Oral History Program Glen Warner Perrins Interviewed by Pam Wilson 4 October 1972 i Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Glen Warner Perrins Interviewed by Glen Warner Perrins 4 October 1972 Copyright © 2014 by Weber State University, Stewart Library ii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in University Archives. The Stewart Library also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description The Weber State College/University Student Projects have been created by students working with several different professors on the Weber State campus. The topics are varied and based on the student's interest or task for a specific assignment. These oral history assignments were created to help Weber State students learn the value and importance of recording public history and to benefit the expansion of the Weber State oral history collections. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Perrins, Glen, an oral history by Pam Wilson, 4 October 1972, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Glen W. Perrins. The interview was conducted on October 4, 1972, by Pamela Wilson. Perrins discusses his interest in writing, some of his own writings, and who he admired in his life. PW: Mr. Perrins, to begin with, would you tell us a little bit about your birth date and your early childhood, where you were born, etc. GP: Gladly, I was born in Evanston, Wyoming, a cowboy state, on April 6, 1902. For six years I lived in Evanston, my father was a railroad man and when they moved the railroad terminal - from Evanston to Ogden - he came to Ogden. I was six years old and started in at the Madison School. I went to the grade schools in Ogden, I went to the Ogden High School when it was on 25th and Monroe. When I graduated from high school I went to the University of Utah. That is where I got interested in being a writer. They had college papers, they had the Chronical that was the newspaper, and they had the Humbug which was a humor magazine. That’s where I had more fun, I was the editor of the humor magazine and I got acquainted with college writers, college cartoonists, and that was the beginning of my newspaper writing career. From the college, there used to be a college humor magazine published in Chicago, and Dorothy Ann Blank was the editor. When she would see copies of our Humbug Magazine, she would ask if she could reproduce some of those in her magazine, and of course, we said sure, and she would pay us for using our cartoons and humor. So then at that time there was other humor magazines, Captain Billy Whiz Bang, which was like Reader's Digest is today. It was about that size, College kids always carried Captain Billy's Whiz Bang around in their coat pockets. There was another magazine called TNT and that was really a hot magazine. They always called it lots of humor. I think that is what the world needs today is more humor and in those days Life Magazine was a 1 humor magazine. And there was Judge, Judge was a humor magazine. There was another magazine called Colliers, and they had a column which was humor. So what we would do in college, we'd send humor out to these different national magazines, and we would have pads of paper about the size of playing cards, and we had our name on a stamp pad and we would write our humor for our cartoon ideas on little cards of paper about the size of playing cards and then we would put them in an envelope, with another return envelope inside, and we would mail them to these editors in New York and Captain Billy Whiz Bang was in Robinsdale, Minnesota. So that is where we would send our jokes and the editors would shuffle through them just like you would shuffle through a deck of playing cards and then they would keep the ones they would like and they would pay. Life paid $5.00 for each one. And the others would pay $3.00 and TNT would pay $1.00. So that was the way, there was a friend of mine that was a cartoonist, Weldon Taggart, we earned our way through college just having fun. So with that, after I got out of college I was still having fun just writing humor, so I got a job on the Standard Examiner, and I used to write a humor column called Sunshine and Shadow, I did that for twenty-three years. We created characters like Loy-sis, The Office Boy and Looner, The Office Vamp, and the readers of our newspaper would get acquainted with these characters and they would wonder what was happening to Loy-sis, The Office Boy or Looner, The Office Vamp. So that is how I got started, and when I got married, my wife said I had too much humor and not enough serious and said it was time I started to write something a little more serious, so I started to write articles. But I still put a punch or two at the beginning in my articles to catch the reader’s attention. I think that the youngsters that want to be writers, they should realize that words are the tools that writers use. They should know the right words to use, they should be able to use different words, and I think that people are tired of long wordy sentences. I think that seventeen words to a sentence is about maximum, I think if you 2 have brief sentences and if you use the right words, and I think that a person that can talk can be a writer. If you carry on a good conversation, you can be a good writer. Now one of my friends that is a very successful writer, he dictates, he has two stenographers. PW: Who is your friend? GP: Well, he is the one that, what is your favorite murder mystery program? PW: It would have to be Perry Mason. GP: Perry Mason, that is the one. Now Perry Mason's author was Earl Stanley Gardner and he used to be an attorney and that is where he got the idea of his stories. His detective stories really, most of them are true to life. So he would come back from his trials and he would dictate to his stenographer and when she got tired of listening to his stories another stenographer would come in. So he had two of them going. He's been to Ogden to the Writers Round-up. Well the poor fellow, he passed away about two summers ago. But he used to come and when he would talk he would have me introduce him and I said, notice when he speaks, he paces back and forth on the stare, and he came back at me and said the reason I pace back and forth is so that I am a moving target if they go to throw things at me. He put humor in and he put good ending and that got me interested in detective stories. I like to try to do everything to see what I could do. So I got acquainted with the big story on the radio years aero before television, there was a murder mystery. There was twenty-five murders that I covered on the newspaper and one that they sent me a medal, a plaque for outstanding reporting. I was real proud of that. So I'd sell these stories to detective magazines and then the network, the radio network would have me tell my story of how these different murders occurred. So that was how I tried that out. Then I used to write poems. Then I got interested in children stories. There was a lady that came from California, and I was teaching at Weber College Evening School. I did that for thirty years. Tuesdays - Thursdays at first 3 - then on Tuesdays. So to make the classes more interesting for the students, I would have speakers come. And this writer came from California and I was telling them the story. PW: Can I have the writer’s name? GP: I can't remember her name, she was from Ogden. She used to be working in the Post Office. She sold stamps and she got acquainted with me because when I sent out my mail every day she wondered what in the world I was writing so many letters for and buying so many stamps. So I told her I was trying to be a writer so she came to class and she - I was telling the story the old one about the hare and the tortoise and the race and she said the reason that isn't a very exciting story the way you tell it is you should imagine is that you are a little tortoise and then tell the story from the tortoise’s angle and so I rewrote the thing and the editors liked it so well that they asked me to write another one so then I picked on every animal that I could think of and each animal with a handicap. Now, in the song, Rudolph, The Red Nosed Reindeer, you know he has got this bright and shiny nose and you know they made fun of him and everything. Well, the other animals have their handicaps too. There is one, I wrote about a porcupine and to give it a corny title so that everybody might want to read the story. I put, "Prickly Porky Plays Policeman," that alliteration, and then I imagined that I was the porcupine and I was playing policeman and the reason that I thought I might make a good policeman is because the quills the porcupine has, he can slap his tail around and keep the animals away so he could guard the trails when the water way animals went to drink. But this poor porcupine couldn't make his quills stand up and how do you think, have you ever heard that when your hair stands on end? PW: Ah, Ah. GP: I could do that, I am bald headed, but some people their hair stands on end "literally” when they get scared. So this porcupine, one day, there was a real wolf that came to the water hole and he 4 got so scared that his quills stood on end and he scared the wolf away and from then on he was the hero of the forest. Now when Rudolph The Red Nosed Reindeer was written, that was just written by a father for his youngsters, and he didn't know that he had a hit on his hands until it was published and everybody, it was put to music and it became nationally famous. Now my stories, I have written about a hundred stories and I have about twenty of them in a book, and the Taxwell printers of Caldwell, Idaho, write them in their magazine. When you write for a magazine they buy the magazine rights, but then when you give it to a book publisher, the book publisher takes the book rights, then as the movies take it then they get the movie rights. So a person who creates something has many facets to make a lively hood. Mine got into magazines and got into books, but when I sent my children's stories to Hollywood, the Disney studio considered them but they weren’t long enough, so they said, but if I wanted to write for them, I would have to write longer stories. PW: Let me interrupt you for just one minute, I wonder if I could ask you, as you began to write, was there any writer that you admired very much? GP: Yes, I admired H. C. Whitword. He had a salesman in his stories, and this salesman, Ajax, he could sell ice to Eskimos. He was a real talker real comer, he was a good one. So I tried to imitate him, but I found that when I tried to imitate people it wasn't right from your heart, it wasn't sincere. You have to be yourself. If I have any advice for youngsters, I would say that, create your own style, just keep writing. If you want to be a writer, you have to write. If you want to play the piano, you have to practice. If you want to do something, you just keep at it. PW: How do you feel about literature today? GP: I feel that literature today is great. There is the biggest field open today for writers that there has ever been in the world. You have got to learn to communicate with each other. It is a small world 5 and you have to put your thoughts down for other people. I think that the writers are the gifted people. They're the people that have fringe benefits all around and everybody loves writers. They welcome you to parties, shows, and to all events. Your club wants you to write up the club news, everybody thinks the writer is great, and it is, it is a wonderful profession and pays big dividends. PW: When you read something, what is it, usually, that makes you want to read it or to put it down and quit reading it? GP: What makes me put it down and quit reading it is if they have too long of paragraphs and they get too windy. I hate to be long winded. The thing that makes me want to read something is to have a good beginning, something that intrigues your imagination or interest, or catches your attention and you want to read more of it. It is just like when a pretty girl goes down the street. You pay attention and you have a pretty beginning in your story or article, why, it grabs your attention, it seizes you and makes you want to read. And you keep that going with short sentences and short paragraphs and a punch line, a little humor and entertainment and you’re in. PW: A lot of today’s literature seems like it is kind of negative, have you noticed? GP: There are too many negative writings, yes there are. People, I always say, if you can't see anything good about somebody, you don't say anything. I like to be a booster, I like to - there are enough things to write about in Utah. This current issue of the Western Air Magazine has an article on Utah. Says that Utah is a state that you take it leisurely, you get off the plane and you don't buzz through, you take it leisurely through the back trails and get acquainted with Utah, and its scenery and its wonders. I think that more Utah people should write about their own state and the things they know and be boosters and discover Utah. Tell the world about it. I think that articles about our own home state are wonderful, the Great Salt Lake and scenery. PW: Ah, ah. 6 GP: There are plenty of things to write about here at home, PW: What do you think the greatest quality that a writer can have? GP: I think that the greatest quality that a writer can have is to be accurate, and to be truthful, and to be Entertaining. I think you have to have a message. I think a person, for example, when you see a movie and you come out and you say what was that about, you don't tell a story, there is no - you feel like you have wasted a whole evening. Well, when I pick up a book and you don't learn something from it. All my stories I wrote about animals, I instructed. When I wrote about Brownie the Beaver, I would tell how the animal had a flat tail and how he would paddle the mud build the dams and how industrious he was. When I would write about Lori the Lion, that had a circus, he was in the circus. I told about that, how the lion looked, I not only described him but I told what he ate, his actions and everything - you have to inform your reader as well as instruct him as well as Entertain him. You can't let his attention drop to give him something to learn, but you have to teach him something as well as entertain him, I think that is a big quality. When you say something when you read an article or story, you have to say, now that told me; you have to have a message. I'd say give them a message. PW: That is very interesting. What did you learn as you were studying in the university that helped you with your writing? GP: Well, when I was going to the University of Utah, I had Bartis Fisher - he was from Idaho. He was the one that wrote the writers guide book. He wrote Trilogy, he wrote several things. Then there was Ernest Hemingway from Idaho. We used to hear a lot about him. But I think that what I - the greatest thing that a. teacher taught me, was not to give up. Lots of times a writer gets rejections, and I know around home here, rejections still come, maybe one check and then there will be about half a dozen rejections. But you can't give up being a writer just because you get some 7 rejections. I learned, I think the greatest thing, I learned how to put my stories and articles together but I think I was taught to keep working, keep at it and not to be too discouraged, I think that young writers today, a lot give up too soon. I know for example, I wrote in the Readers’ Digest, there is The Life in these United States, and so they pay, when they started, they paid $200.00 for each joke so me being a humorist, I thought, oh boy, here's where I get two hundred bucks, every month. So I got into it and I started out interviewing different forest rangers and different ones about wild life and everything. And before I sold to Readers Digest and The Life in These United States, I wrote 277 jokes and my 278th joke I made my $200.00. So that is how you have to, you have to set your goal and keep at it. PW: That is good advice. GP: Tenacity. That is the word. PW: Yeah. I'm sure that in your writing experience, you have ran into other literary figures, what kind of feeling did you have with them, and who were some of them? GP: Well, the greatest writer that Utah has had, or one of the greatest was Frank C. Robertson. He lived in Springville and he was my idol, and he hired Indians to help him on his farm. He would go to these roundups in the fall when they would brand the cattle and he would get true cowboy stories. I would, but first he didn't know how to type so I would type his stories, I would typewrite his whole book. Then I would get paid five cents a page and I would typewrite his whole book for him, I would make like $45.00 or $50.00 and when I would type. I would also correct his language a little bit, and so I figured he had the greatest imagination of any writer that I can think of. And in his library at home he had a five tiered book shelf and the only books that were on there were the ones he had written. He would sell them first to Ranch Romances and then they would come out in book form and he had all the money he wanted, he would go buy a car and he would buy 8 another one for his brother, Ovid Robertson. So Ovid turned out to be a writer and Frank's wife went to college and learned how to type his stories and so it was kind of a family affair. He wrote about true experiences, true cowboy experiences. These bodes are in the libraries, I think he wrote about 204 or 205 stories. Many of his, I put one in a form of a play, and we sent it to Hollywood, and they have A pictures and B and C. Well his was a C picture and he only made $500.00 so we gave up trying to be in the movies and we stuck to our story writing and that paid off. PW: My sakes, well, that sounds like a great writer. GP: Well, it is a lot of fun, you can do your work at home and it's very fascinating, it is very satisfying profession and you’re a creator, and I don't know, I like to create things and see what people think of it. And all the prize contests you can enter, but I think it is good to try your hand at everything in trying to become a writer and maybe sooner or later you will decide what you enjoy most and stick to that. PW: Thank you very much for your time and this has been a great interview. GP: Well it’s been fun. Thanks for coming. PW: You bet. 9 SUMMARY PAPER ON WESTERN WRITERS The subject which I chose to explore through the Oral History Program was one in which I had considerable personal interest. The idea of interviewing writers came to me almost simultaneously as we discussed possible topics last summer during the workshop. Writing had been my emphasis as an English major, so naturally I had a great love for a study of writing in regard to this program. The project itself had to do with the personalities and attitudes of the writers themselves. Rather than an information-oriented project, mine was a person-oriented project, which nonetheless brought forth considerable information. Each writer was questioned along similar lines about their attitudes, feelings, experiences, and opinions about three areas: (1) their own personal development as a writer, (2) the development of other writers, and (3) the world at large. The questions were designed to be the kind which allows the interviewee to go into as much detail as he desires, and the questions I used were formulated and improved as I perceived their strengths and weaknesses. In attempting to analyze the project, the greatest benefit I derived from it was an understanding of people, how to talk with them, rather than to them, and how to perceive their feeling and thoughts as they are speaking. Last summer after learning and discussing the techniques of a successful interview, I experimented with friends. Friends, much the same as interviewees, require in conversation someone who can, who wants to, and who does listen. In observing discussions between people at various gatherings, it is surprising how few people listen—most of them are merely planning what they are going to say next. I admit that I have not been strong in this area in the past. Indeed, I have been one of those who drift off away from the words of the speaking person, or who plans hurriedly a quick reply before he ever knows what to 10 reply to. This project has changed that aspect of my personality, giving me a greater awareness of others, their needs and their feelings. Further analysis of the project would include the mention of my conclusion that there is an incredible difference between writers, although in many areas they seem to agree, at the same time. Each of them developed in a different manner; each has his own style and his own philosophy in regard to writing. Yet, they all agree that writing comes through intensive effort and persistence. Also, each one indicated a great need for empathy on the part of the writer, a quality which I think many people would not place such great emphasis on. Finally then, the project was one of enjoyment for me. I was able to learn about people, but also writing, and in addition, obtained a feeling for the task of writers, their frustrations as well as their hopes. A critique of any kind requires an objective analysis. A critique of oneself requires considerable objectivity, and at the same time, honesty in determining the positive and negative results. In critiquing my project I find many weaknesses, but I also find strengths. A look at the positive and negative aspects will reveal these. To begin, I think the most positive thing in the project was the interviewee’s themselves. All of them were more than willing to talk, to submit to questioning, and to donate their interviews to the college. Having designed the questions as open-ended and rather general, I was overjoyed to observe their uninhibited (or almost uninhibited) responses to them. In addition, those interviewed were all intelligent, enthusiastic people, extremely knowledgeable and competent in their field. From them I was able to obtain quite explicit information, without a great deal of rambling, although once in a while this became a problem temporarily. The best thing about the interviews themselves was the long response of the interviewee to one of my own short, general questions. 11 An examination of the negative aspects reveals a lack of knowledge on my part in regard to those I interviewed. Had I had a better knowledge of them personally, I would have been able to zero in on specific areas or issues immediately, rather than come around to them by accident as the interview progressed. However, in spite of that handicap, the interviewees many times came around to revealing things of importance anyway. Another area I had difficulty with was the effect the tape had on the interviewee in regard to his willingness to divulge personal information of a negative nature. Even though the tape recorder was out of sight, more than once the interviewee remarked that he just couldn't say such things on tape. I assume from this then, that the tapes caused them to consider a bit more carefully what they were saying and how they were saying. This of course, would have an effect on the accuracy and completeness of detail, and even of attitude in the interviews. Whenever this particular problem occurred, after one or two tries to bring them forward and out of their shells, I gave up. Perhaps this was a weakness on ray part, although I still felt that withholding information was their privilege. Therefore, I did not press them, and maybe I should have. Looking at the specific interviews, the worst was surely the first. Hoping for an hour interview, I did not plan for all the conversation and activity that went on prior to the actual taping. Mr. Perrins was very anxious to show me what he had written, and I was anxious to see it, but all the time our time was slipping away, and I ended up rushing him through the interview, making it impossible for him to explore any question or go into any depth concerning it. This could have been one of the best interviews, but my lack of planning lessened its success. The second interview I conducted was one I was very pleased with. Mrs. Larimore was easy to interview, and went into a lot of detail without unnecessary pushing. The unfortunate thing 12 about her interview was that at one point I stopped the tape recorder and thereafter, the sound was very muffled for some reason. In the transcript, the interview halts suddenly, because of the inaudible words. The interview of Dr. Allred was perhaps the best, due for the most part to his own relaxed state and his dynamic personality and ability to express himself. He expanded upon many of the questions in much greater depth than others I interviewed. Mrs. Knowles's interview was very good, but due to the fact that she adheres to an extremely busy and hectic schedule, she rushed the interview slightly, thereby not going into the depth she might have if she had been freer in regard to time. My final interview, that of Olive Burt, was one of ideal circumstances. At seventy-eight years old, Mrs. Burt had unlimited time, and with great intelligence and recall, turned out an excellent interview. In this interview I was able to steer the questioning into other areas not related specifically to writing, and she explored them with enthusiasm. Perhaps an additional reason for the success of this interview is that her age and accordingly her experience enabled her to expound on a greater number of subjects and incidences with a more refined perspective. Thus, the interviews were anything but flawless. Many unexpected problems popped up, requiring immediate action, and the action was not always ideal. Still, all in all, the project was, I think, a success. The five interviews do present a well-defined picture of writing as a profession or otherwise. To the listener of the tapes, or the reader of the interviews, the project can and will contribute considerable knowledge and understanding. 13 BIBLIOGRAPHY Brooks, Cleanth and Warren, Robert Penn. Modern Rhetoric. (New York: Harcourt, Brace and World, Inc.), 1961. Brooks, Van Wyck. The Writer in America. (New York: E.P. Dutton), 1953. Hall, Donald. The Modern Stylists. (New York: The Free Press), 1968. Perrin, Laurence. Story and Structure. (New York: Harcourt, Brace and World Inc.), 1966. 14