Oral History Program Paige Zarogoza-Davies Interviewed by Kandice Harris 9 July 2024 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Paige Zarogoza-Davies Interviewed by Kandice Harris 9 July 2024 Copyright © 2025 by Weber State University, Stewart Library Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description Connecting Weber: History of the Cultural Centers oral history project documents the memories and history of the various cultural centers that were open at Weber State University. These centers included the Multicultural Center (later called the Center for Belonging & Cultural Engagement), Women's Center, Native American Cultural Center, Asian American and Pacific Islander Cultural Center, Pan-Asian Cultural Center, Black Cultural Center, and the LGBTQ Resource Center. The centers were closed in July 2024 due to state legislation. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Zarogoza-Davies, Paige, an oral history by Kandice Harris, 9 July 2024, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, Special Collections and University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Paige Zarogoza-Davies conducted on July 9, 2024 in the Stewart Library with Kandice Harris. Paige talks about her work in victim advocacy and the cultural centers on the Weber State campus. She also shares her views of the cultural centers and the impact their closing has had. KH: Hello. Today is July 9, 2024. We're with Paige Zarogoza-Davies to talk about the cultural centers closing. Kandice Harris is doing the interview, and Raegan Baird is filming. When and where were you born? PZD: I was born in Bakersfield, California, in August 1990. KH: Okay, did you grow up in Bakersfield? PZD: For a little bit and then I moved with my mom to live with my grandparents in Idaho, in Fairfield, Idaho. It's in Camas County. It's like 1,000 people, very small. I grew up there really, and then went to the University of Idaho for my undergraduate degree in archeology and psychology, and then moved to Portland State, got my masters, and now I'm here. KH: So, what was it like moving from California to Idaho? PZD: I was young, and I think I was at first upset about it because we were leaving my friends. But I really loved where we were moving. We visited a lot in the summer time, but I went from being in a really big town with a lot of people to a very small town and totally different like, culture and pace of life. But I really enjoyed it. I loved living in a small farming community. KH: Okay, great. What is your relationship with Weber State? PZD: I started here in 2015 when I first graduated grad school. I have a Master's of Educational Leadership and Policy, and I was looking for jobs because at the time I knew I was moving to Utah, I was kind of location bound. Interviewed at a few different schools and I think actually like Saturday is my interview anniversary day. KH: Oh, cool congratulations. 1 PZD: I just remember that day, and then when I started, I was the first—well, we could talk about this, but I was a victim advocate, Safe@Weber victim advocate and program coordinator. I was in that role until 2018, when I became director of the Women's Center until December of this past year, 2023, when I became Assistant Dean of Students. I kind of just recently left the Women's Center, but had been there since 2015. KH: Great. Would you talk a little bit about each of your positions? PZD: Yeah. So, Safe@Weber Victim Advocate Program Coordinator at the time. The previous director, Carol Merrill, and then the program coordinator, Dorothy Hill, had both retired from like 2014 to 2015. At that point in time, the police department had created the Safe@Weber program for Violence Prevention. It was moved into student affairs and decided that it would be a part of the Women's Center. Women centers across the country have long done violence prevention and victim advocacy. Everywhere else in the state does it different. Each school kind of does it a different way, but they chose for it to be here in the Women's Center. That summer, all of the professional staff have left or retired. They hired Stephanie McClure as the first director and then myself as the program coordinator. But Stephanie knew if she was going to run a violence prevention program, she also wanted a victim advocate, because if we talk about unhealthy relationships and abuse, students are going to want to talk about it and need resources. At the time, I was doing both confidential victim advocacy. It was the first time we had a designated victim advocate here at Weber State. That was really interesting to try to learn like, how do we fit into the Title IX and the criminal justice process? Luckily, I was met with very open arms, especially from our Title IX coordinator at the time. Barry Gomberg was like, “Any help that we can get for survivors and victims, let's get it.” He really embraced my role in that process, which was extremely helpful. 2 I also was the program coordinator, and we were trying to start like, feminist education and social justice education programing. It was an interesting climate to arrive in at Weber State because Stephanie and I had both come from Oregon. We had actually both lived in Portland but didn't know each other. She moved here, and then a few months later, she hired me. I think everyone always thought that we were like together, came together. We were like, “No, this is a big coincidence.” But we were used to a much different culture in Portland. I remember when we started, I would be in meetings with advisors and like different coordinators around campus, and they would introduce me and be like, “If you have a student who is going through something or who's having a crisis—” I was like, “No, we need to say like sexual assault, domestic violence, because I can't just work with, like, any student having a crisis. My work is very specific.” I've seen the culture of how we talk about sexual assault and domestic violence really change here at Weber. Which gives me a lot of hope for other things as well still, because I think we went through like a deep change in a short amount of time around that topic. I was also trying to figure out how to do feminist education in this culture. I think Stephanie and I had a lot of bumpy roads to try to figure out. Like, how do we talk about feminism? The center had a very long legacy at Weber State, started in 1980 and had served primarily single mothers returning to school. We found that a lot of the students who were coming now were 18, just in college for the first time, didn't have children, so we kind of had to quickly adjust what the center offered to meet them. In 2017-ish, we split the roles between so it would be three: a director, an advocate, and program coordinator, and then hired program coordinator Alex DutroMaeda, who is now the assistant director of the LGBT Resource Center, I think at 3 San Diego State. Then Stephanie left right after that. She went back to Oregon. I became interim director, so then we were back down to two. We had like, I don't know, maybe two days where there was three of us. Stephanie might have been gone by the time Alex started. We were able to hire a 20-hour a week grad student from the U, Yajanetsy Ruano-Ortez to do violence prevention education with me. At that point, we really designed the center to have three main focuses. So, there'd be Safe@Weber, there'd be education, well what was called Education Empowerment, and then leadership and something. I can't remember. But Safe@Weber was then violence prevention and victim advocacy. We had then, what, like two and a half of us, plus an admin who worked part-time between NonTrad and the Women's Center. We had another big change in 2019, where the testing center in the Union, I know this is not the original question, but I feel like it kind of flows— KH: That's okay, continue. PZD: The testing center closed and they remodeled the space and moved the Women's Center into that space with the LGBT Resource Center that was in student services. Then Veterans moved in with Non-Trad next door, so we kind of had this fourplex corner in the union. At that time, we were two separate departments, the Women's Center and the LGBT Resource Center, and had two staffs. They had a staff of one. We had myself, Alex, Yajanetsy, we hired a new admin at that time. Avery Lytle was our first admin in that space, and then we hired Jessica Pleyel as our Safe@Weber Victim Advocate after I became director. That was kind of the team for another couple years. After Yajanetsy graduated, the police department had this whole time been paying for Haven, which was our educational online tool that we use to meet Clery Act and Title IX compliance around violence prevention. We were paying like 4 $30,000 a year for a program that like 700 students participated in. It's federally required to be offered, but we don't require students to take it. So, they gave us that money to fund, with our half-time money, a full violence prevention coordinator, with the expectation that then we would create an online curriculum to replace the one that they were paying for. When we went into lockdown, that's what we did that whole year. It kind of worked out really well, because we were just on the computer all the time trying to make sure that this curriculum was evidence-based, had all the right information in it that's required by law; that we could like, sustain it and edit it. So, Madeline Cooper was the first full time Violence Prevention Coordinator. She moved and then Mercedes Ziegler joined after that. Alex ended up moving and Andrea Hernandez became the program coordinator. Avery Lytle went back to school and Caitlin Blanch became the admin. That's kind of the team that's there now, is Caitlin, Mercedes and Jess. Andrea took a job in Colorado at the beginning of the year. Mercedes and Jess handled Safe@Weber. Mercedes did all the violence prevention, Jess did victim advocacy. Andrea and Alex—oh my gosh, I totally forgot Kinsee. Kinsee Gaither was a part-time program coordinator before Alex. But they did the feminist education, feminist leadership development, and then also coordinated the leadership program with the rest of our staff. We really focused on hiring. Usually anywhere we had, over the years, between like five to 10 students staff a year that were hourly. We focused on building within, like feminist leadership skills within them, knowing that they wouldn't work in a women's center forever. But how can you take these tenets of feminist leadership into a marketing degree or social media or community events. They helped run everything, basically planned all of the programs, ran the social media, helped with reception, helped the violence prevention person do peer 5 education, do online training. I feel like in that 2022, 2023 year was like the most smooth flowing year that I had had in the Women's Center, where I felt like we were really at our peak. We had people in each position who did their jobs extraordinarily well and cared about the student. They still do care about students so well. So, we were seeing probably about 120 to 150 victims and survivors every year. Jess primarily—I would help with that as I was still a victim advocate, but mostly was doing like the managing and the supervision of the center as a director. Then we'd have about 50 workshops on healthy relationships, consent, bystander intervention, and then typically another like 20 to 30 smaller workshops or events focused on feminist education and social justice. So, we were really busy. KH: You were. PZD: Constantly, constantly busy. Then, just about the LGBT Center, Jason Stokes was the coordinator there, and he left his position in, I think, 2021 or 2022. At that time, we were kind of all moved under the vice president of EDI, Adrian Andrews. She had had the LGBT Resource Center start reporting to me as director of the Women's Center. So, we were still two separate departments, but I was supervising both. We hired Jessica Fisher, oh my gosh, maybe just a year ago. KH: I think so. PZD: Yeah, like last summer. She has really done a phenomenal job in that role, and I'm glad she's still here, but that made it even more bittersweet because I felt like we were just getting the LGBT Resource Center off the ground again when all of the legislation happened. I can probably go into it a lot more, but we could go back to questions. KH: What does the LGBT Center do? PZD: That was a question that both Jessica and I talked a lot about that first summer. When the LGBT Center was formed, the Resource Center was kind of two-pronged, 6 and we're going to provide events and community space for queer and trans students. At the time, in 2014-ish, 2015-ish, I think they were formed January 2015. Even just then, a lot of Weber students were still pretty closeted and not really open on campus, which is wild to think. I mean, that's not that long ago. A lot of their focus at that time was on training faculty and staff, like LGBT 101, safe zone, what are pronouns, who are trans people. The very basic education. When Jessica came on board, it was really like, we're not in that place anymore on our campus. It felt like if the Resource Center was primarily funded through private donations from Jane and Tammy Marquardt, it was primarily funded through them to focus on students. So, we really drew back to that to say, “It's 2024, you're one person, put your energy into students rather than trying to train the rest of campus. The rest we can get on board. We can figure that out and do our own professional development.” She really started focusing on community building events, gathering resources, and kind of her tagline, the mission for the center, is tangibly improving the lives of queer and trans students at Weber State. What could she do through scholarships, through emergency funds, books, resource pantry items? Community? How could we really improve the lives of queer students? I really appreciated that perspective that she has, that the center's not going to come in and like, change the world and change the whole university culture. But there are things that we can do every day to make student’s lives better. I think she has been doing that excellently since. KH: Okay. How did you get into this field of work? PZD: Yeah, when I was an undergrad, I was an archeology student and anthropology. Worked in a museum, worked in archeology labs, and really felt like that was what I 7 was going to do. But then, kind of a few things culminated at once, and I decided I don't want to do archeology anymore. I was on a dig in Grenada, Colorado at the Amache Internment Camp that Japanese-Americans were held at during World War II. I met some women there who were participating in the dig, and they had grown up in the camp. They had lived in the camp when they were little girls, and kind of listening to them tell their story, and how it impacted them and their parents and then their children. I was like, I love archeology and I love the history, but I felt like what we were doing wasn't— we were telling the story, which I think is incredibly powerful. Like, I'm here, right? But I wanted to be more hands-on with social justice work. So, I started to get involved in the Women's Center on our campus and the LGBT, I don't even remember what it was called, but essentially the LGBTQ center. During that time, I went to the University of Idaho in Moscow, and we had an incident where a professor murdered a student that he was involved with in a relationship and then killed himself. He was one of my psychology professors, and I knew him quite well. I knew of her, kind of knew her. Her name's Katie Benoit, and that just changed my trajectory again. I was in the Women's Center, and when that happened, it was just so—It was right around the time that the Dear Colleague letters were coming out from the Department of Education around Title IX and sexual harassment in higher education, and how universities had really been failing students. To kind of just watch it play out in the worst way, and with somebody I knew, right, I knew him. I had taken a lot of classes from him. It was one of those things where, as students, we found out that it was a professor. I was like, “Oh.” Then when they said it was a psychology professor, I was like, “I know immediately who it is.” That upset me that so many of us were like, “Oh, it's him and Katie.” Like we knew, and we were just students. 8 I wanted to work in higher ed, then in women's centers, because I was like, that shouldn't be. That shouldn't be such common knowledge on your campus that your students just immediately know what happened without being told what happened. I went to Portland State for my degree in educational leadership and policy, I think, it's been so long. There I worked in the Queer Resource Center, Disability Services. I was an academic kind of peer coach in gender and sexuality classes. Really, I just like, sat through those classes and then had like, study sessions for the students afterwards. Did volunteer coordination all through grad school. I worked like 40 hours a week in all these different positions. Went to school, graduated. I did my culminating project on affirming queer and trans students in higher ed and like, creating community-based resiliency and possibility models with students. I didn't do hands-on victim advocacy, but I felt like I did a lot of the work around it. When I came here, the job description was so vague when I interviewed. I was like, “I get that it's a program coordinator at a women's center, but it's so vague.” I remember Stephanie, when we met, we went to breakfast at Corner Bakery and we sat down. She was like, “Okay, here's the deal. We need a program coordinator. We need a victim advocate. So, it's only like 10% of this job, but this is what I need this person to do.” I had never done hands-on victim advocacy before, but I knew enough from my experiences at the University of Idaho and then at Portland State like, I could give that a shot. I took the job when it was offered and learned how to be an advocate, which was kind of cool because everything was starting. Safe@Weber was starting, it was new to have a victim advocate. It was new to me to figure out what a victim advocate is professionally as a vocation, and one specifically in higher ed too, because victim advocacy can be across—there are some differing job tracks for it. 9 Higher ed is very specific, it has very specific things that apply that don't apply to community advocates. So, that's how I got here. KH: You've done a lot. PZD: Yeah, I was like, I should probably do an oral history, I know quite a bit about the Women's Center. Now I'm Assistant Dean of Students, so in a similar vein, I mostly work with student conduct in crisis is what I say. So, students who potentially are butting heads in some way with the student code of conduct. I work with them to address the issue and resolve it and get them kind of on path to their education. Then students in crisis, so students who have mental health needs or suicidal ideation, suicide attempts. Typically, they're working with me in some way to get them connected to resources and kind of back on that path. I've had a lot of years in the Women's Center saying, “I'm not a therapist, and I can get you the resources and kind of just get you there.” In a way, it's kind of similar to being a victim advocate, but on another side of the coin. KH: To become a victim advocate, do you have to get a certain certification or go through specific trainings? PZD: In Utah you have to get a 40-hour training done. State law requires—there's two types of victim advocates: community- or systems-based. But everybody has to go through 40 hours of training through either the Utah Coalition Against Sexual Violence or the Utah Coalition Against Domestic Violence. They both host 40-hour trainings, and you can then get certified. If you work for a confidential rape crisis or domestic violence shelter, then you're technically confidential under state law. So, you cannot share information, usually even under subpoena, about a victim, unless you know of abuse of an elder, a child, or someone who can't live independently because of disabilities, or if they're a direct threat to harming other people. So, really, that's it. 10 Individual agencies, so community-based advocates or folks who like, work at YCC, Safe Harbor, YWCA, those agencies, and then systems-based advocates typically work for the judicial system. So, city or district court. They work alongside the prosecuting attorney as victim witness coordinators, and they will work with kind of all persons, crimes, victims. So, not just sexual assault or domestic violence, but physical assault. If someone's murdered, they work with the families. You can work for the FBI doing the same thing, you can work for individual law enforcement agencies, or you can work for campus. Campuses are this unique blend of systems and community, because they're kind of both, confidential under state law. In Utah, they don't have to report to Title IX coordinators like everyone else does on campus, they're confidential. But because federal law, the Clery Act, trumps state law, federal law says that they have to report statistical information about on-campus crime to Clery compliance officers. On our campus, that's the police department. So, it really just kind of depends. Once you get those 40 hours, some agencies or school departments require additional training. There's always talk in legislation about victim advocacy. A few years ago, it was something wild, like some legislative person proposed that victim advocates had to have like, a master's in social work to be confidential and practice. It was like, I know people who are excellent advocates who never went to college. We don't have to be clinicians; we are not clinicians. There is a very big difference between therapy and advocacy. There is the Utah Office for Victims of Crime, really supports victim advocates in the state and does quarterly trainings, eight hours of training every quarter. They also encourage us to get certification through NOVA, which is the National Organization for Victim Advocates. They have a credentialing program that 11 you have to do so many hours of direct service with victims or survivors of personal crime and some 40 hours of professional development a year to maintain your credential. Some states require that their systems-based advocates and their community-based advocates be no less certified, and that's probably where Utah's headed. My thing lapsed because I don't do it anymore, but Jessica and Mercedes both have that additional certification as well, just kind of for job protection through the state. I think one thing that I've really found in Weber County is it is a good team. We have a Weber County Sexual Assault Response Team, a SART team, and a Weber-Morgan County Domestic Violence Coalition. It's law enforcement, prosecutors, victim advocates, forensic nurses, Children's Justice Center folks, and they have monthly meetings to go over cases, to do best practices, do training together. Then there's a group called the Second District Advocates that are all the systems- and community-based advocates in the Second District Court of Utah. So, Weber and Davis County, and I think Morgan and Box Elder, I can't remember. But they meet quarterly as well to do training together. It's a very tight-knit community, because there's usually only one in each of these places too, there's maybe one or two. It's a pretty tight-knit community that does a lot of, like, cross training with each other. KH: Okay. With the advocacy program, does that position do a lot outside of Weber, or is it mostly focused on Weber? Like, I know you said that you've trained a lot together, but do you do anything like that outside of Weber? PZD: There's a lot of outside training to organizations on what like, Title IX and the Clery act are, because sometimes they're—higher ed is so confusing to outside agencies. Sometimes it's so funny with detectives or officers, they'll be like, “Well, it's not against the law.” 12 Then we're like, “But it might be against school policy, so refer them to us.” They need a lot of education usually. It's funny to hear them talk about it. They're like, “You know, like the law and [shooing away with hand] all that school stuff.” It's like, “That's a really big part of education.” The Women's Center and the Weber State Police Department co-train other agencies quite a bit together in-person at state conferences around Title IX and Clery and how our programs work together. But the victim advocate itself, that position is focused on Weber State. A lot of what my job was as director was kind of that outside education of community partners. We worked really closely with YCC to make sure all of their intake processes included things about, are you a student or not? Or a faculty member or staff? If you are, here's all these other resources. The victim advocates themselves work with students, staff, and faculty, so everybody on campus, and even visitors. Unfortunately, there can be situations where someone's visiting the residence halls or visiting a friend on campus and something happens and they become in need of resources. So, we can also assist. That's like the first we I think I've said, which I'm really proud of because usually I'm like, “We, we, we,” but I don't work there anymore. They can help anybody on campus. I think that's kind of the silver lining in all of this for me is over the last few years, we had spent a lot of time in the Women's Center together as a staff saying, “What are we? Are we a gender equity center?” There has been a national movement in women's studies and women's centers—we’re part of NWSA, the Women's Studies Association—of changing to gender equity centers. At first, there's been some pushback to that, because there's a long legacy of Women's Center staff who say, “We need to keep women in the title. We have fought so long 13 and so hard to get acknowledged, and does calling it a gender equity center erase that work?” There’re also folks who say, “And we need to talk about gender more broadly. We can talk about it in the same ways, through feminist lens, through an intersectional lens, and talk about trans and non-binary folks and talk about men and masculinity.” We were kind of in that, “do we, don't we,” for a long time. We had come to the decision, had it approved by President’s Council, to change our name to the Gender Equity Center. I think it might have had to been like Women and Gender Equity, because some folks still felt very strongly here. Our center, we were just like, “We want to be called Gender Equity,” and then have either the LGBT Center be a part of that or be separate still. We hadn't quite gotten that far, but we had just gotten all the approval to change everything. Then legislative season started and it was like, we got to pause this. We got to wait. So, that was pretty unfortunate. We also talked for a long time as a staff, is Safe@Weber separate from the Women's Center? Would there be two separate centers, like a Women's Center that does gender equity programing and gender justice work and then Safe@Weber, that does intersectional violence prevention and victim advocacy, and how does the LGBT Resource Center fit in this? Is it an umbrella center or is it three different ones? I think, what I was going to say originally was, the silver lining is that Safe@Weber gets to stick around. We're federally required to provide violence prevention education to our campus through the Clery Act and through Title IX. Who knows if that will change on a federal level someday. But right now, we have to provide that. State law that was passed a couple years ago says that all student organization leaders and student athletes have to be trained on bystander 14 intervention, consent, and healthy relationships. So, state and federal law requires somebody to do violence prevention, and they also say in federal law that it needs to be done in a culturally specific and relevant way. I think that still allows the Women's Center to look at, “Okay, how do we do talking about healthy relationships in queer communities? How do we do bystander intervention in any community?” We were hopefully going to start working with other cultural center program managers to develop curriculum that's based specifically in different racial or ethnic communities, knowing that the standard curriculum doesn't translate always with different cultural norms or values. I hope that they are able to continue doing that. There's nothing that requires victim advocacy, no law. It's just best practice. So, we hope that that sticks around too. But there's really good relationships between OEO, the police department, Dean of Students, and victim advocacy. I think having that program and having Jess at the head of it with Mercedes and hopefully a new advocate and Caitlin, I think they'll do really well. That was hard when I left because I was feeling a lot of professional burnout and kind of management burnout. I don't even talk to students anymore. I just talk to employees about their jobs. I wanted to transition. I had been interim Assistant Dean of Students for about a year before, and doing the Women's Center work, and I just am at a place in my career where I wanted to move positions. It was extremely hard for me to think about my career changing from then. Even though I was director, I was still a victim advocate, right? Or a prevention educator. Like, that was what at conferences and at community meetings, that was kind of the profession that I was in. Knowing when I moved to Dean of Students, like, I'm not doing that anymore. I'm in higher ed still, but it is a career change and it's a shift. I kind of had to come to terms with that. 15 But I knew that that team—I also had, you know, everybody, there was inklings that legislation was going to go badly, and I didn't want to leave during that. But then I also felt like they are so rock solid that they would be fine. I don't know how many of them you've been able to interview, but like, they are amazing people that can do their jobs incredibly well. I know that they'll continue to do Safe@Weber with just the same amount that they did with the Women's Center. They just can't do some of that other gender equity kind of gender justice training. Which is a constant conversation, right? How do you do violence prevention when you can't talk about intersectionality? But there are some really good opportunities there for them to expand, to talk about racism and homophobia and all different forms of violence, discrimination, harassment. How can they expand that, stay within the confines of the law, but still address other issues beyond sexual misconduct? I think that's an opportunity there for them even though all of the other Women's Center work will be ending in that particular way. KH: With all of the different positions that you've held in this profession, what has been the most fulfilling aspect of working with the different communities? PZD: I think one thing that I really loved is the students, and still do. Now, I get to work with students way more. I talk to students every day, and it's kind of refreshing, even though it's, like, no one really wants to talk to the Deans of Students office. But no one really wanted to go to a victim advocate's office either. I think my favorite parts is kind of being alongside people in those really, really hard points of their life. I had people who did that for me through undergrad and grad school. You know, we're not there to like, save them or fix them. Oftentimes there's like bureaucratic stuff and stuff with the law and prosecution, like everything's not going to just magically be fixed having somebody with you through that. But I think that just that ability to be with that student alongside them and say, like, 16 “Unfortunately, I have done this many times before, and I can help guide you through it.” That has been really incredible to hear students say, “Oh, I thought I was the only one,” or “I was alone.” Unfortunately, you know, you're not having a super unique moment, right? That's both comforting and upsetting for people to know. I think the thing I said the most was like, when students and survivors often will say like, “I think I'm going crazy,” or “I feel crazy, I feel d-d-d-d-d.” It's like, “You're having a very normal reaction to a very abnormal event.” Being with them in that feels really fulfilling, and it feels like helping. Right? Feels like I might not be able to give you all the money in the world to finish your degree, but like, let's go figure it out. The problem-solving aspect of it is pretty interesting. In the Dean of Students Office, I'm often the one like, getting them in trouble. So, they're not like, as quick to open up to me. Usually, I start out the conversation with being like, “You're not getting kicked out of school, this would be much different.” A lot of students, particularly young students, are very, very worried that they're going to be kicked out because they were drinking in the residence halls. For the most part, that has also been a place to say, “Let's just take a pause and look at your behavior and what you're doing and what are our university policies and expectations.” But then like also, what does it mean to be a part of a community? How does your behavior affect people around you? That's been a really interesting conversation to have. I have worked with respondents too of sexual misconduct, and harassment, and stalking. It's different to be on the flip side of it, to be able to talk about potential impacts that they had on the victim or survivor, and to hear their story and their perspective. We're not therapists. We're not like, rehabilitation people. None of that. 17 But I think those are also very hard moments for them as well, and to be in that with them, it's interesting. I think another thing I've really felt a lot of kind of favorite or fulfilling parts of it has been the staff around me in all those positions. Like the Women's Center team and the LGBT Resource Center team of one, but we just included her as part of the Women's Center. I think that has been, to see how staff have gone through rough things while working together in their personal lives, and to see how they supported each other through several political crises. The pandemic, and working from home, and elections. I got divorced and married and became a mom all in the time that I worked in the Women's Center. Just that support around each other is phenomenal. I think that is really unique. It comes, I think, from having a space where you can openly talk through the hard things, and you can share in those really low moments with each other and then like, find strength and humor in each other and be able to kind of lift each other out of it, or at least through it. I think that's something that's really special about many cultural centers that I've seen generally. Mostly been involved with women's centers and queer resource centers, but having been at three different institutions and seeing them, I kind of felt like they all have that feeling. They all have that, “It's real shitty out there, but we're here together.” That's something that's hard to see. I think other students and staff felt that way in other cultural centers here, so it's hard to see that go away. I think that there's an opportunity, or maybe like a duty then, to think about like, “Okay, then what? How do we create that space and that support in a different way?” If it's not like, institutionally supported, it's on us as a community. KH: Okay. I feel like you've kind of answered this question, but I want to see if there's anything you want to add. How do you feel you were serving your community while you were in the Women's Center, and even as the Assistant Dean? 18 PZD: Yeah, being in the Women's Center, just having a place for students and staff to explore options and resources. In so many different ways, I saw so many of the students who came in to use victim services or attend an event were just looking to kind of explore things. Like, what am I going to do as a career? What am I going to do here at school? Who am I? I think the biggest service that we gave and that I was a part of is just giving them this, helping kind of facilitate that space. That openness to, this might be the first place that you question religion or you question politics, and then how do we do that and still hold respect and care for people who are different from us in our religious beliefs or in political beliefs? Those things were so challenging, and to have that space, where it felt like every year there was things that would come up in the student staff, because we typically had almost a whole new group every year with some people. But they were kind of all, you know, sporadically throughout their career, so some would graduate. But it was kind of so predictable, like their identity development that would happen. Like, every year, by the end of the time I was working there, it was like, it's so predictable what they're going to do next and what sort of interactions they're going to have, because it's just part of human growth and part of figuring out who you are and how you work with other people. I think providing that for students generally, but then also for staff to figure out, student staff. I really liked that. I think being in the Dean of Students Office, it's a lot of kind of planning for the worst-case scenario. One thing I enjoyed, I think still serving the community is for me, I can take those feminist leadership skills that I've learned and developed and apply them in places, just like we were telling our student staff. Like, you're not going to work in a women's center forever, you can take this into your new job. I have been realizing like, “Oh, wait, like, I can take some of these things of thinking about the universe.” 19 We're working on like, my big project for a while has been student death plans. Like, what do we do if a student dies on campus? What do we do next? That is a very common thing for the Dean of Students Office at institutions to be very involved in. Or like if there's a mass casualty event or something happens. What is our response? I think even just bringing in some of the skills and values that I learned in the Women's Center into those conversations, to talk about different communities on campus and how they might react to something. I'm not giving very good examples, but I think about like, I'm doing such different work, but I can do it in the same ways. It feels kind of like that's an opportunity that many people who work in the cultural centers, and like the Women's Center, LGB—I want to keep calling it the Queer Resource Center. The LGBTQ Center—are now kind of forced in, right? In our new jobs, how do we still bring forth these values and these ideas, while following the law and not using certain words? That's hard to think about, but an opportunity. KH: You kind of mentioned this too. When you were part of the Women's Center, did you get to interact with the other cultural centers very much, and what types of things would you do? PZD: Yeah, pretty much for most of my time in the Women's Center, we had this Center for Multicultural Excellence, the LGBTQ center, and then us. We were kind of it, we were in one student affairs area for a while. We were all supervised by Enrique Roman. We got to participate in each other's events, kind of cross training each other. I think that there had not always been a super solid relationship between the Women's Center and the Center for Multicultural Excellence, which took a long time to heal and try to repair that and talk about intersectionality. How we could bring in talking about racism and racial justice into programs and how on the flip, like, they could bring in talking about gender and sexism into programs. We were working 20 pretty well together to do that, but really just focusing on building the relationships and just like showing up for each other's stuff. Being at events, being at programs and the affinity graduations. Whenever the Center for Multicultural Excellence kind of dissolved and became its own cultural centers, that was a little harder, just organizational, like logistically to keep being super involved, because they didn't have space and for a long time didn't have staff. There was a couple that were staffed and we still tried to do programing together. We were really excited for the EDI division; had so much change. The Women's Center was kind of half reporting to EDI and half reporting to Student Affairs, and we were trying to navigate that change, through EDI. But really since, when did that start, like January of 2021? So, it's been three years, but it felt like every few months something was changing, and like, we couldn't keep up. We tried to just maintain relationships with the coordinators that we knew there and with the students, and do a lot of work with student groups, out of the cultural centers, planning events together. We were doing like a mentoring program, trying to train them all specifically in violence prevention education. That was really important to the Women's Center, especially as I think, the cultural centers like morphed and changed and everything was happening. We did see more students of color in more recent years start just hanging out in the Women's Center, because I think the hangout and safe spaces in the Center for Multicultural Excellence or other lounge spaces didn't feel the same way anymore. I think we were also more intentional about making sure that our programing and our resources were really intersectional. We were focused on like, racial justice too. In a way, I think we kind of became a center for a lot of people when they lost one. Then we were trying to help build up cultural centers, and now we're here. 21 KH: Yes, we're here. Could you share some of your favorite memories from either just the Women's Center or any of the centers? PZD: I have a couple different ones. Whenever like, at the end of the year or the end of the semester, we would have these celebrations. It was very silly, but it was always so cathartic. We would go play laser tag with each other, which feels totally not right. Like, every time I tell that to people, they're like, “You're gonna play—?” I was like, “Yes, I know we're pretty against violence, but like it's very cathartic to play laser tag and do bumper cars and that's all very nice.” It was really stuff like that with the students. We went on a retreat once up in Park City. I think that there is a particular type of student that is drawn to Women's Center, like queer and feminist spaces at this point in time, and they more often than not are really into tarot cards and crystals and witchy stuff. That is just like not my first inclination. They were constantly teaching us things about and like, can I read your cards for you? Or like they had this pendulum swinging thing where they were trying to guess what my baby would be when I was pregnant. I was like, put the pendulum away. Those things were really fun, and it seemed like every single student group, it was at some point in the year, they would all really get into crystals and be like, “Oh, we've discovered this whole other part of feminism, and it's called witchcraft.” I'm like, “Yeah, you're not the first. It's been around for centuries.” But it was fun to kind of see them progress in this just expanding a belief system. So much of kind of what I would tease them about, like the witchy, witchy woowoo stuff, it was really just about empowerment and growth and community. Then we kind of started to really lean into it, be like, “We'll do events and market them as like,” oh my gosh, I can't remember now. But it was an easy way to talk about, you know, some of the values and just the openness of thought and self- 22 empowerment that we were trying to teach, primarily women, but all students as leaders to have. That's like one of my favorite memories, and it just crosses every year. I'd be like, “Oh my God.” They're like, “Can we like, do a horoscope program?” It's like, “Yes, we've done that so many times.” But it was really fun, and I loved it because it also felt like that happened in every women's center I worked in. I remember my undergraduate women's center, our director being like, “I'm done with the witch stuff,” like that one time, and that was 15 years ago in a different state. I’m like, “Yeah, all right.” I loved that, I think it's so, so fun. I really enjoyed when I got to talk to Mary Jo LaTulippe. She's one of the founding people in the Women's Center. I know we have like, lots of historical documents and talk about that, but for the 40th anniversary, I just was calling staff that were listed, and she was on my list. I only had a phone number; I didn't have an email or anything. I just cold called her and was like, “Hey, we're doing 40th anniversary celebration. Can you tell me about your time at the Women's Center?” She was like, “Yeah, I'm going to be up there in a few weeks, how about we go out to lunch?” So, we went out to lunch, and then I had no idea, right, that she was one of—I didn't realize it at the time. She started talking about like, “Oh yeah, when me and Tony started the center.” I was like, “What?” She had such great stories about students, and things that really conflicted with the narrative that I had been told by other Weber people about the Women's Center before 2015. Often it was described as this kind of relief center outside of the church, and that if you weren't a white LDS mother it wasn't really as welcoming a place. That was the stereotype that was very openly given to Stephanie and I when we started, by staff and students. 23 To hear Mary Jo talk about like, the Women's Center in the 80s, and how they had support groups for students who were living with HIV and AIDS in the 80s. We would talk about that, and she'd be like, “Well, of course the administration didn't know we were doing it.” She talked about their secret lesbian support group that they had that also the administration didn't know about. It was really cool to hear her talk about that narrative that I've heard from so many different women’s centers across the country of like, starting as these student-led organizations that really provided spaces to talk about things other people weren't talking about. It was really cool to be like, “At Weber too? Like, really?” I would tell her, “There's nothing about that.” She's like, “Yeah, there's nothing about that. We didn't write it down. We did these things, and we didn't advertise it, and we didn't write it down.” I feel like every women’s center I know has a story about a secret drawer of cash, that like, you can use as a discretionary fund to help students. She talked about funding students who needed like, basic needs, and being able to get community partners to pay for things for students. That was really cool because it was kind of like this—I don't even know if she would call herself a feminist or anything, but at the time I was like, in my mind, Weber State's Women's Center had always kind of been an outlier in feminist circles. Then I was like, no, it wasn't. Just we hadn't talked to Mary Jo yet. Actually, I don't even know if she's still alive. I've tried to reach out to her a few times to see if she would do oral history stuff, and I haven't heard back, but she was pretty interesting to talk to. I know she had all sorts of opinions about other staff members, but I enjoyed it. KH: How have the cultural centers impacted or influenced you at your time at Weber? 24 PZD: I think as a whole it made me a more critical examiner of higher ed and administration, and I say that now. Like, I live in the Miller Admin Building, I know who I am. I am an administrator now. I think really still being a place where the students voices were heard and to listen to the students. I think that has been one of the most impactful things for me. I know I kind of teased about students too, we can get down on students as not being like mature or adults, but they are. They're also experts in their own lives and know what they need as students. I've really appreciated that. Even as the different cultural centers were forming and it was incredibly painful in some of those meetings and incredibly, for a lot of different reasons, like disorganized and plans changed a million times. But really just trying to keep the student voice at the center of that, I think, has taught me, no matter what we're doing, usually it's like, what are we missing here? It's like, oh the student voice. I think that's something that's really firmly rooted, especially with the other cultural centers. Being a white woman and being like, I don't know what the best way to do this cultural center model is. I don't know. I know how other schools have done it. But post 2020, does that even like, does that apply anymore? With all of the pandemic and racial justice stuff that's been brought to the surface, it felt like maybe we need to think of new and creative ways to develop cultural centers for students. I felt like we were just kind of getting into that and then had to stop. KH: If you are willing to share, what are your feelings about the closings of the cultural centers? PZD: It's frustrating. I think I saw it coming for a while with other states, watching. I know people who work in Texas, and kind of the whole year before seeing what they were going through at their pride centers and women's centers. Hearing the talk in NWSA. We went in October to Baltimore, to the National conference, and we were 25 talking with all the women's center folks who were there and just kind of being like, this is where we're headed. Just felt like day after day, we were getting emails on the Women's Center listserv about like, “Well, this center's closing and this center is closing and this one's getting renamed.” It felt like it was coming for sure, especially after, I think the bill the year before last, where they talked about defunding everything and then wanting to do the institutional audit. I was like, that's the first step, right? Like, they want to know how much money to then know. I feel pretty confident talking about this because like, I'm here personally, not as a university employee. Right? But it just felt like it was coming, the way I was hearing legislative talk, and the questioning of the DEI division and kind of the instability of it, and different conversations that I had with vice presidents and the president. I felt like it was pretty clear that they knew what the legislative intent was, and that they were already having those conversations with legislators. In January, when the bill was introduced, I was like, “But here it is.” It just happened so quickly. I was at a conference in early February for student conduct, and they were going through all the anti DEI laws across the country. They were like, “And in Utah gets the award for the most sweeping and fastest.” It was like, yeah. It just felt like it happened so quick and so many people didn't know. Then listening to the testimony and the legislation happened where they were saying like, “Oh, cultural centers won't close.” It was like, “Yeah, they wouldn't close, but if they exist, they're not going to exist in the way that they do now.” Like, that was very clear to me. When the University made decisions, and even just with the USHE guidance being released in the last few weeks like, it's right there. Cultural centers can exist as long as you don't offer students any support. It's like, what do you do, have an event and then say, “Bye, see you at the next movie? We can't do anything for you 26 in the meantime.” I know that it was an incredibly difficult decision for our administration to make the choice not to do that. To say, “No, we're going to continue providing support in this other way. We're not just going to have, like, empty promises and empty spaces.” We have a Cultural Center, but all they can do is show movies and invite speakers and not help students. Like, it has been really frustrating. I've felt like I've also had another layer of frustration that I'm like, when a lot of this was coming out across the school in like April, and people would call me and contact me. Even the last few weeks as there's been more articles published, I've had colleagues across the country reach out, past students. I'm like, “Where were you in January? I get that this is new and really upsetting, but like, I've processed and I'm trying to move a little forward. We needed you in January, not now.” That's what's been really frustrating, is it's like no one else was paying attention unless you were in it. We all saw it happening and unfolding, but it felt like at the time, like there just wasn't—now, like, the community is mobilized, right? Now people are wanting to talk about it all the time to me. I'm like, “Could've used you.” That's no fault on an individual, right? That's how systems are set up and how legislation is set up. So that, and it happened so quickly right alongside the bathroom bill for a reason. Like, it's not anybody's individual fault, but it is very frustrating that it’s happened exactly how it was probably supposed to happen. KH: I'm going to be honest; I haven't read the entire bill. So, what changes did House Bill 261 have on the cultural centers? PZD: Part of it is that they can't do specific training that's required for employees on cultural diversity, EDI topics, which is okay. The university wasn't doing any required training like that anyways. It also delineated that there can't be like, special services for special populations. So, any service had to be open to anybody. You could say, 27 theoretically, that anybody could come to a cultural center and receive the same support as another person, but like individualized support or activities for an identity wouldn't be able to happen. Right? Which you could argue like, our centers weren't doing that. They weren't excluding people. But the bill, in my reading of it, really laid out that if you're highlighting one group, then you are excluding everybody else without saying it. The USHE guidance that then came out kind of more explained. USHE provided guidance that there could be cultural centers still, but that they would have to be academic and educational in nature. Or you could have student success centers that worked individually to support all students. But cultural centers could no longer support students on that individual level. So, then universities have the choice, right? Do we go to the student success model where we can define that hopefully for ourselves and meet every student? Or do we have cultural centers that like, we don't provide support around? It really, well I feel like stripped the ability for students who share identities to meet with professional staff who share those identities in readily accessible places. Of course, we still have staff that are queer and trans and Bipoc staff here on campus. But we don't have a center, right? Unless the students know, they might not ever find a mentor that shares an identity with them. Unless they know like, very specifically where to look. Whereas like, a queer student could say, “Oh, the LGBT Resource Center, I bet they can help me.” Like, it was very clear, whereas now it's Student Success Center. I don't know what that means. I don't know if I can go there for help because I need a binder, or because I need access to testosterone, or I need to change my name or whatever. That's not clear in the way that like, “I bet somebody at the LGBT Center knows something about that,” right? 28 KH: If somebody was part of that community and just still works here, could they go to her and she could still help them? PZD: Yeah, on an individual level, yes, and still do programing and educational events around those topics; can still provide that assistance. There's just not like, the center anymore. There's not the space, there's not the, I think, the camaraderie. I think what I would hope in the new Student Success Center is that there can be a really intersectional approach to all of this, to all of these issues, and cross training between staff. Then it does become a place where all students feel like they can go to for support. You have to figure out how to do that through marketing and word of mouth. It's just so much easier if it just says Women's Center, Black Cultural Center, Hispanic Center. I think it makes it more difficult for students with those identities to find community. KH: How do you think students are reacting to the closing of the cultural centers? PZD: I don't think a lot of students know. I think the students who are very active within the centers know. I think there's students who don't know, and when they find out, they'll be like, “All right, didn't affect me.” I think that there will be students who will be surprised when they come back. The signage is down in the Union, right? Like, it doesn't say Women's Center anymore. I think it’ll surprise a lot of people, and I think students will have a lot of questions about like, “But I thought that that's not what the bill said.” Because that's what was repeated over and over and over again. It was like, the bill that was argued on the floor is not the bill that was signed. I think there's just not a lot of education about what the bill said, what the USHE guidance says, and why that USHE guidance is also so important. Now it's public, so I hope that helps. But I think people will be surprised and hurt. 29 I think one thing that I have been able to talk about, a lot of past students in the Women's Center have reached out. Not a lot, but about a dozen said, “What happens to the Women's Center? Did you all get fired?” Like, nobody got fired. Everybody has a job. Actually, everybody at the Women's Center has the same job that they had before. Because they're all Safe@Weber employees, except for Jessica Fisher, who has a new job. But all the Safe@Weber folks still do what they do. I don't know if they all individually believe that, but I do think that on paper at least, they have the same job, and they'll still provide victim services. They'll still provide violence prevention. Many of the past Women's Center student staff who have heard that have been like, “Okay, that makes me feel better at least. The rest of this sucks, but at least not everything has gone.” I don't know how students will really react in the fall. Students always surprise me. Usually I think that they can't anymore, and then—because people are always surprising. Like, I have to tell people—I don't have to, but I tell people all the time, “Students are people, and people are totally unpredictable, and also like completely predictable.” So, I don't know. I don't know what will happen. KH: You kind of already talked about this a little bit, but is there anything you want to add about how students will be helped or hindered under the restructured departments? PZD: I think that the help that they currently have will still be there. It'll just be how do you find it? How does Weber sustain it? Like right now, the Student Success Center, when you look at the web page, it looks very diverse. It looks very experienced with all different like, cultures and ways of life. But how do you retain diverse staff in this type of climate? What will it look like in five years? Will it be a generic center where none of them specialize in anything or in any type of support? That's the things I think about, that I worry. Like, the students will still get the same support right now 30 because we have those people there, but they're not going to live and retire here in this role. So, I do worry about the future and just trying to be ahead of it in marketing and directing students. Part of that requires, like, just all staff and faculty to know what's going on, and so many people still don't know. I'm like, “You're a grown, grown, grown adult. Like, you don't know what's going on? You work here.” I don't know, maybe I just know it because I was so in it. Right? Maybe the person who's not in it every day doesn't receive the same type of communication and all of that. But I think it will take a lot of other people at Weber stepping up, and in ways that they already have. We know not every like, queer, trans student out there went to the LGBTQ Resource Center. We know that students find mentors and role models and faculty in their other positions on campus. So, just thinking about how do then we support everybody on campus who might be like, “I didn't get in this job to do this, but now I am.” That's been something I've been thinking about a little bit, is just supporting staff and faculty to know where to send students if they can't help them. Right now it's like, community folks or Student Success Center, which I’m not even sure, are they're going to be in one space? Like, what's going on? I don't know. Is there a sign? I can be patient. It's only July 5th, or my gosh, July 9th? KH: Yup. Why is community important? PZD: I think it's what people are made for. Like, everybody needs community in some way, whether it's online or in-person. People who challenge them, but that they can also relate to. One of the things I think about in community a lot right now in my job is accountability. Someone “messes up,” how do we hold them in community in a restorative way, that they can be accountable to harm that they caused, but that everybody can learn and grow and heal? 31 I think when you're in college, at least for me, I was coming from where I lived in—I had grown up around a lot of different types of people in California. In Idaho was a super small town. Then I moved to Moscow and I was like, culture shock again. “It has a Walmart,” you know, “It's a big town.” “Like 20,000 people live here.” I was figuring out my own sexuality and coming out kind of just continuously through undergrad, and what got us through all of that was community. There's a whole bunch of things, like horrible things happen in people's lives, and community was what we could come together. I just think about like, I haven't quite flushed out this analogy or metaphor yet, before I use it more widely. In Moscow, there was this couple, Tabitha and Cathy, and they were a lesbian couple who ran a comic book shop. Every month they put on Tabby Cat Productions, which was like a local drag show. You paid like five bucks, maybe three/five, depending on if you were a student or not. It was upstairs in the Moose Lodge. So, like the Moose Fraternal—I don't even know what they did below us. It was a whole bunch of older guys at a bar like, wearing trucker hats and flannel. All these like, queer kids coming up the staircase and they'd be like, “All right, have fun at your drag show.” Like, it was just such a culture mesh of rural Idaho and then the college. I just remember those, they were not part of the university, but they were also like, just so much of the community. In that town, the university is just locked into the community in a way that you cannot separate the two. Like, just being there with students, I would see faculty and staff in the 21 and over section. It was separated by like a table, like set up a bar. I just remember being like, “That's Tracy, she's my Psychology professor,” and then be like, “Is she gay?” 32 Seeing that and seeing like, those models of how you could live in a way that was different than what was expected or told for you to be. That was just incredibly powerful for me as an 18-year-old who knew nothing and didn't even know who I was yet. I think that's the type of space and community. I always think about those drag shows when I think about even just cultural centers generally in higher education. That feeling of like, “Okay, I'm trying to figure this out, and here are all these other people that are trying to figure it out too, that are like me.” I think all students need that space in whatever way. I think sometimes you find that in the academic colleges where they're all interested in one discipline, and they're connected through research, and they're doing the same type of identity development and trying to figure out who they are as scholars, together. I think that's really powerful. It's okay to have different types of communities. It's okay to have the academic ones and the work ones and teams that work in—I don't want to use the library as an example, so I’ll use Campus Rec, because I know a lot about their team. They're really like, they are a team. They are Campus Rec employees and they have found that community together too. I'm not sure like, if we're already doing this with different communities, why can't we do it based off of culture or gender or sexuality? I just hope students who found their community there in those centers will find a place for it elsewhere. KH: What do you think we as individuals can do to foster relationships and meet the needs of the underserved communities at Weber? PZD: I think as faculty and staff, what I have really been trying to talk to folks about is get to know the student population. Know what students are here, what faculty and staff. Who are the underserved communities, what resources are available in the state and the county, and kind of sharing the load. It used to be like such a joke in 33 the Women's Center like, “Oh, it's a woman with a problem, send them to the Women's Center.” Right? Now it's like, everyone has to figure out what problems women have. It’s the same in the Dean of Students Office now. It's like, student has a problem, send them to the Dean of Students Office. That's not what we do, but it's okay. It is what we do. I think getting to know our populations on campus and then figuring out within their roles like, what they can do. What they can do is know resources, know organizations, know student organizations to connect to. That's really important, is just foster those connections. Like, we're not going to save students. We can't like, totally change all of our society overnight. But we can make those connections for the students and the staff, the employees that we're working with, that might need a community or might just need a direction to go in. That's really important to me. I talk about this a lot with mental health with faculty and staff. Not everyone needs to be a therapist, but it's nice to know that you're not just going to dump them off at the counseling center. Just know a little and be present with folks. That goes a long ways, and I'm going to be present with you, and I'm gonna help you get connected. I think that can be a true service to folks, and empowering to people too; that they can also create change and find resources in community themselves. I think talk to your legislators however you feel necessary. That's the one thing I am worried about next year right, is like, what does legislation look like next year? We've heard it from USHE, is that it's probably going to be more restrictive. I think just also keeping an eye on that, and paying attention and knowing what you can do as a Utah resident, and know who your legislators are. KH: Okay. Great. Is there anything else you'd like to share? PZD: No, I think I've talked a lot. For an hour and a half. Is that how long it was scheduled? 34 KH: Yes. PZD: Yeah. Cool. KH: Okay, well, thank you for being here. PZD: Yeah, thank you. 35