Oral History Program Dr. Bart Wolthius Interviewed by Joan Hubbard, Jean Anne Waterstradt & Dian Wismer 30 August 1995 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Dr. Bart Wolthius Interviewed by Joan Hubbard, Jean Anne Waterstradt, & Dian Wismer 30 August 1995 Copyright © 2024 by Weber State University, Stewart Library Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in Special Collections. The Stewart Library also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description The Weber and Davis County Community Oral History Collection includes interviews conducted by Weber State University faculty, staff and students, and other members of the community. The interviews cover various topics including city government, diversity, personal everyday life experiences and other recollections regarding the history of the Weber and Davis County areas. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management Special Collections All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Dr. Wolthius, Bart, an oral history by Joan Hubbard, Jean Anne Waterstradt, and Dian Wismer, 30 August 1995, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, Special Collections and University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Abstract: This is an oral history interview with Dr. Bart Wolthius. It was conducted on August 30, 1995 in the Special Collections Department by Joan Hubbard, Dian Wismer, and Jean Anne Waterstradt. In this interview Dr. Wolthius discusses his life growing up in Ogden, his time in the United States Army during World War II and his medical and political career in Weber County. I: We were told you were born in the Netherlands and raised on a boat. BW: Yes, that is correct. I: How did that happen? Were your family boating people? BW: My father was a ship's captain. It goes back to the time he was a young teenager. He worked for the Holland-American lines out of Rotterdam, and came to this country. In fact, he had been to this country three different times on the ship in which he worked. This whetted his appetite. He wanted to own a ship of his own. In those days, sailing ships were about the only thing out with the wide ocean steamers. The North Sea trade and Baltic areas had schooners, maybe two or three massive schooners. They would carry cargo. In those days, they didn't have trucks because roads weren't there. So, they had it on ship. We stayed on board the ship, and you could understand the problems of education involved. There were, altogether, nine children. When my brothers and sisters became old enough, there would be two at a time that would stay with my grandmother in Groningen, which is a city in northern Holland. Meanwhile, father would teach us on board the ship. We would go from port to port. I would go with 1 him. I was ten when we came here. He would ask me about mathematics. He would give me story problems and things such as that. We came over here in 1928. The reason they came is because my parents joined the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. In those days, the missionaries said we should go to Zion. There is a song saying, "Come to Zion, Come to Zion." So, my mother and father said all right, what we had better do is go to Salt Lake and Ogden. So, that is how we happened to come here. I: Now, did this mean a change in occupations? BW: Oh yes. He was a regular "sea dog." He had knowledge of carpentry, painting, mechanics, and things like that. He had to maintain his own ship. As far as traveling on a ship, he knew hauling cargo. He became a painter for a period of time. That's why we settled here. There was a man, by the name of Joseph Weston, who was politically involved in this community many years, even before your time, and he sponsored us. I thank my lucky stars that he was willing to sponsor 11 people. We didn't come over like they do nowadays. They just say we will come in illegally and take our chances. You were given a priority, or number, and had to wait four years in order to qualify to come into the United States from the Netherlands. Each nation has a quota, as you know. Especially in those days, they were strictly adhered to. So that is why we came. When the time came for us to leave, which was in October, father and mother had already set up an agreement with this gentleman who had been on a 2 mission there. He said he would sponsor us. That was at the beginning of the Depression. Can you imagine anybody in his right mind sponsoring a family of eleven to come here, not knowing what the future holds? I: Did you and your family speak English before you came? BW: The only English I knew was a song the missionaries taught us, "Old Black Joe." It is nice sung out loud. That was the only song I knew. This is way off the subject, but the very first English word I used that I learned was in "Old Black Joe." We're not going to say it. My brother, who was 14 years older than I am, spoke fairly good English because he studied. He had an English-Dutch dictionary. He'd always speak English to the missionaries. So, he became quite proficient in the language. Then I had a sister who worked in Amsterdam. She learned English very well, but the rest of us... My father knew a little from being on American lines, but that is the kind of language you couldn't use in society. I: I don't detect any kind of accent or dialect as you are speaking. Often times when one doesn't learn a language until later, there is an accent. BW: My sister who was two years older, she is now deceased, but she had a little dialect there. My older brothers and sisters, yes. The younger ones, no. I seem to be the cut-off point. One of the old, old farmers, Beau dePreece, down in the Marriott area, was on a mission and he was very kind to our family. When we came over he said now he had a grown family. He said when we came here we had a house already for us supposedly. The plumbing was not adequate. They were repairing the plumbing 3 and they had an outhouse. That was in Ogden City in the '20s. Well, it would take a while to fix the plumbing, so we had to break up. My brother and I stayed with Beau dePreece, who lived west of the IRS center now. They were hauling beets in October. They had three horses on the wagon. Now, you wouldn't know what that is, but they were hauling beets. It was done by using beet forks, which were about that wide, and little things on the end so you wouldn't pierce the beets. The beets were topped by hand. They would put them on the beet fork, then, with a beet knife, hit the top off. Then they would be in a windrow and after a while these men would come along with their big wagon and three horses, usually, in the field. This was the first day we had been there. We came Monday and the next day we were out at dePreece's. My brother and I started school. Our luggage hadn't yet arrived. We followed this wagon. Some huge boys were loading the wagon. One horse was a packing horse. A packing horse won't pull. Two horses did, and the wagon got stuck, and the third horse would not. The third horse's name was Dick. Okay, remember that. He would hit the harness and come back, hit and come back. There are some people that are like that. So, Mr. dePreece got the pitch fork and hit him in the ribs. He said, "Get up, you S.O.B.!" I got his son, who was then 21 years old, and I said, "Sam, what does son of a bitch mean?" He is a good friend. He said, "Nothing to do with the history of Ogden." 4 I said, “I want to learn English. I want to be a good American. I want to be these things.” So, I walked with them all day long saying that. I thought good friend, good friend. This is on a Thursday. Sunday came and we went to the old Marriott church. Right where the IRS now is. So, here we went to church. My friend told me to walk up to a man and extend my hand and say, "Hello, you S.O.B." Which I did. It turned out to be the Bishop. Big fellow, and he looked at me, then Sam. I sat back and said my first test and I failed. I looked back at Sam and he was doubled over with laughter. So that was my first English I learned. You know, when things get tough, I have a tendency to still use that word. When I was a regional representative some years ago, I was out in a farming area. I had been invited to Ricks College to speak at a spiritual meeting. It was in the fall of the year. I went through some deep country and I remembered that. I told them the story. I: What schools did you go to? BW: We attended Washington Junior High School or Washington Elementary School. Johnny Jock was the principal. You've probably heard of him. My first teacher was Ida Gimsey. She was a fourth grade teacher. They put my sister and me in the fourth grade. My sister was older. That wonderful, wonderful teacher—I just love her. She doesn't live anymore. When I was mayor, I was asked to speak at the Ogden Education Association held up at Ogden High School. I said "I want you to know one teacher that gave her all in teaching some children who did not know the language. She 5 stayed after school. She had a book, Dutch Twins, of all things. She taught us after school every day, and taught us how to read English and understand. So, I made some comment about it, and I don't know if she is still alive. Her name is Ida Gimsey." Somebody came up to me afterward and said, "Ida Gimsey lives in Logan. She is married." So, I made a trip up there shortly after that. I said, "Ida Gimsey, I want you to know I am grateful for what you have done." She said, "Who are you?" I said, "Dutch Twins-Remember?" She said, "Ahhh." That woman went the extra mile—A lot of extra miles. So, that is where we went to school. Then ultimately we went to junior high school, then to Ogden High. I: Did you attend Weber? BW: Yes, I attended Weber. I was freshman class president there, and then sophomore class president. It was just a junior college then. I played football. I: Since it was a junior college, did you have a particular degree you were working for? BW: Yes. I wanted to go to West Point. I thought I would like to go to West Point. So, Albert Thomas and his sister, Blanch Thomas McKay, at Ogden High School, I went to see her one day. I said, "What do you think? Do you think I could make it to West Point?" She said, "I see no reason why not." So, I worked on that and she helped me. Harry McCool was also trying. 6 There were several others. Ultimately, Harry was given the appointment. I received several letters that said, if Harry doesn't go, you get the appointment to West Point. I wanted to be in the army. I had a friend who was a dentist, Paul Olsen. When he was a young man, he decided to go into the army. Of course, this was before the war. He said, "Bart, I think you could get into the army if you went to dental school." I thought, okay, that sounded like a good idea. Of course, we are skipping a lot of years; so I did. I was in the army for 52 months. I couldn't wait to get out. So, I guess it was good idea that I didn't go to West Point. I: Where did you complete your undergraduate education? BW: I went to Weber for two years, and then I needed some more chemistry, so I spent part of a third year here. I went to Berkeley. Then I went to dental school at the University of California San Francisco. That is where I got my B.S. degree. I worked for the Salt Lake Tribune as a newspaper carrier. I worked for seven years. I also worked at the American Foodstore, out on 27th and Washington, where now there is a muffler shop. I worked there on Saturdays. I was a checker there. Wilbur, my boss, liked what I did, and said, "I'll give you top salary. You'll get $2.00 for a Saturday at night and not have to work Sunday morning." Then along with my newspapers in the summertime I'd worked in American Cans stacking cans and being a box clerk. I saved $800 to go to dental school. $800. So, I said to my mother, "My sisters and brothers will help me if they will pay $7 a month. I can make it. So, my mother provided some, and my brother and sister. I had $21 a month. So, I went down to the University of California. Of course, that eight hundred was soon gone. 7 I became manager of the fraternity houses and ran that while going to school. I started working on a ferry boat going over to South Leah for the ship builders. I worked nights, and went to school during the day. I: When did you finish school? BW: 1942. I: Were you in the military during the war time? BW: Oh, yes. I was already in the reserve in order for me to be in school. They didn't give you a deferment. Toward the end they did. When I graduated they didn't. As soon as I graduated I went into the army. That was '42. Then I went down to Texas on a troop train. They would assign you to a battalion. I was assigned to a battalion going to Europe; the 164th Infantry, which were all blacks. That is a story in itself. We had 1400 blacks and 27 officers. The officers were all black. You know, you don't realize that, but I was dumbfounded. I automatically became a first lieutenant when I graduated and got a commission. I was on the troop train and saw stations with whites only and blacks only restrooms and drinking fountains. That's the way they lived. I'm not giving you much history of Ogden. So, anyway, out of the 1400 blacks we had over 500 who didn't know how to read nor write. They had their pay periods. Every Friday was a pay day. I think they got $40 a month, something like that. Friday nights they had to designate some to go home to their parents. Some would buy savings bonds, and what money they had left, why they would go to the pay master. He would have a little desk about the size of this, and he would sit behind for his company. The soldiers would come and get their cash money. They would have a sheet of paper in front of them like they 8 do with their names. He would say, "Okay, Hornshoreman, sign here." He would write me an X. "Okay, Twelve Foot, sign here." They did it like that. Honest to goodness. I swear. Go back here 54 years. These kids had been taken off farms, cotton farms, and they had never been to school. They would come from slave families maybe two or three generations. One black soldier was named Lemon, so they called him Orange. One was called Even. They had other names, of course. Washington was a very common name. Well, I had a commanding officer who was a real gem. What a great man! He was the post commander. General Botkoff. We were down in Texas, and we sent a directive to the battalion. Our commanding officer was a Colonel from Chicago. His name was Chika. He said, "Colonel, I want these men to learn how to read and write." What do you do when you are on an army base, and you are training all day long? So he said, "All right, this is what we are going to do. I want every man who's had an experience with college or university to volunteer." By the time he got through, he didn't have a lot of volunteers because none of the enlisted men were college material. They hadn't even been to school. He finally said, "We will take anybody that has graduated from high school." So we got a party together. Then he said, "The men will spend Monday and Wednesday nights after chow" - that means their dinner - "and you men will teach them." He got a bunch of material. So, we said, "Okay, Mondays and Wednesdays. How are you going to get these men to accept?" He said, "That's easy. There will be no weekend passes for those who don't go to school Mondays and Wednesdays." That was simple. 9 The fellahs wanted weekend passes, so they would come out. You know that when we were ready, in five or six months, they were able to read, laboriously, and like it. They were able to write a letter home, and they could read a letter that came from home. That is what he wanted. I think back at what a visionary he was to say, "Look, we got the raw material, let's do something with it." So that's what he did. I: Did you teach? BW: Oh yeah. I was already married. My wife was home. I: So, did you spend the rest of the time you were in the army in Texas? BW: No. We were in Texas until '44, and then we went overseas. We went to Europe. I went overseas and got over there in '44 or '45. I: There must have been extremely heavy fighting. BW: Yes, there was. Let me explain to you what type of tank battalion I was with. An ordinance battalion is an organization that provides ammunition, gasoline, and repairs. In other words, they keep the army going. That's what these men did. We had tank retrievers. They were what we called "low boys." Some of these tanks weighted maybe 35-40 tons. A tank would get knocked out. Well, you couldn't replace them fast enough. So, what you would do, is you would get the tank retrievers after the battle had subsided. They would go out and pick up the tanks that were damaged. Put two of them on these low boys and bring them back maybe five or six miles behind the lines. We would set up in a shop or field or anything. We would repair them, and supply gasoline and ammunition. That was our job. I: Was this in France? 10 BW: We started in France, then Luxembourg, Belgium, Holland and Germany. I was in five countries. I: How much dentistry did you practice? BW: Not much. I was a midwife a couple of times! I: How long were you there? BW: I was there 14 months. I: You came back and practiced? BW: I couldn't come back and practice. I had enough time - they gave you points for serving - and I had enough time to get out of the service when the war ended. The war didn't end until the Japanese capitulated. I was needed to go over to the Pacific. The average individual doesn't understand what the problem was. We had 17 million men and woman under arms. 17 million! Okay, when the war was over, what did the families want? They wanted their husbands, they wanted their sons, they wanted all these people back home. They couldn't get back home until they had a physical exam. We had to take care of dental needs. We needed to fix some broken teeth. Yes, I spent some time near the front line; I would, in many cases, do first aid treatments for someone who needed a jaw shut off or something like that. I got them so they were comfortable, then put them in the ambulance and sent them on back. I had to stay there longer. I started my practice later with Russ Pickett. I: You married an Ogden girl? Where did you meet her? BW: I met her at Weber. We had chemistry together. The professor sat us 11 alphabetically. I knew her in high school, but she would look at me. She claimed I looked at her. But anyway, as we were in Ralph Grade's chemistry; it went Williams, Wilson, Wolthius. That is how we sat. I really didn't show any interest in Ellen at first, but that's how we met. We didn't get married until I was in my last semester of school. I: So, Ellen was with you part of the time. BW: She was with me part of the time. After she came to Texas, they told us we would be in Texas quite a while. She was only there a short period of time, and then I went overseas. Ellen went back home. While I was at Weber College, I told you I was part of the freshman and sophomore classes. I was also Jack Frost up there. My wife asked about that. I: Who was Jack Frost? BW: That was for a dance. I was the most preferred male. I: Why did you decide to go into local politics? Was there one incident that prompted your decision? BW: I am glad you asked that, because I have been asked that sometimes. At the time, I was the Bishop of the 7th Ward. I didn't like some of the things. You remember Maury Showf? We had some unsavory things, and so I was approached by a number of people. Some of my patients, and some people from the community. They said, "Why don't you run for the city council?" A Bishop in those days didn't have an Executive Secretary. So, that means you were busy six days a week. Absolutely six days a week. You were busy every night. So, until now I don't have 12 time. I remember the Hemingways. Who was the brother that died? Robert. He teased me. John asked him to run. So, I did. Richard Richards ran against me. Richard Richards and I had a low-key thing. Knock on a few doors and have a few meetings in homes. I beat him by 20, 30, or 40 votes, and had to have a recount. That is all I have to tell. It gets in your blood and you think, well, then you realize what needs to be done. The council used to elect a mayor from among their own. They did. That was a good thing. It was supposed to be non-political. Henry Aldous was on the chartered commission of educators from Ogden High School. Married Mary Wholley. So the people got into it. Ogden City has an unsavory history in some areas. I thought Roseanne King loved her mother. I knew them. Then I had an officer that lived right next to her too - well, you'd know him. He lived up on 12th street. He was a motorcycle police officer, Daryl Shaw. He used to tell me some stories. Ogden was a pretty open town. In fact, it was open to the extent that when I was in the army, and we would get away from Utah; "Where are you from, soldier?" "Ogden, Utah." "Oh, I know about 25th street." It was a wide open thing. I had experience with that. I was a newspaper carrier for seven years for the Salt Lake Tribune. Sid Johnson, S.E. Johnson, was a distributer. He was Dale Browning's relative. Last five years I worked for the Salt Lake Tribune, by the time I was out of high school and in college I worked for the Tribune. I had a very fine route because I had all the businesses. That also meant I had every house of 13 prostitution down 25th Street. We had a lot of restaurants there. You had several restaurants that were run by the Greeks. Wonderful restaurants. I forget the names of most of them. There were more prostitution houses on 25th Street than there were restaurants, bars, hotels, and whatever. They were in there thick and heavy. During the Depression years, the Salt Lake Tribune cost 92 cents during Governor Blood's term. They use to call it Blood money, the two cents which was sales tax. They were little tokens. If you owed two and half cents you would pay them two cents and then you maybe would have had a five token, or a single token. You had all kinds of money. So, ninety-two cents was what the Tribune cost. So, every Monday, if we paid the bills, I made 20 cents. That was less than a penny a day. I'd go to the First Security Bank Building, Eccles Building. I had the Federal Building. I had all of Washington Boulevard on both sides, 24th and 25th, over to Grant, Lincoln, and Wall. I had all the business establishments. During the Depression I'd go into an attorney's office - Arthur Wholley or David Wilson - to collect. They'd say, "Can you come back next week? I do not have it." That is true, they did not have it. There was an insurance man who lived on 12th street up above Ben Wilson's place. He was also a customer who had his office there. I'd say, "I've come to get it." He'd say, "Don't have it." I'd have to go back for the 92 cents. I'd go to the house of prostitution. I'd say, "May I collect for the newspaper?" They would throw me a 20-dollar bill. 14 I said, "I don't have any change." They expected change. Those ladies were adults. Once in a while they'd tell you they would take it all in trade. I was a kid. I didn't know about a good time or not. So, it goes to show you how tough things were. It really was. The only business that was encouraging was the one we are talking about. The reason it flourished is because the city government turned their head away. There was money under the table. I mean, talk to Sam Barker; our mutual friend was the city attorney during those days or a little after. He was a judge. He says it was not unusual that they would go to raid a place and they would have been tipped off by the police. So, that's the kind of community we had. The politicians were not as good as they could have been. There were some honest politicians. Fred Abbott and David, who was manager of the Techron Building. He was in city government. Wonderful people! But you see, their underwriting, it put them all over. Now, you ask why I ran. Well, I thought, knowing that as a background, why not. So, that's why I ran for city council. Those who preceded me on the city council did a good job. The problems that were involved were so intense, and they were divisive; the council were at each other’s throats. The council members were sort of like what we have now, in a way. Isaacson and a number of others; police chief and city monitor, made visits themselves. That was counter to the charter. The people were up in arms, and wanted to get rid of city government. I: What was the most difficult situation you faced as a council member or as mayor? BW: There were many. I can tell you one that bothered me more than anything. We just had it here not too long ago. In fact, it was when I was running for re-election. That 15 is, the police wanted a raise, and we did give them as big a raise as they wanted. So, they got the attention of the public by writing tickets. I don't care who the driver, I can give you a ticket if I follow you long enough. That is a ticky tacky type thing, but you can. You didn't come to a complete, dead stop. Okay, so they are writing tickets, and they are ready to nail us to the cross. We said, let us see if we can solve this, but the union wanted to embarrass us. The city council is a non-partisan organization. It is supposed to be. Republicans or Democrats, you didn't have to identify yourself. That was good, but there were people who did not like the fact that they could not control the city council. You had seven people to control. They didn't like it. Bruce Jenkins was one of them. He got involved with the Young Democrats. It is interesting how things work, because somebody's wife that worked for the police got her husband to stir up some problems. So that was how it started, and that was the most difficult. We tried to solve it, but they wouldn't let us solve it. It was really the hardest thing. We had dishonesty that showed up. Not so much with American files, but payoffs we'd find. I jeopardized myself on that. You do have your problems, and as long as you are dealing with human beings, somebody can always be bought. So, you have some of those problems. You had it during that period of time and since that time. For instance, there is a great deal of competition in running an organization, whether it is a county or a city, state or whatever it is for the business. So, some of these agents who come to see you are representatives. They control the deal. You have to guard against it. Ogden and Weber County are in a good position because of what they did. They had an Ogden and Weber purchasing 16 agent. We were buying against each other, and then ultimately joined and eliminated lots of problems. I: Will you tell us the story of Ogden's acquisition of the Union Depot? BW: Well, as you know, the 25th Street restoration was begun many years ago. People with vision decided some of these old buildings were worth salvaging and restoring. So that started during the time I was in city government. The Ogden business people decided we needed something with history on 25th Street. Some people purchased some of the old buildings, and see what they have done with them. I think it is a real plus. Then we had thought for quite some time that the rail depot was a really beautiful building. It really is; the mural in there. I have forgotten the name of the artist, but it was painted during the NRA days during the Depression. He was brought from New York and painted it. When we were looking to do something with it, that man was still alive. He volunteered to come out here and restore that painting. I wish I could remember what his name was. It would be on that painting. The railroads didn't have much passenger service. There used to be train service in and out of Ogden every few minutes. Well, we were known as a railroad town. We had over 4,000 employees working for the railroad. Now, you remember in your childhood that if someone was working for the railroad, they had it made. Because of the advent of airplanes and cars, you know, as you go back to our childhood there weren't many people who had cars. There may have been a few in the East. If someone had a car, it was really something. So, you had the street car 17 run by the Eccles, Utah Idaho Central, and Upton, and Bamberger running through Salt Lake. That was major transportation trains. So, when ridership began to fall off, the railroads weren't interested in maintaining these huge stations. So, we decided we would talk to the railroads; the UP, SP, and the OUR&D that was organized by Southern and Union Pacific to run the depot and tracks in the railroad yards. The SP and UP were concerned with pulling the trains and taking them to their destination. They did not have the engines in the yard. OUR&D provided that. So they lost interest in their passenger service. They didn't need a station, or freight provisions. So, they kept cutting back and cutting back. Many of the passengers who wanted to ride what trains there were had to go to Salt Lake. I: Where did the idea for the museum originate? BW: Now you're getting ahead of the story. I am sorry. Okay. I'll get to that. I'm just hitting some ground work. They had to go to Salt Lake, so we knew the railroads were not interested. Jack Richards was our city attorney, and you could never find a better city attorney. Jack is a good friend of mine and a patient. I said, "Jack, you cut me out a deal." So many times we would go to pass an ordinance and Jack would say, "It is not legal." I said, "Jack, leave the room and let's pass it and get on with it." I said, "Jack, what would it take to get this station?" We kicked it around. This answers your question. Some of these railroad buffs, a Jewish colonel - Nate Maesar, good guy. I loved him - still do. He is still around. He bought some stock in 18 the railroad and Heber Creeper. He bought some cars. He made a good investment. He said, "Wouldn't it be nice if we had a railway museum outside the depot?" You know, you do some brainstorming and think what if and what if. So we decided as we talked - Mark Garney from the Ogden Chamber was president of the organization - "Why don't we see if we can get the depot?" Jack said "It will probably cost a million." I said "No, what it will take is for them to give it to us. Maybe we could make it a tax credit to them?" So, we talked about it. Murray Moler got involved also. Murray had some good ideas. So, one day I got a call from Union Pacific that the vice president was going to be in town. Meanwhile, we had the celebration of the Golden Spike. I had met the railroad people out there up in Promontory. I had met the SP and UP president and vice presidents. This was a courtesy call on his part. He said "I got my car in town. I wonder if you will have dinner with me tonight." I said I surely would. He said just the two of us. That was great. You will find these people got to keep the people happy where their centers are, because there are some problems with railroad crossings. Some of the manufacturers wanted to have the railroad build overpasses. So, they had to keep us happy. That was what this meeting was about. He said, "How are we doing? How are we serving the area?" I sat down. I said, "About these railroad crossings. Some people have to wait 20 minutes, half an hour. This is switching. We do have some problems with 19 people blocking trains, and on North/South we have some problems." We had a very friendly chat. He said, "Is there anything we can do for you?" I said, "Yes. How would you feel about giving us the railway depot?" He said, "I don't see any reason why not." That's the vice president. He said, "Let me get back to the office in Omaha. You know we're not giving you that much. It would be to our advantage to unload it." This is the UP. I wish I could remember his name, but I do not. He said, "I think we can swing it." I said, "What kind of rapport do you have with SP?" There was a man at the time who was president. I met him; I don't remember his name. He said, "Well, we're competitors, but we have to run this building jointly. We have to run the yard jointly." He said, "We're not anxious about having this building. It is a real white elephant." So I said, "How would you like to contact me about giving it to Ogden City?" He said, "I think you'd get farther if you went for Salt Lake. There is a certain amount of jealousy involved. If we say how about it, then Union Pacific will get credit - no I think you'd be better off if you asked them yourself." Jack Richards was the superintendent for SP down here. Jack is a Rotarian, and a good Irishman. I met with him one day. I said, "Jack, what would be the chances of talking to your people about that building?" He said, "Well, I think they'd sell it. I don't think they'd give it." So, I wrote a letter to them. I had Jack help with it. They said "We are only interested in selling it. 20 We don't want to make a donation to the city even though it might be advantageous to us. We would be giving too much away." Meanwhile, I told Murray what the situation was. He said, "Have you looked up Brigham Young's deed to the railroad companies back in the 1860s?" I said, "No, I haven't. I might be able to look at it." So, we had someone go over and get a copy of the deed. At the time the Mormons first came into the valleys, some of them practiced polygamy for a number of years. It wasn't wide spread. If you had a polygamist family, that automatically came with that rush. So, the government decided what they would do is bring the Church into line. They threatened to take over their properties unless they changed their ways. Brigham Young said, "Well, we will take care of that." So, he made a change in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. He put all the properties - that is, in those days they made sure there was acreage for building wards, tabernacles, and temples ultimately. He put this land in his family's name so the government couldn't take the land. He said, "This belongs to Brigham Young's family and heirs, not to the church." Which I think was a great move, and it is even greater as I tell the rest of the story. Legally they could not take away the property. Well, 100 years later, there in the deed it says; I don't remember the acreage, it is over 100 acres, that the church had given to the railroads. In those days, you remember, they were coming from the west and from the east and they were meeting at Promontory. They had to have a railroad center. Brigham Young said, "Okay." I don't remember the exact words. It was 110 or 120 acres of property in perpetuity for railroad and depot 21 activities so that the public could be better served. In the event that the depot would not be used in perpetuity, the land would revert to his family and heirs. I said, "Jack, what do you think of that?" He said, "Well, I think they could have beat it, but they didn't." So, we wrote and said we would like to meet them in San Francisco. We didn't ask them to come here. Murray Moler, Mark Downey - anyway, there were four of us. I can't remember who the fourth person was. We were shown into his office, which is a lovely office. Very gracious. He said, "What can we do for you gentlemen?" I said, "We indicated to you that we were still interested in the depot. We once indicated to you that Union Pacific is willing give their half to Ogden City. We would like to have the whole building to use it for a convention center and a railroad museum." He had his staff of attorneys. He looked like he had about six or seven attorneys with him there. He said, "Okay. What do our attorneys say?" The lead attorney said, "Absolutely not. We can get two million dollars out of that." I said, "Even if we own half the building?" He said, "Yes." I said, "We are interested in the whole building and we want to maintain it. We have the artist lined up who will come back out and refresh that painting, the mural that is there." 22 He said, "No. We could only get maybe a $600,000 tax credit. The building is worth more than that." So, I dug a little piece of paper from my pocket. I said, "President, have you seen this?" I gave it to him, a copy of the deed. He looked at it and said, "What does that say?" The attorney said, "Well, that says if that railroad is given in perpetuity and if we don't use it as depot property it will revert back to Brigham Young and his heirs." Well, the president said, "How many heirs do you think there are?" I said, "President, he had 27 wives. It has been over a hundred years. I would imagine there would be 20,000 or more." He looked at it. He said, "You didn't know this was in existence?" Turning to his attorney, "Why didn't you know that?" I didn't know it was there. Murray put me up to it. So, they discussed this openly. "What about it?" I said, "Mr. President, there are probably a lot of people who don't know about this deed, but there are probably some who do. You are looking at a class action suit on this thing." He turned to his attorney, "Well, let me think about it. It is going to cost us an awful a lot more money if we let things work." He said we could have it. So, we came back home. That is the way it happened. You got to give credit to Brigham Young and Murray Moler to get things adjusted. Murray Moler and Brigham Young are poles apart. Well, any other questions? 23 I: I would like to know more about the relationship between Ogden City and state government while you were in office. BW: It was very good. We had a good relationship. You've got to remember; we don't have the political clout in the legislature that Salt Lake has. I mean, it is just not there. The state ends at North Salt Lake. We had Cal Rampton, a good friend of mine. We had a good association. Merle Allen, who preceded me as mayor, had a good association. Sometimes we just did not have the votes in the legislature. However, we got a lot of things accomplished here. One thing that happened during my administration was, with the county's help, we purchased some development land out West for the Weber CountyOgden City industrial complex. We didn't have this to begin with. It wasn't my brain child, but we decided - the city, the county, and the chamber - decided we need some land so that we go out after these industries we can say all right, we have X number of acres here we can donate. The problem with any industry when they come in, if I have a piece of land, and I know the industry wants it. I am going to sell it. So, we had to do something in order to protect ourselves. When an industry comes into a community, they don't ask what the tax base is. They start with asking how good are your schools, how good are you culturally speaking, what about the community - then down the list they'll ask, what is your tax base? They already know what the tax base is, or they wouldn't look at you. That's it. They want to find out the scoops, about the university. How close is the nearest university? Of course, we had Weber. Can we get trained people from Weber? Yes, we can. That's been a great, great help. In fact, the fact that we had a 24 university; we had a university fifty miles to the north and the south, and we had Weber, that was a real plus. Another thing is the work ethic of the people. People still know how to work. The fact we got the industrial complex going out there, that really made it a plus. We have lots of people out there. The supply depot; we thought it was the end of the world when the Defense Depot closed. I am concerned about the depot closing, but I am not concerned about the long term effects. I think industry will move in. I wish we were twice as big. I don't think we have enough room. So you see, the future is bright for this community. The daily ticky tacky things are boring. We have a bright future. I think one of the greatest things was getting ZCMI to come to Ogden. I don't want to extol the virtues of ZCMI, but it is a great store. You need two major stores to anchor a mall. Ultimately, we got ZCMI to come. Then when they came a big thing was made of it because there were some people who want to shop ZCMI. I think that was one of the great coups that happened in Ogden City. They would have come ultimately. They came, and because of that, we were able to anchor downtown. That is why they have made such a to-do about moving them to the mall; because they didn't have enough strong stores to really anchor it. I think that was one of the best things we did for downtown Ogden. I: What do you think of the changes to the charter? BW: I don't like it. I will tell you what my dislikes are. To begin with; to cost over $600,000 a year for another level of government. The reason that was done away with was - Dirks was a proponent of it, and the reason for it was because he didn't 25 have enough power. He had a city manager deal with it. He was not a strong mayor. None of us in his time were strong mayors. The citizens elected a mayor, but you had to work through the council. You see, the mayor can veto the council, and the council can veto what the mayor wants. It can be a logger head. Some people give the Standard Examiner credit, I know. Let me tell you a story. It is my opinion that the manager, the council member type of government, cannot be controlled very well by special interest groups. You have to deal with the city manager and eight council members. That means you have to be above board on everything, because you are dealing with that many people. I think the news media decided that they wanted to have more input in what was going on in our community. I told Joe Breeze this. I like Joe—a good man. I served on several boards with him. He was a publisher. I said "Joe, you are saying something about reflecting the attitude of community. No, you don't do that as a newspaper. You formulate opinions." He said, "No, we reflect." I said, "No; many of the educated, yes. Many people say, it is true because I read it in the paper. Isn't that right? I read it in the paper - it must be true." Bologna. If you start seeing it in the paper, then you had better start looking for the truth. It isn't the best. You see it with this form of government. You've got the council, then they have director the council. Then the mayor has an executive assistant. You've got your two levels of government. It isn't as good as it was before. 26 I: How long since it was the other form of government? BW: Let's see. Mecham was the first mayor to serve. He is running for re-election. It is four years. So, there are many people. I was going to tell you. At the time, the Standard Examiner was so strong for this new change. Some of the best brains in this community formulated the principles of a council manager form of government. This is a good government. We got the mayor elected by popular vote. That is fine. I called Flora Ogan one day. I said, "Flora, may Karl McFarland and I come to see you?" Karl McFarland was the assistant mayor. He was a sharp individual. "Let me spend an hour with you. Let's discuss this form of government that you are talking about." She had written some glowing articles about how wonderful it was. Now, I had been very kind to Flora when I was mayor. She would call and ask about this or that. "Sure, I'll come and talk to you about this and brief you." So, I felt she owed me a favor. I expected her to say, "Sure, come right on over." She said, "Bart, why don't you write a letter to the editor?" I said, "Flora, this is more than a letter to the editor. This is about a form of government. I think there are some of the things you are telling the public are not correct. You need to know that." She said, "We have made up our minds." I said, "Flora, you owe me this." She said, "What good would it do? The paper has made up its mind." I said," least give the other side of it. Turn over the page. Show the other side." She wouldn't do it. 27