Oral History Program Grant Miller Interviewed by Craig Gunderson and Kathryn MacKay 23 September 2008 i Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Grant Miller Interviewed by Craig Gunderson and Kathryn MacKay 23 September 2008 Copyright © 2014 by Weber State University, Stewart Library ii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. 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These oral history assignments were created to help Weber State students learn the value and importance of recording public history and to benefit the expansion of the Weber State oral history collections. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. 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It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Miller, Grant, an oral history by Craig Gunderson and Kathryn MacKay, 23 September 2008, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Grant Miller. The interview was conducted on September 23rd, 2008, by Craig Gunderson at Union Station in Ogden, Utah. Mr. Miller discusses his career with the railroads in Utah, as well as his volunteering experience at Union Station after his retirement. CG: Alright. GM: That's the recorder? KM: Isn't that clever? CG: It is very clever. Alright everything sounds like it’s going good. Should I unplug this? KM: You're fine. CG: OK. OK. Today's September 23rd 2008. It is about 3:15 in the afternoon. My name is Craig Gunderson and I'm here at Union Station in Ogden Utah with Grant Miller. Well let's jump right into it. Why don't you tell me a little bit about your favorite house you lived in growing up? GM: My favorite house? CG: Yeah, just a description of it. What you remember of it. GM: When I was young you mean. Well when I was born my parents were living in a basement home. The original house had burnt down. Of course money was short at that time. They lived in a tent for a few months but they dug a basement for a home. Put a roof on the basement had four rooms in the basement we lived in that basement for 1 about 10 or 12 years. Then they finally had enough money that they took the roof off the basement and built a house on top of that. So that was uh... CG: Now was this the first house you lived in growing up? GM: Yes. CG: That's where you were born? GM: Yea, right in the basement of that house. CG: And what year were you born in? What year was that? GM: That would be 1931 when I was born. And we lived in that house until probably 1943 or 1942 or 1943. Then they built on top of it. CG: And when they built on top of it did you continue to live in that house for quite some time? GM: I just uh... I was about 14 then so we lived in that house... I got married when I was 19. So about 4 years. CG: Alright after... What happened after that? Where did you move out after that? Did you move out on your own directly after? GM: Well I was going to high school there. And I had missed a year of school and I had quit and I went out and I was gonna make a living without schooling. But I missed a year and decided that wasn't gonna work, so I went back to high school. And lived with my parents and I met this beautiful wonderful girl and we decided to get married and I was 19 and she was 18 and I had another 6 months of school. To go to get enough credits to graduate. So I went to school for 6 months while we were married and we 2 lived in with my parents at that time in that house. However they had gone to Arizona for the winter to be with my brother so we actually had the house to ourselves. KM: What high school did you go to? Mr. Miller what high school? GM: Westside High in Dayton, Idaho. CG: So you spent most of your time growing up in Idaho? GM: Right. Right. Uh huh. CG: Now growing up in that house how many brothers and sisters did you have, if any? GM: There were none at that house at that time. They were, I was the youngest one of the family. And they were all married and gone. CG: How many of you was there total? GM: Well when I was when I was a baby younger, I lived with I had 3 brothers there and an older sister who was married but she passed away in 1950, but I did have 3 brothers. And I did have a younger brother. When I was three he was born and he lived about 6 months is all and he died of pneumonia. So he wasn't, I didn't actually live with. CG: What about your grandparents? Did they live... your grandparents were they close by? Or did they live in Idaho? GM: Oh they were a long ways away. I only had one I remember, the rest had passed away before I was born so hahaha. CG: And that one? Where did she live? 3 GM: She lived in Bothwell, Utah just west of Tremont. And I didn't see her very often but she'd come to visit occasionally. And we'd go to visit her. But, she passed away when I was about 11. So that's the only one grandparent that I knew. CG: So you grew up in the house... mostly by yourself? GM: Right. CG: Most of your siblings moved out and were considerably older. Now where did they move to? Were they far away? Now I know one moved to Arizona. And... Did they go far from Idaho? GM: Well one went in the Air Force. He lived in Ogden until he went into the Air Force. Then he moved all over the world in the Air Force. My other brother... he was home with me for about a year off and on. He was running a farm there close to home that he leased. Then he moved to Ogden. Actually moved to Huntsville rented a farm in Huntsville then he got married and... He’s passed away now, but they, he got married and had his family, they lived in Salt Lake. My other brother went to Twin Falls. My oldest brother went to Twin Falls. Started contracting, building homes. So he was a home builder in twin Falls. Construction work. CG: And your sister? GM: My sister, she lived in Clarkston and she passed away... about 1951 or so. 51 or 52 about 2 years after I got married so. CG: So you had, growing up there was one brother that was close, close by in proximity. The farm? 4 GM: My older brother he lived in the same town in Weston, he had a farm there before he moved to Twin Falls. CG: That's great, that's great. Now, I noticed that some of them came to Ogden. How far would you say you grew up from Ogden? I'm not familiar with this area. GM: Oh it's about 85 miles. CG: Yeah. GM: Up by Preston, Idaho. Just... about 85 miles. CG: OK. Now when did you come to Ogden? Or this area? GM: Oh I came... when I finished high school I had a scholarship to play football at Utah State. Fact, I was, Lavell Edwards and I were on the same team. If you know anything about football Lavell was... But anyway he was a sophomore and I was a freshman. At that time we were living in my parent's home and I was going to school in Logan. Went to spring quarter and everything went fine. And we had a new baby that fall. And we came back for the fall quarter and... Practicing football and going to school took all my time so I couldn't work. I couldn't afford to go to school actually. My scholarship didn't pay enough so that I could afford to go to school. So that's when I quit school and moved to Ogden. Went to work at Hill Field. That was in 1951... Yeah 19 1951 worked Hill Field for 2 years then I went to work for the railroad in 1953. CG: Alright so, you began working for the railroad you were about 20 years old? GM: Twenty-two. CG: Twenty-two years old. What did you start off at, what was your position in the railroad? 5 GM: Switchman. CG: Switchman. And that's mostly out of one station, you stayed in Ogden? GM: Well I stayed here. There were three winters that I didn't have enough seniority to work here year round. So I one winter I went to Idaho Falls and worked for a couple of months. One winter I went to Twin Falls and stayed with my brother who was a contractor in Twin Falls. Worked there for three months. Another winter I got cut off I went to Salt Lake for about four months, but I drove back and forth. Other than that I was right here in Ogden yard for... the rest of the 37 years that I worked for the railroad. CG: Now how did you come about working for the railroad? How, how did that job come to be? GM: Now that's kind of a long story. I went to work at Hill Field that was in 19, oh, 1952 I guess 1951. I'll tell you our paycheck about every two weeks was about 95 dollars. And during that time a man come to my house I was living in Roy, in one of those little cinder blocks homes they had out there. Remember those? Arsenal, Arsenal Villa I think they called em. KM: That's right expansion because of the base population. GM: Yeah, so anyway a man come to the door and wanted to sell me a Kirby vacuum cleaner. So he come in and demonstrated. I didn't have enough money to buy a Kirby vacuum cleaner. He says, "Why don't you sell em and make enough to buy one?" So I say well I could do that part time, I needed a little extra money. So the first Saturday I worked selling Kirby’s I made more money than I made in two weeks working at the base. So I go “boy that's a pretty good deal.” So I quit working at the base and went to 6 work selling Kirby vacuum cleaners for about a year and a half. And then that got tiresome, the selling so I decided I had heard the railroad was hiring so I came down and applied for a job at the railroad. And when I got there, there were two lines and one was for carman and one was for switchman. And I didn't know anything about either one. But I ended up in the switchman's line so they hired me as a switchman in 1953. I worked as switchman until 1968. Fifteen years and then I went in the tower and got promoted to yard master and worked there from 1968 until 1991 when I retired. So... KM: Would you tell us what a switchman does? Give us a description of your day. What would you do as a switchman? GM: As a switchman? KM: Uh huh for your 8 hour day of employment. What would a typical day be like? GM: Okay. Well we'd come to work and we didn't have time clocks and the uh foreman kept a time sheet. And we had a stamp with our name on it. We'd punch that on the time slip and he'd fill that out in hours. And then uh we'd wait for instructions from the yardmaster. What we did was, the trains came into the yard and we had to separate into different trains going different directions. So he'd tell us what trains were to be switched and get a hold of it. And we'd go out and move the cars from one track to another until we got all the ones going south on one rail and the ones north going, they'd make up a train. That's what a switchman did. And also they switched spotted cars for the mills. You know the flour mills around, there's one here on 29th street. And we had spotted cars up in West Ogden up to that mill. So various different jobs did different had different places to work. But it was all you know moving freight cars. One spot to another. 7 CG: Now a rail master, a yardmaster when you were promoted, what does that entail? GM: Okay. Well your yardmaster is in the tower and directs all the traffic and he's the one that gives the instructions to the switchmen on what he wants done. And they're in charge of all the trains coming in and out of the yard. And getting the makeup. Now when I first went in the tower there were 3 telephones, 4 radio channels, and about 52 speakers out in the yard that you had to, to monitor. You were listening for radios all the time to see if any of them wanted to talk to you. Which you know, the train coming in the yard would say “28th street yard master we're here are you ready for us, where do you want us to go?” We'll say yeah we have track so and so. And after this train goes by or after we get this engine off the track then you can come in. So it's just, it's just guiding the trains and, and responsible for switching em, and making up other trains you know so it was, it was a busy job, it was you know. I could never figure out why they had 3 telephones you can only talk on one you know so. You talk on one another would ring the only thing you could do was take the other off the hook. So I finally said “Why don't you just put one phone in there, and if it’s busy they'll know you're not gonna talk to you anyway?” Haha. CG: Now just back to you were selling vacuums before, your last job before that as a salesman. How was the switch over? I mean you said you were you mentioned you were making pretty good money in the vacuum business. GM: Well at that time I was selling those it was right after the Second World War, appliances had been hard to get you know. Everything was going to the war effort. You couldn't get a lot of those things so they were pretty easy to sell. But as the time went on people all got em, it got harder and harder and... And... We had a few medical problems with my 8 wife at that time, and in order to sell you know you had to pretty upbeat. And if you got work, and if you're under pressure and that... It's hard to sell if you're under pressure. So anyway I decided I needed a regular job so that's when I went to work at the railroad. CG: Now how did you like switching from sales to the railroad tracks? Did... At that time were the railroads like an attractive job for a young man? GM: Well it was a dangerous job. But it paid, it was good, the wages were good you know. And I enjoyed it. I liked the guys I worked with. And it was shift work. I worked, in fact I worked nights mostly, and I worked a second job as a, I worked as a, hanging sheet rock and finishing sheet rock for my cousin. And then I liked sports so I started bowling you know. And I, so I went to work at a bowling alley as an assistant manager and manager of a bowling alley. So I'd work the bowling alley in the daytime and the railroad at night. KM: Did you ever go home? Hahahaha. GM: Well I had two days off at each job so I would alternate those so four days a week I only had to work one job and three days a week I had to work two jobs. But anyways it was... we raised six children, so I had six children too. KM: Would you tell us your wife's name? Tell us your wife's name. GM: Arlene. KM: Arlene. What was her family name? GM: Arlene Walker. KM: Arlene Walker. What are the names of your children? 9 GM: Well I have Cathleen... Ellen, Bradley. Bradley's a fireman here for the Ogden city. Then I had Tim, uh Brian, he was the fourth one, then Timothy then James. Had four boys and two girls, two oldest ones were girls. CG: Now working the two jobs, did you have a lot of time to spend with your children? Why don't you tell me a little about that? GM: Well, we got together quite a bit. We'd go to Bear Lake a couple times a year in the summer. And we'd spend a week and different things so. We moved to Hooper, lived in Washington Terrace for eleven years. That was pretty crowded, needed to get the kids out of the way from all this traffic and stuff. So we bought an acre in Hooper and built a home on it. So we lived in Hooper for, 1968 to 1989, so that's 21 years we lived in Hooper. And they had horses and I had a son Brian he trapped muskrats in those drain ditches out there. He made pretty good money for the muskrat hides. That was a good place to raise a family. And then after they all left I decided, we decided to move back closer to my work and get out of the fog. So we moved to Roy. CG: What year was your first child born? GM: My first job? CG: Your first child. What year were they born? Just so we have a time perspective. GM: Oh OK. Cathy was born in 1951. CG: 1951. So that was right around the time you began to work for the railroad. GM: That was when I was working selling vacuums at that particular time and then I went to work for the railroad the next year. 10 CG: That's good that's good. And you mentioned that you moved out to Hooper that in 1968 you moved from Hooper back to Roy. GM: No we lived in Washington Terrace for eleven years. And then we moved to Hooper, in 1968 we moved to Hooper. CG: OK, in 1968 you moved to Hooper. Correction I'm sorry about that. How long did you move out there until your last child moved out of the house? GM: Well let's see. My last... We moved back to Roy in 1989 and that was the year that our youngest son got married. And he left home in 1989. CG: Do you have any grandchildren? GM: Uh… 19. 19 grandchildren, 9 great grandchildren. CG: 9 great grandchildren. Big family. GM: Big family. We're all gonna get together at Thanksgiving in St. George. About every other year we try to get everybody together for Thanksgiving. It's close to 50 of us. With our children, their spouses, grandchildren and their spouses. Anyways. KM: How'd you come to volunteer at the station? How'd you get involved? You've got your badge on, your conductor's vest, and all of this. And how'd you get involved in doing this kind of work in your retirement? GM: Well OK. OK. I play golf a lot. And one of the fellows I played golf with was volunteering here at that time. And he used to be, worked for the railroad. KM: What was his name? GM: I... I can't think of it right now. 11 KM: You will. GM: I'll think of it. Anyway, he worked at the section I worked at. I was acquainted with him at work and the golf course. And he was volunteering. And he said “Why don't you come down?” and I said “I might as well I got time.” So I came down and started volunteering. That was... probably about five or six years ago. We go to St. George in the winter time and come back here in the summer. So I volunteer about 6 months every year. KM: What do you like about the work? GM: About the volunteering? KM: Uh huh. GM: I love meeting people from all over the world. It's not just local people. There's people from Sweden, Germany, Ireland everywhere. You know it seems like nearly every week you meet somebody from one of those places. KM: What kinds of things do you like to tell them about the station? Do you have a particular story about the station that you like to tell the visitors? GM: Well I like to tell them about the original station and how it burnt down. I like to talk about that scale, that scale down there has a very interesting background. I don't know if you seen that scale down there. That was put here in 1888 when the first depot was built here. That depot burnt down 1923, but the scale wasn't damaged. So they left it in its original spot and rebuilt this depot around it. So that scales been there for 120 years. Every Tuesday when I come to work I weigh myself before I leave home and when I get here I go on that scale. Seeing it's always within two pounds of what my scale at home is. 12 KM: That's pretty good. Pretty accurate scale. Haha. GM: So I enjoy talking about that, and I enjoy talking about the trestle. That trestle is a very interesting part of the railroad you know. Built there in 1904 and carried trains over that lake for 50 years before it started getting pretty shaky you know. They knew it wasn't going to last much longer so they built the causeway. So which is what they use today is the causeway. The trestle still sit there for forty years after they built the causeway. First as an emergency in case the causeway got flooded or washed out. But then it got so rickety they couldn't use it anyway. Canon construction got the contract to salvage all that lumber out there. There were 238,000 pine pilings in that trestle. Bout 50, 60 feet long you know, and that big around. And then all the braces at the top are redwood which is valuable lumber. So they got the salvage rights. And it's all torn down now you know. But that lumbers been used in several buildings. There's a place park in Salt Lake that big barn was made from the trestle, Ogden nature center was built with trestle wood, the museum on Antelope Island was built from trestle wood. KM: Well used. Craig: That's interesting. GM: There's a company that bought that redwood to make trestle wood furniture. KM: That's right. I've seen some of that. Do you miss not living in Hooper? Or has Hooper changed so much? GM: It's changed a lot. I mean when we went out there, there was very few new homes. You know we were one of the intruders you might say. But now all those cornfields are 13 turned to houses. There’s just... it's amazing what's happened out there. So. We enjoyed living out there. KM: Did you do any farming? Or did you have a big vegetable garden? Or did you raise any alfalfa for the horses? GM: Oh yeah we had a, always had a big vegetable garden. Raised tomatoes, and potatoes, and carrots and all that stuff you know. All that stuff we could store. And the kids had horses there, they had horses. And one boy he had magpies and squirrels and all kinds of stuffs in pens that he liked to be with. CG: Did you like to, did you ride horses? Were you a fan? GM: No, I was not. I just paid for em and bought the hay. Yeah the kids did the riding. Oh yeah I didn't mind em you know. But I wasn't a horse person, particularly. CG: Did you have a family dog? GM: Yes, we had a dog and a cat. They were outside dogs and cats though. CG: Sounds like you guys had a nice little animal collection over there. Alright let's just go back to the railroad. You mentioned about the trestle being torn down and salvaged. Just briefly tell me any changes that you noticed over your time working here that just kind of stuck out to you. Anything, stories you like to tell people here. Any of, just the major differences over the years you've seen change with the railroad. GM: Well when I started working as a yard master there were seven yard masters in the Ogden yard. And there were about 32 switch engines working all the time. Like I said seven yard masters plus the superintendent and the assistant superintendent, and this was really busy out here. But as the years went by they incorporated this job with this 14 job and then the computers came in. And they took away a lot of the clerks’ positions. When I retired in 1991 there was two yard masters, where there used to be seven. And they cover just as big a yard as the seven did. But that's the business had gone down and they did it so much different you know than they used to. Those computers made a big difference. A yard master you know used to have to, a clerk would have to keep track of cars in a rail so you'd know how many cars are in there. With the computers you could push a button it'd tell you how many cars were in a rail, how much tonnage there was in the rail, and you could pick out an individual car and figure out how much tonnage was in each car and how long they were, collectively or individually. So that did away with a lot of the clerks, they didn't have to check em you know. When you're building a train, like going up Weber canyon you could only haul 6,000 ton with three engine, so you had to keep track of how many ton was in a rail so you didn't go over you know. If you went over that 6,000 ton they had to add an extra engine which, then they could go to 8,000. But anyway that... KM: Did you do much traveling by train? GM: Not a lot. I had a son living in Las Vegas and we'd get on the train go down there occasionally. My wife and I we had a pass, of course. And we went to Oregon a couple times on a train. KM: How did you like train travel? GM: I enjoyed it, you could get up and move around you know. You weren't locked in like... of course it took a lot longer. I enjoyed being on a train. 15 CG: You mentioned you had a pass. Working here you were entitled to a pass for train travel? GM: Right, you had to pick your, when they gave the passes they had the union pacific and the southern pacific and you had to pick out which railroad you wanted your pass assigned through. So, now the Union Pacific owns just about it all so it's just one railroad now. But at that time I picked the UP so I could free passes on the Union Pacific train. If you went on a foreign railroad you had to pay half fare. CG: Oh OK. That's a nice little perk to have for working there certainly. GM: Yeah. CG: People you met nowadays you say were coming in here you get to meet people from different countries and everything. How about working here, when you were working the yard did you meet different people through the train industry? Engineers, conductors, workers, people traveling. GM: Well there were switching jobs that had to be here to switch the passenger trains. They'd come in night and morning. So if you were on one of those jobs that switched the passenger trains they tried to get us here a half hour to an hour earlier than the train so we were available as soon as those trains came in to switch em. So if we get here a half hour or so early we'd come in the depot and find out where the train was and what time it was due. And we could spend some time sitting there in the station waiting for the train and that was quite interesting to see all the different people you know. It’s different now they used to have about fifteen or twenty benches in there and not just the two that you see now. 16 CG: Like, America's gone through hard times and such, with different industries. You've worked here, you've worked here for very many years. Was there ever, umm it was consistent work. That's pretty much what I'm trying to ask you. There was always a demand for... GM: Oh it was seniority, seniority. Now the earlier you worked here the longer you could stay. Like I said the first three years I had to leave town because I didn't have enough seniority. In the winter there wasn't near as much business as in the summer. So they'd cut back on the help. In fact, out of the 37 years I worked here, I never had a Saturday and Sunday off as assigned days off. I had some with Friday and Saturday and some with Sunday and Monday. But I never had enough seniority to hold a job that had Saturday and Sunday like most people do. Probably out of those 37 years I may have not worked three Christmases. And I don't remember a Thanksgiving that I didn't work. A lot of that was my own choice because you got time and a half for working the holiday plus a day's pay for being a holiday. CG: How long did you work your second job for? Well like eventually did you drop the second, and just consistently work here? GM: Well when I went in the tower in 1968, my wages were increased a bit. That's when I quit the second job. CG: Opened up quite a bit of time for you? Personal time. GM: Well, yeah I guess. I got to sleep more. Yeah it was working nights and another job it was hard to figure out your sleeping times you know. Working nights and sleeping days was kinda like working days actually because you were sleeping while the kids were in 17 school and you were working while they were asleep so your time after school when they got home was similar as if you were you know working days. Coming home, you know we had all the evenings together so it worked out pretty good. CG: You mentioned you've gone to Bear Lake with your kids and such. Any other vacations? Or did you guys go camping? GM: Well, we didn't have any big vacation not really. Just weekends and things that we'd go. Bear Lake was our big trip. Kids would look forward to that every year. I did my part time work in a bowling alley. I enjoyed that because I liked bowling you know. KM: Did you belong to a bowling league? GM: Yes. KM: What was the name of the league? GM: Ogden Scratch League is what one was called. And umm what was the others? I forget what the... my wife bowled too so we bowled in a mixed league. I think it was called Mixed Doubles. KM: What was the name of your team? Did you have a team name? GM: Well, I had a lot of sponsors. Over the years different... I usually bowled in a travelling league it was a scratch league. Each bowling alley would have a team and we'd bowl at a different bowling alley each week. And there was eight bowling alleys so we had eight, eight teams. It was a travelling league so we'd travel around and bowl. KM: What was your best game? GM: Oh 300. 18 KM: Oh that's good. GM: Twice. KM: That's pretty good. GM: Yeah in fact that ring is a 300 award ring. KM: When did that happen? GM: This, in 1976. And one in 1972 is the other I think. KM: That's great. GM: Now if I could get this ring off I could read it on there, I think 1972. CG: You went on to pick up golf too? You're an avid golfer? GM: Yeah I play golf. CG: I worked at a golf course over the summer. I like golf. GM: Yeah I play golf about three times a week now. CG: Do you? Where do you play out of? GM: We play at Riverside. When I first started we were called the railroaders. When I first started going with them I guess 25 or 30 years ago they would go to a different golf course every day. Five days a week. You'd draw a card for partners, and have four to a team. So every day you'd be at a different golf course golfing with somebody different. So it'd be pretty interesting. Now they only play three days a week now. So... CG: What's your handicap? Beat you to it. 19 GM: Well we don't. Probably golf is my handicap. We don't, I don't have a handicap we just go and play and we have our own little group so. KM: Mr. Miller we are mindful of the time. And I agreed that we would work with you about forty or fifty minutes. But I want to make sure that my student has a chance to ask a last question. And we really appreciate your taking time with this. CG: He, he satisfied all of my questions. We ate up my questions quite a bit ago. This was a great interview. It was my pleasure and thank you very much for being available for all these questions. It was great. 20