Oral History Program Herbert Barnes Interviewed by Mack S. Taft circa 1960s Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Herbert Barnes Interviewed by Mack S. Taft circa 1960s Copyright © 2016 by Weber State University, Stewart Library iii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description The Great Depression in Weber County, Utah, is an Oral History Project by Mack S. Taft for completion of his Master’s Thesis at Utah State University during the summer of 1969. The forty-five interviews address the Great Depression through the eyes of individuals in several different occupations including: Bankers, Laborers, Railroad Workers, Attorneys, Farmers, Educators, Businessmen, Community and Church Leaders, Housewives, Children and Physicians. All of these individuals lived in Weber County from 1929 to 1941. The interviews were based on what they remembered about the depression, how they felt about those events and how it affected their life then and now. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Barnes, Herbert, an oral history by Mack S. Taft, circa 1960s, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. 1 Abstract: This is an oral history interview with Herbert Barnes. Mr. Barnes recalls working in a CC Camp during the Depression, the closure of the Ogden State Bank, and recreation during those years. He also talks about his experiences with peers in the CC camp, and the need to move from one job to another after he left it. The interviewer is Mack Taft. MT: Where did you live during the Depression years? HB: Well, I was living in Hooper at that time. The first that I remember of the Depression as being called such was when the Ogden State Bank was closed. That was the first talk that I remember much about. But I do remember this - that at the time it closed, I had a few dollars in there, and I lost the most of it. I think I only got $3 or $4 out of it, but I thought that I had sustained a very great loss. From that time on, I was conscious of the Depression. MT: What type of work did you do during the Depression years? HB: Well, at the beginning of it, I was rather small. As I remember in 1929, I was still in the grade school and just working with my two uncles - one, Leslie Powers, where I lived, and the other, George Powers. I worked for them in the summer months. During the winter I was, of course, in school. I would do chores both morning and night for either a neighbor or a relative or someone else. MT: During the latter part of the Depression, I understand you went into the CC Camp. Is that correct? HB: Well, I got out of school in 1936, and I looked all around for a job and couldn't find anything that would pay any kind of wages at all, or anything that was work, so that you could even say that you were working. So I had a chance to go into 2 the camp as a local man, and the place that I went first was down at Milford, Utah. I was only there for a short time, and then they transferred me back to Bountiful, from which place I could work in Salt Lake. I went to school there and learned drafting and photography and the things that they had us do. The things that we were doing at that time was working in the State Land Office, and the Federal Land Office, and working plats and things like they do in the county office. We learned how to make these plats so that they could be used in court and so that they would be of service to the Land Management Division. They called it at that time the Division of Grazing. MT: That big project that they had on Bountiful Peak, could you tell me anything about that? HB: Well, I really don't know very much about what the camps were doing in general. I went there once, but our work was entirely in the State Land Office and the Federal Land Office in Salt Lake City. Now, the majority of the boys that were in that camp belonged to a different division entirely. Part of them worked out at Woods Cross Bird Refuge, and a number of others did flood control work on the mountain. There was some planting of trees and brush, but I never was out on any of their projects to see what they had done. I know what the boys were doing at the time that I was there, but we were working when they were working, and during off-times, we went other places. MT: What seemed to give you the most difficulty during the Depression years, clothing or food? 3 HB: Well, neither one was a terrific job, although nobody had any money to spend. Most people didn't have money for luxuries during those days, but since your neighbor didn't have them, you didn't worry much about them either. The main mode of travel during that time had changed to the automobile, but kids didn't have the automobile to run with. The older people had the automobile, and the kids were allowed to drive a little in the daytime, but that was before the driver's license was in effect. So we didn't have to worry about being picked up by the local Highway Patrol. If you could sit behind the wheel and steer it down the road and stop it when you needed to, that's all that was asked. When the driver's license first came out, there were only about two or three questions that they asked. One of them was, do you know how to drive a car? The other was, have you got twenty-five cents to pay for the license? They did expect you, I believe, to be about fifteen or sixteen years old, but they weren't very strict with it at all. As far as I know, I never had to show a driver's license until around the year 1939 or 1940. Nobody ever cared. In fact, if you could find a job for $1,100, it was wonderful. Now, as a kid, I worked mostly in the summers for $1 a week, and my board and usually most of the dollar went into .22 shells, and a few luxuries at the store like candy. Money didn't mean a whole lot because the other kids didn't have any. If the other kids would have had money to spend to go to the shows and go places, it would have meant more. But at that time, if we did get any money we could spare, of course it went into groceries and clothes and the places that it had to go. But everybody had a deal worked out so that they could make a living one way or another. 4 Wages were very, very low. But at the same time, the merchandise that you needed to live on didn't cost much either. MT: What do you remember about the celebrations? HB: Oh, they were a big thing as far as the town was concerned. Usually they'd start between four and five in the morning with the brass band being driven around the town in a wagon, and their tones would carry further in the air. As they drove past the houses, they would wake everybody up, and sometimes they would yell from the wagon to get up and get going. "Let's see you at the celebration in a little while." And then things would usually get going at about 8:30 or 9:00. By 9:00 or shortly after, they would have the program starting, and it would go until noon. At the same time that was going, they would have the kids in their games and things out behind the grandstand. Of course they always had these little places where they sold root beer and Cokes and candy bars. Usually about thirty cents a day was what we spent at one of those places in a day. We spent half our money in the morning, and the other half in the afternoon. That would go then about as far as fifty cents does now. Then in the afternoon, they would have a baseball game and horse races, and they just had a real celebration. Then at night, they had a dance, and they had something to do until the last one home at night was just really dragging, I'll tell you. It was a day back then, and the park was loaded. It seemed like sometimes you'd have to hunt for hours for the one you were looking for, because everyone in the country was there. MT: Did they have regular dances there? 5 HB: Yes, they did, usually on Saturday night. That was a big night, and usually the dances were pretty good. I remember that, at the time, I didn't get in on too many of them, but dances were a big thing back in those years. Another thing that was big, was the plays that the town put on. They would have plays two, three, and four times a month, and the casts would all come from the town there, and would put on those plays. You would get into the play on your budget ticket that you got from the ward. Those budget tickets would cost the family anywhere from $3 to $5, and later on it got up to $10. When it got up to $10, people thought that it was pretty high. But during most of those rough years, the budget ticket for the family was only $3 to $5, and that was for the year and would get you into everything. Of course, the need for money wasn't as great then as it is now because the prices were not the same. As I remember, the Depression wasn't really over until the World War broke. From about 1936 on, it began to get just a little brighter, a little more pick-up in the economy, but it never got into swing until World War II came along. With the war calling for help and for merchandise, the economy picked up. But I would say that it was a good ten or eleven years that the old Depression hung on pretty solid. MT: What did you feel were good results of the Depression? HB: Well, a number of things. People had to learn how to economize. In the early 1920s, money was just a little more plentiful than it was later, and people made some pretty good money in a number of things after World War I. They were beginning to enjoy quite a number of little luxuries, and things were beginning to open up pretty good until the squeeze of 1929, and that affected everybody. A 6 number of people lost their homes and everything that they had, and money became so tight that if anybody had any, they would think twice before they let it go. There wasn't much money spent for quite a number of years. There were a lot of homes lost, a number of businesses lost, and the economy just tightened up to a point that if people had any money, well, they kept it. Those that didn't have it, it was sometimes hard to tell them from the ones that did because nobody was spending much or going many places. As I remember, a vacation then didn't mean that you were going far, and you didn't have very many of them. The automobiles of those days wouldn't take them to California and back in three days like they do now. They went more then on the train. But the train fare then was much cheaper than it is now. Of course the air service hadn't come in yet. If an airplane flew over, everybody would fly out the door to see which way it was going and how big it was. I remember when the radios first came to town. One of the first ones I had a chance to see was over at Thomas Lowe's. We went over there one afternoon and sat very quietly for about two hours and listened to the radio. I guess within the next six to eight months, we had one at our house too, but the radio then was only $25 to $30. That's quite different than it is now, and they didn't have the number of stations that they do now either. Along from about six in the morning, there was cowboy music, the Sons of the Pioneers, and a lot of other cowboy music. It was very popular then when the radio first came out. That was one of the main kinds of music there was on there. We hadn't come into all this jive and rock and this kind of stuff. 7 MT: What other programs did you listen to on the radio at that time? HB: Oh, Amos and Andy was a big one. I can't remember anything hardly about the first radio without Amos and Andy. They were the big ones, and the others I don't remember quite as well now. Maybe if someone mentioned the name, I would remember that too. But right at the minute, it seems that Amos and Andy were the big ones. The Hit Parade was also a big thing. As I remember that, it started along about 1934 or 1935, and by the time it got up to 1937 and 1938, that was quite a big thing. The Hit Parade usually went up about 10 songs, and later it went up to about 20 or more. But they had lots of things that are still played today that used to be on the Hit Parade. About everybody listened to that in the evening. MT: What are some of the big bands that you remember back at that time? HB: Well, I really don't remember any. I know them well enough when I hear them, but I've never been musically inclined enough to remember them. Dorsey is one we used to hear a lot. MT: What about the White City Ballroom? Did you ever go over there? HB: Oh yes. That was the main place for the Ogden area. That was a place that was usually always crowded, but anyway, those were some pretty good dances, too. They would dwarf Hooper's dance a long ways, even though Hooper was good dances. But the ballroom covered the whole intermountain area, and it was always loaded. MT: What about shoe repair? Did most of the places have shoe repair of their own? 8 HB: Well, as far as shoe repair is concerned, you could go into places like Kress's and Woolworth's and so on, and you could buy a pair of rubber soles and glue to put them on with for fifteen or twenty-five cents. You could buy the heels, and a lot of us at that time had a shoe last, and we learned to put the heels on them. We'd glue these soles on them, and that would take care of the minor jobs. You could buy these scout shoes for boys for $1, and I wouldn't say they're good by the standards of today. I don't think they had any arches in them, and I guess a lot of people got their feet ruined by them. But I'll tell you, the leather in them would wear like mule hide. They were tough. And there were repair shops all over, but they didn't charge today's prices. You could go in and get a pair of shoes fixed for $1 or $1.50, and I mean they were fixed. Today, you could buy a new pair of shoes for what it costs to get them repaired. MT: What did you learn in the CC Camps that has been beneficial to you and has stayed with you? HB: Well, I was one of three from this state that were in the camp that I was in. Most of the boys were from out of state. They were from Kentucky, Tennessee, West Virginia, Louisiana, and a few from Ohio and Illinois, in that area. But most of the boys in that camp were the hillbillies of Kentucky, West Virginia, and Tennessee. They were downright mean, and they could play the harmonica, banjo, and guitar like I've never heard since, and do all kinds of dancing. I'm talking about the step dances and the stomps, and the kinds where you get up on the stage and entertain. But when I say mean, they would fight with their fists and knives and brass knuckles and clubs, and they didn't mind smuggling in guns and trying 9 them, too. I've seen them get mad and battered and cut, and I've seen boys from that group go into the penitentiary. I wouldn't be surprised if they still might be there. They went in for murder and rape and everything under the sun. Most of those boys were illiterate. They couldn't read, they couldn't write, but you couldn't cheat them on money. They knew everything down to the cent no matter how much you were talking about. They couldn't write their names. They had to put an X and have someone else sign under it. They didn't know anything, and they didn't want to know anything, but they could scrap. And they didn't mind a practical joke. If it got to be past a joke, that was just that much more fun. If they could get your goat, why they'd take that and your hide too. At night they might come in at midnight and give your bed a flip, and you'd land on your face on the floor and the bed on top of you. To them, that was a joke. MT: Are you still profiting from some of the things that you learned there? HB: Well, yes. I had experiences there that I will never forget. I could maybe go into a few of them. I learned a lot about drafting and photography, and the way the government operates as far as the land management is concerned. I learned how to read plats and know what they're talking about when they mention townships and meridians and all of these things, although I have not had much to do with them for years. It was a good basis and a good thing to learn. Even though I was with these boys from out of state, I didn't let that bother me. I had a lot of evenings to spend, and so I decided that since I had time to waste, I might as well profit by it if I could. 10 So about this time, Alida went on a mission. I wanted to go, so I tried to figure out a way to get enough money to go. I couldn't make enough to save. My mother wasn't working at a job that would bring enough money that she could keep me there, and there wasn't a relative with money enough, and the ward claimed that they were too poor. There was just no way that I could go on a mission. So I started work with the boys in the camp down there, and I converted three of the boys from the camp into the [LDS] Church. I know where two of them are today; one of them is a bishop back in Illinois, and the other is on the high council up in Canada. The other one I saw about five years after I brought him into the church, and I've never seen him since. But I was able to work with these boys long enough and often enough that I brought them in, and there were a good many others that I think I softened their hides. I was able to baptize some of them myself. MT: Is there anything else that you can think of that might be of interest? HB: Well, they had to have these camps to keep the young people off the streets, to keep them out of trouble. There was too many young people on the road; they were hitchhiking and were traveling all over, and there was no work at home, whether it was in California or Utah, in Minnesota or New York, or anywhere. There just wasn't any work anywhere. President Roosevelt decided that something had to be done, that crime was on the increase, and that all these people out of work and no money to pay them. They decided they didn't want just the WPA projects out of it. They wanted to teach the boys, to give them some military training - not with a gun, they didn't 11 do that. But they had to get up at 5:30 or 6:00 in the morning and shave and take a shower and clean up, and they had to get out to roll call and go to breakfast. They had to make their beds and be out in the truck to go to work at 7:30 or 8:00. They came back at noon if they were close enough, and then they came back at 4:30. They would have about an hour to do what they wanted to do or needed to do before supper. Then after supper, if they could get leave to go off the post, they could go wherever they wanted to go. Or if they stayed on the post, there were libraries and all kinds of training sessions. Of course there were a lot of them that had to take turns on KP, and they learned to peel potatoes by the sack. In the group that I was in, there were about 30-40 men, and they had to be fed three times a day. A lot of them learned to be cooks and learned to do other things. A lot of them found their life's work from their camps. Some of them learned to be auto mechanics, truck drivers, and tractor drivers, and they learned to survey and just all kinds of things. And a good many of those boys were not only off the streets for a period of time from one to three years, but they did have a chance to earn from $30 a month to $45 a month, gaining the training, and they had a chance to be moved around the country, sometimes two and three times while they were in these camps. They were put out of the area in which they lived so that they did see a new part of the country. It was a good experience for many of them. It at least got them off the streets and out of their folks' hair, and gave them something to do for a period of time. If they wanted to re-enlist, why, they could stay in for sometimes quite a 12 number of years. I guess quite a number of them were in three, four, five, and six years. Some of them couldn't get out fast enough, and some of them didn't want to leave. The training in there was almost as strict as it was in the military except that we never had to carry a gun. We had to take calisthenics, and they had to jump to the whistle and command of the lieutenants, captains, and majors, and all this kind of thing. On Sunday, they held a Protestant and Mormon service. Now in my camp, they were mostly all Catholics; there were very few Protestants, and no Mormons, only just four or five of us. Of course on weekends, I would take quite a number of the boys, and we would go into Ogden. I would see that they went to church with me. If they were coming to my place to stay for the weekend, they went to church with me. MT: As you look back now, what changes do you think might have been in your life, education-wise, and this kind of thing, if the Depression had not come along? HB: Well, this I don't know. I was really disappointed that I didn't get a chance to go on a mission. Now as I look back on it, that's where my mission was. I probably did much more good in that camp as a missionary than I ever would have done - well, I can't say that. But education-wise, why I don't know if I would have had a chance to go to college or not, or even if I would have wanted to. Jobs were hard to find, and I worked quite a number of good jobs after I got out of the camp. I worked for the Weber Central Dairy. I worked for the Amalgamated Sugar Company, and I worked for little short jobs here and there. But you couldn't get a steady job and stay with it. The institutions were not in a position at that time to hire very many people. All they wanted was to get them 13 over a short rush period. I worked for the California Pack, and just seasonal and short periods, and then the job was done. Then you'd get out and hustle another job. You'd maybe get a few days or weeks or a month, but nothing that you could call a steady job that you could stay with. If you could get a steady job, you were one of the lucky people for quite a few years. The thing that I wanted to do at that time was to be an auto mechanic, but then I'm about as far from that as I can get. I hardly know which end of the car has the motor on it any more.