Oral History Program Maryan Shale Interviewed by Lorrie Rands 8 January 2025 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Maryan Shale Interviewed by Lorrie Rands 8 January 2025 Copyright © 2025 by Weber State University, Stewart Library Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description Connecting Weber: History of the Cultural Centers oral history project documents the memories and history of the various cultural centers that were open at Weber State University. These centers included the Multicultural Center (later called the Center for Belonging & Cultural Engagement), Women's Center, Native American Cultural Center, Asian American and Pacific Islander Cultural Center, Pan-Asian Cultural Center, Black Cultural Center, and the LGBTQ Resource Center. The centers were closed in July 2024 due to state legislation. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Shale, Maryan, an oral history by Lorrie Rands, 8 January 2025, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, Special Collections and University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Maryan Shale conducted by Lorrie Rands on January 8, 2025 in the Stewart Library. Raegan Baird, the video technician, is also present. Shale discusses her family’s refugee background, her education in health care, and how her experiences led to her becoming the program manager for Weber State’s Black Cultural Center. She also discusses the impact of the closing of the cultural centers. LR: Today is January 8, 2025. So weird saying 2025. We are doing an oral history interview with Maryan Shale in the Stewart Library for the Connecting Weber oral history project. I'm Lorrie Rands conducting and Raegan Baird is on the camera. All right. Maryan, thank you so much for your willingness to share and talk about the cultural centers here on campus. Let's just jump in with when and where you were born? MS: Yeah, thank you all for having me. Conducting these histories is really important. So, I was born—oh you need like a year? LR: Whatever you want to share. MS: I was born a few years ago [laughing]. I was born in Dadaab, Kenya. It's a refugee camp in Kenya. When? I would say early 2000. LR: Would you say that the name of the place again? MS: Dadaab. [Da-dahb] LR: Dadaab? [Da-dop] MS: Yeah, Dadaab. D-A-D-A-A-B, Kenya. LR: I just want to make sure… MS: Yeah. even if you search it up, it's right there. 1 LR: Okay, cool, it's searchable. MS: Yep, Dadaab. [Shows cell phone] Like that. LR: Oh, okay, I was not even close. MS: So, it's in Garissa County. But yeah, that was where I was born. LR: Okay. Were you raised in Kenya? MS: My family came to the United States in 2004, and we initially were placed in San Diego, California, so that's where I spent most of my childhood. Then we came here to Salt Lake City, Utah in 2010, I believe. LR: Okay, so growing up in San Diego, what are some of your memories of that? MS: Oh, the beach. I don't know. I mean, I was definitely a bit younger, but I do recall, you know, we spent a lot of time with the neighbors. My grandma used to take in a lot of, like, I don't want to say children, but we used to have friends that would follow us after school when we got off, and their parents would probably be working. So, my grandma would just, you know, be feeding all of us. We’d just be hanging out with the other students after school and just spending time. The beach is definitely one of them, and SeaWorld. LR: Okay. I'm curious if you have memories of—you mentioned you were placed in San Diego. Do you have memories of what that was…? MS: The area or anything? Yes. I actually was fortunate. Because my family came with the aid of, I believe it was UNCHR [United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees]. I can double check that later. But there was a lot of individuals helping us. I know that I was in Head Start when I was back there, so that was an opportunity that we were given. I went to San Miguel Elementary. I do know that 2 my mom was like one of the few individuals at the time who knew how to drive a car, so she, you know, got us around with her car. But we were in the Chula Vista area. I remember we lived on Washington Street, something like that. LR: Okay. What were some of the ways that your family tried to keep your culture? MS: I mean, by speaking to us in the language. I'm definitely fluent in my language, it's called Maay Maay. So, I speak Maay Maay. Maay Maay is really just the language that came out of the melting pot that was the camps. So, at the refugee camps, you know, you had people that were fleeing war from Somalia, which my family was. They were fleeing the Somali war, the civil war. There was individuals from Sudan, there's individuals from Ethiopia, and even some Middle Eastern. So, my language, you know, it's really just like a mixture of like Swahili, Somali and even Arabic at times. Whenever we say certain things, it can kind of be like, “Oh, we have something similar like that in my language.” I’m like, “Yeah,” ‘cause, you know, I guess that's how it was made. LR: That's really fascinating. What are some other things that you recall? MS: I mean, aside from the food, I think our family really just did their best to stick together. Again, they're refugees to America. They didn't know much. They didn't speak English. Our mom was in school, but she didn't complete high school. But my mom had me at the age of 14, so when she came to America, she was just an 18-year-old with two kids. I just remember them working in housekeeping and us spending a lot of time with my grandmother. LR: Okay. So, what—I know we're going through this really quick. MS: Oh no, you're fine. 3 LR: But what brought you to Utah? MS: As we all know now, San Diego is really expensive, and our family was growing, and there was more like aid and support for us here in Utah. So, my family came here with the help of, looking back, I believe the LDS church, even though we're not Mormon. I believe [it was] just through aid groups. For example, I think it's called the Catholic Community Center down here, they helped us a lot. The LDS church helped my family a lot. It was really just following aid and like, you know, resources. That's what brought us here. I believe housing, Section 8 or like— yeah, so that's what brought us here, following aid. LR: You're talking about your family. What did that look like? MS: My family is my mother, single mother. My parents separated when I was—they had to separate because my father was still back in the camps. My mom had to just leave because, you know, we were our family unit. In the camps it’s like units and families. So, my mother and my grandparents were in one unit, so they got picked. It's kind of like a lottery, like you win to come to America in a way. Your family gets picked, so now you get to come to America type of style thing that they had back in 2004. My family was placed in San Diego. But then when my father's family was coming, they got put in Texas, so then they couldn't do the distance. They weren't sure, like they just don't know how to navigate the U.S. and traveling and things like that. So, physically, when I talk about my family it’s my mother, my sister at the time, and my little brother, and then my grandparents and then my aunts and uncles. 4 LR: That's interesting. So, do you—and like I said, if you don't want to answer any questions, you don't have to. But do you—were you able—? I can't talk. MS: You're fine. LR: I have too many questions in my head, so I'm trying to separate them out. Coming here without your father, was there like this hope that eventually you'd all be together? MS: Yes, of course. Yeah. LR: Okay. Then after, once that reality was no longer there, once he comes to Texas, I don't know what that timeline was like. How long…? MS: A year or two after. LR: Okay. So, once he's in the United States and it's like, “No this isn't going to work,” was there this hope that perhaps maybe you'd be able to have that complete unit again? I'm not really asking an open-ended question here, but has that changed? Do you have a relationship with or were you ever able to have some sort of a reckoning, a coming back together? MS: Yes, we definitely were able to have that I think as I got a little bit older, because I was fairly young when all of this was happening. But, you know, as I kind of reached my teen years and I was able to really take in what's really happening; because you don't really know how affected you are or how impacted you are by not having a relationship with a parent until there's like, for example, when I got to I think it was probably like middle school, high school, where I started noticing, “Oh, it would be cool if I had a father.” 5 But I believe just like initially it was through phone calls where we were able to kind of like reconcile, because my mom ended up—she has a boyfriend or like, you know, fiancée or whatever you can say, that kind of played a father role in our life; even while keeping it in mind that, yes, we're not his kids and stuff like that. But yeah, I was able to reconcile with my dad, and it was nice. I don't really blame anybody or anything for the situation, because I know when they were leaving each other it was out of love. It was just a matter of, like, in the current moment in time, there's so many barriers like financial and access transportation-wise for them to have a marriage if he came to America. LR: Okay, that makes sense. Thank you— MS: Of course. LR: —For being patient with me, as I figured out that. MS: Oh no, you’re fine. LR: So, coming from San Diego to Utah, what are some of the differences that you noticed? MS: Okay. So, in California, honestly, everything—and I did not realize there was a huge difference until I got to Utah. Aside from like scenery and, you know, geographical differences, it was definitely a culture shock seeing a lot more white people than I did Black people or Africans or just people of color. Again, I never even really noticed these things until I'm in these spaces, and it's like, okay, now I'm like the only person in the room, is when I started to notice. “Okay, I'm the only person in like—I'm like seven out of like 400 students at this school.” Like, 6 “Whoa.” That's when I started to notice all the cultural differences here and so forth. LR: So, you were about 14 when you moved here? No. MS: Probably younger. LR: Yeah. You were younger. Six? You were 10. MS: Ten. LR: When you moved here. MS: Yes. LR: That means—I can do math. So, you're finishing up elementary school here in Salt Lake? MS: Yes. LR: What was it like moving into then junior high? Which is never fun for anyone. MS: I mean, you know, a lot of questions like, “Hey, why do you wear that thing on your head?” It was just so—I’m just like, “Oh, okay,” you know, and not really even like having answers to that, because I always knew just growing up in my house that, like, you just cover up. Even though I knew it had something to do with my religion, I didn't really understand the depth of it or what it meant. So, whenever people would just ask me, “Do you get hot under there?” I'm just like, “What are you saying?” But you know, things like that where just like, “Okay.” But the transition—I would say you don't notice these things until somebody else points it out that you're different from everybody else. I think middle school is not easy for anybody, but that's definitely the time frame that I 7 started to feel like, “Okay, I want to do something with my life,” because around that time, I was picking up more English; that's when my family needed me to be like an interpreter for, you know, hospital visits and stuff like that. So, I noticed that the more that I went to school or the more I kept excelling that I needed to support my family even more. LR: So, you found education to be that way to support your family? MS: Yes. LR: Okay. Where at in Salt Lake did you live? MS: First we lived in just regular Salt Lake down by like, you know the Red Lion Hotel? That's where we initially were at when I was in like fourth, fifth grade. Then we eventually ended up moving to Rose Park. LR: Okay. I'm not as familiar with Rose Park now. I knew it back a long time ago. MS: Rose Park is just honestly probably considered the poorer parts of Utah, like that Rose Park, Glendale area. LR: Right. So, where did you go to high school? MS: I went to high school in Kearns. Kearns High School. LR: Okay, so that's a long… MS: Yeah. LR: Was there a reason for that? MS: Yes. So, as we know, we're in Rose Park. Then my mother, she was on the, I guess like the waitlist for housing. Then with that we were able to move, because like our family was still growing. Now my mom probably has about—I think it's about like four or five of us, maybe even six kids at this time, and we're at a two- 8 bedroom apartment in Rose Park. But then by the time that it was for me to go to high school, which is like 2014, we found a home in Kearns. LR: Okay, that makes more sense. What were some of your goals in high school in order to best support your family and things like that? MS: I mean, like, I didn't even know. I always just thought getting a degree was enough, you know? I just thought, okay, once I get a diploma, I'll be able to work. But none of that really—I didn't have, like, a career attached to it. I didn't have anything attached to it until my grandpa passed away from prostate cancer in 2014. It was like November 2014. When he passed away and like, you know, again, being that younger child who's doing the hospital visits and interpreting, I did notice like what I'm interpreting and what the doctors are saying are kind of like, “Oh, if you all had brought him in sooner.” I was like, okay, I started to pick up on the discrepancies and disparities of health and access and really like the cultural barriers that come into receiving health care; because although the physicians were saying one thing, it's like my family wasn't really receptive of it. They have like this culture approach to everything where it's like “God will provide, God will provide,” and then they don't like Western medicine. So, it's kind of like, “Hey, but you do need to take this person to doctor visits, and it's okay to trust a doctor.” So, noticing those conversations happening is what made me go into or want to pursue healthcare. 9 LR: Okay. You've kind of already answered this, but I'm going to ask it anyway. Were you encouraged to receive an education past high school, or was it something you just wanted to do? MS: Well, my mother encouraged us to always go to school and she at least instilled in me and my sister, since we are the oldest, that the more you are educated, the more you can help your community and your family. So, while I was in high school not knowing what I wanted to do, and then my grandpa passing away and then figuring I wanted to be in health care; that's when I started to be in those courses or just like doing more than like the basic education requirements. I realized that to be either like a doctor or nurse or whatever, you do need more schooling than high school or than a diploma. So, that's when I was like, “I do want to go to college.” My mom was like, “Great. Let's see how far this can go.” LR: Did you have an idea of where you wanted to go? MS: The U. I've always wanted to go to the University of Utah. I didn't know, but I always thought there was only like—I always thought college was just like, probably three or four colleges in the entire world. I didn't know there was so many until I got to the University of Utah. I’m just like, “What? I could have went to Stanford?” You know? So, I didn't really know. LR: What year did you start at the U? MS: I started in 2018. LR: Did you have a major in mind when you started? 10 MS: I actually switched my major, like, three or four times over the summer, and then even when I got to the, is it orientation? I think I wanted to do biomedical engineering, then I went to nursing, and then I went undeclared. Yeah. I don't know, but I knew it was health care. That's what I knew; it was just definitely health care. LR: So, what ended up being your major? MS: My major ended up being health society and policy. It's an interdisciplinary major, so that— LR: Interesting. MS: I know. I didn't even know they had it. That's why I love the University of Utah. Because I was like, “Oh my God, it's too much biology.” Like, I didn't want to do biology or chemistry. The first year is—I really feel like everybody should just go undeclared the first year, unless you're, like, passionate about something. Because then finding out my sophomore year, it was actually when I was involved in like Black Student Union, that the vice president, or I think she was like the secretary was like, “Oh, I'm majoring in health society and policy.” I'm like, “What is that?” Then I went and met with my advisor, and then I was able to go into that or learn more. I was like, “I love it.” LR: Okay. When you were at the U, you already mentioned the Black Student Union, what are some of the programs, or…? MS: Like involvements? LR: Yes. 11 MS: I was probably involved in everything. I was involved in Black Student Union. I was involved in an African Student Union. A lot of the student clubs, really. Like Muslim Student Association. I was also in student government. I was the vice president of student relations. I even ended up in housing, like the Residential Housing Association. I was just jumping everywhere. LR: How do you think that involvement shaped you as an individual? MS: I feel like being involved allowed me to see more. Like it made me more passionate, or like show more compassion to other individuals from many different backgrounds. It definitely made me feel more protective of the African and like Black community altogether. I’ll say it definitely made me more resilient and really—when it comes to like [advocacy]—I feel like whenever you're in those spaces and like, conversations are being had, you almost want more people to hear, “Hey, there's issues here. There's also great things happening, but there's also issues.” So, it really helped me to be a connector and somebody that's an advocate. LR: That’s really cool. So, when you graduated from the U, what was your career path? MS: When I graduated from the U, I was like, “Okay.” I wanted to work in health, like the Utah Health Policy Project and stuff, but I ended up helping a nonprofit while I was kind of figuring things out. But where I was physically working when I graduated—because it's really hard to find a job after you graduate, and nobody tells you that. 12 But that unfortunately was around COVID, and the only health care jobs really, unless you were already working there, was like home care or being a home health aide. So, I did that the majority of COVID. Then, having that experience, I was hired at a dialysis clinic, where the majority of individuals are a bit on the older side. I learned how to use a 17-gauge needle and stick it into people, and I never thought I'd do that. But yeah, that was like the first I seen blood all over the floor, like people spilling out. It was interesting. LR: I'll bet. Wow. So many questions, and we're running out of time. So, what eventually… Okay, so you graduated in about 20—? MS: Probably like two years ago. LR: So, 2022? MS: 2022, yes. LR: So, you're navigating these spaces. What brought you to Weber State? MS: What brought me to Weber State was the job. I know that, for me, there's two populations that I care about or that have really impacted my journey. It's my community and where I come from. Obviously, that's like the Black and African community, but then also health care, because that is what I'm passionate about. Like, you know, my story does begin with my grandpa passing away and being able to kind of help others really take the health care system a little bit seriously or just being that person that can bridge those gaps and those disparities that happen in the health care field. So, when I saw the job at Weber State for the—it said like Black Cultural Center program manager, I was like, “Oh, this is awesome,” because when I was 13 at the University of Utah, I was heavily involved with the University of Utah's Black Cultural Center and, you know, helping. I was there when it was even open to the public and the ribbon cutting and stuff. I was always there at that center. So, I was like, “Wow. Well, I have a lot of experience.” I had a lot of experiences there at a black cultural center, but also seeing how the program impacts people, because I feel like I am a—I always call myself the—I'm a product of resources, like from my whole entire life, from being selected from the Kenya camps, brought to California, to Utah. It's like we always are receiving, receiving. So, when I saw this job, I'm like, “Okay, it's kind of my turn to kind of give these students the type of experience that I've had,” you know, as a first-generation college student, refugee background, etcetera. So, I saw the job and I liked it, and everybody’s like, “Wait, you like health care.” I'm like, “Yes, but this is also another part of me that I'm really invested in.” LR: Okay, so were you hired before the center was finished? MS: I was hired I believe—so, the Black Cultural Center was open in like fall of 2023, but I didn't get here until spring of 2024. So, I got here last year around this time actually. LR: Okay. That makes sense. MS: Yeah. So, I was originally hired as the Black Cultural Center program manager. That was my title coming in. LR: When you came in, did you—I know you said you had a lot of experience with your involvement at the U, but did you feel like—what is the question here? You 14 kind of answered it a little bit. Everyone was saying, “But you love health care;” did you feel like you were giving something up? MS: No. I didn't feel like that. Well, and this is probably something I forgot to mention, too. When I graduated from the U, I started working volunteer-wise with a nonprofit called Future Scholars of Africa. So, while I was working at the dialysis clinic, on my free time I was also working as their director of governance or something for this nonprofit here in Utah. So, my passion has always been working with this population. Even in health care, I still do plan to work with this population. So, it's like whether I do that through higher ed or through like physically working at a clinic, it's still—I don't think I'm giving anything up. LR: Okay. So, you come to Weber State in the spring, and there's already rumblings that something's coming and it's a possibility that these centers might be shut down. MS: Right. LR: How did you navigate those feelings? Did you feel like, you know, “What am I doing?” MS: I feel like I had every thought and feeling that you could possibly experience. Especially since the conversations were definitely like, you know, you hear it kind of sporadic, like around, and whenever you go to administration or whoever they’re like, “Oh, it's okay.” You know, you're kind of just being told, “No, we'll just see until the session is over up there at the Capitol.” I’m kind of like, “Okay.” But a part of me really was like, I was really just— what's the word, is it confused? I would say I was really disappointed. That was 15 like the number one emotion all the time, and it was really frustrating because I didn't know who I was disappointed with. I didn't know if my disappointment was with administration, or if it was with the entire state of Utah, if it's with the individuals who spoke at the sessions and shared an experience. But it's like, hey, this can go both ways. You're talking about an experience. It's not factual. Even if you are, like, I don't know. I wish there was more experiences sought out, because there's individuals like me who have positive experiences coming out of a cultural center. So, I'm like, why wasn't I called to talk? I don't know if I was disappointed with, like, I don't know, just even the community. Like, why are y’all not fighting this, you know? So, it was just a lot of, like, man, I can't believe we're just moving backwards after taking so many steps. I was disappointed with the media, everybody. I was just like, “Wow, not a great day,” every day until like August or July. LR: You've come to Weber State, you see the writing on the wall, because that's not long after they start the session that HB261 becomes a reality. How do you navigate that as the program director for the Black Cultural Center? How do you navigate this reality of this is going to go into place? With that, were you given the opportunity to sit in on the meetings to determine how things would move forward? MS: To answer the first question, navigating that was very difficult because when I came, I came like January, and right after January is Black History Month. So, I came like January 17, and within two weeks I have to put on a very successful 16 Black History Month. So, I'm just like, “Ah!” Black History Month comes together, and then we officially decide to do the open house February 28. Now it's March, so now we kind of are coming off this high from Black History Month and the open house, which is like a lot of people showed up and it was great. Now it's March and conversations are still happening, but nothing's being said, you know. I think the most difficult part was the students who you start to kind of see their faith restored back into the institution and us staff members, and start to see like more students utilizing the space and people are coming together, now they know my name, and things are moving forward. So, when we were told—what was it? The session… LR: The legislative session? MS: The legislative session, yeah. When the legislative session was over, I can’t remember when. I think it was like April? LR: I don't remember either. MS: Well, when the legislative session was over and it was kind of like, “Yep, this is officially—” We’re like, “Okay. All right.” We all kind of just thought, okay, maybe it's just like name changes and we're not going to lose a physical space. That was my and a lot of people's beliefs, that, okay, we're not losing space, we're kind of just losing the names of things and maybe a few programs here and there, but not physical space. Because a space is really like—you know, people say you can make a home out of anything. But finding that out that we are kind of losing the space altogether, and it's not just being renamed, and it's not just bringing in 17 other individuals, right? Because the space is like, this is the Black Cultural Center, so we kind of just assume maybe it'll still be the Black Cultural Center, it’ll still be a Black space where we're opening it up to more individuals. So, we were only in one conversation with administration that was kind of saying, “We're exploring options.” That was the only conversation that we were in, or that I was in as a program manager. That was, you know, President Brad Mortensen, like everybody was in this room, and we’re kind of just talking about the reality of this bill, and we're just talking about options, like, “Okay, maybe we can change the names, maybe we can do X, Y and Z.” So, from that one conversation, everything else that has happened after were decisions that were made, and then we just kind of found out after the fact. LR: Okay. So, what were some of your feelings when you realized that your perspective was really not taken into account when it came to the closing of the center? MS: I felt like there was a lack of transparency, and not just for me, right? Because I get to go home past 5 p.m. and kind of just be like, “Dang.” I can just go on Indeed and look for a new job. But I've already made so many attachments and promises and stuff to students who don't go home and can't just clock out of their educational experience because a bill was passed. So, I was just like, “Wow. How is it that individuals who aren't student facing, who aren't talking to these students one on one, making these decisions for us to be the bearer of bad news to these students that we make these promises to?” 18 I definitely felt like the rug was pulled right from underneath me. I was just really frustrated. I honestly did not feel like coming into work, because now we've already kind of transitioned into the summer, and the summer there are no students to even understand what they feel, or students to even realize the impact until they come. So, that's one of my biggest fears too. Like, whoa, you're making these decisions and there are no students here to kind of tell you, “No, that hurts us. No, this is not great.” So, students just basically have to come back to a completely different set of new rules when they come back in the fall semester to a whole new center. There's no physical space anymore. The person that you were attaching this experience to, or this—what's the word? I don't know. This attribute. Like, she's a Black Cultural Center this, or she's the BSU advisor—because I was also the BSU advisor just with my role being the Black Cultural Center program manager. It's like they just come to new everything. So, it's kind of like, wow. Now we also have to deal with this. Even though we, as staff, have time to accept this over the summer, now students have to open up that wound and we have to kind of talk through it with them too, because they're now just understanding, “Whoa, I don't have scholarships that are for people like me anymore. I don't have a space where I could just come and talk to or share these experiences with people.” LR: So, as you transitioned, as summer transitioned to fall, what were the students saying? Were you privy to those conversations, and if so, how did the students feel? 19 MS: They were like, “Why are we getting rid of something that just got opened?” I'm like, “Good question.” They were just kind of like, “Wait, so does this mean you're getting fired?” I’m like, “I honestly don't know. I was told my job was safe, but… [shrugs]” Because that was also a concern. They’re like, “Are you leaving?” I'm like, “No? Like, you know, I don't know yet.” The students were also just like, “So like, what happens to the center now? If it's no longer the BCC, what is it going to be now?” I didn't know that until maybe like July, when I kind of found out who would be going into the center. I was just told to take things down that were related to Black Cultural Center. Students were also just like—it was just a lot of they just did not know what was happening unless they were here for the summer. Because most of the students were kind of like, you know, they left and graduated in like April, May. So, then the students that were there for the summer, which is very little, maybe like six students, and maybe they're just student workers. Usually they're international students, because they're the ones that are here mostly. They were just like, [listing on fingers] “What's going on with your job? Are you still going to be here? Where is the center going to be? Why are they doing this?” and like, “What's going to happen?” But I didn't have all the answers to that question either. LR: How do you think the closing of the center has impacted students in a good and/or bad way? 20 MS: Let's see. Good way? I think it makes them more intentional about finding other resources. That's one thing. Like maybe if you are a go-getter, or if you kind of have some experience in navigating higher education, maybe you will start to be intentional about looking for resources and trying to find something. Bad? I mean, the students are scattered everywhere, and it does not help that we're literally in this little corner down on like, the less, I don’t know, poorly lit and lightly trafficked space. The Student Services Building, aside from, I don't know, maybe you needing to physically go to a specific office, nobody comes to that building. Like the Union, you're in there for food, maybe there's some classes in there, there's events in there. So, it was really nice that the Black Cultural Center was in an area where it's like, “Oh wow, look, representation. I can come there.” It was accessible. That's one of the things that I feel like even students don't see yet, or won't understand the full impact, that that's technically erasure. There's like—it's not even like the physical site—it's a space that was for you, and you remember being a space that you went to go have fun and have these cultural events there, is no longer there. It kind of just like—I don't know. I don't know what's going on. But the students that I met with since the center has closed, they don't know where their friends are. Or like, “Hey, where’s so-and-so that used to come by?” I'm like, “I'm not sure.” Students don't check their emails. I mean that's one thing. But I would say that community is something we have to rebuild again. It's like, you know, they don't have a sense of community anymore, and emails can 21 only really get so far. Unless you are already a clique or unless you already have friends coming into the institution, your last few semesters it's hard to kind of build that community. There's no sense of community anymore within our area or demographic, I would say. LR: If a student is looking for any sort of community, if you will, how do they know where to go? MS: They would go to the Student Success Center, or any area on campus, I'm hoping, and they would specify what they need, and then they will be redirected if their needs apply. Because as a student, I can't just go, “Hey, are there any Black people here?” I feel like a lot of people would probably be offended by that question or wouldn't even know how to answer that. I don't know. When you're going to find community, it's not something that you are like actively looking for. It’s something that you really fall into or you kind of stumble upon. You can stumble upon community. Like somebody invites you to this event one day, and then you have fun and maybe you meet a friend or two, and then you want to come back, and then you bring those same two friends, and then maybe somebody—I feel like that's kind of how we build community around here. There's no initial point of contact. It is definitely—it's not impossible, but a student can find us, not by title, but I would say around. Because I can't just see a student and be like, “Hey, you look a certain way or you're a certain race, would you be interested in this event or would you be interested in this club?” I can't do that. That's breaking the law. Even if I know or can see with my own two eyes. 22 So, it definitely has been hard, you know, because there’s students that I see, and I'm just like, “Man, that’d have been great if they were at this event, or this event would have been beneficial for them,” that I can't necessarily like actively reach out to. But I send out emails to students all the time with just the resources from our center and resources in the community, and they show up. They show up. LR: You keep mentioning community; why is community important? MS: Community is important because you feel like you can—when you have community, you can get things done. Not only just educational things or your classwork or whatever. Community helps boost morale. It helps shape you as an individual, your goals, your values, you know. I think it just helps you learn more about the rest of the United States and other globe's nations. Because if you're not really familiar, or if you're not really that good talking to others and so forth, there's going to come a time and a place where you meet an individual and it's probably not going to be the best interaction if you aren’t really open and willing to learn. LR: Last question. What can we do as individuals to foster relationships and better serve the underserved communities here at Weber? MS: I think we need to just take a step back and consider who's at the table, who's missing at the table, whose experience is not being heard, and recognize that even if there is more than like 15, 20, even a trillion experiences, that each one does matter. That's how we can move forward and make decisions that can help the underserved communities. When you know how to help underserved 23 populations, it makes it easier to apply those practices to larger or normally served populations or communities. But I feel like it's okay to go back to the drawing board if you did something incorrectly, hold yourself accountable, be transparent about the right and the wrongs, and do things a different way. I definitely think like even with now, we got rid of the centers and so forth, but if we recognize that, “Oh man, we made a mistake,” okay, we can come out and say, “We made a mistake by closing down these centers. We need to go back to the drawing board and talk to those individuals that were missing initially in the conversations, see where we can compromise and meet, see who else we need to bring in, and move from there.” I think that's like the only thing we can do. But fostering relationships now, post closure of centers, I think just being open minded and showing up for one another, even if we don't know much about that culture or that individual. If you just kind of keep yourself in like one area or one specific community, it's hard to kind of, I don't know, what was the word? I just lost it. I forgot what I just said. You need to branch out. You know, I would just say, now that we don't really have centers that are tying us together, it's really important to just show up for everybody that is different from you, regardless of their race, their sexual orientation, being first gen or not, or just like being a robotics person, you know, things like that. Just keep trying to learn more about others. LR: I absolutely love, love your last statement. That's like going to go on a billboard. MS: [Laughing] That's funny. 24 LR: So, thank you so much for your willingness to share. What I'm going to do is ask, when we send you the transcript, if you have anything else you want to add, please add it. This has been amazing. For me, it's been one of the best perspectives that I've—[To Raegan] Would you agree? RB: Yeah. LR: It's been fantastic. I really appreciate your willingness to share. MS: Thank you. You say that to everybody [laughs]. LR: I really don't. So, thank you. I know you have to go, but I wanted to read this, because it made me want to strangle this person. One of my really close friends, her brother-in-law is in the Utah State Legislature, so I'm sharing with her everything that's happening. She's like, “Well that's not what the law was supposed to do.” She actually sent him a text and said, “Hey, this is what's actually happening.” He responded to her. “Your friend is mostly incorrect. HB261 does not apply to student clubs on campus unless the club is integrated into being part of the school.” MS: So, that’s registered or non-registered, okay. LR: Then he says, “Students are able to create clubs and express themselves, but the goal of the bill was not to have schools consider a student's race on receiving added help or services. Instead, the DEI Office was replaced with the Student Success Office to focus on uplifting all students regardless of race. However, you can still have local clubs,” yadda, yadda, yadda. 25 I’m like, dude, you're not living it. You're spilling words. You're not actually in the trenches seeing what's happening. Your community is not being erased. MS: Yeah, it’s that whole thing with intent over impact, like the intention—and I totally get the intent here, you know, not just giving—not just saying, because you are Black, that we shouldn’t give you more of or less of this. I understand that portion. But I'm like, but now, because the bill was written and so far open to interpretation, the individuals that are in power or are able to make decisions around here are not the same people who are living these experiences, or they're not the people that are being impacted by this bill. Generally, I see it, but I'm like, but you have to understand that almost every single institution in the state of Utah, the president is not a person of color, except for Utah Valley University I believe, and maybe Utah State. I believe they're both women. I could be wrong. It's just like, even with the student clubs, our students are registered, but now we can't sponsor them. So, we can't necessarily help them and say, “Hey, we support this.” We can't even—like the students are just on their own, which is the complete opposite of what I'm assuming their intent was. So, it's like, yeah, maybe you can say one thing, but the people that are interpreting all of this are not student facing. I would understand if this bill came from the bottom up, you know, maybe with students that felt like, you know what, we're not receiving as much aid, or we're not getting as much resources as the Black students do, or students in the Native American clubs and et cetera, or in this demographic. But because it’s coming from legislation and down, it just makes no sense whatsoever. I'm like, you don't even work with these students. 26 You don't talk to them. Administration also doesn't talk to students aside from being like, “Hey, great, good job. You're doing so well, continue and make Weber proud.” Those students that need to be spoken to are not being retained at these institutions. They're not excelling at these institutions, because they don't have the luxury of just going to school. They have to deal with other crap, like paying for school, figuring out where are you going to sleep and things like that, before they can even focus on their classes and before they can excel those classes to be in leadership roles, and be in leadership roles to talk to administration. So, yeah, it's one big process. I, as a student, because I'm like, I guess you can say I'm fairly new as a student from the University of Utah, who was always in conversation with administration because I was in student government, I was in BSU, etcetera. I understand there's red tape all the time, but it's like, come on, why does it always have to stop there, you know? Yeah, you say a lot, but not a lot gets done, and even if you do, you're not there to experience it. So yeah, all my things that I advocated for when I was a sophomore are just barely getting implemented now. LR: Well, thank you so much. MS: Of course. Thank you. LR: I'm so appreciative. I'm sorry that I kept you here longer. MS: You're fine. I mean, I'm all good there. It's fine. LR: I just appreciate your perspective. MS: Thank you. 27