage grade-1 laborer. Then I went into the Army and I came back and became a warehouseman and a forklift operator and started going to night school at Weber and transferred to Hill in I think about '71. I worked in receiving as a forklift driver and graduated from college, then I got a break and jumped from wage grade to GS and worked my way up. AK: So, when you worked at Hill, did you work on base? JR: Yes, from 1971 until merging with DDOU in 1991. In 1991, DOD did a supply depot consolidation with DLA. The distribution functions at Hill, which I was a part of, transferred under the management of DDOU. What DLA did was absorb all the supply and distribution functions of all the services. So, at all bases in the United States, DLA became responsible for the supply and distribution. I can't 1 remember exactly how many depots there were, but there was maybe a couple of dozen. Hill was one of them and also Tooele Army Depot. In 1993, Tooele got put onto the BRAC list. We closed Tooele in 1995 and Kathy Mallis, who was the deputy at Tooele, transferred to DDOU and became the BRAC transition coordinator. AK: “Transition” because DDO was closing? JR: Right. Kathy was the interface with the commander and I, as well as DLA headquarters and the reuse people and Mike Pavich. She was the intermediary that did all of the BRAC hands-on work. She was the focal point for everything BRAC. AK: Ok. You mentioned that you were the deputy commander at DDO? JR: Right. During the supply depot consolidation, all of my people and everything we did transferred under the management of DDO. At the time, I didn't transfer—I can't remember who the general at Hill was at the time. I don't think it was Gen. Lyles. Could have been Gen. Bergrin, or could have been Gen. Condon—They insisted that they have a focal point between the Air Force and DLA. DLA didn't want one, but the general insisted on it. So, I was that person. I was paid by the Air Force, but I reported for duty to DDO. Eventually, Captain Curry, who was a Navy and DDOU commander, wanted me to transfer to DLA. This was at the beginning of BRAC, and so I did physically transfer from the Air Force to DLA and became the deputy commander. So, I was the first civilian deputy commander at DDO; It was always a military 0-6 prior to me. November of 1993 is when they promoted me to that position. 2 AK: OK, so I'm realizing, I think my knowledge of depots is kind of limited. So, DLA is the Defense Logistics Agency, correct? JR: Right. AK: It sounds like they deal with all of the branches of the military? JR: They do. AK: So, DDO was under their jurisdiction? JR: Right. AK: Did DDO do Army and Navy as well? JR: They were originally an Army depot, but they evolved into—DDO had tents and it had all kinds of Army assets. The distribution function at Hill stored things that were mostly for the Air Force. Assets for all the weapons systems, aircraft, missiles, Peacekeeper and Minuteman, everything. When we consolidated, people still stayed at Hill to support the Air Force. The DDO people stayed at DDO, but we consolidated the management functions. So, we reported to the commander of DDO when we first consolidated. DLA was responsible for all the supply and distribution for all the services. AK: So, there was a depot on base as well as depot work at DDO? JR: Right. At Hill, at DDO, and Tooele before it closed. People stayed in place and still did the mission, it's just the management that consolidated. They figured they could save money doing that. Then they came up with the Defense Standard System where everybody had the same computer system to do the supply and distribution. In fact, we were the first depot to implement the Defense Standard System. 3 AK: Ok, interesting. So, you kind of talked about it a little bit, but as the deputy what was your specific job description? JR: My job description was, I reported to the commander and I was responsible for taking care of Hill distribution and Ogden distribution and everything that went with it. Because at Ogden we were a full-up installation, we had an officer’s club and a gym and tenants, and we had DEPMEDS. That's the Army Deployable Medical Systems. We also rented a building to IRS. It was a full-up base and I was responsible for all of it, under the commander. We had 2,200 people at one time. It was a fun and challenging job. Then when they threw BRAC on top of it, it wasn't so fun. AK: When the Tooele Army Depot closed down, did that change the way that people at DDO or in the DLA approached BRAC 1995? JR: Only that they had knowledge of how BRAC worked. Like Kathy, when she came over, she was invaluable. When they closed the distribution functions at Tooele, they offered a $25,000 early retirement incentive and a lot of people took that. We had vacancies at both Hill and DDO and we absorbed some of those people through priority placement. I really don't remember the numbers of how many people involuntarily separated, but it was a very, very small number because with priority placement, you can go to work anywhere in the United States or overseas if there's a vacant position. You have priority to fill that position, and they pay your moving costs. So, when we closed Tooele, a lot of people came to Hill, a lot of people came to DDO, and there was a lot of people who took the early-out. The people 4 that came from Tooele, they'd been through BRAC. There's a lot to BRAC. You've got to move all the material somewhere. It was a huge job to shut down DDO. AK: So, the reason why I asked if it kind of helped you change tactics is, General Lyles had mentioned how BRAC ’93 was kind of a wake-up call and helped people realize that nobody's safe from BRAC. JR: Right. AK: Was there a sense of that at all with the workers at DDO? JR: You know, they didn't believe it could happen. DDO was probably the most efficient depot in DLA. All the numbers showed that they were the most efficient depot. Somewhere along the line there was politics involved. There's politics involved in everything. Before I got there, there had been some bad blood for a lot of years between DLA headquarters and DDO, and I think they kind of wanted to close DDO. A couple of the people tried to turn this thing around because the numbers didn't make sense. The people didn't believe DDO could close. "We're the best depot. We got all the best numbers. How can they close us?" You know? They didn't believe it until the last day. AK: That kind of answered my other question, which was: DDO was so valuable when it was first built because it was in “the crossroads of the west” and it had access to all these different bases. So, why did it close, if it was at such a prime location? Did it have anything to do with the railroads not being as active in 1992? 5 JR: We didn't move much stuff by railroad anyway. You might get a big railroad car full of tents or something. When we BRAC’d, we were using UPS and FedEx and we were also using the Air Force at Hill. We had everything at our disposal. We flew tents to Bosnia on UPS and FedEx. We didn't use the Air Force because it was slower and more expensive. We were breaking ground in that area. Plus, you're finding out from where they want to put the inland port that this is a central location and very effective place to have a transportation hub. So yeah, politics closed DDO. You ask a question, “Did they sacrifice DDO for Hill?” I don't know. There might have been some behind-the-scenes stuff, but I don't know. I wasn't privy to that. Who would be privy to that would be Jim Hansen, Orrin Hatch, Bennett, who's not with us anymore, Leavitt. They were all heavily involved. They would have been behind the scenes and they'd know if that happened. AK: Yeah, that makes sense. Others we talked to said, “No it wasn't a trade-off at all,” but. JR: Of course they're going to say that. But, you know. That's one of the reasons I went ahead and transferred to DDO. I didn't have to. I had a choice. But I couldn't leave my people, so that's really the reason. AK: So, tell me a little bit about some of the "Support DDO" things that you were allowed to do? JR: Management wasn't encouraged to participate in that. That had to be totally Rick Winn and Pam Lanier and all the people that wanted to. We were really not 6 supposed to do that. That was a "no-no." The workers pretty much did that on themselves, officially. Now, Russ LeBaron got a bit more involved in that than he should have, and he got his hands slapped a couple of times, but he didn't care. He was an O6 with a lot of years and a lot of seniority and he had a lot of clout. Russ was a people person and he said, "Joe, you got a career ahead of you. You just back off and do the business and I'll do this," and he did. It was a good effort, but it was for naught. I really don't know the number of people that were involved. A busload went to Albuquerque, I know that. AK: Okay, tell me about that. I know that's a bit later, after the closure was announced, but I am curious about that story because I just saw something about it in the newspaper. JR: They went to Albuquerque and did their thing and they pleaded DDO’s case. I’m pretty sure Mike Pavich gave a briefing, and our congressional staff—at least Bennett and Hansen. Mike probably told you about that. I didn't go, so I don't know what really went on down there, other than the congressional staff made a pitch for DDO, and our people went down and tried to wave flags and dress in green and say, "Save DDO." That's all I really know. If you could find Rick or Pam, they could give you a lot more insight. Maybe even Russ LeBaron. AK: Do you know why they dressed in green? JR: I think it had to do with that green dinosaur, you know? "Don't go extinct." I remember they said something about, "Let's not make DDO go extinct.” 7 AK: Ok. That is good to know, I didn't realize that. So, there was the group, Hill/DDO'95, that eventually turned into the Utah Defense Alliance. Do you know, did DDO have its own group? Like did Rick Winn start his own DDO group, per se, or was he just one who kind of had people come support? JR: It was just his own group. It was just a bunch of people that wanted to have their voice heard, and they did it on their own time. They took leave when they went to Albuquerque, and they had to do it on their own time. AK: Do you know if they were affiliated with the Hill/DDO’95 group? JR: With Mike Pavich and Company? You'd have to ask Mike. AK: Ok. Yeah, I was just curious if DDO had its own lobbying group or if it was— JR: I mean, we, of course, worked with Mike all the time. Myself, the commander, Kathy Mallis, we worked with those people constantly. Went to all the same meetings and were heavily involved. But in terms of the politics behind it, no, we weren't part of that. AK: That's interesting to me because I had heard that military staff basically couldn't be involved at all in "Save the Base" efforts. JR: Right. AK: But you were technically a civilian. JR: I was a civilian, but I still wasn't supposed to get involved. We were pretty much told off the record to "Keep your nose out of it, do your work." You do what you're supposed to do in terms of providing the data and doing all that stuff before the closure's announced, but then after the closure's announced, you close the depot. Period. No ifs, ands or buts. 8 AK: Were there ever any briefings that you did to help your employees stay up to date on the progress of BRAC? JR: Oh yeah, we did it all the time. We were always giving briefings on the progress of BRAC, as much as we could. The minute all this process started, we set up a weekly BRAC meeting. "This is what we have to do to close the DDO," you know? Before the closure was announced, of course, we did all the things, provided all the info. "This is what we do. This is how many we ship and issue." We did all the briefings to the congressional people. The BRAC Commission came out there several times. The congressional staff came out there several times. So it was, "This is what we do. This is how great we are. You shouldn't close us." That was all legal. You could do all that stuff. We made sure the depot was beautiful and the buildings were beautiful and we pounded our chest and said, "We're great. You shouldn't close us." But then after, it was announced that we had a lot of work to do. That's when we started the weekly BRAC briefings. There were action items but there was nothing discussed in those meetings except BRAC. Nothing else. That wasn't part of our staff meetings. We went through the action items. We had, you know, fifty or sixty warehouses full of material that had to be moved and we had to figure out where to send it. We tried to send the Navy stuff to the Navy and the Army stuff to the Army and Air Force stuff to the Air Force and all the rest of it to the other DLA depots. So yeah, all that material had to go somewhere. 9 We sent a lot to Hill because we had capability at Hill, we had warehouse space at Hill, so anything that had to do with the Air Force went to Hill. Plus a lot of little, bitty items went to Hill because we had what we called the Automated Storage Module and it was all computer driven. 18 aisles and these machines went and picked the stock and it was all computer-driven. We had some room for a lot of the small stuff out there. We had to empty those warehouses. AK: You mentioned that some of that workload that you used to have at DDO was like the mobile Army hospital units. What other workload from DDO had to be transferred? Do you know specifically what there was? JR: I don't remember all of them. We refurbished bearings and there was some electronic work done and DEPMEDS and tent repair. A lot of the tent repair went with DEPMEDS. In fact, DEPMEDS was pretty key. That's a real critical Army mission. They're deployable hospitals. Like, remember MASH? These are deployable hospitals. In other words, they come in these big Conexes and you basically ship all these Conexes, and you get these Conexes and it basically unfolds into an Army hospital. All the drugs included—Well, the drugs met up with it, because a lot of them were controlled substances and had to be refrigerated. But all the tents, the cots, the surgical instruments, the bedding, the uniforms, everything was in those mobile hospitals. It was pretty amazing, actually, and it was a real critical DOD mission. So, the Army had to find someplace to put that mission because that was really critical. I'd worked for the Air Force a long time and I was a pretty high rank and had a lot of connections at Hill, and I worked with the facilities people and 10 found a sighting for DEPMEDS. It's on the north end of the 1200 area of Hill, and there's a railroad spur there because they'd use the railroad, and we did get a sighting approved and we built a building for DEPMEDS. That was critical, you know? They're out there to this day. We didn't get DEPMEDS off DDO property when it closed in 1997. It took a while to get the building built. All that takes time. Then we did move the mission to Hill and it's there today. AK: Along those lines, I don't know if you know numbers specifically, but how many DDO workers transferred to the depot that was on base? JR: When we closed DDO? I saw the number 800 in this book were separated, but that’s not right. Again, we offered priority placement to any place in DOD. If you were RIF'ed—and a lot of people were RIF'ed into vacancies at our depot at Hill—but if you didn't have a placement, if you were out the gate, you would have priority placement. A lot of people took priority placement around the United States. Some even went to Europe, it seems like, and I think we had somebody go to Japan, somebody go to Hawaii. You got priority to be placed in those positions if you qualify. We did offer the $25,000, again, for early retirement, and you basically would lose two percent a year for every year you were under 55 years old. Then you'd get that retirement and they'd give you $25,000. A lot of people took it. Then a lot of people transferred to Hill, and we did something else. We worked with the personnel people at Hill, and they had a lot of people that wanted to retire, so we made a deal—we had to do this through all the legal channels—if you were an Air Force employee and you qualified for the early 11 retirement, you could take the early retirement, we would pay the $25,000 out of our funds, and they would take that position and put it in a pool, and they let our people come over. They restructured those positions. I mean, they turned GS12s into GS-5s. It was a tremendous effort. Beth Coreless was the chief of personnel and we worked with her real close on that. We placed a lot of people. That saved a lot of people's jobs, and it let the Hill people retire and take their twenty-five grand. Some of these people were 60 years old, and thought, "Hell, I'll retire now. Get that twenty-five grand," you know. "This is some incentive!" A lot of people had been waiting for that to happen at Hill and it just hadn't happened. I really wish I could remember the numbers that actually separated, but it wasn't that many. I know there's another question in here that asked what efforts we made to help the people. We set up a Personnel Outplacement Center at DDO and we set one up at Hill. In fact, we hired through a special contract some staffing people that had retired from the Air Force, and we hired them and put them in those centers because they knew all about personnel. They were open all day long, our employees could go to those personnel outplacement centers, and ask any question, and those people were great. We got a lot of people placed that way, too. So, we did everything humanly possible to get jobs for those people. I got to say, there wasn't a big number involuntarily separated. I wished I could remember what it was, but it wasn't huge. AK: That means just basically they just quit without – 12 JR: In other words, you don't have a job tomorrow. But it was a small number between priority placement, between the restructuring, the jobs, and our people going into them, and the incentive retirement. All of those different ways, we got a lot of people jobs. In fact, the grade structure at Hill is a lot better than it was at DDO. I know a lot of people to this day that were GS-7s at DDO, came to Hill, and retired as GS-12s or 13s. So yeah, sad to close DDO, but the people that did move to Hill did very well. It was a good career move. It was pretty heartwrenching at the time, but it turned out to be a pretty good career move. AK: So, we spoke with Ernie Parada who was from McClellan, and he talked about kind of how over at McClellan when they closed, there was a bit of a concern for mental health and wellness for a lot of the employees that were affected. Did DDO or DLA have any kind of program for people who maybe were feeling discouraged or depressed? You know, resources for counseling and such? JR: We did. I don't remember how exactly it worked, but it worked through the Personnel Outplacement Center. We had a civilian personnel office at DDO right up till the end, and yeah, there was a mechanism, but I don't remember exactly how it worked. But there was a mechanism to get people help if they needed it. SL: So, I want to go back a bit. As the civilian deputy commander at DDO, what were the BRAC Commissioner visits like for you? How did you prepare for them? JR: Well, we basically prepared briefings that showed what we did, how we did it, and how good we did it. Again, we showed them our best. We took them on tours out in the area, we took them through warehouses, we showed them, you know, all of our automation and how it worked. We wined and dined them at the officer's 13 club and we showed them DEPMEDS. We just basically were showing them how good we were. We met a lot with Orrin Hatch and Hansen and Bennett and Levitt. They were out there all the time. We put on a good dog and pony show, we really did. Behind the scenes, there were a lot of people that were involved in the BRAC Commission that really couldn't believe we were closing. SL: What about the community response out at DDO? Like when the commissioners came in May of '95 and December of '94? JR: Well, the May '95 one, that's when we did the really fancy dog and pony shows. In '94, I don't know whether we did all that. Oh, and Glen Mecham was involved in all of that, too. You guys know who Glenn Mecham is? SL: He was the mayor. JR: Yeah. SL: What was the feeling like on base when the recommendations came out and DDO was on the list to close? JR: Disbelief. I knew it was going to happen, the commander knew it was going to happen. We could read the tea leaves, what was going on behind the scenes. We knew. Because DLA headquarters was not rooting for us, and we aligned to what they called Region West, and they weren't rooting for us. I mean, we knew it was going to happen, and we were seeing the different reports that came in and how they were ranking us in greatness and they were changing stuff, and we knew it was going to close. But the people were surprised. 14 We called an all-hands meeting out in front of the headquarters building, and Colonel Brecisia was the commander at that time. About as many people as possible scattered in front of the building, and we had a lot of people. He just said, "The announcement's made." We answered as many questions as we could and there was a lot of disbelief. We started having Q and As and we just scheduled all the different organizations and thousands of people and we did it for weeks and weeks and weeks. The commander and I sat there and took all the shots and there were, you know, unhappy people and mad people and "What are we going to do?" We did brief every single person—well, if they showed up. We had an open-door policy: "Come on out if you need to ask us your questions." I had one guy come up into my office in tears and he had got a separation letter. This basically had been riding on him for a couple of months, and we hadn't closed yet, and he hadn't told his wife and he didn't know what to do. It was really sad. Anyway, he ended up getting saved, which I do remember, because there are a lot of iterations to a RIF. But there was a lot of tears, a lot of sadness, a lot of disbelief, a lot of anger. A lot of anger, we took, as you can imagine. AK: I have one more question, kind of bouncing off of what she was saying about the community support: A lot of people from Hill Air Force Base feel like community support was part of what helped save the Air Force Base. What did you specifically do to kind of help the community know why DDO was important to save? 15 JR: Well, our community involvement, of course, was with the mayor. I mean, we weren't down in Ogden giving briefings and beating our drums, but a lot of people that worked at DDO lived in Ogden and lived in the community. A lot of people that had retired from DDO, had family at DDO. So, the community around the area really knew DDO and really knew what we did and really knew we were important. Of course, we had all the support from them that was needed, but the main support we had was the congressional staff. I mean, bottom line, they were the main support we had, [shrugs] and that wasn't good enough. AK: Do you feel like community support was important to the BRAC commissioners? JR: No, I don't. I mean, the numbers tell the tale. We did do some studies on economic impact, you know, to the surrounding community. I don't have those numbers with me, but yeah, we did provide all that. That was all part of the briefings, was the economic impact. I mean, that's pretty easy to figure when you count how many people and wages, etcetera. So yeah, we did provide that. But no, I don't think community support played a role in the BRAC decision. It was all politics and all numbers. AK: You don't have to answer this question if you don't want to, but what were some of the political overtones that you saw through BRAC? You said that you feel like politics is what closed DDO as opposed to numbers. Would you tell me a little more about what you saw with that? JR: Through the process, okay, the rules and criteria kept changing because our numbers were too good. So, DLA headquarters and DDRW, the West, criteria kept changing throughout the process. It changed more than one time. Kathy 16 Mallis, please ask her this question and tell her what I said about the criteria changing through the process. They wanted us to close. Period. The headquarters did. AK: Okay. I'm just making a note of that so I remember to ask her. JR: I mean, there's a quote in this book, "March 8th, 1995: Major General Lawrence Farrell," he was a biggie at DLA headquarters, "said that 1993 study rating Ogden as the highest, was because the DDO had what DLA called, 'the active small line items’, and the other depots had big, ugly stuff. As a result, DLA did not use the study when it was decided which depots they would keep." Because we killed on efficiency and they threw that out. AK: Did they give a reason ever? Or did they just say, "You're closed?" JR: No. Well, they said it wasn't fair because we dealt in a lot of active small line items and so that made our numbers look good. But that wasn't true, because all the depots had active small line items. We had a lot of big, ugly stuff, too. We had pipe and tents and oil, and, you know, that's a big ugly too. AK: Yeah. Thank you, that's good to know, and I know that was kind of a loaded question, sorry [laughs]. JR: Well, it was. I mean, it was political, and I can't believe Mike Pavich wouldn't have told you that, because he knew it was political, too. AK: So, did you stay with DDO through the entirety of the closure process? JR: Yes. AK: I'm sure it took a few years, right? JR: Yeah. Then I became the deputy commander of the Hill Organizations. 17 AK: OK. What year did DDO finish its closure process? JR: September '97. The only thing that was really left was DEPMEDS. AK: Those are still down there, right? JR: No, DEPMEDS is at Hill. AK: Oh, that's right, you said because you built the building-- JR: We built the building out at Hill. Yeah. DEPMEDS is up and running at Hill. It really worked well. Somewhere along the line, you were going to ask about the reuse. This was probably the most successful BRAC closure in the history of DOD in terms of how efficient the closure was, how we worked with the reuse committee. I don't know if you know, but the property was given to Weber County and Ogden. It was given—the buildings, the property. There was no sale. Have you been out there lately? It was very successful. Didn't want it to happen, broke our hearts, but in the long run, it was very successful. I believe Mike could tell you that it's probably the most successful one in DOD history. Because a lot of places, you got different cities and counties and entities that are overlapping, and they all want their piece of the pie. Well, this one was pretty clean. It's all in Weber County. Plus, the people that were involved just made a big difference. AK: Was that pretty immediate after the closure—having businesses move in there? JR: You'd have to ask Mike how that all worked. Once we closed it, I was out of the process. I was doing business at Hill. Then I worked out there for a few years and then transferred back to the Air Force. I retired working for the Air Force. AK: What did you do for the Air Force, just out of curiosity? 18 JR: I was a division chief over all the manpower—budget for depot maintenance. So, I worked for the Air Force my last two years, maybe three, and retired the day I turned 55. Anyway, the Air Force did treat me good. In fact, General Sullivan was the general when I transferred back, so he had to approve it all. AK: We had an interview with him, too. JR: You did interview him? He's a good guy. Really good guy. SL: So, when did you officially retire? JR: I retired in 2003. SL: OK. So, I was just wondering if you were involved or if you'd seen anything with the BRAC 2005? JR: No. SL: You were gone by then? JR: I was gone. Yeah. I retired in September of 2003. AK: What did you see from a community member perspective with BRAC 2005? Was the community as involved in BRAC 2005 as they were in 1995? JR: I have no idea. Hey, once I left that place, the only time I go up there is to play golf. So, I have no idea. AK: That's fair. So, how do you feel that the closing of DDO affected Northern Utah? I guess you already kind of talked about how you felt like that was a good thing economically. JR: Short term, it was somewhat of an impact because DDO used to bring in a lot of people TDY that used the hotels and the restaurants, and there was a lot of transportation costs that went away with truck lines and all of that. So, short term, 19 there was an impact. But I've got to say, long term, it's probably a lot more lucrative now than it was. With the tax base, it's free property. Now, with all those businesses out there, throwing taxes into Weber County, it's got to be more lucrative. So, it was sad. I mean, it was a great place to work. I really liked it out there for the six years I was out there. Nice, nice people, good organization. I had a great job, and most of the people there did, too. It was kind of more of a family than Hill was because it was smaller. People knew each other. SL: Did you say about 2,200 people worked out there? JR: At one time, between Tooele and DDO and Hill, we probably had around 2,000 people. But then once Tooele closed, it went down. Plus all the tenants. They didn't work for us, but we kind of were responsible for all the IRS people and all the DSAC people and all the different tenants, including the DEPMEDS people and their learning center. SL: Still a large empire. JR: It was a big bunch of people. Yeah. SL: And had been for decades. JR: Had been for decades. I think that when we announced the closure of DDO there was probably 1,200 people right in that area. But I would almost stake anything that it was less than one hundred people that actually were involuntarily separated, which was pretty miraculous. A lot of it was due to the cooperation with Hill, with the Air Force, and the way they restructured positions. 20 AK: So, do you happen to know what workload Hill Air Force Base specifically got from DDO besides the DEPMEDS? JR: Well, they are a separate entity. They're run by the Army. They basically are a tenant at Hill Air Force Base and they were a tenant at DDO. They didn't work for us, they just lived on our base. That's the same as Hill; they're a tenant on Hill Air Force Base. People that work in DEPMEDS were DLA employees, and therefore were DDO employees. The people that built the hospitals, USAMA, the US Army, they oversaw the whole thing. Okay? So, USAMA is a tenet, but they use our people to do the work. That's the better way to explain it. AK: Okay. Was there any other workload that Hill gained from DDO? JR: Just the material that was moved out there. I know there's something else, but I can't put my finger on it. It was mostly the receipt, storage, and issue of material that moved to Hill. It was stored out at DDO, but we moved it over to Hill because we had some warehouse space. AK: Is the Defense Logistics Agency still a thing? I thought I read somewhere that it had dissolved. JR: Mm-hm. No, they're still there. Basically, when I was there, they were the fifth branch of the service. They were on the same line as the Air Force, Army, Navy, Marines, DLA. They were on that line on the org chart. I don't know where they're at now. AK: Okay. They may have been renamed or something like that. JR: Not that I know of. Like I said, when I retired, I retired. In fact, nobody thought I could retire. Everybody said, "He can't retire. He's too Type-A.” But no, I retired. I 21 had lots of offers to go back to work with contractors and I didn't want anything to do with it. I've been enjoying life since 2003. AK: Good for you! What do you feel is the legacy of BRAC in Utah? What’s the impact it's left? JR: It's been so long that there's still probably a sour taste in a lot of people that worked at DDO over it. A lot of them, like I said, benefited in the long run because they retired or they're working out there at a much higher grade. But there's still some sour grapes. I don't know what happened to Rick. I'd be really curious to know what happened to Rick. I think he was one of the ones that transferred to Hill. I'm pretty sure he was. That was so long ago. He would have a different feeling about it, maybe. I don't know. Maybe good things happened to him. I don't know what happened to him in the long run. Just too many people to keep track of. But now I think, you know, other than memories, it's water under the bridge. AK: I know that you retired in 2003, but how did you see Hill Air Force Base prepare for any future BRACs that may come down the line? JR: Well, I really don't know. You know what I'll tell you probably is one of the key things that saves Hill is the Utah Test and Training Range. That's really key in the fighter wings that are attached to Hill and the accessibility of UTA. I mean, that is a biggie. AK: Yeah. A lot of people agree with you. JR: Well, there's nothing in between the base and the range except a bunch of saltwater, a few houses along the way, but not many. Even at Nellis—they've got 22 a good range, too, but I think they've got some restrictions that we don't have. But that's been really key, plus the workloads. Plus, I'll tell you what else is key is Minuteman and Peacekeeper. I don't know if you're aware of it, but they have an active Peacekeeper silo at Hill and a Minuteman silo at Hill. Therefore, training, maintenance, mods to the computer systems and all of that. They don't have that anywhere else. So that's critical, the Peacekeeper and Minuteman. I don't think they’ve closed yet. I just don't see it happening. AK: Well, thank you so much. We really appreciate you taking the time to share your story with us. 23 WEBER STATE UNIVERSITY Stewart Library ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW AGREEMENT This Interview Agreement is made and entered into this __i,:_::O ----- day(s) of by and between the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program (WSUSLOHP) and J(X.,, &zb(l!::> , hereinafter called "Interviewee." Interviewee agrees to participate in a recorded interview, commencing on or about tt:JUM with ffi S !(J: dOd-1, J-/o o1/ time/date, '\.0-W\.,m,-&' This Interview Agreement relates to any and all materials originating from the interview, namely the recording of the interview and any written materials, including but not limited to the transcript or other finding aids prepared from the recording. In consideration of the mutual covenants, conditions, and terms set forth below, the parties hereby agree as follows: 1. 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