Oral History Program Forrest Crawford Interviewed by John R. Sillito 1 May 1979 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Forrest Crawford Interviewed by John R. Sillito University Archivist 1 May 1979 Copyright © 2012 by Weber State University, Stewart Library iii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description The Weber State College Oral History Program was created in the early 1970s to “record and document, through personal reminiscences, the history, growth and development of Weber State College.” Through interviews with administrators, faculty and students, the program’s goal was to expand the documentary holdings on Weber State College and its predecessor entities. From 1970 to 1976, the program conducted some fifteen interviews, under the direction of, and generally conducted by Harold C. Bateman, an emeritus professor of history. In 1979, under the direction of archivist John Sillito, the program was reestablished and six interviews were conducted between 1979 and 1983. Additional interviews were conducted by members of the Weber State community. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Crawford, Forrest, an oral history by John R. Sillito, 1 May 1979, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. Forrest Crawford 1 Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Forrest Crawford who came to Weber State College in 1977. The interview was conducted on May 1, 1979 by John R. Sillito in order to gather Mr. Crawford’s thoughts about his position as Counselor to the black students and black student organizations. JS: I think the place to begin is for you to tell us a little bit about yourself—your background, where you received your education, where you're from, that sort of thing. FC: To start out, my home is originally Tulsa, Oklahoma. I've been in Utah since 1972. I was recruited here as an athlete for the football program by Coach Dick Gwinn back in 1972. I've been here in Utah since then. I finished my associate degree at Northeastern A. and M. Junior College in Miami, Oklahoma. I finished my Bachelor's Degree here at Weber State in sociology with a social work emphasis. JS: What year was that? FC: In 1975. Then I finished my Master's Degree at the Graduate School of Social Work at the University of Utah in 1977. So this is my second academic year here. JS: So you've been at Weber State since 1977? FC: Right. JS: As an employee? FC: Right. JS: When you were first hired here, were you hired as a counselor. Were you given your responsibilities then for black students? 2 FC: My job title is Weber State College Counselor. I am an advisor primarily by virtue of inheritance. In other words, I have inherited the advisory to black students here on campus because in the past, black instructors or black counselors and advisors historically have come out of the Director of Ethnic Studies Department. As a part of that responsibility, they were to advise the Black, Chicano, Native American student populations here on campus. So I am assigned as an advisor to the black students and the black student organizations here. But at the same time, I do advise students other than black as well as counsel them. JS: I see. Now does the Department of Ethnic Studies still exist on campus? FC: It still exists and it's under the direction of Dr. Daily Oliver. JS: Now that's the organization that oversees the activities of various ethnic students? FC: Right. The specific emphasis of the Ethnic Studies Department is to monitor and facilitate social, financial, and educational activities of various minority groups on campus including women. JS: Including women? FC: Right. JS: How big of a staff do they have? Do you know? FC: Well, the staff primarily consists of the director, but at certain intervals, Dr. Oliver has special advisors that assist him in assessing certain needs and determining the direction of ethnic studies. JS: So there hasn't been a specific black studies program except as part of ethnic studies. Is that right? 3 FC: Yes. The Department of Ethnic Studies is under the Division of Student Affairs. It is not a mutually exclusive department in itself. JS: What do they do with that department in terms of the black studies program? FC: Primarily, Dr. Oliver's responsibility is pretty much focused on minority curriculum development. He's in the process now of trying to focus on multi-culture education for Weber State College. Given the philosophy of Weber State College, having the need to enhance student educational and intellectual growth here on the campus, he feels that the focus of multi-cultural education would be the most practical application to individual and groups of students' intellectual growth. JS: I see. It seems to me to be part of the tendency where black studies or other kinds of ethnic studies are made a part of the general curriculum as opposed to a separate kind of program. Is that true? FC: Right. There tends to be more of an integrated approach to black studies existing here on campus. But often times, on colleges and universities that have predominantly white populations, it tends to take on kind of a separate but equal air. JS: A separate program? FC: Right. JS: Why don't you tell us a little bit about the organization of Black Scholars United and what you know of its history? I'm interested in why it's known as Black Scholars United. Traditionally, the groups that I've been familiar with were the Black Student Union. Why the difference in terminology? 4 FC: The Black Scholars United organization was started here at Weber State College officially in 1969 as part of some of the social and cultural unrest that was part of that era. At the time they started, the name was Black Student Union. I think they were the Black Student Unionfor approximately three to four years. Since then, as different things began to change on college campuses in terms of black students trying to assess needs, trying to focus on academics rather than socially and culturally getting together, they felt like there needed to be a name change. Black Scholars United would provide some view that this is not only a social organization; this is also an academic achievement organization. JS: So that's the basis for the change of name. Is that fairly true elsewhere as well? Has that been a trend in other places? FC: I've been on University of Utah's campus. While I was attending school there, I was the Black Student President during my graduate studies and they are under the name of Black Student Union. JS: Still? FC: Still, right. You know one of the things that's really interesting about the black student organizations here in Utah is that even though they may be different in name, they have characteristically the same type of goals, philosophies, and the same type of activities that are provided for those groups. I was the Black Scholars United president here at Weber. Also, I've had quite a bit of experience in black student organizational development. Utah State University has pretty much the same type of thing. 5 JS: Is there much cooperation between the different Black Student Unions at Utah State, the University of Utah, and Weber? Do you have joint projects and that sort of thing? FC: One of the long range goals of Black Scholars United here at Weber is to begin to initiate some cooperative efforts with black students on other campuses. To a small degree, those types of things have been done. For example, I think we've had three meetings with the University of Utah. We have not had any formal meetings but we have had formal contact with Utah State. So as a long range goal, we're hoping that we'll be able to coordinate some inter-organizational type of activities. JS: I see. You mentioned that the organization was started in 1969. Do you know anything about who started it? Can you tell me some of the names of the leaders in the beginning days of the movement? FC: I cannot recall any specific names. I do know that the Black Student Organization was started by a small group of black students that were part of Weber State College during 1969. Their goal at that time was to try and address some specific needs for black students who were attending Weber State College then. Throughout that process the organization, being as young as it was, experienced a lot of ups and downs—inconsistencies. The membership was up and then it was down. As a result of that, a lot of things have happened with the black student organization. A lot of people at that time, between 1969 and 1973, 1974, visualized or perceived the Black Scholars United as a negative organization—an organization to support the black power movement, or to support overthrowing a 6 specific agency or policy that would be inherently racist as part of Weber State College. I think that one of the things that they are seeing now is the Black Scholars United is truly a very strong and viable organization given the inconsistencies that the founders experienced as a group. JS: So like most student organizations, some years it was stronger than others, depending on the leadership available and the membership or whoever? FC: Right. I would say that fraternities, sororities, even take the Institute Group, all experienced the same type of inconsistencies. JS: Ups and downs? FC: Right. JS: You've mentioned that some people perceived the Black Student Unionat that time was part of the black power movement. Was there some debate within the black student organizations over the question of goals? What you've explained to me seems to be a fairly typical integrationist approach in terms of what the black studies program is doing as a part of ethnic studies. Were there some people who would have prefered a more militant stance on the part of the black student organization? FC: Yes. It's really interesting how our black population is divided. I think that there is a small group of people—I guess you could call them nationalists—that really feel like the separate but equal approach is the only way; kind of the Marcus Garvey theory and philosophy that we need our own resources and this type of thing. But at the same time, I think that there is even a larger group of black students and administrators that are beginning to feel that we are part of the system regardless 7 of how sexist or racist it might be. We are an integral part of that. We are a part of the historical development of Weber State College. People are really beginning to look at this and say that the only way that we can ever really achieve the goal that is set out to be achieved is through an integrated effort. JS: I see. FC: I think this is really important because we are finding it is very difficult to obtain a goal through a separatist approach. JS: You've got to be a part of the system to have some input. FC: Right. JS: What about different opinions on the part of the administration? You allude to some fear at the time the Black Student Unionwas organized about where it was going. Has there been a change of attitude on the part of the administration between the time that President Miller was President, and President Bishop and President Brady? Have those men had different attitudes to the needs of the black students? FC: I guess my feeling on that is that Weber State is an institution that has experienced a lot of things with minority students who are on this campus. I feel like the perception of Weber State in the early days was pretty much indicative of our social system, and of how Blacks, Chicanos, Indians and other ethnic minority groups were perceived at that time. If I look at it in a contemporary sense, I think that Weber State has come a long way in terms of how they have perceived the black population here and how they are meeting black student needs. This is not to say that they do not have a long way to go because they 8 really do. I think that there are some needs that have not been met for black students on this campus. JS: What are some of those, do you think? FC: I think that some of those needs basically evolve around institutional support. I think another thing is that instructors need to be more aware of cultural background and differences as it relates to their instruction. Often times, you get a student in a classroom situation where they are dealing with the standard theoretical formats in terms of trying to convey a certain concept and that black student's personal background may be so much different from what the teacher is attempting to convey. It may be the very same concept. Often times in a classroom situation, instructors may not know or may not understand how black people communicate with each other. The black dialect, something as simple as that can be very misunderstood in a classroom situation. As a result of that, the black student, many times being the only black in a classroom situation, experiences a great deal of anger and frustration and as a result, gets discouraged and decides to withdraw or quit school completely. JS: Do you see this as a big problem at the school with some of the black students you counsel? FC: You know, I think there are so many problems that affect dropout rates or the rate of how we retain black students here at the school. I think that primarily, the largest problem comes through black students not being aware of or not understanding certain types of social and standardized concepts that are conveyed in a classroom situation. 9 JS: So a lot of your responsibility is to help students adjust to that kind of thing and understand it. FC: Help students as well as making instructors and administrators aware of cultural differences and barriers. JS: Do you do that in a formal sense in terms of instruction to the instructors and administration? FC: I've done it in several different ways since I've been here, for example through substitute teaching. I've done it through formal presentations, as well as informal discussions with instructors and administrators. One of the things that I have developed for this quarter is a pilot project where students will be able to obtain college credit for a course called black student leadership. As an effort to bridge the gap that exists between college instructors, administrators and black students, these students, as part of their responsibility, must try and attempt to obtain a certain amount of information about black people in the historical sense as well as develop workshops in coordination with career services, financial aids, these type of things, that will help bridge the gap between students' perception and the instructor and administrative perception. JS: It's an attempt to kind of bring people together and open communication to each other on this kind of thing. FC: Right. JS: What is the black population at Weber State? Has it varied much in the 6 or 8 years that you've been here? 10 FC: Just off the top of my head, since 1969, and it could probably go back further than that, and I think that Dr. Oliver in the Ethnic Studies Department would have more statistical information on that, Weber State has emerged from a population of roughly 75 to 80 black students registered at this campus up to about 195 to 200 black students now. JS: So it's more than doubled in the last ten years? FC: Right. It's doubled. JS: What about the makeup of Black Scholars United and the makeup of black students on campus? How many black students here are from the Ogden area and how many others are from outside of the state? What about black students from foreign countries? How are the relationships between black Americans and foreign blacks? FC: That's a really good question. First of all, one of the things that I'm in the process of attempting to find out is how the black American students' subculture is broken down into a subculture within itself as part of this institution. I find that there is a subculture of athletes here. I find that there is a subculture of resident, nonresident, black male, black female, handicapped, so many different type of breakdowns on the black student population. I am specifically trying to do that because I am trying to determine what variables effect to a certain degree the number of students that stay here. The black American population here is so transient. We have Hill Air Force Base people that come in every quarter and might decide to go on a leave of absence. We have black people in the community that take classes on a part-time basis that are really not considered 11 full-time equivalents here. So many things affect the retention rate of black students on campus. I'm finding our black population is a subculture within itself; but at the same time, seeking the same goals and objectives and trying to achieve in higher education. As to the second question, the relationship between the black American and the African student, it's interesting that the Black American perception of African students is that of foreign because we consider ourselves direct descendants of them. At the same time, foreign students' needs are somewhat different from the black American student needs here. I think that generally speaking they are the same. One of the things that's really unique about how the foreign students resolve problems and how the black Americans resolve problems, is that black Americans have a very unique conceptualization as to how our American system works. They look at it in terms of how we've been treated before and how we are treated now, and they try and attempt to resolve the problems this way. So they have a very keen social awareness of their existance here in America. African students on the other hand really don't have the true feeling or the true concept of how black Americans, their black brothers and sisters, have been treated here in America. That's not to say that they cannot obtain that. I'm saying that they're coming from a culture in which they are not faced with racist type of slurs, or overtones or things like that, that black Americans have to deal with continually, on an everyday basis. And so they tend to problem solve through a kind of traditional approach where black Americans tend to problem solve through a more non-traditional approach given the situation that they're in. 12 JS: Now both groups seem to work fairly well together in Black Student Unionthough. Is that true? FC: That's true. JS: There must be a conscious attempt to involve both groups in the organization. FC: That is true. One of the things that the Black American students are really trying to do is to continue to reinforce the fact that even though they are legally, administratively recognized as foreign students, these are our black brothers and sisters and we need to bridge that gap between our needs and desires as a black population. JS: Regardless of nationality and place of birth. FC: Right. JS: You've been here both as a student and as part of the administration as well. How have your perceptions differed? In other words, do you perceive the college differently than when you were here as a student? Have you seen things a little bit more through their eyes now that you're here as a part of the system more or less? FC: You know, one of the things that is unique about my being here, and I'm not trying to boast or anything, is that when I was on the student's side of the fence, so to speak, I really felt that there were some needs that should be addressed for black students on this campus. I attempted to deal with that by way of being involved with the Black Scholars United as the president during the time I was a student here. Then as an administrator, on the other side of the fence, so to speak, now I'm able to put my ideals and my concepts into work on a full-time 13 basis. So I think it's a very unique position to be in and I really feel like this is one of the things that has really been missing with other black counselors and administrators that have come on this campus. They have primarily been outside people coming in, so it takes them two, three and four years to kind of assess what's really coming down with the system. The advantage that I have, I have been part of the system. I am a biproduct of Weber State's higher education system. So I feel that trying to bridge the gap between some of the things I have perceived the need to be done as a student and some of the things I have perceived the need to be done as an administrator, I can do that very practically now. JS: Kind of brings them both together? FC: Right. JS: You mentioned that you came to Weber State initially on an athletic scholarship. A number of black students come in the same way, on athletic scholarships. You mentioned there's some cleavage in the organization itself between athletes and non-athletes. How does that affect the black population here? FC: One of the interesting things about the average Utah black male is that he came to this area as a result of athletics. I think that because of that, a certain stereotypical image is being perpetuated, and perceived, by students other than black about how we got here. I'm not sure if the coaches are really aware of the fact, because it's almost kind of like during the slave era where they brought in slaves to achieve certain tasks, in this context football. Then after they have achieved that task, they have the responsibility to move on to other things, 14 whether they're bigger and better or not is another issue. You know, after you finish up four years of eligibility, then you have to do some pretty hard thinking about what direction you want to take. I think that as far as how the black community perceives athletes coming in, my feeling is that the black community is very proud of the black athlete that comes in here because the black athlete that comes here is a very good image for the black person because it provides publicity for them as black individuals and for us as a black population. We are representing Ogden's black community when we win a championship or if we win a big game, upset somebody. So I think that the black community perceives the black athlete very well but at the same time, I think there's a certain degree of resentment toward the black athletes because they primarily come in here to play football with the intent of trying to finish up an education. As a result of that, they are very highly motivated. They have to be highly motivated. They have to maintain above a 2.0 average so they can maintain the eligibility to play football. I think that hostility comes in, or resentment—I won't say hostility, but the resentment comes in say for example with the black male who is indigenous to this area who is not as motivated as the out of state or the non-resident athlete. Very typically, you can find a situation where the black male has been going to this school for four, five or six years and is still a sophomore or a junior or something like that. Then you find a junior college transfer athlete or an incoming freshman athlete who will shoot right through the system, using athletics as a mechanism to achieve that. That is perceived by the black male in a negative sense. At the same time, I don't even think it's on a scale that really can be 15 measured however I think it's something that they might think about. They say, "My goodness, I've been here in Utah for 13 years, I've been going to school for 5 years, and here's this guy who just came in 2 years ago and now he's getting ready to graduate." I think that human nature suggests that there's a certain degree of resentment. JS: On the one hand there's a lot of identification on the part of the local black community with black athletes at the college and yet, at the same time there is some possibility for some resentment over this same issue. FC: Right. JS: What about the relationships just in general between Black Student Union, and you particularly, and the downtown or the local black leadership. Do you have much contact with them? Are they involved in Black Scholars United? FC: Some of the students that are part of Black Scholars United are also Part of the Black community. My role as a Black student advisor primarily centers around a facilitator of any and all social and educational events that they would like to convey in a black heritage context. For example, this past February we had National Black History Month. My role primarily was to facilitate all the activities that these students wanted to do for Weber State College. To say, "Weber State College, here we are as a formal black student organization providing you some awareness of our cultural heritage." My role not only with the black student organization, but also with the community, is more the facilitator of the black student needs on campus. 16 JS: Do you ever feel uncomfortable about being a part of the administration? Do you ever feel some conflict between what the administration wants you to do and what the Black Scholars United want you to do? FC: Yes. One of the things that is really characteristic about a black administrator on all white campuses is that you can very easily get bogged down into other assignments different from what you really want to do. It's been somewhat of a problem, but I think that I've been able to handle it. I think that I've been able to constructively facilitate the work that I have here as a counselor because I am a counselor but I just happen to be black. As far as I'm concerned, I see all students. One of the things that happens is that I can very easily get bogged down into doing administrative details and not meet the needs of the black students. Other times there have been situations where black students have demanded my time and my effort and all this type of thing and my paperwork has just floated off into the sky blue. As a result of that there's been some degree of frustration. The community has a certain expectation. They say "You're a black administrator on this campus. What's happening to our students? They're flunking out, they're in trouble, you know you need to do something; you're on campus." I think that a lot of times, the community people as well as the black students sometimes don't realize the overbearing situation that I can very easily get myself into. I have to let the black community know that I am here as a resource to assist them in any way. I have to let the black student know that I'm his advisor to assist him in any type of way. I have to let the administration know 17 that I am doing my job. I am doing the job that you assigned me to do as a counselor. So that can get to be a very vicious cycle sometimes. JS: One of the unique particular characteristics of Utah, of course, is the dominance of the Mormon Church. Until a year ago now, there was an official policy in the Mormon Church regarding holding of the priesthood by black males. What role has that played traditionally in terms of the attitudes of black toward non-blacks at the college and also how much do you see that as a part of the racism that you find in this community? Is it a really major factor or are there other factors that motivate that? Or is it hard to tell? FC: Generally speaking, I think that many people in the black community perceive the LDS church's concept of black culture as very negative so they perceive the Church as basically an institution of racism. Since the policy or the revelation that blacks are able to hold the priesthood in the Church, I have not seen any visible effects except that shortly afterwards, they inducted a black priest into the Church. Other than that, I have not really seen any measurable effects on the black population. You know, I think the one change that came out of that situation was the black Mormons who were a part of the church, were relieved from a lot of pressure. They were not only part of a racist institution but they were also being sharply criticized by their own black brothers and sisters. I think that the effect of this could be nothing more than positive particularly on behalf of the already existing black Mormons. JS: How many blacks that have been involved in Black Student Union have been Mormons? Any of them? 18 FC: Maybe two. I can remember one for sure but there might have been another, but a very low percentage. JS: As you seemed to indicate that that may have been a factor with those black people in that they were sort of between a rock and a hard spot. FC: That's true. JS: They were kind of not accepted in either camp. FC: That's true. JS: So perhaps the policy has had some effect that way but in terms of the perception of the black community or the attitudes of many people in the area, there doesn't seem to have been a measurable change as a result of that policy change on the part of the Mormon Church. FC: I wouldn't know exactly how the community would perceive that but as far as my perception of it, I don't see any measurable change as related to that policy. JS: Okay, Forrest, let's talk a little bit more about the historical development of black students at Weber State College and particularly the development of the Black Scholars United. We talked about the fact that it was organized in 1969, that it had some ups and downs. You've been involved with it since about 1972 off and on at least. What has been the development of the organization since then and what have been some of your current goals as an organization? FC: I think that one of the things that I failed to mention before is that even though the Black Scholars United had emerged as a formal organization in 1969, there were black students that were a part of Weber State College in earlier days. For 19 example, in 1936, there were 3 or 4 black students on this campus. One of the black students was a football player. JS: Do you know his name? FC: I think his name is Raymond Freeman, Ray Freeman. I know for a fact that one of the black students that attended Weber in 1936 is a student at this present moment on the campus. JS: Do you know his name? FC: His name is Mr. Scott Stuart—an excellent person. I talked with him about what had occurred during that time. He indicated that he did attend Weber State for a while and then World War II or the Korean War or something like that came up and so he went on military duty and was not able to return to Weber State until just recently. So I think that spending some time with him really gave me a fairly good conceptualization of what was happening with black students then. He indicated to me that there were black students on this campus then but they were relatively invisible, again, highly indicative of the time and era. JS: Right. FC: So, in terms of the black students and the Black Scholars United on this campus, Black Student Union has a very unique history, and I don't think that people have really been able to address that. I don't think that the average black student on this campus realizes that they have been formally recognized on this campus since 1969. That's a decade; this is 1979. To my knowledge I don't think that there have been any formal organizations that existed on Weber State College campus that long. Maybe a fraternity or sorority may have but I really don't think 20 that any other student organization has existed for that long and I think that in itself warrants some type of recognition. I really visualize the black students—the Black Scholars United as kind of the unsung hero of the Weber State College campus. As I look at it today, Weber State Black Scholars United is more of a cultural awareness agent for Weber State now. They provide, throughout the year, different types of activities such as seminars and workshops that involve their sharing the cultural experiences. In the 1960s, at least in 1969 through 1973 or 1974, the emphasis truly was kind of a nationalist approach, kind of a black power type; we need to be recognized. We need these changes. It was a conscious, overt effort to change the existing environment. I'm beginning to see the Black Scholars United more as a provider of cultural awareness now—more so than we need this change and we need to turn over some desks to make ourselves known. The black student then and the black student now are completely different. The black students in the 1960s exhibited a lot more unity during that time, a group of people always raising consciousness for an individual or a group of people that might be, as they have perceived them, suppressing them. I think now that black students are executing themselves on a more individualized approach now. I think the concept of unity is not necessarily obsolete within the black community, but at the same time, I think that the integrated theory or methodology and suggestion that students are infiltrating into so many different avenues, so many different opportunities, so many different ways, until it looks like there is no unity there. But the black unity now is just as viable as it was in 21 the 1960s because out of the 1960s, we realized that we need somebody in the social political and economic levels of our environment. We need people in these areas because the black population is not that large. It seems that we pretty much stand for ourselves but that is not true because that is a long range conscious effort in trying to reinforce the unity that we were so strongly professing for in the 1950s and the 1960s. JS: So there've been some changes within the black students themselves, partially based on the fact that some of the things that were demanded ten years ago have been achieved, and now there's less need to make those militant kinds of demands and more need to build upon the things that have been achieved. FC: I think it's important to note that some of the needs have not been met. I think it's a different way. Students want to take more of a cooperative, integrated approach trying to say this is what we need, rather than in the early 1960s when they just kicked the door down and said this is what the hell we need, you gonna give it to us? JS: Declare war. FC: Yes. Right. For example, students negotiate a budget with student government for each academic year. They don't go in with the notion that they're going to kick over everything in student government, that the fear of God is in them and they're going to give them all this money and so they can do what needs to be done. Students are becoming more standardized and traditional in terms of their needs and desires as students representing Weber State College. The thing I really want to emphasize is, even though the Black Scholars United has pretty much 22 served as a cultural awareness agency for the campus, awareness to me, does not necessarily change behavior. I can be aware of everything, but if I don't want to move, I will not move. A lot of times, I talk with so many black students that say "You know we're getting tired of making people aware. All we're doing is aware, aware, aware. When the hell are they going to change?" I think that's a very interesting and valid point that even though we identify ourselves as a cultural exchange and awareness agent for Weber State, you know I think some more types of things need to be done to measure any type of impact. JS: What specifically needs to be done? FC: Well, I think that for example when the black students convey their cultural heritage on the awareness level, then I think that that awareness should be recognized through policies and procedures of Weber State College: through instruction, through integrating minority content in curriculum, those type of things, those measurable changes. JS: So it's not just enough to take one week out of the month of February to have displays and that sort of thing. They need to take that awareness and actually put it in policies. FC: Right. JS: What do you think the attitudes of the current administration toward black students are? Is it different than it was when you came? FC: I think that the administration's perception of the black students here on campus is—I wouldn't identify it as an overt racist identification. I think that Weber State as an institution like so many other majority white institutions has some inherently 23 racist policies, even to the extent of inherently racist instructors. And, as a result of that, black student needs are not being met. However, I would say that the overall general perception of Weber State as an institution is that they are generally cooperative to black students. I do have some cases occasionally come up where instructors may make a racist statement or some type of overtone or other small incidents like this that cannot be negotiated and worked out on a positive basis. I think that for the most part, Weber State as an institution perceives black students in a very good light. JS: I get the feeling that there's not been much pressure or much emphasis on the part of the administration to recruit black students other than athletics. FC: Yes. That's true. JS: Or to recruit black faculty. FC: Right. That's the thing that I alluded to before, that the black population here can fall into a very stereotypical image, the typical black male is an athlete. And so I think that the institution has not consciously recruited black students. In fact Black Scholars United have assessed this and determined that they have to initiate their own recruitment program. I think generally speaking, when they have student orientation, a very small percentage of minority students are part of that orientation. One of my own personal goals is to develop the non-traditional recruitment process for Weber State as an institution. JS: To raise the level of blacks attending here. FC: Right. JS: The kinds of people that come here for the kinds of reasons. 24 FC: Right. JS: Do you try to go out into the local schools and talk with black high school students and graduates? FC: Right. We do this. My primary focus has been the black students in the Weber County school districts. It seems that the University of Utah in Salt Lake has a pretty good grasp on the students that come out of that area. But my specific focus is on students in the Weber County School District and we try and recruit them as Weber State products. JS: What about black faculty members? Has there been an effort to recruit more blacks? FC: Yes, that's interesting within itself. Dr. Oliver is the only black PhD person on our campus. We have one assistant professor in Social Work. JS: Who is that? FC: His name is Mr. Don Carpenter. He's Assistant Professor Social Work. The other black administrators on campus are classified now as professional staff. JS: That's your classification? FC: Right. We have very low academic rank on campus here. JS: We've talked about how the administration perceives black students, black needs and things. What about black students? Do you think that they feel very much a part of the social life overall of the school? FC: That's a good question. You know, I can make some assumptions and say that black students, the average black student, experiences a certain degree of social and educational isolation by virtue of their background. I can make an 25 assumption and say that, but one of the things that I am attempting to do now is to develop a black needs assessment. Through this instrument what I am trying to do is to determine the level of isolation that exists on this campus or even if students do experience that degree of isolation. What I'm hoping I can do through that black needs assessment is to submit the results to various administrative people on the campus and see if any type of changes can be made. One of the things that I'm initiating on my own is specific human relations projects with black students where I take them on a weekend marathon retreat so to speak, and they talk about the problems of isolation and the problems of racism and sexism that's been employed by individuals or groups of people that are on this campus. That type of project is an attempt to try and bridge the gap, try and provide some type of continuity within the black student population. The other thing that I really want to focus on is that black students oftentimes would say that they experience a certain degree of isolation because of the environmental situation they are in. It almost has an air of the black students saying, "We are not responsible for how we feel, what we are, and who we are and why we are and if I flunk, it's the professor's fault for letting me fail." One of the things that I'm trying to focus on now is having these students recognize that they do have some type of responsibility for their direction. They cannot necessarily blame an institution. Institutions are not racist. Individuals who support institutions can be racist. Just as a white instructor can be racist to a black student, a black student can also be racist to a white instructor. So I'm not trying to convey that the black student population here is being lily black 26 students. I think that students not only experience a great deal of isolation as part of this institution but also a great deal of isolation within themselves. My responsibility as a counselor is to help them to identify the strong points within their own selves as I would do anybody experiencing these types of things and so identify strong points and provide some kind of direction and solidity in their own personal lives. To me, there is external unity and there's internal unity. One of the things that I'm working on now, on a small scale, is black student internal unity. JS: You've mentioned sexism and racism. What about black female students? Do they perceive some sexism toward them? Do they think like some of the things Black Student Union’s talking about are pretty male oriented and maybe there's not enough consciousness raising in terms of females? FC: My perception is I don't think that the black female really focuses that much upon sexism. I think that their primary focus is on equality, unity, those types of concepts. There are very few black females that I know that are "gung ho" part of the women's movement. Black females have always felt like they have been liberated and don't feel like that needs to be addressed on any large scale. JS: So they see that more of a human rights movement as opposed to male and female. FC: Right. And I think that black females are beginning to realize just as black males are beginning to realize that liberation comes about through interpersonal unity. Black Student Union’s motto is, "Brothers and Sisters Together.” I think they really strive to provide some type of validity to that statement. 27 JS: What do you see as the future for Black Student Union and the future in the next year or two? What areas do you intend to move into other than the ones you've mentioned? FC: That's really a good question. I think that as I see Black Student Union as an organization, in terms of some of the things that need to be happening, with those students, I see students spending less effort in trying to combat social inequality on this campus and really becoming more career oriented. One of the things that is really interesting about students here is that a great percentage of the black students are into the behavioral sciences. That is really interesting as compared to say East Coast blacks who are into the area of technology. I think that one reason that black students are really into the behavioral sciences here— and I'm just making a hypothetical assumption—is that I think that their need to be involved in behavioral sciences has a lot to do with their need to understand their present existence, their environmental situation. Then if they can understand that, then they will know how to survive or how to deal with their existence. As compared to say Washington, D.C., you don't find very many people in behavioral science. They have a very strong technology orientation. They have enough black people to deal with the social racial, political inequalities; they have enough people that are consciousness raisers for the black community. JS: So they think more in terms of jobs? FC: Yes, they think more about going into the technological fields and dealing with how they can create and put their black talents into the black community. Here, it 28 seems like everybody's preoccupied with, "How in the hell am I going to get out of this situation?" Survival, patchworking, putting out brush fires, that kind of a concept. That may or may not be true. That's my assumption and one thing that I want to try and do is to somehow determine how and why black students tend to go into behavioral science. But as far as the long range goals, I would really like to see black students become a much more active group of students on Weber State campus as an organization. I would like to see black students really become involved in policy making procedures. I would like to see more black professors on the Weber State College campus. This whole area in Utah is so untouched with so many different types of things. The University of Utah has more black professors than Weber State does, but proportionately it's the same percentage, so I'd like to see some of those types of things. I'd like to see black students become more involved with the black community and different types of projects, fund raising, research and development, those types of things. I would like to see black students become more nationally recognized, put Ogden, Utah and Weber State College on the map, and have that recognized as a viable, healthy institution for black students to attend even though it may be predominantly white. JS: Certainly that would help in improving both the faculty and students' perceptions. Well, I appreciate sitting down with you and discussing some of these things. If there's anything else that you'd like to add that we haven't covered, please feel free to do it but I think we've had a productive discussion, some of the history and goals. 29 FC: I've personally enjoyed this interview. If I was to really put myself and things that I've said in a nutshell, I'd have to put it in the context of a phrase in the Bible that says, "Faith without works is dead." JS: I think I've heard that before! On that note, we'll close. Thank you.