Oral History Program George T. Frost Interviewed by Mack S. Taft circa 1960s Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah George T. Frost Interviewed by Mack S. Taft circa 1960s Copyright © 2016 by Weber State University, Stewart Library iii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description The Great Depression in Weber County, Utah, is an Oral History Project by Mack S. Taft for completion of his Master’s Thesis at Utah State University during the summer of 1969. The forty-five interviews address the Great Depression through the eyes of individuals in several different occupations including: Bankers, Laborers, Railroad Workers, Attorneys, Farmers, Educators, Businessmen, Community and Church Leaders, Housewives, Children and Physicians. All of these individuals lived in Weber County from 1929 to 1941. The interviews were based on what they remembered about the depression, how they felt about those events and how it affected their life then and now. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Frost, George T., an oral history by Mack S. Taft, circa 1960s, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. 1 Abstract: This is an oral history interview with George T. Frost. Commissioner Frost discusses the automobile business and working as a mail carrier during the Depression. He discusses various federal programs, such as the CCC and the WPA, and the need to economize. The interviewer is Mack Taft. MT: Commissioner Frost, where did you live between the years 1929-39? GF: I moved down here to go to the Utah State College in the fall of 1928. Then I went back to Wyoming. I was born and raised in Wyoming, and I went back home for a short season. Then I came back down, and I’ve been in Ogden ever since. MT: When did you start your business activity here in Ogden? GF: Well, I became associated with the automobile business way back in 1934 with a friend of mine, L. H. Strong, whose name I’m sure rings a bell with a lot of people. He and I were both looking for work, as were millions of other people. We decided to try the automobile business – or rather he did. I was working for him at the time in a little spot down here at about 3230 Washington Boulevard, where the Lincoln-Mercury dealer is now, opened up a little shop selling Studebakers. That was my beginning in the automobile business. Even prior to that, he and I were overhauling cars in the place where the present Ogden Bowling Alley is, here on 26th and Washington. Anything, in other words, to make a dime. It was just that serious, scrounging around, trying to make a nickel. MT: Just go ahead and talk about what you remember about those years. GF: Well, let me give you a typical example of how things were at that time. I mentioned starting in the automobile business, that is, selling automobiles in 2 1934. I went back to South Bend, Indiana, I recall – this comes vividly to my mind – to pick up a couple of Studebakers. We were caravanning at that time. In other words, to save a few nickels, rather than ship them, we would go drive one behind another. This was in November 1934. I got somewhere into Iowa, and got into a snowstorm, and I fought snow all the way through Iowa and into Nebraska. I couldn’t find any chains, and I couldn’t even find any mud hooks, you know, to give me a little traction, you know. Anyhow, to make a long story short, I somewhere in Nebraska ran short of funds. In fact, I didn’t have any to start with, to speak of, so I wired Strong here in Ogden to send me some money because I was going to be out of funds pretty quick. I told him to send it to North Platt, Nebraska, and I would pick it up. When I got to North Platt, I went to Western Union, and there were no funds there. They hadn’t heard. So I left word with them that if the money did come, to forward it onto Cheyenne. So I took off, and I arrived in Cheyenne and pulled into a service station to fill up the tank, which I was in the process of doing when a Highway Patrolman pulled up beside me. Very nicely he informed me that I had to have a permit to caravan cars across Wyoming. As I recall, it was $1.50 a car at that time. Anyway, it was very interesting and coincidental that when I paid him and paid for the gas, it took every cent that I had in my pocket. So here I was completely broke. So I went down to the telegraph station, and here was the funds. But this is the point. Try to compare it with today, and it is almost a laughing matter. There was $17, if you can imagine, and that $17 had to get me into Ogden. But 3 $17 in those days was quite a lot of money. Going back even before that, I got married in 1932, which was right square in the middle of the worst of the Depression. I was working for the power company at the time. Just a week before my marriage date, I lost my job. That is, due to normal attrition, they were trying to find places for the older men. I, being one of the younger ones, had to leave. I was making $90 a month. Big deal, as compared to today, but my wife and I decided to go ahead anyway. It was that year that I got kind of mixed up in selling automobiles, as I mentioned, trying to make a dime to live. But, anyhow, this $17 got me back to Ogden, but $17 wouldn’t go very far today. I remember several months later, I was called back to the power company to take my job back. The older gentleman that took my place couldn’t do the work, so they gave me my job back. So I had a $90 a month job, and I was very, very grateful for it. A few years later, I got that up to as high as $150 a month. Actually, we were doing very well. We bought and built a home at that time. It cost us a little over $4,300 for that home, and we lived in it for about 20 years. So that home, it would have been about 10 or 12 years ago, it sold for over $16,000, almost four times more than what I bought it and built it for. But $150 was actually a pretty fair and reasonable income. We were very appreciative and very grateful for it. You could buy a loaf of bread for around five or seven cents, eight cents at most, a quart of milk for five, six, or seven cents, which is a far cry from what it is today. I well remember those days. MT: What do you remember as being some of the problems of the businessman during those years...? 4 GF: Well, we had pretty well gotten out of the worst of the Depression by the time I decided to go into business for myself. That was in the fall of 1940. Times had not at all really returned to what could really be called normal, but we were climbing out of it. People were more optimistic, had more opportunity, let’s say. We had no idea at that time that we were going to be involved in a war. But I remember when I got involved in the automobile business, at that time, a young friend of mine and I decided that we would take a chance. We took on the Hudson dealership. This is laughable, as compared with today, but we borrowed a little bit of money to get started. We borrowed $250 to get started, if you can imagine such a thing, to get started in business. But we did it, and we leased a place down here on the corner of 27th and Washington, and started selling Hudson automobiles. I stayed with my partner for about a year. Prior to that, I had filled out an application with the postal service for a job. At that time, a notice came through, and after about five or six years, I had forgotten about it completely. They notified me that I was eligible for an appointment at the post office. Well, this looked awfully good, as you can well imagine, to have a steady job with steady pay, and a permanent job, for life. At that time, nothing could sound more sweet to your ears, to a man who had lived through the Depression and had scrounged and saved and schemed and done everything, almost, that he could think of to live on, to have a good, permanent job offered you. So I sold out my share of the business, and it is almost laughable when we look back on it. Our total net worth was just slightly over $3,000. But yet we 5 lived, and we did it, and we provided for ourselves with the sale of the cars. Today it would be absolutely impossible for anyone to even dream of such a thing. That money wouldn’t even be worth a week’s effort. Anyhow, I stayed with the post office for a couple of years, and this is not meant to be any reflection whatever on the postal service or the mail carrier, but I got so tired and weary physically that it rather disgusted me to think that all I had the brains enough to do was walk around with a pack on my back that even a jackass could do. I thought, “This certainly isn’t the life for me, to walk around with a pack on my back.” But anyhow, during the interim, my business partner had closed down the business and gone into the war. So I made application and got that franchise back, and though we couldn’t operate during the war, I had this franchise in my pocket, favorably speaking. As I walked around delivering mail, I made up my mind that as soon as possible I was going to get back in the automobile business because I could see that as soon as the war was over, there was going to be a boom because cars were awfully hard to get, were not even being built to speak of, outside of what the government needed and wanted. So when the time came, I stuck my neck out again to get started in the automobile business again. But this time, instead of $250, it cost me $5,000 just to get started and rent a place with an option to purchase that place. Even then, that was very small scale and, by today’s standards, extremely small scale. I had, you might say, moderate success. But during those immediate post-war years, we could hardly get enough cars to meet the demands. 6 MT: What do you think that you learned and that the public learned as a result of the Depression? GF: I’m glad you asked that because I’ve alluded to this many times in my life. I’ve said to my own family, “I wouldn’t wish you to go through a Depression like that, necessarily, but I can assure you that that was one of the finest experiences that those of us who went through it will have ever had because if anything in this world has taught me, and has taught those people, I think by and large every one of us who went through that Depression, if we learned anything, it was the value of a dollar. Better than that, to have a job and to appreciate the fact that you had a job and had a little respect for your employer.” So I would say that the greatest lesson that we learned out it was respect for one another, appreciation for the country in which we lived, appreciation for an opportunity, appreciation for just being able to make an honest dollar, and that we had to work. I can assure you that there was no place then for the so-called drone because, I’ll tell you, only that man who was willing to work and put forth an honest effort was working in those days. I think that those who had those jobs appreciate that fact. I would somehow wish, as I have sometimes said, that every young person of my children’s age, who are grown up now and are raising children of their own, I wish they could have had this experience without having to go through it, if you know what I mean, so that they would appreciate the value. In other words, a sense of value, I would say, would be one of the greatest lessons that we ever learned out of that. MT: What do you remember about the New Deal and the recovery measures, say the 7 WPA and the CCC and other programs set forth by the New Deal? GF: I remember quite well the WPA. It did a lot of good. For example, the North Ogden Fork road was built during the WPA days. It’s rather interesting that over the years we have been prone to criticize the judgment of those that built it, thinking that they built it in the wrong place. I just mentioned this simply because we, as a commission, have decided that we are going to keep that road open the year around. We have been pressured by many of the old-timers to change its location. After going over it with many of our engineers, we find that the present location is the best. So I commend them and, you might say, apologize for some of the things I myself might have said or thought. But that was built during the WPA days, and they did a world of good. Of course, this was merely a stop-gap measure, which we all recognize. The CCC actually, in my opinion from what I can see on the surface of it, I wish our present Job Corps were organized somewhat more along the lines of the CCC. We see evidence today, all over this land, especially in the forest of work done by the CCC – and I think that is one of the finest, if you need stop-gap measures – that that’s one of the finest programs that this government has ever engaged in, is the CCC. That was more oriented in actual physical work, in doing things that needed to be done, on all, many areas, particularly I’m thinking of public lands. A lot of those boys who came out of there had learned how to work and certainly they appreciated what they were getting because I can tell you it was something that they hadn’t had before. I’m sure those boys – this is no criticism either, but I think that it comes a little easier today than it did then – and 8 again, I think that it comes back to this matter of appreciation. I think that it is something that all of us to do more is develop a sense of appreciation. You mentioned, also, the NRA. Well, you see, we were controlled by the NRA, and it was a good thing. If we hadn’t had that, I hate to think what would have taken place in our economy. It would have been utter chaos. A lot of people got hurt. It was a good thing. I think that those acts that were enacted by the Congress during those Roosevelt days, a lot of criticism is heaped upon the president and Congress for that. For as I look back, I can see that every one of them are necessary. They did a lot of good. They kept things under control. I feel, and a lot of people today feel, that it had gotten out of control. I want to go on record today for commending the President for the action he has taken recently in this wage and price controls. My only criticism, if I were to give one, would be that he should have done it couple of years ago, or more, or the president before him should have done it. But by and large, few of these programs; I think they were wise and good decisions, and I think they were necessary. Here again, I think that they taught us to get along and appreciate our opportunities in this country. I would just like to re-emphasize that if they haven’t gone through this Depression that we were talking about, that they appreciate what their elders may have told them and can tell them about that time, and really appreciate the wonderful opportunities that we have in this great country, and show that appreciation by the way they act, by the things they say, and the things they do. You wouldn’t see the problems then that you have today. On that side of the 9 coin, that was a good thing because there was a sense of gratitude for just an honest dollar and a meal on your table, which is not prevalent today. It is unfortunate that it exists, but that’s the way it is. I wouldn’t want to go back to those days in spite of all our problems today, but I’m glad that I had that experience. MT: Did you use any special ingenuity, either you or your wife, to secure food or anything along this line? GF: Yes, indeed. I’m glad you mention that. Of course all of us, many of us, had a little garden in our back yard. We tore up our lawns. We planted vegetables, and in order to conserve our water, we dug little wells in the basement of our home, actually, and put little electric pumps on them to water our lawns. Innumerable ways, did we devise ways and means to provide for ourselves because we didn’t have the money. The money wasn’t available, so we just, we had to improvise, and that was good. It more or less rekindled that old, pioneer spirit and initiative that our fore-bearers had to use in coming into this country. That was very common. You saw innumerable gardens around this country, and that was just one area. Of course you can well imagine that we had to make a lot of our clothes, those you could, you know. Bread lines were extremely common everywhere. People were lining up everywhere just to get a loaf of bread and a bottle of milk. There was not much of it to be had, but I was able to, the one single thing that everyone was able to do, was to raise as much as they possibly could for their own food. Those of us who lived in the city found it a little more difficult. 10 MT: Did you have any experience of going to the rural area to pick up vegetables, or things along this line? GF: Well, actually, no, I didn’t. I know a lot of people that did a great deal of it, you know. When the fall harvests were in, and the fruit was picked, many people would wait and kind of pick up the leavings, and it was very much appreciated. But like I said, those of us who were in the city, a lot of us, we raised what we could in our back yards, and it supplemented what we had on our table. But I personally did not get out in the rural areas and scrounge for these things, but a lot of people did, and they had to.