Oral History Program Rick Winn Interviewed by Alyssa Kammerman 14 April 2021 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Rick Winn Interviewed by Alyssa Kammerman 14 April 2021 Copyright © 2025 by Weber State University, Stewart Library Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description The Hill/DDO’95 oral history project documents the 1995 and 2005 Base Realignment and Closure (BRAC) process and its impact on Utah. In 1993, rumors started to circulate that Hill Air Force Base and Defense Depot Ogden (DDO) would be closed by the 1995 round of BRAC, causing state officials, local government, and local grassroots lobbying group, Hill/DDO’95, to spring into action to save Utah’s military installations from closure or realignment to other facilities. This project includes interviews from a wide range of players, from congressmen, state officials, members of Hill/DDO’95, and the civilian employees of Hill Air Force Base and (DDO). Their accounts describe the process of fighting for the base, the closure of DDO, the formation of the Utah Defense Alliance (UDA) and Military Installation Development Authority (MIDA) from the Hill/DDO’95 group, and their fight to save Hill Air Force Base all over again in 2005. Also discussed is the importance of the F-35 aircraft and the “Falcon Hill” Enhanced Use Lease project to the prosperity of Hill Air Force Base and military relations in Utah. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Winn, Rick, an oral history by Alyssa Kammerman, 14 April 2021, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Abstract: This is an oral history interview with Rick Winn. It was conducted on April 14, 2021 at the Stewart Library. Winn speaks about his experience working at DDO from 1972-1997, as well as with the BRAC rounds from 1995-2005. The interviewer is Alyssa Kammerman. Also present is Sarah Langsdon. AK: Today is April 14, 2021. We are visiting with Rick Winn, speaking about the BRAC 1995 project. My name is Alyssa Kammerman and I'll be conducting the interview, and on the camera with me is Sarah Langsdon. So, just starting out, Rick, I just wanted to ask a little bit about your time at DDO, how long you worked there, and what positions you held? RW: Okay, well, I started in December of 1972. That was shortly after I discharged from the Air Force. Actually, started out at IRS and as a temporary 700-hour appointment, GS-1, and then moved over to DDO under the Veterans Readjustment Act. I was there until the closing, ‘97. Then even after the official closing, we still had some duties to get rid of equipment, bring it out to Hill, PDO, etcetera. Positions I held: I started out as a motor messenger vehicle operator. In other words, I delivered the tickets that went out to the warehouses to pick the stock for that day. That was a GS-2. Then I got a job as a packer, as a WG-5, and then moved into a warehousing job, warehouseman, that was a WG-5 and a forklift operator. Then moved over to civil engineers as an electrical apprentice and moved up the ranks to a journeyman electrician, and then took my test for a state electrical license. Moved up from there as an electronics technician, and then then put on a dual hat as a leader electrician. 1 AK: Okay. So, one of the reasons why I was curious to talk to you is I found a newspaper article that cited you as the one who spearheaded the individual employee efforts for saving DDO from BRAC. What were some of the individual employee efforts you initiated and what got you involved? RW: Well, what got me involved was when they called the meeting—it was held out to the Hill Air Force Base Air Force Museum, where all of the employees were called to go out there to accommodate all of them, it was large. That's where the announcement was made. Coming out of that, after the announcement, I was walking out to the parking lot and I was talking to some of the employees and I says, “You know, we ought to get a group together for unity and see if we can show some support for this. You know, let them know that employees want their jobs.” Apparently, the base commander was behind me and he overheard my conversation. So, the next day he called me into his office, and he said he'd overheard my conversation and he says, “I'm going to appoint you as the civilian morale and welfare chairman to spearhead this employee effort to show support for saving the depot.” So, that's how it started. From there, we made some announcements and I started recruiting some volunteers for that effort. A lot of people were involved with that effort. From there, we met quite often to come up with some support plans and things to do. It just kind of evolved from there. As time went on, why then there was some articles in the paper where the newspaper would come out, but they couldn't interview us on the base. We had to go across the street off of 12th street, not to 2 be on a government property. We had some "not for sale" signs out at the Depot; Standard-Examiner put that in the paper. AK: Interesting. I have quite a few questions from what you just said, but first of all, you said that they had you go to the Hill Air Force Base Museum for the announcement. I'm assuming that BRAC was coming, is that correct? RW: That's correct. That was the BRAC ‘95. AK: Okay, would you tell me a little about that? What do you remember them saying? RW: Well, what they indicated was that it was called the Base Realignment and Closure, and that DDO and Hill and Tooele was on that list, and that there would be BRAC committees coming to evaluate all three of us individually. It was quite a shock to all the employees because we'd heard about this, but we really didn't think we was ever going to be on that list, because we were the top DLA installation in the nation. Model installation. The technologies, the new ways of doing business. A lot of it was developed right there at DDO and then it went out to many of the other DLA installations across the country. So, we were pretty shocked about it AK: Was that General Lyles who announced that to you guys? Do you remember? SL: Or was it LeBarron? RW: It was LeBarron. AK: Okay, so then General LeBarron was the one who appointed you as the civilian morale and welfare chairman? RW: Yes. 3 AK: Okay. You said that you then recruited some volunteers to help you. Do you remember who some of the volunteers were? RW: Well, some of them were Monte Rudd—and he's deceased now. There was Pam Lanier, Cherie Watkins, I believe it was. Ed Navares. I don't know, there was a lot of people [laughs]. Been a long time, so a lot of the names have escaped me. AK: Yeah, I bet. It has been a long time. Did you guys work in conjunction with the Hill/DDO‘95 group, or were you kind of your own separate thing? RW: Well, in a small way we did, but mostly they had kind of their own group and they kind of had a different mindset than we did. It was pretty common knowledge that they didn't believe that they were going to end up being on the chopping block. So, their efforts were a lot different and maybe a little more low-key than what DDO was. AK: So, they were more Hill Air Force Base focused than DDO focused? RW: Yes. Plus, they had DLA employees at Hill at the time. Of course, they thought that they weren't going to be part of it, which was a shocker. Later on, when they found out that they was in there on the RIF with the rest of the employees, there was some tensions, because the government system on a RIF is they basically throw everybody's name in a hat and they say, “Okay, this series,” and the people are separated into their own occupations, then they go by seniority. But they also include such things as veteran status and things like that. So, you're in a numbering system, and you may even have more tenure than someone else, but they may have a 30-point Vet status which would put them above you. There 4 was a lot of employees that thought they were safe and they found theirselves being terminated. AK: I want to ask you a little bit about some of the support plans that you and your volunteers came up with? RW: Well, not only did we try to use the newspapers as much as possible to get community support, we believed that the services that supported the depot were also going to be affected if DDO closed. I mean, you had electrical contractors, plumbing, roofers, vendors, everything. It wasn't just the government employees that was going to be affected by this. So, we did try to get the community support. You know, the businesses, we was able to get many of them to put signs up in their windows and things like that. Then, of course, wearing the green. When we went down to the BRAC hearings, Ed Nevarez testified and said, “We all look like Kermit the Frog.” But we tried to do some fundraisers to pay for hats, t-shirts, that sort of thing. Employees would do cinnamon rolls on sales, and just some rallies that we would hope would catch the media's attention. That's about what we did. AK: Did you believe that the community support would help sway the BRAC commissioners' decision? RW: Well, we were hoping that that was what would happen. But honestly, I was in meetings a lot with Vickie McCall, Mayor Godfrey, Governor Leavitt. We even met with the congressman. It didn't take me long to come to the conclusion that they were more concerned with Hill and Tooele than they really were with DDO. Ogden City, as far as in the public view, they were all-in for saving the depot. But 5 at the same time, as soon as it was announced, they immediately got up with a commission to examine the possibility of getting DDO. Ultimately, that's what happened. In fact, there's an article that I Googled, by Tyrone Heath from Weber State here. He indicated that it was sold to Ogden City, but it wasn't. They gave it to Ogden City. Obviously, Ogden City is the benefactor now, and Boyer gets half of what Ogden City takes in on their property. So, it was economics. Certainly, they've replaced DDO with these businesses, but in most cases, I believe the wages that replaced the government workers were below what the money was coming in otherwise. But ‘course, being that the property was tax-exempt, it was government. Now they collect property taxes and everything else. We realized fairly early on that this was more of an exercise in politics than it really was in actually saving the depot, though we kept her hard in it. We was hoping that it wouldn't go under, but it ultimately did AK: We interviewed Joe Robles and he mentioned that there was some political bad blood between DLA and DDO. Did you see that at all? RW: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. For instance, DLA had their, I hate to say it, but their favorite bases, their political efforts, prior to going into the procedure, like Susquehanna and San Joaquin. You had Pennsylvania, you had Tracy in California. I mean, they're heavily political, and when you visit them, you would see that their installation was not even in the same class as DDO. DDO was better maintained, their buildings were better, their workforce was better. In fact, even the BRAC findings indicated that DDO had the best educated workforce 6 with the most higher work ethics. Didn't matter, because by consolidating bases like DLA did before the announcements of stuff, it kept them bases from being on the list, and they were inferior bases. I've been to all of the bases in my career, and I can tell you that they weren't anywhere near the quality as what DDO was. It was unfortunate that they didn't take into account the reasons why DDO was built in the location that it was. It was the hub of the West. It had access to the freeways, access to the rail systems. They could ship quicker and cheaper from DDO to California than what California could do within state. It’s just the way it was. I might add, for instance, they had a textile operation there at DDO where they had the uniforms, coats, you know, fabrics. It was selected because of the lower humidity here in Utah. First thing they did when they closed and they sent them textiles back east, put them in the warehouses, and the first thing that happened was in the first year, they all mildewed. It was ruined. AK: I had one question that I guess is a little out of order since we're still talking about the BRAC process, but I'm just curious. You had mentioned that there were several services that were supporting the depot in the community that would be impacted by the closure. Once the DDO did close, did you see any kind of an economic hardship on the community? RW: Yeah, absolutely you did there. I mean, you had contractors that that was kind of their bread and butter. There was always work going on out there at the depot, and also vendors, Coca-Cola, things like that. The restaurants along 12th Street and stuff, they were really impacted. I mean, you had a lot of employees that would go off base for lunch every day. Certainly they were affected. 7 AK: Going back a little bit, I keep reading about how green was worn to support DDO. How did that start? RW: Well, when we were meeting and as I was getting some volunteers and things to help out, I says, “We need to be noticed. I think we need to come up with some way that people recognize our efforts.” So, I proposed the green color. I says, “Green is renewed. It's a fresh, living color.” That's how it come about, is just, I threw it out there as green and we ended up green. AK: I like it. I heard that you'd also used some dinosaurs sometimes like, "Don't let DDO go extinct," that kind of stuff. Was that also your idea? RW: Well no, that was all part of the committee, volunteers, you know. We asked for input and suggestions and people were taking it upon themselves to do things— like Monty Rudd. We talked about green ribbons; well, Monty Rudd and his wife took it upon themselves to go around, then they got some volunteers and they went around, and the fabric stores donated all of the material, the ribbons. Then we had a large gathering up to the old Naval center there on 20th Street, and we made ribbons, big bows, and then we hung them all over. We lined 12th Street with them. We lined the main street of DDO with them. We stuck them on the fences, and it was an employee effort. AK: Was that part of your efforts in preparation for the commissioners' visits? RW: Absolutely. See, the first time they came through, there was little publicity. They kind of came in and was in and out without really much fanfare or anything. So, when they came that second time, I had the carpenter shop build a big wooden key to the DDO and we presented that to them. They stayed at the hotel there off 8 of 24th Street, and as they came out the lobby and stuff we had a big hoorah for them and presented them with that. Then they says, “Well, we can't carry it around,” so they gave me a card and says, “FedEx it to this address.” So, I did. I'm sure it didn't make any difference, but it was just symbolic. Then we had all manner of signs made up and things, and then we had all the employees line the main street as BRAC commissioners were to come in and we distributed signs and banners and stuff to all of the employees for them. Of course, we had seen the commissioners also down there in Albuquerque. They provided buses—and I say "they;" I think that was generated through Vicky McCall. She contacted me and says, "We've got two buses, if you can get them filled. The employees have to go at their own expense and take their leave and everything. We'll send them to Albuquerque if you can get the people." So, that's what we did. We got enough people. There were some people that couldn't afford it. I know of one instance where all of the people at the civil engineers passed a hat around to send Brett Harrison, because he had a large family and he'd had some health issues, lost a child and things. So, they paid his way down there with donations. There was some other employees that got some help also. So, there was a lot of concerned people, and they wanted their voice heard. They did step up and they sent a representative on the bus. AK: So, were the buses filled with just employees? Or were there also community members that went down there with you? 9 RW: Well, they were there. We had Governor Leavitt and, of course, Mike Pavich had come along and Vicki McCall. They were all down there, but they had their own transportation, as I recall. Leastways, they weren't on my bus. AK: So, I'm tracking that the Albuquerque hearing was April 1995. Was that after the initial announcement came out that DDO was going to close? RW: Yeah, that was after the announcement. Absolutely. AK: Because I remember in 1995, there were two sets of announcements. There was the one that says, “Okay, the commissioners have put these people on the closure list,” and then the second announcement is the actual, official, like, “Yes this is happening.” So, you were actually on the closure list? RW: We were on the closure list, but there had been no decisions made at that time. We were still advocating to keep us alive and well down there. I remember Tim Kraner had a really good speech to the commissioners, something about the heart being located in the center of the body and being protected and that DDO was basically inland against being protected. We didn't have a lot of the storms, the tornadoes, the hurricanes, and such that these outlying bases had. AK: I'm just curious why that hearing was held in Albuquerque. Was it for several different installations around the country? RW: Yeah. AK: You said that you also gave a speech at that hearing, too? RW: I did. AK: What did you say? Do you remember? 10 RW: Yeah, I basically talked about being located away from harm’s way. The founders had enough foresight to locate the depot inland where it was protected. I also indicated about the quality of the workforce. AK: So, at that point, could the closure list have been changed due to all of your speeches and lobbying? RW: Not really. We already had kind of concluded that we were going to be the sacrificial lamb in this political circus. I mean, with the DLA bases being integrated to get in, you know, together. Of course, there was no way that they wanted to get rid of Tooele, not with their mission of handling the very hazardous materials that was going on, especially at that time. They were still having to dispose of the mustard gas. We knew that wasn't going to go anywhere. Hill had, what, 10,000 employees? You know, a lot bigger impact than we did. Although, what we knew as employees was the service that we provided, it wasn't just to the military. Them employees would work long, long hours without any complaining at all. When the Teton Dam, for instance, went, we had a call for tents, sleeping bags, you know, things like that, and so they was right there. When we've had the hurricanes and the earthquakes, they'd work long, long hours through the night to get things pitched, sorted, stocked, packed, and on trucks and head them out. They did it without any complaints, and they put in a lot of long hours doing it. So, they were not just serving just the military. They were serving all people. AK: I had read about that. Was that distributed through the National Guard? Was that why you were allowed to help with efforts like that? 11 RW: I don't know who initiated. All I know is all of a sudden there would be an increase in the workload because we knew we were told it was going to go to aid this specific problem. AK: Interesting. When I was reading through The Hub newsletter, I think I saw that you guys sent things as far as like Bosnia? Is that correct? RW: Oh, yeah. I mean, it wasn't just within the continental US, this was worldwide. It was, as I stated, a model installation. They provided support where needed, when needed, and they did it in a really timely manner. Some of these other bases, we knew that the employees weren't as efficient, they weren't as apt to stay on. "Union rule says I got to do this or I don't have to do that," kind of thing. Our employees just said, "We know that there's a need," and so they'd step up and do it. No complaints. If there was, there was very few of them. AK: So, you mentioned a minute ago about how the Hill/DDO'95 group was more worried about fighting for keeping Hill Air Force Base open and Tooele open. When you say "Tooele," do you mean the Dugway Proving Grounds? RW: Yeah. AK: Okay. Because I know the Army Depot had closed in ‘93. RW: Yeah, you're right [laughs]. AK: Okay, just making sure. Backing up a tiny bit, would you tell me a bit about the BRAC commissioner visit in April 1995? I found it interesting that it was on a separate day than Hill Air Force Base, which I guess makes sense; that's a lot of ground to cover. But did the community come out in force the way that they did for the Hill Air Force Base visit? 12 RW: [Shakes head] No, there was a few, but darn few. It wasn't really advertised as well, I guess. No, there wasn't a lot of community businesses or anything else that came out. AK: Which is surprising where so many businesses on 12th street— RW: Absolutely. We were surprised. But again, we knew that the effort was going to be on keeping Hill. Certainly, Hill needed to remain—that was obvious—but unfortunately, the decision to close DDO, in my opinion, wasn't a good choice. They billed it as they were saving money, they were saving taxpayer dollars by consolidating. Well, the bean counters actually had shown that the cost to close the depot and to relocate and everything, it was going to be nearly 50 years before the government broke even. But it was really great for the politicians to stand up and say, “We've closed these depots and we've saved you millions of dollars.” But what they don't say is behind the scenes how much it really did cost and how long it's going to take to recoup those savings. They're still behind as far as the government. Now, obviously, Ogden City, I see in the news all the time they're just happier than happy, because they've got a good tax base going. They’ve got good revenue coming in. They supposedly took into account that DDO is on the Superfund cleanup. There's a lot of hazardous stuff out there. They had burn pits, they buried a lot of stuff during the war, and even during my tenure. There was mercury buried out there, PCB. They were digging one time and unearthed a barrel of mustard gas. I was part of the shop that had to go out there after that 13 exposure of that mustard gas that they dug, and we had to put sniffers out to sniff the air while they were doing their remedial. There’s still monitoring stations out there. I mean, every base, Hill Air Force Base, they've got their own problems with environmental impact. I mean, they've got groundwater contamination and whatnot. Well, so does DDO. Any military base that was at a time when the environmental impact wasn't known as well, it was common practice to just go out and bury it. AK: I want to ask a little more about the cleanup efforts and transitioning DDO into Business Depot Ogden, but first I want to ask, do you remember kind of where you were the day that you guys officially found out that DDO was going to close? Was that a surprise or did you kind of see that coming? RW: You know, they didn't even get us together. It was just an announcement on the closed-circuit type TV and radio and stuff. So, we were sitting in the electric shop when it was announced. AK: What was the feeling at DDO? RW: Well, it was pretty sad. It was pretty sad, because the senior DLA DDO representatives that were advocating to keep it open, they had their ducks in a row, they had facts. I was there at the time that they presented them when the BRAC commissioners came on that second visit. It was really compelling. These people really had their ducks in a row. They presented facts that couldn't be disputed. I reported to the employees how I felt that we may just beat this, because common sense with what they presented to the BRAC commission, most people would say we shouldn't be closing this place. So, when it happened, 14 why, I personally was just really shocked and upset, because where I had been all along with the process and in these meetings and stuff, you know, I was hopeful, even though I knew there was politics involved. But I thought if they're going to take some bases, maybe they'll take the ones that aren't as high up on the list of productivity and essential [shrugs and shakes head]. Yeah, there was a lot of tears that day. There was people stunned. AK: What kind of resources did they have for you guys? Because it sounds like it was a shock. I'm sure it has to be really hard emotionally for a lot of employees. RW: It absolutely was, because there was a lot of them that knew they were gonna lose their jobs. There was only so many jobs that was going to go to Hill, and there was a lot more employees than there were jobs. So, what they did do is over in the headquarters building—the one that's in that article, in fact—they set up rooms and computers and then had employees helping. The employees were allowed—on government time, not on their own time—they were given time to come up and either do a resume or update their resumes and to be able to put in for other jobs around in government. Could have been through the Forest Service, IRS, other DLA facilities, Air Force. So, they were aided in that respect to update their resumes. They were given help to do that. AK: That is really nice. We have interviewed people from the McClellan Air Logistics Center, which ended up closing. They talked about having some kinds of emotional support available because there were some people who were having thoughts of suicide and just struggling. Did you see any of that? RW: I did not. 15 AK: Did they have any kind of counseling for how to adjust to these kinds of changes at all? RW: Not really. Nope. AK: I'd also read that the DDO—I think it was specifically General LeBarron—had started a Personnel Outplacement Services Center where they helped people to get placed into new jobs. Do you know anything about that? RW: Well, that's what I was referring to. AK: Okay. Did they bring in recruiters to talk to the employees about new jobs that they could take, or anything like that? RW: No, they just provided the ability to do these resumes and then give them the job openings. They did have them printed out so that they knew. They didn't have to research anything; they were given a list of positions that were open. AK: So, how did your job, your personal job, change after the announcement? Was it more workload transition focused? RW: Oh, yeah, it was. Obviously, as the electric shop, still maintained all of the electrical on base. We had linemen, electricians, electronics. So, our jobs only kind of increased because we were having to shut down various dock systems, etcetera, as the stock was moved out, and kind of like shut the warehouse down and then move some of the equipment out to Hill Air Force Base to building 849 and 843. I don't know, there was half a dozen warehouses, stock selectors, forklifts, that sort of thing. AK: Did you transition up to Hill Air Force Base then? RW: I did. I was downgraded from a leader back to an electronics technician and 16 was assigned to work on the wire-guided stock selectors in the warehouses. As I was a union rep when the A-76 was announced, the union assigned me as the employee representative to be on the A-76 team at the same time, because I was in maintenance. Then the team gave me a second hat to wear. I was in charge of coming up with figures and workloads and etcetera, for building maintenance and all of the equipment maintenance. So, I was, I guess you would call detailed in as an A-76 team member from that point on until that happened. Then A-76 took out the rest of the employees, which was a whole new story with a lot of unfortunate politics involved. That was about a two-year process. AK: Just so we have it recorded, would you tell me a little bit about what A-76 was? RW: A-76 is another government program to privatize government jobs. When it was announced that we were going under A-76 review, the team actually put together a bid based on the workload, what was needed, employees, equipment, maintenance, the entire operation. Like I said, it was about a two-year process where we actually interviewed, not every employee, but at least every position out there. Because some positions, even though they were saying "forklift operator," some would do different operations than another one. So, we had to go to every separate operation and we had to build an SOP, Standard Operating Procedures, line by line by line. Politically, it was devastating, because what we did was we gave them like, “Here's our work plan.” You can bring anybody off the street, pull out our paper, and it said this is step one, this is step two, and this is how you do this new job that you're going to. We had to give it to the contractors. So, immediately 17 they had the playbook. On top of that, there were two sets of rules. One rule’s for the government, and then another set of rules for the bidding contractors. The bidding contractors didn't have to use the same wages as the government did. So, right off the bat, there was a five-dollar-an-hour disparity between the government pay and what the contractors could pay. That's pretty hard to beat when you're already starting out with a five-dollar deficit. Unfortunately. Well, we worked long and hard as a team to put this together, and it was a solid bid. We put our heart and soul into it. In fact, I spent more time one year in Pennsylvania than I did in Ogden in preparing for these, as a team. At the point where we had to submit our bid, we had what we believed was the winning bid. We were very creative, and it was kind of hard, too, because being on the union side, I'm trying to protect pay, I'm trying to protect people. But at the same time, I kind of felt like I would rather cut off an arm and save the body. That was my dilemma. But anyway, the team came up with a bid that we were pretty positive we would win. Unfortunately—and I won't name names—but higher authority within DLA wouldn't allow us to submit that bid. We had to add an additional, I believe it was about 50 positions, because the higher authorities felt like we couldn't do the work. But we wouldn't have submitted the bid had we not have done enough round housing, research, and wage-cutting that we could have made it. The one benefit was that the government had a 10%—within the two bids, between the government and the contractor, there was a 10% that if we were that close, the government got the 10%. So anyway, we had to add those extra positions. We 18 lost the bid only to find out that if we would have submitted our first bid, we would have won and we would have saved. It would have still been under government workload or government positions. As it was, EG&G got the bid, and they're still out there. Every time they do the rebidding, they just do a new subchapter of their own business. So, now it's not EG&G, it's something else, but it's the same company. The costs went out of sight! It costs them more now to have that private contractor doing the work than it would have if they had just left the employees there. That's the politics. So, we were right around 1,300 people at the beginning of the BRAC study. We had probably 600 or so that made it, and that included the people that were DLA employees already at Hill, because, of course, they combined. When it was all said and done, maybe about 600 jobs remained. AK: Is that after 1995 or 2005? RW: Well, that included the 250 or so employees that stayed at DDO until 2002. They were the Det Meds group, and what they were out there for was they were waiting. They were building the new building at Hill Field to bring them out there. Of course, even on the cost overruns of that building, the building ended up being about half the size of what was originally planned. Again, government [shakes head and shrugs]. So, they moved out, I think it was around 2002. At the end of the day, when EG&G took over, then of the 1,300 or so employees, plus whatever employees was at Hill DLA to begin with, they were all gone. So, we only ended up with about 250 people out of the whole thing. 19 AK: So, when we were talking a little earlier before we turned on the camera, you said that the A-76 happened in about 2006? RW: Somewhere in there. I'm sure we could research it and find out exactly when it was announced, but I think it was right around that area. AK: Was that connected to the 2005 BRAC, do you think? RW: No [shakes head]. It was a different program. That's another one of the tools that the government has. The BRAC was to close bases. The A-76 is to privatize bases. AK: Okay. That makes sense that that would be different. RW: Even with the privatization, see, they give the contractor not only the playbook on how to do the job, but they also give them all the equipment. So, it was all government equipment. Everything was handed over to the contractor. They said, “Here you go.” So, all the contractor had to do was turn around and rehire the government employees that they wanted and, of course, pay them less money. I want to say too that because of that, as a government employee, it's not a job, it's a career. That's what made the government employees different, because they had a vested interest. The better they did their job, the better they could go up in rank. At the same time, they were building a career for retirement. When you go private contract, you're at the mercy of whenever they want to let you go. So, there was employees that didn't have enough time to retire, many of them, and so if they couldn't get another job, it was just their retirement was lost, you see. It was just [spreads hands]. Because the government had their own 20 retirement system. They didn't pay into Social Security. So, all of these people are almost like 10, 12 years into a job, and all of a sudden they find out they're out, and they didn't even have any retirement possibilities for it. Had to start new. So, it hurt people in a lot of ways. AK: Sounds like it. That is rough. What did you do after the A-76? RW: I was one of the very fortunate. I was placed into what they called, let me think what the acronym was for it. Basically, we had a small group of about ten government employees that within their areas of expertise were kept on as managers to oversee the contract. I was one of them. I was in charge of all of the building maintenance and all of the equipment maintenance and the equipment inventory. Also, I was second for security and environmental. AK: How long did you have that job? RW: Well, it's still going. Those few people are still government employees that oversee the operation of the contractor. I retired in 2010 with 42 years of service. AK: That's very cool. Good for you. Before I ask the last couple of questions I have here, you mentioned a little bit about some of your memories of helping DDO to close down, including helping with the cleanup and things like that. Were there any other outstanding memories that you wanted to share with helping DDO to close down and transition into the new Business Depot Ogden? RW: Well, the only thing would be, it was unfortunate to see, again, the waste. Because there were thousands of dollars’ worth of small tools, equipment, things like that, that they were left behind for Ogden City, but a lot of it just ended up in dumpsters. Just throw it away. No accountability. It's kind of funny because my 21 next-door neighbor that’s living next to me today, I noticed he had a ladder up there against his house. I says, "That's my ladder from work!" He says, "It is?" I says, "Well, there's my name right on the ladder. There's my shop and my shop number." He says, "Yeah, my uncle works for Ogden City." [laughs] So, just a lot of waste, unfortunately. But I'm sure in the government's eyes it was a lot cheaper to throw that stuff away than it was to try to inventory every screwdriver and drill [shrugs]. AK: That is funny that it ended up in your next-door neighbor's yard. RW: [Laughs] My ladder! Like he said, "My uncle works for Ogden City," [laughs] and it was Ogden City that took over. SL: I have one question, going back a little bit. You talk about rallies that you held during the BRAC process. Were you able to do that on base? RW: No, none of it was allowed on base. We had to go on the other side of the street. Even distributing our green hats and T-shirts, we had to go outside the base to do that. Government regulations. It was like they says, “Do this, but we're going to tie your hands for anything that's really meaningful on base to do it.” I guess the legalities, I don't know. AK: Did you have a certain location you liked to go for rallies or handing out things like that? 22 RW: Well, we would try to do it in areas where there was traffic, obviously. So, a lot of it was held outside on 12th Street and some of it was held outside the West gate, where there was a lot of IRS traffic and things. AK: What did you do for your rallies? Was it a lot of speeches or did you hand out things? RW: Well, we just had our banners and signs and people would talk about, you know, we've got to get more involvement. We've got to get out to the—everybody go to the stores, go to the businesses, talk to them, get their support, write letters to the editor. There's a bunch of them in letter to the editor over that period of time. AK: Yeah, I've seen some of those actually. That's interesting that that's partly why. RW: [Nods] That's how all that was. It was a joint effort by the concerned employees. AK: So, we happen to have a copy of the DDO history book. Did you have a hand in any of that at all? RW: [Laughs] I did not. In fact, it was so hastily done because at the same time, we were already in the process between the BRAC and the closure and everything. I was one of the employees that never even got contacted when they were having their pictures, or when the rallies were. They have one picture out on the lawn and it's kind of an aerial shot down. I didn't even know. They didn't tell us. I hate to say it, but it was kind of like the supervisors' friends and the ones that they wanted that they let know. Even the picture of my own electric shop—they didn't even tell me they were taking a picture, so I'm not even in the picture of the electric shop. 23 [Laughs] Not that I care on that. It was just that I feel like it was kind of a hasty thing. I think they left out a lot of really good people that maybe should have been included, as well as some of their procedures, their mechanized areas. I think they should have featured some more of that, because a lot of that was adopted with other installations, because we were a model installation. You would have thought that they would have wanted to include the wire-guided stock. These carts would go around the warehouse and the pickers would just take their stock and put it on the cart and program it, then it would go to the packing station it belonged to. That should have been maybe part of the history, but it wasn't. So, I think it was a good gesture, certainly, and I think the pictures were great of the earlier beginning of the depot. Those were great. But I think towards the end and stuff there, they just didn't put as much [shrugs]. That was just my opinion, though. AK: Yeah, I totally understand your frustration. You did a lot for the BRAC efforts and everything. RW: Well, you know, I did it because I wanted to be able to feel like, as an individual, I did everything I possibly could to not only help me, but to help everybody. So, I do things and I don't need any special recognitions or being called out on or any of that. It's not me. I was also part of the, before BRAC ever came around, I joined the Brown and Welfare Committee, which helped employees if they came and said, “Hey, we've got a real problem here.” We would actually have a fund where we could help them with like a utility bill, or we could get them hooked up with some 24 counseling, things like that. I just like to stay in the background, but I like to, whenever possible, be able to help out where I can. But certainly, I like to. I couldn't stay in the background as far as the BRAC. Even with the A-76, as a team, you know, we were always in the employees’ line of fire, per se. But we do what we can and hope for the best. That's all I did, and so did every other person that stepped up to the plate and volunteered to do this. It was a joint effort trying to save it, save DDO. AK: So, part of the reason why I asked about the history book is I feel like it seemed like that was kind of an effort to preserve DDO's legacy for future generations. What would you say is the legacy that you'd like people to remember DDO by? RW: I think that the biggest legacy of DDO was the people and their willingness to work hard, their work ethics, and their desire to do what's right rather than to take shortcuts or argue about working conditions because we didn't get a break or something like that. Its legacy is the people and its mission and the support that it gave to not only the services but also the various communities that it helped in times of crisis. That's its big legacy. AK: One question I skipped over was, were you there for DDO's closing ceremony? RW: Very solemn. Yeah. AK: Can you tell me kind of what they did there and what you remember of it? RW: I don't really remember a lot because your mind is trying to process everything. But I mean, there was a lot of thank you’s and "jobs well done," and "we did our best," and "we appreciate everybody's efforts," and everything. Of course, they tried to indicate that it was best for the country and saving tax dollars and things 25 like that. But, you know, people were upset. I mean, there were careers that were going by the wayside. There was certainly uncertainties of, “How am I going to pay my bills now that I don't have a job?” So, yeah, there was some real emotions there. AK: Well, were there any last things you wanted to share before we wrap up? RW: No, I don't think so. I kind of give you guys a little insight on maybe looking into the A-76. That was a big thing out there and ultimately ended up taking the rest of the employees that left DDO. So, you know, there was no certainty left for them. I mean, they just went from one thing to another to another. We were able to save Det Meds because it was proven that a contractor couldn't do the work as proficient and as cost effective. Then it was the Army that actually submitted the letter to keep it intact because, you know, when you start getting into privatization, you got a contract. Any time you make a change in a contract, then they want to go back to the negotiating table and say, “How much more is it going to cost?” You know, “We want this much more,” or, “We're not going to do this because it's in our contract that says we don't have to.” The Army couldn't have that. I don't know if you know what Det Meds is all about out there, but it builds hospitals, and truly they’re sent all over today. Everywhere. Everything from Xrays, dental, to surgery, to everything in between. But if they hadn't put it on the list to be looked at for contract, the Army would not have been able to make the changes as needed for whatever situation came about. Where, being with government, it's just another day, another job, and this is now what you do today, 26 this is what they request. That's what saved Det Med, was actually that Army's letter. AK: Interesting. Thank you so much. I really appreciate you meeting with us. RW: Well, you're welcome. 27