Oral History Program Rodney H. Brady Interviewed by John R. Sillito 30 May 1980 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Rodney H. Brady Interviewed by John R. Sillito University Archivist 30 May 1980 Copyright © 2012 by Weber State University, Stewart Library iii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description The Weber State College Oral History Program was created in the early 1970s to “record and document, through personal reminiscences, the history, growth and development of Weber State College.” Through interviews with administrators, faculty and students, the program’s goal was to expand the documentary holdings on Weber State College and its predecessor entities. From 1970 to 1976, the program conducted some fifteen interviews, under the direction of, and generally conducted by Harold C. Bateman, an emeritus professor of history. In 1979, under the direction of archivist John Sillito, the program was reestablished and six interviews were conducted between 1979 and 1983. Additional interviews were conducted by members of the Weber State community. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Brady, Rodney H., an oral history by John R. Sillito, 30 May 1980, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. Rodney H. Brady 1 Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Rodney H. Brady (born 1933). Mr. Brady served as president of Weber State College from 1978 to 1985. The interview was conducted on May 30, 1980 by John R. Sillito in order to gather President Brady’s recollections and experiences with Weber State College. JS: To begin, I'd be interested in some general information concerning your parents, your siblings, and where you were born—just some general biographical information. RB: I was born in Sandy, Utah, in the family home. Our home was located just east of Sandy, at 8395 South on 10th East. That home was on a piece of property originally settled by my great grandfather, Marion Hendrickson Brady. Through the years, the property was passed down in the family until my father ended up with approximately fifteen acres of it. My father's name was Kenneth Anderson Brady. He was born and raised in the home right next door—to the north of the home in which I was raised. His parents were Lindsay Anderson Brady and Ellen Catherine Anderson. He graduated from the University of Utah and during much of his life was involved in business and in the public school system. JS: As a teacher? RB: As a teacher. Though during a period of about fifteen years—he and a cousin, Donald B. Milne, who owned a chain of electrical appliance stores in the Salt Lake Valley, which was a very successful venture for them. JS: What was the name of that chain? 2 RB: Brady Milne Appliance Company. As a youth, after school and on weekends, I often worked at that appliance store. Then, during the 1960s, my father served as a member of the Utah House of Representatives representing South Salt Lake Valley. My father passed away in 1970. He was also one of the civic and church leaders of the area. At the time of his death he was the patriarch of the Sandy East Stake. My mother was born and raised in Mt. Pleasant. Her parents were Andrew Oscar Madsen and Rozina Fechser. Mother's name was Jessie Amelia Madsen. Her father was a sheep rancher. She completed high school in Sanpete County and attended Snow College and Brigham Young University. She became a school teacher, and it was a result of her being assigned the same school in Union, Salt Lake County, Utah, at which my father was also assigned, that they got together. JS: So I gather from what you told me that you come from a family that is very much influenced by education. Both of your parents went to college at a time when that was not typical. Do you think that has influenced your decision to pursue a career in higher education? RB: It clearly has been a major influence in my life. Surely it gave me a major head start. I recall as a young lad, probably four or five years of age, my mother sat myself and my brother on the couch beside her and taught us to read. By the time we reached first grade, we were well along in the development of such skills. It was expected all through my academic years that school should come first and that I should do well. 3 JS: Now, as you have mentioned to me, you've gone into great detail in a couple of volumes that you have produced about your early life, so we won't spend a lot of time discussing that today. I would be interested to know how many sisters and brothers you have. RB: My parents were married in 1930. In late 1931, the first son was born. He was named K. Madsen Brady; he's my older brother. Then a year after that, January 31, 1933, I was born. So I'm the second son. About a year and a half later, on June 2, 1934 my only sister was born. Her name is Joanne Brady, now Frandsen. She lives in Sandy. She married a young man from Sandy by the name of Dean Ivan Frandsen. Then about two and a half years after my younger sister was born, on December 8, 1936, another younger brother was born. His name is Lindsay Anderson Brady. He's named after my grandfather as well as my great-great-grandfather. So there were the four of us children in the family. JS: I see. So you spent your childhood and elementary school years in Sandy? RB: My elementary school years were in Sandy Elementary School, which has since then been torn down—a tall, three-story, typical Utah elementary school—and I completed my first six years there. The junior high school I attended was located next door to the Sandy Elementary School—that was the Sandy Junior High School. Then I attended high school at the Jordan High School, about a mile away from the junior high school and elementary school. JS: What year did you graduate from high school? RB: I graduated from high school in 1951. My courses there were largely science and mathematics oriented. I graduated number one in my class. I was the 4 valedictorian. There were approximately four hundred graduates that year. I was very active in many kinds of extracurricular activities. I always had the great desire to be an athlete but had very little natural ability. I tried very hard and had only modest success. My father had made quite a name for himself as an athlete. When he had been in Jordan High School, he was captain of the football team, captain of the basketball team, president of the student body—those kind of things. JS: So you had big shoes to fill. RB: That's right. Also my older brother did very well in athletics. But when I was a young man about six years old—that was the summer before I went to elementary school—I got very, very ill and spent many days at the LDS Hospital in Salt Lake with pneumonia and some complications and came out pretty weak. It took me many years to gain back my full health and strength, and that kind of put me behind a little bit as far as athletics is concerned. So when it became clear to me that I wasn't going to become an all-state basketball player, I decided to turn my major efforts toward such activities as the high school newspaper which I edited. As a debater, I was a championship debater at Jordan High School, and other kinds of forensics and dramatic activities as well as a very strong emphasis on science. So that was the direction to which I turned my attention. JS: You mentioned also that you served a mission in Britain. Did you go directly on a mission or did you go to college for a while? 5 RB: I graduated from high school in the spring of 1951. Immediately upon graduation, I entered the University of Utah, summer quarter. I attended the University for four straight quarters; then took a summer off, working with my father in his appliance business; then returned to the University of Utah for a second full year. All this time I was planning to go on a mission but not being able to because the Korean War was in process. They weren't allowing the missionaries to go because of their eligibility for the draft. But in the spring and summer of 1953 the policy changed a little bit. They allowed one missionary per ward to be called into the mission field and I was called as the one from our ward. During the fall of 1953 I left on my mission. JS: So you were twenty when you left on your mission? RB: Right. JS: You served in Britain? RB: Great Britain. JS: Again, you have gone into great detail about your missionary years in your prepared volumes, so we won't ask questions about that in this interview for the college unless there's something that you think is important to mention in terms of what impact it might have had on your career. RB: Well, perhaps I should go back a little bit. Though I've given the following insight into my life many times, both here at the college and elsewhere, in years past, it justifies repeating. When I was a senior in high school, my high school debate coach, Phil Goldbranson, called me aside one day and told me—as I'm sure he told many, many other young people—that I could accomplish anything I wanted 6 to in life if I would simply decide what it was that I wanted to accomplish. I asked him, "How do I determine what I want to accomplish?" and he suggested that I spend twenty or thirty minutes simply listing all those achievements that I wanted to accomplish in life. And I did that. JS: This was while you were still in high school? RB: That was early in my senior year, yes. So I made up a long list of things that I wanted to accomplish, and they ended up being one hundred fifty in number. I gave this list to Mr. Goldbranson and he seemed really quite amazed with what I had done. I received the impression from his reaction that maybe I was one of the first students who had really taken him up on his suggestion. Then he said, “Though I'm really impressed with what you have done, you've really only begun the process. Now what I would like you to do is take a separate sheet of paper for each of those goals, list the goal at the top and then below the goal statement list the steps that you will have to go through to get from where you are now to the achievement of that goal.” For the next few months I spent a lot of time doing just what Mr. Goldbranson had suggested. In the process of thinking through what it would take to achieve those goals, some of the goals changed a little bit. It also triggered my thinking process so that I identified some additional goals. I ended up with 175 goals, structured a little bit different from those that I had originally listed. I took the resulting stack of 175 sheets of paper back to Mr. Goldbranson, and he was really amazed this time. [laughter] After looking through these papers, he said, "Well, your task has still only begun. Now what you have to do is do those things that are on that list." 7 Well, the goals on that original list are wide ranging. They fall into eight basic categories. I give you this background because this will help you and others understand the goal orientation that I have utilized throughout my life since the above related experience in order to accomplish some of the things that I have achieved. The first category included spiritual goals; at that time I was thinking very seriously about going on a mission and getting prepared. There were some family goals, there were some professional goals, some educational goals, some financial goals, and some cultural and creative goals. In those days there were still some athletic goals. Those that didn't fit into one of the already mentioned seven categories became miscellaneous goals. So that was the basic goal structure. The top category on the list was spiritual goals, and one of those spiritual goals was to prepare to go on a mission. My father had served a mission in Great Britain and I can remember when I was a very young child we used to play a little game. Dad would have me spin the globe, close my eyes, put my finger on that globe and wherever it stopped that was where I might go on my mission, and I was always hoping my finger would land on Great Britain. By the time that I got ready to go on my mission I had taken courses in both German and Russian. I remember being interviewed by Elder LeGrand Richards who'd just been made an apostle. In those days all missionaries, before they went on missions, were interviewed by general authorities of the church. He looked at the background statement that each missionary had to fill out and noticed that my father had gone to Great Britain. He asked me where I might want to go, and I said, "Well, it 8 would be wonderful if I could go to the same place as my father." His response was, "You know they don't speak German and Russian in Great Britain." That comment pretty well caused me to think that I was maybe going to a foreign speaking nation. But when the call came, guess where I was going. JS: It was to Great Britain. RB: Yes. Now as far as what that mission did for me and prepared me to do in later life, those things are outlined in one of these volumes here, but maybe I could just summarize some of them here. My mission clearly provided me an opportunity to obtain a growth in testimony, which gave me the conviction and the will to continue very active in the church and develop myself in that way. I developed great personal confidence in myself and certainly I grew in the ability to relate effectively with other people. It taught me to express myself far more effectively than I would have gained in any other way. Certainly I gained a growth in the knowledge of the gospel and the scriptures, growth in leadership skills— during much of my mission I was serving in the leadership of the mission. I got some real good experience in leadership. Certainly I gained an exposure to many outstanding people after whom I might want to pattern my life, many of them being general authorities of the church, but others as well. A growth in the knowledge about religion and society outside of the centers of Mormonism where I had grown up, a growth and a knowledge of the history and the culture of Great Britain, tremendous growth in learning how to manage my time wisely and effectively and the growth in my understanding of the importance of serving others. 9 JS: So in a number of ways— RB: In a number of ways, it was really a very, very important phase in my life. Among those whom I got to know well while I was on that mission was even the Prime Minister of Great Britain, Winston Churchill, and that is all recorded in these documents, so rather than to spend this time on the tape sharing all that with you, that's all a matter of record. JS: I appreciate that. I hope that down the road in the future we can have a copy of those in the archives. RB: You certainly can. Perhaps I ought to share a copy of each of those volumes now. JS: We would love to have them in the archives, if you feel comfortable with that. RB: I would feel comfortable, as long as they were used for the right purposes. JS: Certainly. I appreciate that. RB: Because if you go through those documents you will see every grade I ever received in junior high, high school and college. JS: You're a courageous historian! I can tell they're very detailed and that's good information to have. I get the impression from what you're telling me both by your own inclinations and your own background, your ancestry, that church responsibilities, civic responsibilities, educational responsibilities, and goals were very much interwoven in your make-up, that you saw these things as all part of the total picture. RB: That's right, and if I were to list for you all those goals that I set way back many years ago, you'd really be quite surprised to see some of those things that were 10 listed there. Included among those goals was that someday I wanted to run a major corporation, which I have done. I wanted to provide high level government service, which I have done—the years I spent in Washington as assistant secretary of HEW. Included in that list is the desire to serve someday as the President of a fine college. JS: Here you are. RB: There are some others there that if I were to share with you today you would have an advance understanding of some things that I might even be doing beyond the time that my services here at the college might be useful. So there's really a broad variety of interests. In the cultural-creativity activity, I decided that I wanted to learn how to play a musical instrument proficiently. Someday, I wanted to compose a significant piece of music. I wanted to become a proficient landscape painter; Winston Churchill even stimulated me in that interest. I identified five books that I wanted to write. I wanted some day to patent an invention. There's a wide range of possibilities that I laid out for myself. Basically, my philosophy is that when one starts to try to structure a life for oneself, and wants that life to be a success, he can really take one of two routes, or some middle path between two extremes. One path is that of a specialist where you decide on a fairly narrow field in which you are going to become perhaps that most knowledgeable person in the world on a particular subject or the most proficient person at some particular skill. The other alternative path is to select a broad range of activities that you're going to become proficient at, in no one of which are you going to become the world's expert. The latter path might 11 lead one to becoming the "renaissance man," one who is proficient in many things. As I carefully analyzed these alternatives as a very young man in high school, I concluded that the alternative that seemed the most interesting to me would be the approach of gaining extensive exposure and experience in a broad variety of fields, rather than narrowing my scope to one very specialized field. Prior to going through the aforementioned goal-setting exercise, I was on my way toward a career in science or medicine; after going through this exercise I had clearly changed my direction to that of business or law. JS: So this was a major turning point in your development? RB: It was. It was the major turning point. JS: I see. I gather there are still a few goals on the list to accomplish. RB: Oh yes, and the list isn’t static. New ones get added, and others that later seem less important than they did at earlier times may even be dropped from the list. You often times find me disappearing from society for a few days each year between the first of December and the end of January. During those few days I am pretty well isolated. During that time I carefully review that which has been accomplished during the past year, documenting the year's accomplishments so that I have a record of what has been achieved. I then evaluate where I stand with respect to the goal structure that I have set. At the same time, I lay out a specific plan for the next year, so I identify specifically that which I want to achieve with respect to the goal structure during the next year. I also carefully review the goal structure itself and ask myself the question, "Are each of these 12 goals still relevant?" If they aren't, they get set aside. Then I also ask myself the question, "Are there other goals that aren't on the list that need to be added?" So this is an on-going process. JS: It's a procedure of setting goals, reviewing, reassessing, and making some sort of summary. RB: Of course with every goal, you find the goal at the top of the sheet and listed on that sheet are the steps that will take me from where I am now to the point of achieving each goal, and so I have a means of measuring my progress and performing specific tasks that will lead me to achieving each goal. So that's the basic process. JS: It's an amazing process. RB: In fact, someday I will even write a book on that process. I've probably told the students here at the college that basic story and shared with them this process, I would guess on fifty to a hundred occasions. In fact just this week I spoke in two classes here on campus, and shared with them that basic process, and I’m still looking for the right way to see that every student at the college at least gets exposed to that philosophy, because I'm convinced that every student in the college will benefit. In fact, you may be acquainted with a list of sixteen principles that I have been sharing with the students here. The very first principle on that list is: I believe that a goal-oriented life is far more likely to lead to success than a life that leaves success to chance. 13 JS: That's interesting. You said you shifted your interests from the possible career of science and medicine to the career of law or business, went on your mission, returned, and then you returned to the University of Utah— RB: I left on my mission in October of 1953, returned in November of 1955, reentered the University of Utah, winter quarter 1956, went straight through, including the next summer, until the spring of 1957, graduating in June of 1957. During the last three of those quarters, during my senior year, I was also enrolled in the master's degree program at the U of U. JS: MBA? RB: Yes. I received both my bachelor's and master's degrees from the University of Utah in June of 1957. JS: You received both at the same time? RB: Right. I received my bachelor's degree in accounting with highest honors and was number one in my MBA class; I was a four-point student. While in college I was very much involved in student activities. In addition to certain service organizations, I was a debater (my share of trophies are still in the trophy case at the University of Utah) and I was also involved in publications. JS: With the Chronicle? RB: Right, the Chronicle and the yearbook. JS: So I gather that you then changed your mind and centered on a career in business rather than on law. RB: Actually, I was still ambivalent between law and business right up to the time of my graduation. In the autumn of 1957, I decided to continue my schooling 14 beyond my graduation from the University of Utah, and was accepted to both the Harvard Law School and the Harvard Business School. It wasn't until I got back to Harvard that I decided for sure which school I was going to go to. JS: What was it that tipped the balance in favor of business? RB: Well, as I analyzed my reasons for wanting to get a law degree, I concluded that I really wanted to prepare myself for business. What's more, as I looked at all the other things that I wanted to accomplish in life, I could not see myself accomplishing them if I was simply selling my own time, which is basically what a lawyer or physician technically does. Whereas in the business world I could see that I could through managing other people, perhaps get many things accomplished in an organization which might free myself up to do some of these other things that I wanted to do as well. JS: I see. RB: There were also some economic considerations. JS: And it seems to me that [a business career] would more closely fit your concept of the generalist or the Renaissance man opposed to the specialist. RB: That's right. JS: When did you graduate from Harvard? RB: Well, I attended the Harvard Business School for the years 1957 to 1958 and 1958 to 1959. JS: So it was a two year program? RB: It was normally a three to four year program, but by the end of my second year I had completed all the requirements for my doctorate except for my dissertation 15 and was ranked number one in my class. However, while I was at the University of Utah, I had been in ROTC and there continued to be a military requirement for most young men. JS: I'm familiar with that process. RB: At the end of my second year at Harvard the powers that be in the military decided that I had delayed my military service long enough, so I was called to active duty as an officer in the Air Force—without having completed my dissertation. JS: How long were you in the military? RB: Three years, 1959 to 1962. I was assigned to the staff of the Auditor General of the Air Force. I spent my entire military career negotiating government contracts on major weapon systems and carefully reviewing the efficiency of various industrial plants that were developing and manufacturing weapons. Frankly, each of the three years I spent in the military service were equivalent in learning to each of the years I spent in college or graduate school or quite frankly any year since then in the business world, because I was involved directly in making major business decisions. I entered the Air Force as a second lieutenant; rose to the grade of first lieutenant; and finally to captain. I was stationed all this period in Tucson, Arizona. Within about six months after arriving in Tucson, I met a young lady by the name of Carolyn Ann Hansen—she goes by Mitzi. After about ten months courtship, we were married. Mitzi was born and raised in Tremonton, Utah. After completing her work at Bear River High School, where she also graduated as valedictorian, Mitzi went to the University of 16 Utah. Although her first two years at the University of Utah were the years that I was on my mission the second two years she was there coincided with my final two years at the University. JS: But you didn't know her? RB: I didn't know her. I dated several of her sorority sisters in the Chi Omega sorority but I didn't ever have the occasion to meet her. After arriving in Tucson, as an extracurricular activity, I volunteered to do some teaching at the LDS Institute of Religion at the University of Arizona, and it was through that contact that I met her. She had graduated from the University of Utah at the same graduation exercise as I in 1957. She then went to West Point, New York, to the military academy and taught fifth grade at the post school there for one year. The next year she went to El Paso, Texas, and taught for a year. Then in the third year after her graduation from the U of U, she transferred to Tucson, Arizona, and that's where I met her. JS: Let's turn our attention now to the years just prior to coming to Weber State, unless there is something you want to add to the earlier period that we have been talking about. RB: I could probably give you a little background concerning the intervening period. In 1962, I was discharged from the military and returned to Cambridge, Massachusetts, intending immediately to write my dissertation. However, I got involved in business with a professor of mine at Harvard, Dr. J. Sterling Livingston, one of the most renowned professors in business school. I entered into the management consulting business with him and several associates. The 17 firm was called Management Systems Corporation. I soon was made vice president of that consulting business. Dr. Livingston being the president, and we built that consulting business to approximately seventy five full time consultants throughout the country and abroad serving most of the federal government agencies, many large industrial companies and several foreign countries. During that time period, of course, my wife and I were living in Cambridge, Massachusetts. I got so involved in the consulting business that I could not find the time to write my doctoral dissertation. But in 1965, we decided to sell Management Systems Corporation to the large public accounting firm, Peat, Marwick and Mitchell, and it became the management services end of that accounting firm. JS: Now, that's not related to the corporation with the same name in Salt Lake. RB: No, no. It isn't. I think it's just a coincidence that they are both named the same. The Management Systems Corporation became the management services end of Peat, Marwick and Mitchell. I was offered a partnership in Peat, Marwick and Mitchell, but at the same time one of my clients offered me a position as a senior officer and executive, so I decided that I would engage in managing a business after having spent several years telling other people how to manage their businesses. JS: To see if you could really do it. RB: That's right. JS: What company was that? 18 RB: The Hughes Tool Company. That was the central corporation that held much of Howard Hughes' empire. I became vice president for administration of the Hughes Tool Company in Culver City, California. JS: So you left Cambridge for California? RB: It was in 1965 that we sold the management consulting firm. I continued as a consultant to the consulting firm for the next eight or nine months. Concurrent with that, I worked full time on my doctoral dissertation, that doctoral dissertation being entitled, The Impact of Computers on Top Management Decision Making in the Defense and Aerospace Industry. I completed my dissertation in the spring of 1966 and thus received my Doctor of Business Administration degree from Harvard in the June graduation of 1966. It was in May of 1966 that I joined the Hughes Tool Company. By the way, my doctoral dissertation was named the outstanding dissertation at Harvard University that year and was entered in a national competition in which it took second place nationwide that year. The year before there had been another Harvard dissertation take first place, sO maybe I got boxed out [laughter]. JS: They didn't want Harvard two years in a row. Was that published or— RB: It's not published in its total form. Aspects of that dissertation and a total summary of that dissertation have both been published in various journals, magazines and so forth. If one wants to obtain a summary of it, one can obtain that in a 1967 edition of the Harvard Business Review. JS: I see. I assume the dissertation is in abstract. 19 RB: Yes, it is, and there's a copy of it right over there [pointing]—that red book there. The other document on top of that happens to be my master's thesis from the University of Utah which dealt with equipment replacement analysis. In those days the MBA at the University of Utah required a thesis. JS: Has that changed? RB: It's probably not very common now. Maybe some institutions still require a master's thesis, but not many. JS: So, in 1966 you went to Culver City to be with Hughes Tool Company. RB: Yes. We rented an apartment for a while then purchased a home in the Westwood area. From 1966 to 1970 we lived in Southern California for about four and a half years. We became very much a part of that community during that period. I became bishop of the Westwood Ward of the LDS church, the ward just behind the Los Angeles Temple, and became very much involved in the leadership of the community and the chamber of commerce, serving on the chamber of commerce committees and leadership activities there. The principal products that we designed, manufactured and distributed at the Hughes Tool Company were various kinds of weapon systems helicopters and aerial-borne gun systems. JS: This was during the Vietnam build up? RB: That's right. We also made oil drilling equipment, quite a wide range of different products. The company was wholly owned by Howard Hughes. JS: Do you have any Howard Hughes stories—about his eccentricities? 20 RB: I do. That would take an entire volume [laughter]. That in itself would be a good topic for a book someday, perhaps. There was a unique climate within the Hughes Tool Company that fostered the development of advanced technology and scientific equipment. During this period—while living in Westwood—our first two children were born. Our first child was named Howard Riley Brady; he was born on April 1, 1967. Our second son, whose name is Bruce Ryan Brady, was born on December 18, 1968. JS: Now how many children do you have? RB: We have three boys. Our third son was also born in California but during a later period. He was born May 13, 1973. JS: What's his name? RB: His name is Brook Alan Brady. JS: What were the circumstances around your decision to join the Nixon administration as an assistant secretary? RB: Well, during my years in the consulting business I had dealt extensively with various governmental agencies, had provided consulting services to many government agencies in helping them to operate effectively. I'd gained a wide reputation as a management expert. The doctoral dissertation that I had written at Harvard and articles that I published gave me considerable exposure throughout the country as a management expert. So I became quite well known in management circles. At the time that Richard Nixon was elected President in 1968, I had a number of inquiries as to whether I would be interested in joining 21 his administration at that time. I was right in the middle of some very important developments with Hughes Tool Company, and the time just did not seem right. By 1970, however, many of those developments had been completed, and a new secretary was just being appointed for HEW. Elliot L. Richardson, a person who had known of my background and my reputation. He was looking for a person who could run HEW from the inside and be overall general manager of HEW. JS: So that was your responsibility? RB: That's right. So when I was contacted by the White House, I decided that this would be a good time to provide high-level government service. Therefore, in November of 1970, I went to Washington with the understanding that I would be in the government for only a year and a half or maybe two years, not wanting to become a permanent government bureaucrat. But it seemed to me like a wonderful opportunity to serve for a year or so. What's more, I had a great interest in the social programs of the nation and thought I could bring to the public sector some of the management tools and skills that I had developed and used in the research, development and manufacturing sectors of the economy. So I became assistant secretary for administration and management at the Department of Health, Education and Welfare in November of 1970. JS: You served for two years? RB: I served for two years—until November of 1972. I had actually decided to return to private business in the summer of 1972 but was convinced by the president and Secretary Richardson to remain until after the 1972 elections. 22 JS: So, did you submit your resignation after the election along with most of the people in the administration? RB: Well, I submitted my resignation about three months before the election. JS: But it wasn't accepted? RB: I was encouraged to stay until after the election. I was able to make arrangements with my new employer to delay my reporting date until November of 1972. JS: So, you were not in the Nixon administration during the period of Watergate investigations or any of that, when Elliot Richardson distinguished himself. RB: Right, I was not. But I might say that one of the features that really attracted me to Washington was Elliot Richardson. I saw in Elliot Richardson a person of extraordinary character as well as a person of extraordinary ability, and for a twoyear period he was one of my closest confidants and a person that I really learned to admire and trust. Elliot Richardson had obtained tremendous experience up to that point and had a superb legal and analytical mind, but you can find many attorneys that have those skills. He also had an administrative viewpoint that enabled him to make decisions without always wanting more analysis. Most lawyers I found are always looking for more and more information in order to do more analysis, and they develop what I call "analysis paralysis." They can't move because they are constantly analyzing. But I saw in Elliot Richardson a person who could be decisive and who would also rely very heavily on my advice as far as people, administrative processes and the management of 23 programs were concerned. That's really what attracted me to Washington at that particular time. JS: More than simply a commitment to President Nixon. RB: That's right. While serving in HEW, I set up an entirely new management system and process, patterned after what one might call the "management by objective" system. In fact, in 1973 the Harvard Business Review published an article in which I described that whole management process. The title of that article is MBO in the Public Sector. We developed a system whereby specific objectives were set throughout the entire sprawling HEW. At that time HEW accounted for approximately one third of the total federal budget of approximately $300 billion, so the HEW budget was about $100 billion. My objective was to obtain management control over this sprawling bureaucracy, to manage HEW far more efficiently, and to reduce substantially the number of employees in the department. Quite frankly, I believe that we increased the efficiency of the department substantially during that time period. I left HEW in November of 1972 at about the same time as Elliot Richardson left HEW to become secretary of defense. If I had so desired I could have gone with him to the defense department to apply some of the same management principles in DOD as we implemented at HEW, or I could have stayed at HEW. But I was ready to move on at that point. JS: Well, you probably got out of the Nixon administration at good time, as later events proved. 24 RB: That's right; but I had a lot of admiration for President Nixon. He was a person with great insight, in international affairs in particular. Many of his domestic programs I also thought were sound. During my last year in the government, concurrent with serving as assistant secretary of HEW, I was elected by all my fellow sub-cabinet officers as chairman of the sub-cabinet executive officers' group. From this assignment I got the good view of the total federal government and the programs throughout, and I felt good about most of the basic policies that were operative. I was also chairman of a major task force looking at new ways of restructuring the organization of the federal government. In my judgment, President Nixon had a couple of factors that caused his difficulty. One, he obviously had some personal character flaws, but then don't we all. Quite frankly, I didn't see these flaws show up while I was in Washington. I found my contact with him to be very civil and gentlemanly, but subsequent events showed that he lacked something in his character. But another major difficulty that he had, which is a difficulty that I believe that former presidents have had and that subsequent presidents will continue to have unless we make some basic changes, is that we have our federal government organized in such a way that the president cannot effectively manage. Between 1970 and 1972, there were eleven cabinet level departments plus fifty-five independent agencies, ranging from NASA to the Veterans' Administration, all fifty-five of which reported directly to the president. Now how can one man manage sixty-five or more executives who report directly to him? It is impossible. What does one do when 25 one finds oneself in that bind? One has to establish an additional echelon that helps him manage; so the President has to establish a very strong White House staff. JS: And yet that further isolates him. RB: That's what I say, it further isolates him. My contact and Elliot Richardson's contacts with the President were essentially all through his chairman of the domestic council, John Ehrlichman. But then, the same thing could be said for foreign policy. JS: Sure. RB: At that time foreign policy was all channeling through Henry Kissinger and each of the major areas of government had to work through the large White House staff. Well, quite frankly, the president was forced into the position of having to run his campaign the same way, that is, through his staff, and he himself wasn't on top of his campaign the way he should have been. This is all my perception. I believe that had Richard Nixon been personally on top of his campaign that the Watergate problems would never have developed. I guess there was a third characteristic of Richard Nixon that really predestined his downfall, and maybe I have that same characteristic in my makeup. I enjoy preserving for history that which occurs throughout my life, as is evidenced by the volumes I've prepared on my life's history. However, I don't go to the extreme of having my office bugged or to having everything I say recorded. But had President Nixon not had the desire to preserve for history everything that was said, I don't believe he ever would have reached the crisis point that was 26 reached. I firmly believe that most of the same kinds of things which occurred in the oval office of the White House during the Nixon administration occurred in previous administrations as well, but we just don't have them recorded on tape. JS: Except perhaps with the obstruction of justice? RB: Well, but would anyone have been aware of the fact that there had been the obstruction of justice without the benefit of the tapes? JS: Sure; you're absolutely right. RB: I'm not trying to excuse [the Nixon administration] or previous administrations or maybe even subsequent [administrations]. JS: You are right; the documentation was there in a greater degree. RB: And recorded on some of those tapes is undoubtedly my voice. I don't have perfect recall, but I don't think I ever said anything that would have been of a great interest, except maybe some statements pertaining to my evaluation of people. I personally hate to see those kinds of statements preserved, particularly with the risk of having private statements quoted out of context. JS: Yes, it puts people in a kind of difficult position. Was political activity one of your goals? You have talked about governmental service. Have you been active politically? RB: I've never run for political office. JS: Do you have any aspirations that way? RB: There could be a time in my life when I could run for political office. I don't think that discussing that topic with me while I am serving as president of Weber State 27 College would be particularly helpful. But there could come a time that I would run for political office. JS: Your commitment, then, to government service was not in some way an attempt to ingratiate yourself with a political structure but an attempt to be involved with the government? RB: Yes, at the time I was appointed as secretary of HEW I recall an article in Time magazine discussing my appointment, and it was pointed out that my appointment was that of a businessman with a reputation as an expert in management and was not made because I was a Republican or a Democrat. JS: Not a political payoff. RB: That's right, because I had not been involved at all in the Nixon campaign, though I had been involved from time to time with campaigns of various political candidates on both the Republican and Democratic sides. JS: After you left the Nixon administration on where did you then go? RB: I'd like to say that while we were in Washington, D.C. we lived in the Bethesda area of Maryland. There wasn't much time for a lot of church activity and civic activity outside of the government assignment, though I did teach the gospel doctrine Sunday school class in the Chevy Chase Ward of the church. We left Bethesda, Maryland, and Washington in mid-November 1972 to return to California. We had planned to move into the lovely home that we had moved from. We had had it leased, but we had given our tenants an option to buy our home. As we indicated to our tenants our interest in returning to California, they exercised their option to buy. So we ended up buying another home which was 28 even a nicer and larger home than the one we had before. So things worked out all right in the end. JS: Was it in Westwood? RB: Yes, it was in Westwood. We moved back into the same general neighborhood. Professionally, I assumed the position of executive vice president and chairman of the executive committee of the Bergen Brunswig Corporation, the second largest distributor of pharmaceuticals in the country, a major supplier of hospital supplies and equipment, a company often involved in providing computer service to the health industry. JS: This was in 1972? RB: November of 1972. So from November of 1972 to July of 1978, I served as executive vice president and chairman of the executive committee of that company. During that time period we more than doubled sales. One of the main reasons I joined BBC was that it was in a loss position and it was thought that I could be of help. Happily, we turned it around to the point of being a very, very profitable company. Happily, also, I obtained options on many shares of the stock of that company, which was a good financial move. I'm now one of the major shareholders in that company. JS: So you still have a financial interest in the company? RB: Yes, I do, and I continue to serve on the board of directors of that company. During the period from 1972 to 1978, I again became very active in civic affairs in the Los Angeles area. I served on the board of directors of several corporations. I ended up being one of the shareholders of a firm by the name of Uni-Managers 29 International through which we managed the financial affairs of some major sport figures. I served on the board of the most successful radio stations in Los Angeles, and again became very active in the church. Shortly after my return to Los Angeles I was called to the presidency of the Los Angeles Stake, as a counselor to President John K. Carmack, and subsequently became the president of the Los Angeles Stake of the church. JS: What year was that? RB: 1977, a little more than a year before we moved to Ogden, Utah, to serve as president of Weber State College. Throughout my life I have been very active in the Boy Scouts of America, first at the local level. It was during the 1972 to 1973 period that I became very much involved at the national level of the Boy Scouts. I gravitated toward national leadership through the Cub Scouting program, and in 1977, in addition to serving on the National Executive Board of the Boy Scouts of America, I was appointed as Chairman of the National Cub Scout Committee. That makes me the national volunteer leader for Cub Scouting which has about two million Cub Scouts and a half million Cub Scout leaders. JS: So you continue in that responsibility right now? RB: Yes. In fact, last weekend I was at our biennial meeting of Boy Scouts in New Orleans and was appointed again to the National Executive Board and for another two-year term as head of the Cub Scouting program. You might be interested in a couple of pictures over here. I was appointed by the Scouting leaders to make the annual report to the President of the United States, and so of course you see in these pictures President Carter and me in the oval office as I 30 escorted a number of young Scouts along with our National Professional Leader, Jim Tarr, to meet the President. JS: That must have been a rich experience for those young people. RB: Oh, it was a great experience. JS: Well, let's turn our attention now to your decision to come to Weber State College and the circumstances that were involved in that. What were the factors that influenced your decision to come here? What did you know about Weber State College at that time? RB: Well, my first contact with Weber State College was in 1949 and 1950 as a high school student, at Jordan High School, when I was a debater. In those days they had a major annual high school debate tournament at Weber, and we still do. At that time Weber State College was still located at the lower campus. JS: Was that tournament called the Monson Invitational Tournament? RB: I don't think it was called the Monson Invitational Tournament then; at least I don't recognize that being the name of it. We thought of it in terms as being the Weber College Debate Tournament. I don't think the school was even named Weber State College at that time. That was my first contact with Weber College. Of course, during the years that I was in college at the University of Utah, I was well aware of Weber College, but even at that time it was still a junior college; it was yet to become a four-year college. JS: My second major contact with the college came in 1966 or 1967. I'd just begun my assignment at Hughes Tool Company. The dean of the business school here at the college was a Harvard classmate of mine, Quinn McKay. Quinn invited me 31 to fly from California to Utah to give an executive lecture at the college. Then while I was with HEW, I was called by several members of the Board of Regents and the Institutional Council who asked me, if I had a chance with my travels back and forth across the country, to stop by and visit the Weber campus. They wanted to get better acquainted with me because they were thinking of appointing a new president. I guess the decision had been made that President Miller was going to retire, and they were in need of a new president. So I stopped by and talked to the people there at that time. JS: Were you an applicant for the job? RB: I never did fill out an application as such. JS: But they were interested in talking to you? RB: Yes, there seemed to be considerable encouragement for me to formally apply, but I never did make that formal application though I did provide them with a background statement on myself. In the meantime, I was also working out employment arrangements to become executive vice president of Bergen Brunswig Corporation. Of course, President Joseph L. Bishop was appointed president of the college. I really had no contact with him during the years of his presidency. I don't even think I visited the college during those years. I gave many addresses during that time at Utah State, the University of Utah and Brigham Young. And I still do. But I don't recall ever having been invited to visit the Weber campus during the 1972 to1978 period. JS: So you were not very intimately connected with the school in any sense during that five- or six-year period?” 32 RB: No. Then in the spring of 1978, I started getting phone calls from many, many sources, encouraging me to consider becoming the candidate for this position. I was subsequently selected as the president of the college in June of 1978. JS: What was the major factor influencing you to become a candidate? RB: Well, you will recall in the list of goals and objectives I formulated when I was a senior in high school, the desire to someday serve as a college president. I summarized my reasons for serving as a college president fairly completely in a paper that I presented to the faculty shortly after I arrived at the college. Maybe I can just read that to you. JS: Okay. RB: “First, why would I leave private industry to become a college president? I would like to make it clear to you that I enjoy the business world. I am fascinated with the process of transforming ideas into useful, economically justifiable products and services. And I'm thrilled with the success of the free enterprise system. However, I'm also excited about the process and value of transferring skill, knowledge, understanding and wisdom from one generation to another, from teacher to student, and in providing an environment—conditions, facilities and equipment—that enables a student to develop intellectual discovery. These lifelong pedagogical interests, coupled with an intense respect for the minds, capabilities and vigor of young men and women, has led me at this stage of my career from the industrial world to the academic world, for these considerations far outweigh the resulting financial sacrifices.” 33 I might say parenthetically here that I had achieved the position financially that I could afford to be a college president. I'd reached the point in life where I could make decisions irrespective of the financial implications. “Second, a question that I've often been asked is why I would select Weber State College as the place where I would dedicate the next decade of my life in academic administrative service. That normally takes a bit longer to answer, but let me try to summarize the highlights of my rationale. Perhaps, the same rationale will strike a familiar chord with many of you, for these too may be your reasons for being associated with this institution. “First, Weber is an institution of higher education which concentrates its resources and efforts on quality undergraduate education. In many institutions of higher education which have large graduate programs, the interest of the better professors is often drawn away from the undergraduate classroom into the graduate program. The intense emphasis on research and publication also detracts from the professors' interest in and time for quality undergraduate instruction. And where a graduate program is emphasized the undergraduate student too often finds his teacher to be a graduate assistant and not the learned and experienced professor he thought he was going to be studying under. “Second, Weber is only beginning its climb toward achieving its ultimate potential. As I have often told my colleagues, I would much rather be involved in developing and building a young vibrant institution than to be presiding over one which has already reached its maturity. I'd rather build something than preside over something. 34 “Third, Weber is large enough to have the variety and range of programs which enables a student to obtain a broad based, quality educational and social experience. Yet, Weber is small enough to enable an undergraduate student to feel comfortable and not overwhelmed by the immensity of the campus and student body existent at larger institutions. A student at Weber can develop with ease a sense of belonging and a feeling of caring on the part of his professors for the student. “Fourth, Weber as a comprehensive college has a combination of programs found in few institutions of higher education in this country. Weber has on one campus programs in the liberal arts, sciences, professions, technology and a wide variety of productive skills. The real world is comprised of people with the same range of skills and interests. Thus, student life on the Weber State College campus reflects the real world far more accurately than does student life on campuses which have a more limited role. Thus Weber is better able to prepare a student to succeed in the real world. “Fifth, Weber is located in one of the most delightful, exciting communities in this nation. The people are extraordinarily friendly, the community consists of a healthy mix of cultures, traditions, backgrounds and interests. The college is not the single dominant force in the community as is the case in some of the socalled college towns, yet it is an important cultural and learning center for the varied interests in the community. And there are few communities in this nation that look upon their college with more pride and provide to it such loyal and generous support as does this community to Weber State College. 35 “Sixth, and finally, Weber has one of the most beautiful campuses in the entire country. I have visited hundreds of campuses across this nation, so I have some basis from which to compare. Its buildings, fountains, lawns and playing fields located in the foothills of the Wasatch Mountains provide an atmosphere especially conducive for learning and living. With the addition of two or three buildings, Weber will not only possess one of the most beautiful campuses but one of the most complete campuses in the country.” So, those are some of the basic reasons why I came here to Weber State College. I might say that even though my background has been largely business and government oriented, I haven't been completely isolated from the campuses of the country, particularly when I was assistant secretary of HEW. The E part of HEW is a very important aspect of that department, and I found my way to the campuses of many colleges and universities during that period. Also, throughout the seventies I served on the boards of four major universities. JS: Which ones were they? RB: For ten years I have served as a member of the National Advisory Council at the University of Utah and as chairman of that Advisory Council for several years. I served on the National Advisory Council to the College of Business at Brigham Young University during the 1970s. I served on the Dean's Advisory Board at the UCLA business school during that same period. I also served on the advisory board to Harvard University during that same period in the program of health systems management. So throughout the 1970s I was very, very close to those four major universities. 36 JS: So you didn't feel like you were coming totally into a new ball game. RB: No, I had a very good understanding, I believe, of the governance of institutions of higher education. As far as the Ogden community is concerned, it wasn't all that foreign to me, either, for as I have often told the people here in this community. I grew up in south Salt Lake Valley, forty miles south of Ogden, and my wife, Mitzi, grew up in Tremonton, forty miles north of Ogden so on the average we're from Ogden, both of us.