Oral History Program Camille Cain Interviewed by Sarah Storey 16 July 2019 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Camille Cain Interviewed by Sarah Storey 16 July 2019 Copyright © 2018 by Weber State University, Stewart Library iii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description The Women 2020 Project was initiated to examine the impact women have had on northern Utah. Weber State University explored and documented women past and present who have influenced the history of the community, the development of education, and are bringing the area forward for the next generation. The project looked at how the 19th Amendment gave women a voice and representation, and was the catalyst for the way women became involved in the progress of the local area. The project examines the 50 years (1870-1920) before the amendment, the decades to follow and how women are making history today. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Cain, Camille, an oral history by Sarah Storey, 16 July 2019, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. Camille Cain Circa 2018 1 Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Camille Cain, conducted on July 16, 2019, by Sarah Storey. Camille discusses her life, her memories, and the impact of the 19th Amendment. Brooklyn Knight, the video technician, is also present during this interview. SS: This is Brooklyn and she is here to help me record. Today is July 10, 2019 and it is approximately 4 pm and we are here with Camille Cain. And Sarah Story is conducting the interview. So we’re just going to go over some questions. We have some work questions and education questions and then just some basic personal history questions, if that’s okay. CC: Okay. SS: So when and where were you born? CC: I was born in 1950 in Alabama. SS: Oh, wow. So what brought you to Utah? CC: My husband was recruited to come to McKay-Dee Hospital to fix the Cardiac Surgical Program that was in trouble there. SS: Wow. CC: And that was in 1982 and that’s when we moved. SS: So you’ve just been here ever since? CC: Yeah. 2 SS: That’s wonderful. CC: Yeah. SS: Yeah, do you enjoy Utah or are you...? CC: Yeah, very much so. SS: Okay. It’s very different than Alabama, especially with temperature and humidity. CC: Well, we had moved around a lot. We had lived in Germany and Montreal and Kansas City, we moved here from Kansas City. So we had both been on the go for many years traveling, even before we met. SS: But you’re originally from Alabama? CC: Uh-huh, so is my husband. SS: Oh nice. So you met in Alabama then? CC: We met at the University of Alabama in Birmingham, yeah. SS: So where did you go to school? You went to the University of Alabama, but before that? CC: Well, I grew up in a really small town, a farming community in Alabama outside of Birmingham, southeast of Birmingham, and the town is called Columbiana. It was a very famous area during the Civil War because the bullets for the Civil War were made in a little place right outside town. For the Confederacy, obviously. Then I went to Nursing School at Birmingham Baptist Hospital School of Nursing and did my science portions at the University of Alabama. So, I was actually 3 working when we met. I was at Children’s Hospital. I did a nurse practitioner’s specialty and specialized in pediatrics, and I was head nurse of the Emergency Room at Children’s Hospital when he came on my service and I got to teach him. And he was a doctor and I was a nurse; and nobody knew what a nurse practitioner was. I was in the first class at the University so it was fun. Yeah, we started off as professional antagonists and then became professional colleagues then we became friends and lovers and here we are all these years later. That was in 1971, ’72. SS: I like that you started out in this strong position, I like that. CC: Yeah, I was definitely in a strong position. SS: That’s wonderful. So did you continue with your nursing? I mean, ‘cause we’ve heard that you were a Weber County Commissioner but so that’s kind of a shift. So like what happened there? CC: “How did you get from A to Z,” she wants to know. Well that is kind of ... I will try to make it short, okay? The response that I usually have when people ask me what I do is that I say, “I’m a jack of all trades and master of none.” But I was a nurse the longest, and until we moved here, I was really involved with nursing. But when we moved here in 1992, Utah did not have an Independent Nurse Practice Act and so I couldn’t practice as a nurse practitioner. So I also happen to come from a family that is like three generations of real estate development. My grandfather built the first paved roads in Alabama and my dad worked for the Department of Agriculture as an appraiser and I was his second son. My brother, 4 is my oldest sibling, and he is eight years older than me, so when he left home I got to go everywhere with daddy and learn all about appraising and how you evaluate all kinds of things, not just agricultural fields and all that sort of thing but animals and houses and insulation and wiring and all that. So at the time that we settled here, I first helped Steve get his practice up and going and worked for him in his office for a couple of years, but then as he was going to take another partner, it wasn’t a good idea for me to stay in the office so I got a real estate license and started managing some real estate that we had purchased, some rental properties that we purchased in Park City. Because even before we moved here, we came out to ski in Park City and loved it so we kind of knew a little bit about Park City, a lot more than we knew about Ogden. I had never heard of Ogden. But when I started working in real estate, they were opening Deer Valley and I had an opportunity to purchase some lots there on the front end, right at the opening, and I did and started building homes. I had built this house we live in and, of course you know had that experience with my dad, so really invested myself in that and built homes in Deer Valley for a while in a subdivision called Evergreen, which is still there. But I think at this point they pay lots of money for one of those houses and then tear them down and build their own thing. You know, it’s kind of crazy. But anyway, working in Park City, I was really involved in planning of course because I had to go before planning commissions with my plans and all that kind of thing. And I didn’t really care for what I saw in Park City; and I was very concerned about that sort of dis-jointed and over-running planning ruining 5 this area, and especially the Ogden Valley. So that was kind of a bee in my bonnet. And then I had had a fair amount of experience with gymnastics growing up and my husband and I were fortunate enough when we lived in Germany to be there for the Innsbruck Winter Olympics. Then we moved to Montreal and that was the same summer, (they used to have them the same year) and we had the opportunity to do the Montreal Summer Olympics there. And of course, as a competitive gymnast growing up, I had this urge to be involved so I got involved with the Olympic Planning Committee. And then people were so divided about what was going to happen here that I felt like especially Weber County was not being well-represented, like nobody was doing anything. The Visitors’ Bureau was doing their very best to try to get people involved but it was like, “We’re not really sure,” you know; and there were no salespeople out there to actually sell it except the higher-ups, who lived in Park City or Salt Lake, and they were very busy trying to make things work in those areas. So I joined the effort to get the bid but then really worked more in Weber County. We hosted the U.S. Alpine Championships, and it was the first time ever, and put together some great people who did all the work to make it happen, and then kind of proved to a lot of people that we could do something like that. So between the opportunity to be involved in construction and planning, and then also with the Olympics, and Co-chairing the U.S. Alpine Championship, and being involved with the Chamber of Commerce and that sort of thing, my face was out here. In 1996 there was an opening on the Weber County Commission and I was asked to run as a Republican. I was shocked. I think I went downstairs and got on my 6 treadmill and cried and prayed for about an hour, running as hard as I could go. [laughs] Because I was, I mean that was so far out of anything I had ever considered, you know. I came to see the possibility and I came to realize that maybe I did have a place. So, we launched a campaign. I got a bunch of girls and guys together and we all sat down and talked about it and we launched the campaign. So that’s how it happened. It was like, you know, as I’ve said, just kind of grew along the way into all these opportunities and I’ve been very fortunate. Weber County’s been very good to us, you know. It really has. SS: That’s wonderful, what a neat road you’ve gone, that’s really amazing I think. To go from nursing to that, like you’ve helped people in such different ways. CC: It’s been great. I just feel very blessed to have been involved in so many different areas of life and meeting people from so many different places and having wonderful opportunities really. SS: I have a couple of other questions that I’m going to go back to your earlier childhood. So as a young girl were there any female role models in your life, or that you looked up to that kind of inspired you? CC: My mom. My mom got married at nineteen, she took off from college her freshman year and eloped with my daddy. Daddy had already finished college and after she had four children she went back to school and got her college degree and got her Master’s degree and became a teacher and worked really hard all those years to manage. You know my dad traveled and so she was managing the house, managing four kids, managing a degree, and going to 7 school .She had to drive forty-five minutes to get to her classes, and I just think that’s amazing. SS: Absolutely. She sounds like she was a very strong woman, a strong woman to do that. CC: Yeah, absolutely. SS: That’s wonderful. It’s nice to hear that mothers pave the way for their daughters, cause some people reference famous people, and moms are amazing. CC: Oh, I’m sure there were probably other people that I thought were amazing, but she so quickly comes to mind, you know that would be my number one. SS: That’s a great answer. So in your opinion, how would you say that the roles of mothers have changed over the years? CC: You mean like from over my life? SS: Yeah. CC: Okay. Well, I think generally—I can answer that based on what I see with my kids and their families. It seems to me that men are, for the most part, more involved in families and willing to take part of the responsibility, like it’s not necessarily called babysitting when a guy keeps his own kids you know; whereas when I was growing up, I mean when we were early married, that didn’t even happen. I mean, “You want me to do what?” [laughs] “What do I do with them?” But I guess I’m glad to see that things like family leave and those sorts of things have made, have elevated the purpose of families in the world; to me, that’s one of the 8 most important elements of life that we have. The nucleus of the family demonstrates so many growth opportunities for all of us you know. For the adults and the children, in both social and intellectual and psychological, in every way, really. I think another thing that really is important is, let’s see how was I going to say that, the opportunity for a woman’s role, if she chooses to stay home, to be validated. Because it used to be that if you didn’t work, if you were a housewife or a homemaker or however you called yourself or a mom that was like you didn’t do anything. You weren’t contributing to the marriage or—I mean truly, when I got married that’s the way it was. If you didn’t have a job bringing money in, there was no contribution. And it’s taken a long time for that to change, it really has. I mean I used to think, okay “I’m a nurse practitioner in pediatrics, whose kid should I be raising? Mine or somebody else’s?” SS: Yeah, absolutely. CC: So that’s kind of it in a nutshell. SS: Oh yeah, I agree that being a mother is a very difficult job and it gets underrated still. Because being a mom, it’s just it’s a full-time job. If anyone says otherwise they’re crazy because it’s a lot of work. CC: It is and when you work on top of that you know, you have to be so well-organized. And I’ll leave that for later ‘cause you may ask me a question about that, but anyway go ahead. 9 SS: Okay, so I have some questions about your education if you don’t mind. As a child, were you encouraged by your parents to pursue your education? Or was that something you just chose to do? CC: I wanted to go to medical school and my parents did not believe that women should do that. They thought that women should only be teachers or secretaries, that was it. And so even when I said that I’ll go to nursing school and start that way, they really didn’t like it at all. But they had already had enough trouble with me as a teenager so they let me go. [laughs] I had to pay my own way but they didn’t argue anymore about it. And of course I never made it to medical school ‘cause I married a doctor. And then when we lived in Kansas City, I was accepted at the University of Kansas, but when it came right down to it I could not figure out how to handle the children ‘cause he was on a new job and it was like, “No, it’s just not gonna work.” SS: Yeah, it’s hard. Moms always seem to take the hit. It seems like when it comes down to it, the moms are usually the ones. But you’ve done really well for yourself so it worked out. CC: Well, that’s why. I had to find other things to do, see, keep me off the streets. SS: So once you obtained your degree, what kind of career options did you have? You were a nurse practitioner for a while, did you do anything before that or did that lead to anything else?. CC: No, I went straight through nursing school, did the nurse practitioner, and then we left for Germany. And so I worked as a nurse practitioner for the Army. And 10 from there we moved to Montreal and from there to Kansas City, and I was having babies and working a little here and there, but really I, I didn’t work outside of nursing except while I was in school or doing training while I was in getting my nurse practitioner designation. That’s the only time I worked as an Rn you know, ‘cause when I became a nurse practitioner I always had that level of care available. Yeah, it was a good profession to have and a good understanding for what my husband did also. Because then we could still talk and I never was the kind of wife who complained about him having to take a call or missing something, because I knew what he did was really important. So it was helpful to him I think. SS: Yeah, absolutely. So you mentioned that when you went to school you paid your own way, which is a challenge in itself because we’ve been there, but is there any other challenges that come to mind while you were obtaining your degree? Did you ever feel discriminated against because you were a female? Or did you have any complications along the way? CC: I would say that because I’m a fairly direct and outspoken woman —and because, especially like when I was a nurse practitioner and I was doing things that put me in a position at the university where I was actually, in a way, overseeing some of the work that the medical residents were doing, which was totally strange for them, I had a lot of sexual abuse problems then, a lot of overt touching and stuff like that that should never be done. Men just thought that they had their way, period. And it was always a battle because you can’t let them cast you as an angry, mean person.Youknow, you have to be affable enough to work 11 with people and get things done. It was a hard time. I would have to say that it was a hard time. I was very fortunate in that the doctor who was the chief of surgery at the hospital thought I hung the moon and that was fantastic and he would tell the residents, after I started having trouble, he sat them down and he said, “Look guys, there are a whole bunch of you people. This one? There’s only one. And I can’t get any more of her. I can get lots of you guys, there’s a long line out the door waiting. You better mind your p’s and q’s.” That helped a lot, but I have found that back then it took having a man stand up for you. You know? You couldn’t do it on your own, no matter how hard you tried. I mean, the director of nursing tried because she witnessed some of it, you know, some of the abuse. It wasn’t just me. It happened. It was just the way life was. But anyway, that was a key thing, having a man who really believed in you who would speak for you. And that’s just the way it was. And then when I started in real estate development, ‘course as long as I was just selling that was fine. But when I started doing real estate development, I had a funny thing happen one day which kind of characterizes the way it was. I had on my muddy, they weren’t muddy at the time, but my mud boots ‘cause I had been up in Park City and had been on the site. We were digging a hole for a new house. And I came back to Ogden because I had a meeting with a realty company that will remain unnamed and the guy who was the head of that realty company. I had on my jeans and a sweatshirt and a blazer over it, but I had my boots on still, but they weren’t dirty— and when I went into his office and sat down, he said, “Boy, you know how to dress the part don’t you?” And I said, “I’m sorry I don’t understand what you 12 mean.” And he said, “Well, I mean, you know you’ve got your big boots on like you’ve been out slogging a shovel somewhere,” and I said, “Well, I don’t have to bend with a shovel, but I do have to make sure the job is done right.” And so I just went on with what I was there for, you know, and kind of going around hi insults. Before I left, he stood up with me and we started to walk out of the room, and he said, “I bet you can really curse. You can let those guys have it, can’t you?” and he just started laughing and hitting his leg, and I said, “You know, when you’re really good at what you do you don’t have to swear.” It made me so mad. It was just horrible that he was so rude. Things like that, you know, weird stuff. There was a situation when I developed this subdivision, Dominion Cove, here where we live. When I getting this subdivision planned, and this was before I was running for county commissioner. I went down to the Weber County planning office and had some challenges there too. You know, I ended up having to hire an attorney to actually get myself heard because they wouldn’t listen to the idea that you might do something with a wall surrounding it because the answer was, “We’ve never done it, and we’re not going to start for you”. That’s what they told me. So I thought, “Well, that’s helpful. That progresses the community, right?” Anyway, there’s all kinds of things like that occur, but I think it’s also imperative that you not, that a woman not give in and become like them. You know, when women start using foul language and being brusque and a witch they’ll call you, I mean, and that’s an excuse for them, for men, to lean on you in a very hard way, and to discount everything that you say. So one of the things 13 that bothered me a lot when I was a county commissioner, maybe you don’t want me to go there yet? SS: Oh no, go ahead. CC: OK, when I was saying thank you to someone, or in a one on one introduction or something, they always wanted to hug me instead of shake my hand. I want to go like, “I don’t know you!” So I got to the point where I was always like this [extending her hand far out], you know, my hand preceding my body. That was strange. Once you become friends with somebody and you know them really well that’s different, but in the beginning or with people you don’t really know well, it is just strange. I see it in congress now, I mean, I see it on TV. The women in congress get hugged all the time, whereas they would shake hands with a man. So I don’t know. I don’t know what that’s gonna take to actually change behavior. , maybe what happened with Vice President Biden will help. Maybe it’s bringing this behavior to consciousness, but yeah, I see Nancy Pelosi getting hugged by Chuck Schumer and other men and I think, “Did she give them permission to do that?” You know, sure at her age, she’s been there done that so many times it’s like, “Blllpp, I don’t care,” which is kind of how I had to be about it, but I do think it’s wrong. SS: Yeah, well just their personal space even. CC: Exactly. SS: So what was your very first job? 14 CC: My very first job, I worked as a soda jerk. I worked in what was called the drugstore, but it had a soda counter and that’s what my job was. SS: That’s such a fun job for a young girl, that’s wonderful. CC: Yeah. BK: Is that how you paid for school? CC: No, I waitressed. And then once I got past my first year, I was able to work in the hospital. SS: So we talked about how you became a nurse practitioner, but what motivated you, like what made you want to do that? CC: That is a really good question. I knew that I didn’t have the patience to be a teacher, and I wasn’t interested in being a secretary. I think I had just always been kind of a fixer and a nurturer and compassionate and it seemed like that was a way, if I couldn’t become a doctor, that I could at least exercise some of those (what I considered then to be) gifts, so I think that’s probably it. It was definitely a compromise on my part to go to nursing school. I’m really glad now that I did because I think it served me very well as a mom and partner and all that, but at the time it was a disappointment to me that I couldn’t actually do pre-med and plan to do something else. So it just turned out to be the right decision for the wrong reasons. I think that happens sometimes, you know. SS: So you talked a little bit about abuse and things that you dealt with, but is there a time that you would consider that you were exceptionally brave at work? Was 15 there something that happened and you had to stand up? Sounds like you’ve had to that quite a few times, but is there a specific example that you think really stands out that you’d like to share? CC: Hmm, well, I think no matter what your job is, those opportunities come. And it’s true, parenting, sometimes it takes a lot of nerve to do what you’ve got to do as a mom or dad or whatever. In my work, I would say as a pioneer in nursing as nurse practitioner, I had a lot of those opportunities because the doctors did not expect you to know how to do physical exams and make a diagnosis, they weren’t really well-informed yet about what we were doing. So that took sticking your neck out a lot to offer a diagnosis, you know, and that actually is how I had my first real brush with my husband that was more personal than just professional. One night when I was working, he was on call and I called him and said, “Doctor Cain, I have four children here who need appendectomies and we would appreciate if you would come in,” and he said, “No, ma’am. What you have is four patients that need to be evaluated to determine if they need appendectomies, and I will be happy to do that for you.” And I said, “Actually Doctor Cain, I have nine patients whom I have evaluated for appendectomies, and only four of them need surgery.” So that was kind of our turning point because he came in that night and all four of them had hot appendices and he was pretty impressed. And the youngest was four, which was a difficult diagnosis to make, and of course it was done differently back then, it’s easier now. But it turned out that somebody who was supposed to replace me that night didn’t 16 come, and so I was still there at 2:30 in the morning when he got out of the OR and he thought I had waited for him to say, “See, I told you!” But anyway, when he tells the story it’s not the way that I tell the story, but that was kind of a funny thing. But yeah, all along the line I would say those things have happened and as a county commissioner happened really frequently. You know, I always felt that the most important thing to do would be to listen and read as much as I could to learn about a topic, and then be willing to defend my position, you know, explain it and defend it if necessary I should say. And that happened a lot of times, but I remember only two times, I had somebody in my office who got really angry with me because I wouldn’t change my opinion and we had discussed for like maybe an hour or more, their opinion and my opinion, and why I had the opinion I had and why I was going to vote the way I was going to, why I supported something or whatever. And in those two occasions, on both of those occasions I said, “You know, I’m probably not going to change my position on this type of an issue so when the next election comes up, you should not vote for me,” and they were like, “What!? You just told me not to vote for you?” “Well, yeah ‘cause I’m not gonna see it your way. You need to find somebody to represent you in your position, and I’m not that person.” So I always thought that took some guts. It also disarmed the situation ‘cause then I had one of those two people come back to me and say, “You know, after I left, I had to think about what you said and I thought, “You know, she’s not just being stubborn, she really believes it and so there must be some merit to this even if I don’t see it,” which was very helpful. 17 SS: Yeah, that should’ve given them respect for you because you’re not going to be just pushed over. CC: But I had, as the only female in the county commission, I had plenty of times when shutting me out was attempted, but fortunately the law protects that kind of situation pretty well. And I worked extra hard to make sure that I was prepared. I do think it was harder for me than for the guys ‘cause if they weren’t prepared for a meeting they would just ask the attorney for an explanation, but if I did that I would’ve been ridiculed. So I had to always be prepared and always know exactly what was going on and understand it and be willing to stick my neck out to ask questions. I think women in politics still have a long way to go because of that sort of thing. And you know, it’s different in different areas, but people are much more willing to disown you than they are to own you if you’re a woman, for any little thing, so you really have to be on guard and I don’t think that’s changed. SS: Yeah, it’s unfortunate. We keep always trying to trudge forward, but you’d think it changes over time. CC: And I think we all do, we keep trying—I mean, I see my daughters and my daughter-in-laws and, you know, they’re doing better than we did. And that’s great. That’s what I want for them. And hopefully my grandchildren will do even better than them, so. But yeah, there’s always a challenge. SS: It’s too bad it’s that way, but it’s baby steps, right? Slowly getting there. This one kind of goes off the last question. But as a woman, how would you define the term courage? Like, what does courage mean to you? 18 CC: Specifically from a woman’s perspective? SS: Yes. CC: I think the meaning of courage, to me, would be to have the confidence to be in front of other people, the person you believe yourself to be inside; as fearless, as accomplished and knowledgeable as you know you can be when you’re studying and working by yourself. To be willing to let other people see that takes a lot of courage because you’ll be challenged on it and you have to be ready for that but I think allowing the world to see who you really are and, you know, shine your little light out there, do your thing is important. SS: I think that was a really beautiful answer, that’s the most unique one I’ve heard. CC: Oh, probably strange. [laughs] SS: No, it’s beautiful. I think we all as females have that struggle, so I think that’s great. CC: Mhm, it’s easy to be reticent. You know, it’s easier to be reticent than it is to be strong because everybody knows that women are not just strong they’re aggressive, or they’re not just being unkind, they’re being mean, or they’re not whatever. I mean, there are all the ways that our words are twisted. The same words coming out of a man’s mouth don’t mean the same thing, and it’s something we’ve been working through for years and we will continue to work through it, but we’re on a good path. And the women who’ve gone before us, who have stood for themselves and been willing to shine their light, have done us all a huge favor. So we can’t let that light go out. 19 SS: That’s wonderful. So you’ve kind of talked on this a little bit with your choice in school and kids, but while you were going through and working and going to school and all these things, how would you balance home-life, ‘cause you had children, and your work-life? I mean, that’s a challenging thing for everybody so how did you do it? CC: Well, I didn’t have any children when I was in college. So, I tried to go back and get a Master’s in accounting when I had four kids at home,. I only went two semesters I guess, that was at Weber State. I was pulling my hair out. Every time I had some big project I had to work on or exam or something there would be some kind of breakdown here at home that was horrible, and I gave up. So didn’t ever accomplish that. My problem was more working in Park City, having a husband who’s never home, and trying to figure out how to manage kids and schedules. You know, I was fortunate in that I could afford to hire help, but you can only hire people to do so much and finding somebody who’s good to help you too is hard. Finding a person who will care for your kids in the right attitude and all that, that’s not easy either. So I don’t know, that was my balancing act. I said, and this is what I started to tell you earlier, one of the very first interviews that I did when I became a county commissioner, I made the comment that I felt that women were unusually well-prepared for the commission job because it has so many various aspects. You do everything from roads and trash and animals and making law and understanding planning, you know, all kinds of things. So it’s such a huge variety, and I felt that because women wear different hats all their lives, you 20 know, for sure from the time you finish high school and then going through college, so many women are having a family or married or whatever, and you’re trying to balance. You’re doing these balancing acts and you wear so many hats in your life and you have to switch them all the time. So I made the comment and the newspaper wrote it that women were exceptionally well-prepared because we had been changing hats all our lives. Did not go over well with my colleagues, they did not like that. But it’s how I see it—I still believe that, I do. And maybe men do more of that now that they do more at home, but I know with like my sons, they do more at home when they can. Women don’t have that option, it’s got to happen. And ain’t nobody else going to do it. Just the way it is. SS: Yeah, so true. Now this is a probative question, so I am going to warn you because sometimes it doesn’t go well. The project, they’re asking what your interpretation of the term ‘women’s work’ because everybody has their own interpretation. CC: When I was growing up, my daddy had three girls and a boy. And he taught all of us that if we didn’t get up early in the morning with our husbands and make breakfast for him that we should not expect him home for dinner. That’s how I was raised. My husband makes breakfast for me every morning now. [laughing] That’s how things have changed. So you know, my initial response is that I don’t think there is a thing as women’s work. I personally, because of my age and the way I was raised, I do pretty much all the cooking and planning and cleaning, floor cleaning, especially the bathrooms, you know. that kind of stuff. Those are the things I see as my job—the laundry, my husband doesn’t know how to do the 21 laundry, but he’s willing to learn, you know. When he retired, he had a lot of things to learn and he’s done a great job, and you know, he does part of everything now. But I don’t automatically think of anything, watching the way my daughters and daughters-in-law live their lives and relationships. I don’t know that I think there is such a thing as women’s work except the ultimate, for the most part, the ultimate caring and handling of children. That seems to be something that doesn’t usually fall first to a man. But in terms of just dirty work, I don’t buy that anymore. I have evolved, as has the world, thankfully. SS: So true. Okay, so we have a long question, but this one really focuses on the Suffrage and was the inspiration behind this project. So how do you think women receiving the right to vote has shaped or influenced history, your community, and yourself? CC: Well, I think it definitely has. It probably was the first major step to leveling the playing field, which still was rather skewed, but really helped women to be able to say, “I have a voice,” and having a voice really as a human being, male or female, matters to everyone. So it added value, I think, to women. As far as voting itself goes, I was assured when I ran for office, that because I wasn’t from here, and I was female, and I wasn’t Mormon, I would never be elected. But you know those women went in there all by themselves, and they pushed the button that they wanted to push. I mean, —that clarified so many things for me because women, during my campaign I would see them not asking me questions. For the most part, the men would do all the questioning and raise all the issues, 22 concerns, that sort of thing. But if you really wanted to get something done, you call the women. SS: Yeah, that’s true. CC: The projects I accomplished when I was a county commissioner, every time it was committees of women. And there were men who helped us who would do some of the community speaking and that sort of thing if it wasn’t appropriate, but that was the process of the time. Women had just been allowed in the Rotary Club, women still couldn’t go in the Alta Club in Salt Lake unless they were accompanied by a man, things like that. And so I saw a real value to it at that point. I would say, historically, it’s definitely allowed women to make their voice heard. I don’t like the shrill voice of the women who become badgers about it, but if you have an issue and it’s the only way you can be heard, it’s good that you have the weight of a vote and other voters with you. So I think it has been extremely valuable and an inordinate quality of life addition I guess is what I would say. SS: Is there anything else that we didn’t touch on ‘cause we know this doesn’t cover everything you’ve ever done, so is there anything you’d like to add to this oral history? Or maybe advice for anyone or younger women coming up in the world? CC: I’ll tell you the same thing I’ve always told my girls, “Hang tough.” Be yourself, know who you are. I mean, I just think that there is nothing more important than really knowing who you are. Until you know who you are, you don’t really have anything to offer, not to your husband, or your kids, or your community, or 23 anywhere. So we grow up, we’re nurtured and we have the opportunity to develop that but by the time you stand on your own two feet and you’re ready to offer yourself to a man, a family, community, be true to who that person is. And I think that’s having the integrity of the knowledge of who you are, to step out and say what you believe without feeling that someone has to agree with you. It doesn’t matter if they agree if you’re sure of who you are, that’s okay. It’s not about everybody being on the same team. I think of life, and people particularly, as a tapestry and each one of us has a little bit of a different color and it takes weaving it all together to make it beautiful. And, you know, there are few gold threads or a silver threads or whatever, but if you didn’t have all the colors, you wouldn’t have the beautiful scene. So that’s kind of how I think the value of every person is counted. SS: Thank you, that’s wonderful. What a beautiful way to describe that. I think that’s wonderful, you’re very inspirational. We really appreciate it. CC: Oh, thanks. [laughs] SS: You’re definitely a good example for women and young and especially coming up, so that’s wonderful. CC: Thank you. SS: So we appreciate you being part of this and taking time to be with us. You’re just great. BK: Can I actually ask one question? 24 CC: Mhm. BK: So I was wondering, because it seems like your whole entire life you’ve always been doing something that wasn’t really the norm for your age group or anyone around you. So I was wondering, were you ever ridiculed by women or men around you for being amazing? For doing all these things? CC: Well, I don’t know if I would call myself amazing, okay? [laughs] That’s your word. Yeah, but there used to be a real hatefulness among women, and I don’t know if that still exists, for women who step out really. That’s why I think it’s so important that you know yourself, because if you can own that then it’s the old sticks and stones thing. But you used to really see, if you were achieving something—like when I was a nurse practitioner, it was so rare there were only twelve of us in three states and we were chosen for that opportunity, so from the very beginning we stood out. And I’ve always felt that jealousy was a woman’s worst enemy, and maybe it just has to do with the way we’re made up, but to be angry and jealous about another woman’s success is so petty. And it used to be so much the case. I don’t know how you find it now, I mean, I’m sure it hasn’t gone away totally. People are people. And the smaller the personality is the more grumpy they can be, so you have to realize that. And also, if they’re spending enough time to worry about you, they really aren’t very self-confident and that’s sad. So I guess I kind of, I don’t mean to sound ‘holier than thou,’I certainly don’t mean that. But I mean, I kind of take the ‘pray for you enemies road’, because you do have enemies along the line, and you have people who really don’t like it when 25 other people succeed. And that happens with men too, but men blow it off. When I meet young women who are going into a new job or something, one of the things I always say is, “When you’re late for a meeting, do not apologize. Do not say you’re sorry, men don’t do that. Because if a man comes in late, all the other people in the room assume he was doing something important. If you come in late, they assume you were out primping or that you took a nap and forgot the meeting or whatever.” But I think you have to, if you’re going to expect other people to respect the role that you play, you have to respect the role you play, and you have to watch and learn how to do it. And that not apologizing, I mean, I’m really honestly a pretty soft person, and believe it or not, I’m an introvert. I really am. I can talk to two people or I can talk to seven thousand people, or five hundred people, but I don’t want to talk to twenty or twelve. You know, it’s funny. I had to do it a lot when I was a county commissioner, but I had to really psyche myself up and I had to really be sure that I believed in what I was doing and that’s how I could go forward. But I just think that you have to really believe in yourself and not allow other people to tear you down. That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t listen to what they say because they might have a legitimate concern. I mean, I know a gal whose husband recently told her that she had become extremely dogmatic in her old age and he didn’t mean that in a kind way. And I was thinking about it and, “You know, she really has,” because no matter what anybody else says, suddenly she’s kind of controlled the conversation. And I don’t know what’s going on in her, but something is bugging her, so you can kind 26 of bring some understanding to other people and whatever their position is. Try your best to bridge the gap, but be who you are and be proud of it. And realize that you’re not perfect, nobody’s perfect. Nobody is perfect. Oh no. I’m sure you’ve interviewed amazing women, but the hardest part of it all is believing in yourself and being willing to stick your neck out there, and once you do, things are not always going to be perfect. But if you’re sure you know what you’re doing, go for it. Hang tough. SS: Thank you, you’re just a joy. It was so fun to be with you and listen to your story. CC: Well, it’s been fun.