Oral History Program John Bushman Interviewed by Mark Woodfield 19 May 1972 i Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah John Bushman Interviewed by Mark Woodfield 19 May 1972 Copyright © 2012 by Weber State University, Stewart Library ii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in University Archives. The Stewart Library also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description The Weber State College/University Student Projects have been created by students working with several different professors on the Weber State campus. The topics are varied and based on the student's interest or task for a specific assignment. These oral history assignments were created to help Weber State students learn the value and importance of recording public history and to benefit the expansion of the Weber State oral history collections. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Bushman, John, an oral history by Mark Woodfield, 19 May 1972, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with John Bushman. The interview was conducted on May 19, 1972, by Mark Woodfield, at Sand Ridge Junior High School. Bushman discusses Indian scouts and guides, whom he calls “immigrant Indians,” the subject of his master’s thesis. JB: I do not profess to be an expert on Indians in Utah. I did do my master's thesis on the Algonquian Indians. I spent considerable time on the reservations in Klamath Falls among the Klamath Falls Indians and among the Navajos. I have one uncle that has a trading post just out of Gallup, New Mexico. I have spent considerable time down there. My thesis was on the Algonquin immigrant Indians. I attended the University of Oregon. It is basically in this area that I am somewhat of an authority on what happened to the Algonquin immigrant Indians. These would be Indians like the Potawatomy, Sofenfox, Delaware, Kickapoo and the Shoshone. What happened to these Indians after they were moved across the Mississippi River under the Indian removal policy of the United States in the early 19th century, how they became trappers, guides, hunters, and how their lives tentatively changed. We have a misconception about the American Indian. In the first place, we think there were a great number of Indians living here in the United States at the time the Pilgrims landed, and that's not true. They were very small in number, approximately half a million by the time of the Puritans' landing in 1620. Today there are between a half million and a million Indians, so while they did go down somewhat considerably in population during the time of the Civil War, the total number of Indians hasn't changed much not to what it was during the period of time that the settlers first landed, and there were not many Indians in the Great Plains area. They 1 didn't move into that area until they obtained divorce from the Spanish and were able to move in. Editor's note: This last statement seems to refer to the Pueblo tribes. The population estimates are not accurate when applied to the hundreds of cultures in North America, some of which were decimated by diseases brought by early explorers, long before settlers such as the Puritans. The Delaware (or Lenape) and Kickapoo tribes are in the Algonquian language family; however the Shoshone dwelled in the southwest area and are more closely related to the Utes. Most of the Indians I am concerned about were not nomadic; they're nomadic-ness only dealt with their moving up into the maple syrup fields, maple syrup being a harvest of these Indians during certain seasons of the year. They raised agricultural products, and they were sedentary until they were moved west of the Mississippi River. MW: Now, in your study of these tribes did you ever run across any tribes who scouted or explored for trappers going west? JB: Yes, considerably. In fact it is very interesting, as you start to look into this particular question, because the immigrant Indians became professional guides, hunters, interpreters, adventurers roving around through most of the parts of the West, and I suspect on any of the famous expeditions which came to the West, whether it was the expedition of Marcy or of Fremont, that they had a number of immigrant Indians, usually the Delaware or the Shoshone. By the 1830s, '40s, and 50s, during this period of time, the Delaware's wanderings carried them all the way to the Pacific Ocean. They had a knowledge of almost every pass through the Rocky Mountains. They had been to the Pacific Northwest. A number of them had become employed by the Hudson Bay Company as trappers, hunters, and scouts. The Delaware were probably not clannish in 2 their disposition. They mixed in with and lived with many of the Indians. You could find a Delaware living amongst many of the tribes throughout the West. As a result of these experiences, I guess it's not surprising that for this reason they would make excellent guides, hunters, and interpreters. They were used by both the military and by private people, parties of whites that were desirous of moving across the prairie or going to the Rocky Mountains, no matter for what purpose, found that it was to their advantage if they could get hold of a couple of Delaware or the Shoshone adventurers, and so they became known. One writer refers to them as the Ishmaels, wanders of the plains. There were many famous guides, one of these happened to have the same name as I have, John Bushman. Black Beaver was another, and also John Conners, and a number of others. In fact, many of the people that came across, such as Marcy and Fremont, said they were indispensable. While going through unexplored country, they never needed compasses. They knew their way and they very seldom ever got lost. Very few of the white men developed the facilities that the Indian guides had for finding their way through dangerous and unknown areas. MW: Now, would this be because the Delaware tribe roamed through the western United States so much? Or would it be from stories or legends...? JB: Contact with the prairie tribes was, perhaps, one of the greatest changes in the lives of these new immigrant Indians. Before their removal to the West, they had been familiar with almost any of the Indian tribes in the prairie. They had never heard of the bames of the Osage, Pawnee, Kiowa, Comanche, Sioux, Cheyenne, or other tribes. It was a very short period of time after their arrival that they began to become acquainted with these Indians. They mixed in with other tribes much more than the other Indians did, and 3 immediately after they were found in the Great Plains, you could see small parties that were sent out to hunt and trade. There were a lot of disputes that came between the two, but by the adventurous nature of the Delawares and the fact that they tended to become much more nomadic after they arrived here in the West, they became buffers between the Great Plains Indians and the settlers. If you wanted to get a release of a prisoner that had been taken by the Comanche, or one of the other tribes, the best thing to do was to get hold of a Delaware, Shoshone, Kickapoo or one of the immigrant Indians, and get them to go in and speak with the Great Plains Indians of the Comanche and make a deal or trade with them. They would bargain with them and they were excellent bargainers and traders. The fact that one of the famous trappers named Marcy made this statement, and I quote, "They had been with me on several different occasions (he is speaking of the Delaware Indians) and I have invariably found that they were reliable in every respect and well qualified to fill their position." They were endowed with those keen and wonderful powers in woods-craft which can only be acquired by instinct, practice and necessity, which were possessed by no other guides who escorted the caravans across the great desert to the Sahara Mountains . People, for example, like Jim Bridger, as early as 1837, who had a leader named Manhead, who was killed later by the Blackfeet. There were Delaware Indians with Bridger in his expedition. Osborn Russell's party had a number of them. Alfred Jacob Miller, who was the great painter of Indians in the West, in his travels, said that there were always Delaware amongst the trapping parties that came west. MW: Now here are the mountain men who came into the West and in Utah. Did they ever use the Indians? 4 They knew the mountains quite well, so did they ever have to use the Delaware Indians for scouts? JB: That is a very interesting question; yes they did. In fact the Delaware were the only Indians that many of the mountain men ever thought of as companions in their trade. They were always in small bands, and any group of white men could always get a band of the Delaware to join with them. For example, in 1837, when the expedition of the Rocky Mountains was organized by the American Fur Company, this was the fur company under the direction of Chetoe Pratt and Company. The party consisted of a large company of men and wagons that were loaded with articles to be exchanged in trading with the Indians. They had with them a number of Delaware to-be guides, and this is the time when I am talking about Alfred Jacob Miller, who went along with the Indians. He went along with the sole purpose of acting as an artist, but his paintings and in his descriptions, he talks about the Delawares that were with Kit Carson. Another example, Kit Carson said that he spent much of his time in the borders of Colorado, Kansas, and into Utah. On many of his expeditions, he had Delawares with him. They were also very good hunters. They were not afraid, and they usually had superior weapons because they had received them from the government. Their arms were much better, so in conflicts with the other Prairie Indians or other Indians, they usually had superiority. The Delaware Indians were excellent fighters and did very well. MW: You mentioned that the Delaware Indians were also with Fremont when he came to Utah. Perhaps you could go into that a little deeper. Could you explain something about the Indians that were with him? 5 JB: Delaware guards went on a number of the expeditions with John C. Fremont. The expedition in which he went through Utah came across the Mormon Trail, actually a little bit south of there; they cut across where Fort Bridger is. They came down one time in 1843 with his first expedition. He came down through the southern part of Utah just a short distance south of Salt Lake, then down through Las Vegas, and went down to almost Los Angeles. This was just about the time of the Mexican War, which was about to break out, then they went up through Monterey. On a second expedition he took James Conner, one of the Delaware I talked about, and another one by the name of James Scholl or Schnic, as he was called. He also took Secunday, Secondi, James Shaw and Delaware Charley. One of the most famous Indians was one named Crane. You can find a lot of statements by Marcy and others who paid compliments to Crane as one of the best guides. Bud Skerket and Solomon Everett were called in that expedition, and, as I recall, there were 15 Delawares with Fremont in that expedition. They crossed the Sahara Mountains and reached Sutters Fort. They tried to reach there before the snow. As they got up into the southern part of Oregon, right around Klamath Lake, they had an encounter one night with the Klamath Falls Indians. A number of the Delaware were killed in this expedition. This was the time that Fremont was called and came back and got involved in the Mexican War. Fremont had a great deal of confidence in the Delaware. We know on another expedition down around Panguich, they had a number of Delaware guides. When Captain Bonneville came through the South Pass, he had a number of Delaware guides with him. 6 MW: Now when Walker left Bonneville's party to come into Utah and scatter around the Great Basin over to the Humbolt River, do you know if he took any Delaware Indians with him? JB: I would only be speculating, but when Bonneville crossed the divide in 1832 and headed for the Green River to meet Fontanell's American Fur Company caravan, he had with him a number of Delaware Indians. Fontanell camped with him, and when he left he took with him some of Bonneville's best men, including a small band of Delaware Indians. This shows you the confidence that Bonneville had in the Delaware guides. Bonneville's party when he set out consisted of about 110 men, and there were about 20 Delaware that were with them. MW: What do you base this information on? Where was your reference for this? JB: It came from the Chronicles of Oklahoma in some of the adventures of Captain Bonneville. It was in a book written by Annie Ford and published in the Chronicles of Oklahoma in the 1828 issue. I would suspect you would also find references in DeVoto's book, Across the Wide Missouri, where he refers to Bonneville's expeditions and the fact that Bonneville did have with him Indian guides. We know that in Dale Morgan's book, The Overland Diary of James A. Pritchard, he has one part of that book in which he describes and reports that a Doctor Boyle saw a Delaware whose name was Jim Hill, and he was very famous, and a lot of information has been written about Jim Hill, who was amongst the Mormons on the Bear River. He had been there with the Mormons and Jim Hill traversed almost over every aspect of the West. He was a very famous trapper and guide. He accompanied almost everyone who went through this region, whether it was Utah, Colorado, down through New Mexico, or further to the north. We 7 don't hear very much about the part that the immigrant Indians played in the expansion and trail blazing of the western American history. I think it is a shame that the Indian has not received his fair place. Everybody has heard of Fremont, Bonneville, Colonel Marcy, and Kit Carson, but much of the credit these people had really was partly contributed to the fact that they did have these guides who were experienced and who were familiar with the area, and it helped to guide them. Of course, being Indian, they didn't go down in history. You have to search the records to find it and not the history books. MW: Did the American Fur Company use any Delaware Indians? JB: There were a number of Delawares that came out, not only with the Hudson Bay, but also with the American Fur Company. They came out with almost all of the expeditions, and they were used for a number of reasons, not just for guides but also as the linguist interpreters with the Indians so that they could take care of any problems or return lost horses, or track them down. As I pointed out, when Shantenell Pratt and Company came in 1837, there were approximately 25 to 30 Delawares with them. This comes from the writings of Alfred Jacob Miller. They played a very important part in most of the fur companies. You could find Delaware Indians in almost every rendezvous, also Shoshones, but particularly Delawares. Delawares could be found everywhere in the western part of the United States. MW: Did Jim Bridger use any Indians as he explored the West, in particular Utah? JB: I don't know how far in Utah, but I do know that the Delaware were with Jim Bridger in 1837. There was one Delaware with him that was killed by Blackfeet. He describes and tells about it in Bernard DeVoto's Across the Wide Missouri. William H. Gray, who was a missionary that Bridger met, found Delawares, and Bridger reported that Gray had 8 Delawares with him. He describes that with the conflict with some of the other tribes, a number of the Delaware were killed. The Delawares, however, took care of themselves pretty well because of the superior weapons they had, as well as their method of fighting. The immigrant Indians were not used to fighting off horseback, so when they came in contact with other groups of Indians, instead of fighting on mount, they had been used to fighting in the woodland areas of the East. They would dismount, put their horses into a circle, and with their superior weapons, which would fire at a longer distance, they could hold off a large number of the Prairie Indians. There are very interesting stories where one small group of Kickapoo combined group of Kickapoo, Shoshone, and Potawatomy withstood a tremendous number of Great Plains Indians who got together and were going to wipe out the immigrant Indians because they were infringing on their ancestral grounds. They found themselves defeated because they would fire in volleys. They would stop and fire while the others reloaded. By this method, they defeated them. Some of these nations were deplored, and it says that there were thousands of teepees and horses of the Great Plains Indians. The Kiowas, Comache, and many of the tribes of the Great Plains, and afterwards they went back very discouraged with their encounter with the immigrant Indians. They were very colorful individuals of the West. Anyone who has the name of John Bushman was a pretty good chief. MW: Most specifically with Utah, what other groups, or what other explorers that you know of used the Indians for guides or trappers... JB: A lot of this information is not specifically stated, but I would be of the opinion that almost any of the fur traders that came with the Hudson Bay or whatever company they 9 represented, had with them Delaware guides. We know that some of the Indians went up with the Delaware and lived in the Oregon area, and we do know that there are stories of them being with the Hudson Bay Company. We do know, as I pointed out, that in 1849 that a group of Delaware and fur trappers were cited up in the northern part of Utah that came down through the Bear River, down along the Bear River. It is reported they came down as far as Salt Lake. Some of the Mormon descriptions talk about their coming into contact with the Indians. Almost any fur trapper that had a group of Indians with them, you could bet that they were either Delaware or Shoshone. I don't know whether they were with the group that went with -1 would like a little more investigation on that - but I have my suspicion that they were also with the Donner Party. I know that there were Indians with the Donner Party. If you read it, it tells how a couple of those Indians died and were eaten by some of the white folks. I would suspect that they were probably Delaware Indians. There is a lot of speculation because history is not recorded. The significant thing is that almost every time that it is recorded that Indian guides were used, that it was the immigrant Indians and not Indians of the Great Plains. It was the Delaware or the Shoshone. MW: You mentioned a little while ago about some Indians around the Green River, or about some trappers that were in and around the Green River. Perhaps you could go a little more in depth on that. JB: ...I mentioned the name of John Conners, who was one of the guides. In Richard Irving Dodge's book, he tells about talking with this John Conners, and he said he told him that he was only a boy of 18 or 19 and he was desirous to see the ocean. At that time his band was living on the banks of the Mississippi River. He wasn't very happy with the 10 white people towards the East so he decided to go west. Traveling on foot, generally alone but sometimes with white and red trappers, he made his way to the mouth of the Columbia River, then south along the Pacific Ocean for many miles until he came to a country occupied by Mexicans. Liking these people, he remained some time amongst them, then wandering as far north as the city of Durango. He even learned to speak the Spanish language with some ease and fluency. He finally got tired of the city life and returned through Texas to his people. He was gone for almost three years. This was the longest continuous journey he ever made, but he visited afterwards Mexico City. In journeys he crossed and recrossed the north, south, east, and west through almost all of the wilderness until he knew almost every stream and mountain of the whole continent west of the Mississippi River. He knew it so well that he was not only able to guide people and to go with them, but he could also instruct them how to travel. His brain seemed to be a vast reservoir of landmarks. He arranged these in sequence, ready for use for journey in any direction and for any distance. He could tell people, "Here are the landmarks you should see." Not only did he go with many of the groups, he also gave a great deal of instruction and advice to groups that were traveling, either through the western part or through Utah, also further south and north. I suspect that he went through all of the trails of the West. He was one of the great western explorers. How many people would you ask that would know John Conners? They know of Bridger, Fremont, and Kit Carson, but they don't know Conners... MW: Do you have any idea whether Peter Skene Ogden used any Indians? JB: I don't know. I do know that there were Indians that did work for the Hudson Bay Company, which Peter Skene Ogden worked for. And I would have to use speculation 11 again. I don't know. .. I would be surprised if he did not. MW: It was very interesting to hear how the Indians played a part in opening the West for the white man... 12