Oral History Program Bret Alexander Interviewed by Lorrie Rands 28 April 2025 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Bret Alexander Interviewed by Lorrie Rands 28 April 2025 Copyright © 2026 by Weber State University, Stewart Library Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description Queering the Archives oral history project is a series of oral histories from the LGBTQ+ communities of Weber, Davis and Morgan Counties of Northern Utah. Each interview is a life interview, documenting the interviewee’s unique experiences growing up queer. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Alexander, Bret, an oral history by Lorrie Rands, 28 April 2025, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, Special Collections & University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Bret Alexander conducted over Zoom by Lorrie Rands on April 28, 2025. Bret discusses his experiences growing up queer in Utah and being the first person in his family to seek an education, as well as where his life has gone because of it. Also present is Raegan Baird. Note: Active listening, transitions in dialogue (such as “um,” “so,” “you know,” etc.), and false starts in conversations are not included in transcription for ease of reading. All additions to transcript noted with brackets. Content warning: Sexual assault LR: Today is April 28, 2025. We are with Bret Alexander doing an oral history interview for Queering the Archives Oral History Project at Weber State University. We are in a Zoom call, and Raegan Baird is with me as well. Please feel free, Raegan, in to ask questions if they come up. Oh, and my name is Lorrie Rands conducting. I almost forgot. Again, I'm gonna say thank you for your willingness, Bret. I am very grateful. Let's just jump in with, first of all, our pronouns. This is how we start every Queering in the Archives interview. I'll start; my pronouns are she/her, and I identify as a lesbian. RB: My pronouns are she/her, and I'm straight. BA: I go by he/him, or they/them, and I am gay, but queer more generally. LR: Thank you so much. Let's jump in with when and where you were born? BA: Yeah, so born—and I have the questions pulled up too, so I don't get lost. I was born in 1997, February 25, so I'm a Pisces, in Ogden, Utah. LR: Okay. Did you grow up in Ogden? 1 BA: I did, yes, my whole life. I think I moved when I was 22, right after I got my master's degree, to Salt Lake. I've only lived in those two spots. I know it's a question a little bit down below, but yeah, those two. LR: Whereabouts in Ogden did you grow up? BA: Ogden proper, so 32nd Street and Porter Avenue. I went to T.O. Smith Elementary, I went to Mount Ogden Junior High, I went to Ogden High School, and then I went to Weber State. I think I shared this with my previous interview as well, but I grew up on 32nd and Porter, bounced around a bit. I think one time we lived in Sunset; moved right back to Ogden, though. Moved quite a bit in the Ogden area, just because of a lot of the struggles my mom was having with drug use. Bounced around, lived in a hotel at one point, lived in an RV in a parking lot at one point, settled on my stepdad's mother's house that she owned, let us live rent-free there. That was kind of the end of the beginning after I moved out when I was 16, and then moved two blocks from Weber. LR: Oh, okay. What was your family dynamic growing up? I know you kind of hinted at it. BA: Yeah, definitely tumultuous, I would say, to kick it off. My biological father left when I was pretty young, I don't know, probably one or two, so I never knew him. Then my mom was a single mother raising myself and my sister, going between a husband, boyfriends, and then her current husband fell in with her—I'm assuming they're still married. I haven't talked to them in like 10-plus years, so that whole situation, kind of leading up to that, settled there. It was rough, as she 2 was a single mom for a bit and then didn't hold down a job or a career, so she was a stay-at-home mom, but really addicted to drugs, I suppose. She wasn't really there, so we were raising ourselves in its own right, talking with a lot of family. Most of my family, aunts, uncles, I have seven of them, a majority of them—I want to say five with my 50-plus cousins—all live in Ogden. Going to their houses, being raised around that family unit was really nice, because I think most of my family either is on drugs, in jail or prison, in gangs and whatnot, but then there's this other side that took me in and raised me. That dichotomy in my family are folks that never touched drugs, those that did, bouncing between there. So, this led me into a path of knowing what I didn't want to do and what I did want to do, and going forward from there. Growing up, it made me grow up faster, I suppose. Yeah, a long short answer to that. LR: I forgot to mention, if I ask a question that you're not comfortable with, please, you don't have to answer. Just let me know and we'll move on. I wanted to make that clear. BA: No, definitely. Yes, I appreciate that. LR: Growing up the way you did, not really having one set place, if you will, to call home, how did that, do you think, influence how you viewed the world? BA: That's a great question. I think for me, when I went home to my house, I never really felt safe, secure, or I could be my authentic self. But when I went to school—that's why I think I'm on the trajectory I am currently on with school and academics, and was a first-generation college student, first one in my entire 3 extended family and immediate family to get a degree and progress through that, was me throwing myself in school. School was and is my home. That's where I built my chosen family, which I think it lent itself to my queerness and understanding that blood doesn't always make the world go round and sometimes can often harm you. So, bouncing around that and growing up with some folks and finding my community at school, folks that were like-minded, but also folks that maybe weren't, but still accepted me because of who I was to them. I'm not gonna say I forced myself to be in their lives and loved, but I didn't really have anyone else, right, to give a hug to or do anything like that. My friends really became my family in school. I'd probably say that tidbit. Yeah, it just pushed me into growing up a bit quick and making a general understanding that community is what you make it and family is what make it. LR: Thank you. Is your sister your only sibling, then? BA: Kind of. It’s complicated. My dad, when he left, he has five other kids in Texas. I know of them, like we're friends on Facebook. That's about it. That's the extent. I think I've met them once when he was doing whatever and their mom came to Utah. Again, my family situation’s so complicated, but the way that he had kids with her, she was actually related to someone my mom knew, so it was a whole thing. I did meet them once, there's five of them, and then my sister is a halfsister as well with one of the marriages my mom had. So yeah, kind of, and that's convoluted, but… [laughs] 4 LR: No, it actually is because the way you were talking, you almost make it sound like it was just you, so I was curious as to where your sister fit in, ‘cause you did mention her in the beginning. But it sounds like it really was just you and that you really weren't that close with your sister. Am I right in that? BA: Yeah, I would say some stuff has happened since I moved out when I was 16. My sister always had her father, who was a military man. She would split her time with my mom and him, but he was extremely abusive to me, but loved her, tried to get her on the right path. But when I moved when I was 16, it kind of felt she fell in line with my mom. She is on drugs, I'm pretty sure, currently. She's going through the same path that my mom basically went through. ‘Cause my mom had me when she was 16, and my sister now has three kids and she's 25 and going through the same motions, it seems like. I talk to her mostly out of not survivor's guilt, but making sure like, I want her to know I'm here for her even though she went down the same path as my mom, not wanting her to feel abandoned, but it's strange, that relationship. It's definitely estranged, but I try to give my best effort. But I do often speak in terms of singularity because the path I took isolated me from that specific immediate family and branched out into making some other close people that I consider brothers and sisters. My cousin took me in when I was 17 and I was able to grow up with her kids, ‘cause she's a single mom. LR: Okay, thank you. This kind of makes the next two questions a little strange, because you really didn't have this consistent family dynamic, but what were you taught about gender roles growing up? 5 BA: Definitely, and I think that one's probably a mix of Utah culture mixed with my specific family unit. I remember the first picture I think I ever have of myself as a baby, I am holding a football with a bunch of different sports in the background, and a picture of my sister growing up is like a bunch of fairies and unicorns. I would say as early as I could have been, I think that's just society, but specifically Utah, shaping folks and probably men specifically to go work, get the money, where mothers are the homemakers. That's why my mom was a stay-at-home mom. Seeing that reflected in my stepdad, who I spent a majority of my childhood with, would hold down a job and go in and out of that, where my mom I think in my whole life never had a job. I think it was that mix of, “This is just what happens. I'm gonna be here, even though I'm not doing anything at the house. That's what I get to do because I'm a woman.” I think that translated a lot into what I was shown, and my family mirrored that in as many ways as possible. But then also that chosen family I made at school, a lot of them were part of the LDS faith. Seeing myself being baptized at 12, because my best friend's dad is a bishop and we went through that whole process as well, understanding the way of the teachings and what's told to you and how it works. Probably since that first picture when I was under one years old into today, still seeing it perpetuated. LR: What were you taught about sexuality growing up? BA: Taught, probably… I'm thinking the first thing that pops in my mind, and there is a subsection to this, but the first thing I'm thinking of is like sixth grade, when they 6 do maturation. They separate everyone, they say, “This is X, this is Y,” right, kind of figuring all of that out. But for sexuality, when I was I think five, was sexually assaulted by one of my mom's husband's sons. That was a whole thing in its own right, where I went through that for a year or two. Popped that in my brain when I was super, super young, so just led to a bunch of questions when I entered my teenage years. Thankfully, living in the age of Google was really awesome, ‘cause I was able to Google anything I could, figure out, and teach myself. That led itself into I think it was 11 or 12 when I came out. LR: Okay. Were you able to have discussions with anyone in your family about any of these things? BA: I would say no, it's mostly like the taboo. You don't talk about it, it didn't happen, brush it under the rug. Even telling my mom, it took probably six months before I think one, I was believed, and then two, she was abused enough by her then husband to leave herself, physically abused. It kind of played itself in that. Beyond that, I think a lot of my family members—for instance, the one I moved in with when I was 17, the single mom who took me in—they knew about it, I think, but no one ever talked about it. It wasn't like, “Let's get you therapy, let's get you resources,” until I think it was my senior year for my undergrad degree at Weber. I was going through a lot in my own mind and reached out to the Women's Center and talked to a survivor advocate and was able to talk, and I think maybe you know Paige. Paige was someone that was able to connect with me. Gave me a couple of resources books, and now I'm consistently in therapy 7 trying to rework a lot of the brain chemistry that has been instilled in me through that. LR: Okay, it's interesting because you actually ended up answering the question I was asking, but you answered it through the lens of the abuse that you suffered at the beginning. That really wasn't what I was asking, but I realized I didn't ask the question well. I was asking if you're able to talk to anyone about sexuality, but I'm realizing how closely mirrored those two things are, having had similar experiences in my own life. So, thank you. I just found that fascinating how that worked. BA: That’s interesting. LR: You said that you came out when you were 11, 12. When did you begin to notice a difference for yourself? Like, “I'm not like those around me. I don't feel like, I don't see”—I'm not asking this question well either. But basically, when did you realize that “I'm not quite like the other guys around me”? BA: Yeah, yeah. I think there's a pretty distinct moment. Fourth grade, that best friend I was telling you about and her father baptized me, there was a moment where her and I, like the reading slips—and this is such a vivid memory, it's crazy. But her asking like, “Hey, do you like me?” I was like, “Yes, I do. You're my best friend,” and basically us becoming boyfriend girlfriend, and going through that in like fourth grade, so young, just ‘cause I think I saw that everywhere. After, I don't even know, a month or something, I was like, “Yeah, this… We're best friends, but I don't feel anything 8 else beyond that.” Even being so young, I can see how that's kind of a mixed message. As it progressed a bit more, probably fifth grade, right after that year, I don't know what it was, but my teacher was very, very hot. He walked in, and I was, like, “You're gorgeous, and this is what I want to one day maybe aspire to be.” But I think I noticed then I was like, “Okay, this is someone that I find attraction to,” even though I was in fifth grade and he was like 27 or something. A little bit of a fantasy there. As I progressed a bit more, going through growing up with, I guess, all the cousins I have, them talking about things, or like even innuendos and stuff they would make, I'd always be a little off put. I'm like, “That's not how I think at all. That's not how I feel.” So, going through that as well in my personal life with them, in addition to school and just building those connections there. LR: During this time, fourth, fifth grade, did you have anyone that you could talk to that you could like relate and share what you're experiencing, or was it something that you did internally? BA: It was definitely internally, yes. I don't think there was anyone in my life at that time, and I know the coming out piece is maybe a little bit later, but it probably took me three, four years after that—I'm trying to do some quick math—before I even reached out to anyone and told them I had these inner thoughts. But I had like this weird notebook diary where I would write everything, and that was a piece of it where I'm like, yeah, kind of express myself in that way. Put it outside of my mind and see it in writing was really nice. Me writing like a million times 9 over, “I am gay, I am gay, I am gay.” I’m like, “Okay, yeah, this is how I feel if I'm writing it 12 times. This is what's going on with me.” So, definitely internally. LR: I'm curious—now I'm realizing you weren't 11 or 12 when you came out; that's when you were baptized. BA: It was kind of similar though. I came out to myself as gay and was baptized around that time. LR: Okay. I have like five questions in my head, so I'm trying to separate them into one. Up until the point that you were baptized, did you grow up in the predominant religion, or was it kind of all over the place? BA: I did not, no. Which is funny, my grandma is a direct line from the prophet Wilford Woodruff, so our line is connected from the pioneers. But my whole subsection, I suppose, none of us are in the faith. Like, the 75-plus of us in Ogden, or even sprinkled throughout the country, none of us. It was not in my purview until building that community in elementary school with that best friend and tying those identities together. LR: Okay, I'm imagining it was through your connection with your best friend then, what led you into learning about and then being baptized? BA: Yeah, for me, I think it was that sense of community that I was missing at home. They would take me to church on Sundays and I would go to young men's on Wednesday nights, and being trained culturally in Utah that one, that's what you do, two, you have someone to lean on in that case, and then three, it's an extracurricular, right? If I'm out here doing young men’s on Wednesday nights, I'm not gonna be with my cousins smoking cigarettes or doing anything else. For 10 me, it was a buffer between who I wanted to become, and I thought, for me at that time, it was a way to get there. LR: At that time, having that realization that yeah, you're probably gay, did you feel any sense of like, “Maybe this isn't the right path for me”? Or was it more just, “This is a community that I feel safe in, so I'm going to just go for it”? BA: Definitely I knew it wasn't the right path for me, because right after I was baptized, I don't think I went to church ever again [laughs]. It was pretty immediate. I think that was a stark situation for me, that day. I think it's seared into my memory, everything that transpired of getting dressed, to being baptized, to essentially knowing and internalizing it. But then, making sure that other folks in my close circle, some of my best friends—I think it was seventh, eighth grade—I told one of them that I was gay, and then it just built from there. Yeah, just dropped off after that, ‘cause that was also the year—my age group, sixth grade went from middle school to elementary. That transition happened right when I was in fifth grade going into sixth grade, so sixth grade dropped back so we had to stay in elementary another year. From there, I think leaving elementary school kind of opened my eyes a bit more as everything was happening with my family unit to just build a path for myself, and I knew that the church wasn't part of that. Or if it was, I didn't want it to be, because of everything that I was taught and talked to elders about and missionaries, and the teachings that were being told across the world were right in my backyard. So, a lot of different like, mixed feelings on that, I suppose. 11 LR: Right, okay. So, not really having a community at home that you can speak with, the community that you thought you were going to get with a religion really didn't work. You're going into junior high at this point; what were some of the communities or classes that you took that were really helpful and beneficial for you? BA: Some of the classes specifically… LR: Or extracurricular activities, something within the school dynamic. Your safe space. BA: For me, it was choir. I think that was something I joined ‘cause in elementary I did plays, I did the ukulele, Big Buddha came to our school and I was doing square dancing and stuff, so I loved the arts piece of it. I was involved in choir throughout junior high. I think that was really the only outlet I had, besides hanging out and socializing with some of my close friends, which I had maybe three, four, which was another piece of it. These were all folks that were accepted into the gifted program, so they were learning at an accelerated rate, whereas I wasn't. That was another, I guess, a cleavage in our relationship there. Definitely choir. A lot of the friends that I just mentioned were involved in that as well, and building my community there, which I think lends itself to the queer community a lot. The arts, not only musicals, plays, but choir. It was nice to be surrounded by folks, not only that were like-minded, but identified within the queer community. As we grow through high school, it was the same group pretty much, with a couple of other junior highs mixing at Ogden High and just growing that community a bit more. Now, 10 years later from high school, I can look at 12 that and say, yeah, a lot of the folks that were in choir with me have now come out. It was nice to just have that community there. LR: Transitioning then to high school, did you continue to stay in choir, or did you find other outlets? Then did your friend group follow you, or did you need to find a new friend group? So, kind of two questions. BA: A great question. Yes, they followed me, which I'll get to a specific point with one of those specific individuals when it came to my identity. It was a group of five, or maybe four, but then it grew by senior year to five. We did stay in choir, and I was the choir president and vice president for my junior, senior year. I threw myself into it. I would stay after school to organize all of the sheet music and just really make myself known. I took multiple choir classes, acapella and chamber, really made sure that I was involved as much as possible with the musicals taking place. Just understanding that, you know, I would eat my lunch in the choir room, that that was my safe place. That's where I had a queer teacher. He, I think, still teaches there, but he really opened my eyes to the understanding that you can be successful and queer, and those aren't mutually exclusive, and to think so is kind of down on yourself. So, that definitely continued. What I would say about that friend: I think I was slowly letting people know about ninth grade, and then 10th grade kind of keeping it a secret, but like everyone knew pretty much. Then it transpired into 11th grade, and this was the point in my life where I knew I loved school, so I was involved in multiple AP classes. I think being told I wasn't accepted into the gifted program in junior high really propelled me into studying a lot, doing all my homework, and making sure 13 that I could qualify for these AP classes, take AP exams, get as much credit for college, even though I didn't know I was gonna go to college until two weeks before the semester at Weber. Just understanding that my grades were gonna be important, and even if they weren't, it's something that I really prided myself on. Come senior year, that close, close friend we had since seventh grade, with my best friend since second grade. Her and I grew up, we're still friends, we still talk to this day. One of those friends I had told, “Yes, I am gay,” and this was 2015, so Obergefell, right? We were having a discussion over this, and me saying, “Yeah, I am gay.” I guess another tidbit of context, I was unhoused from 16 when I moved out until I was 17. I was sleeping on couches, staying in my truck basically, and doing all of that. One of my friends, the person in question right now, let me live with them for a short period of time. Super grateful, you know. I don't think I could have done that without building that community or having folks really be generous with their resources. Come senior year, we have this discussion, I say I am queer, and there's a couple of people debating, “You can be queer, but you shouldn't get married, X, Y, Z.” This friend, I guess she didn't know I was queer, or maybe was hoping I wasn't, but she really dug into me and belittled me based on my sexuality. From that, we haven't talked or spoken since then, and she was someone really close to me. Everyone else in that friend group hopped on the bandwagon of supporting queer identities and said, “No, you are in the wrong, and we're gonna 14 continue supporting Bret, and I think it's a community that needs to be uplifted.” That was nice and reaffirming to see, which is another long story. LR: No, it's also really a fascinating story too, so thank you for sharing. During your time in junior high and high school, were you encouraged to pursue a higher education, or was it like just a thought? BA: I definitely wasn't encouraged. As I mentioned, no one in my immediate or extended family has ever completed a degree in college. I think some have attended but dropped out. That's not the case anymore, thankfully. Me and that cousin who took me in—she's 42, she's a single mom, has three kids, took me in—and since I've gotten my undergrad and graduate degree, she's gone back and gotten her undergrad and graduate degree. That's really nice. But no, never encouraged, I don't think at all. There was one moment in junior high. We had someone from Weber come talk to us and say, “I was able to receive a grant, I have done X, Y, Z in student leadership, and because of these things”—this was probably eighth grade actually— “I'm getting paid to go to school.” That was like the first kernel, the first nugget, where I said, “If I don't get scholarships, I'm not gonna be able to afford it.” I came from a family where my mom didn't work and my stepdad rarely did, so we made maybe, I'm guessing, $12 to $20 thousand a year, so really, really scraping by. Hearing that was really nice, and maybe that's what made me focus more in school, get great grades. In my senior year of high school, I ran for senior class office, and I got second place and was able to do that. I think that is what propelled me into getting involved at Weber, where I was an emerging leader on 15 the scholarship program. I was able to get paid for school, and that was amazing. It transpired into me being involved in WSUSA until I was student body president, and just launched me into where I am today. Maybe that kernel grew into a tree that it is today. I couldn't pinpoint it, but I think that was the earliest memory I had of college, but no one in my personal life ever encouraged it, only academic life. So, some of those best friends I made, they were going to college, obviously. They knew that their parents have been saving for them for years. LR: I know that you kind of were coming out to your friend group in little pieces here and there. Did you ever feel the need to come out to your family? If so, what did that look like? BA: I think it was eighth, ninth grade as well, sitting right in that range. I told you, like “I'm gay” in my journal, that was like sixth grade or something. My mom actually had read it one day. She was trying to have a conversation with me about it, but ‘cause she did meth, the way she went about it was just really… It scared me, so I never again opened up to her about that. I did tell that cousin I moved in with. She was one of the first people I told over Facebook messenger. I was like, “Hey, just so you know, this is what’s happening,” and then I threw my phone and didn't look at it for like a day. Talking with her, she was similar. She said, “Yeah, we kind of figured. You're the best babysitter and you love playing dress up and with dolls,” which aren't necessarily indicators of being queer, but I think me and who I am and my flamboyancy kind of was a “one plus one equals two” situation for them. She was amazing and 16 made me feel the most comfortable about it. That's probably why she took me in and really helped shape who I am today. LR: Was she the only one within your family that you've really come out to? Or is there others that… I'm just curious. BA: Yeah, like to this day? LR: Yeah. BA: Oh, yeah, yeah. No, my whole family knows. I got married in January, like I said, so they all know. I think it became a point ‘cause I'm 6’ 2”, and they're like these burly men who I think have addiction issues that try to flaunt their masculinity. I outgrew all of them probably when I was 17. It became a dynamic shift where they would call me slurs or they would say certain things, and then all I would have to do is stand up straight and they’d have a switch in their primal mind of this man—which I'm such a pacifist, I would never hit anyone. But they would be like, “Okay, we're gonna give you more respect because you're showing some of these manly qualities.” It flipped a little bit. At that point, when they would make jokes, I will dig in and double down. They would say really crude things—I'm sure you can imagine some of the things they would say—and I'd be like, “Okay, yeah, I'll do that, and then 10 more things.” It kind of became this joke where I think I garnered some respect, not only for my identity, but who I was in the family academically. Being one of the first people, I think that really showed people coming after me that it's a possibility, and just the exposure piece. I didn't have anyone in my family that identified as queer. That has since changed since me coming out, and that's the 70-plus folks 17 I'm talking about. Not one of them had come out, but since, I think there's two more that have. I think that's really awesome with that specific family unit piece. Did that answer that question? I think I rambled. LR: No, no, it did. Thank you. I'm gonna shift back to education for a minute. As you're finishing up high school, not really having that encouragement to pursue higher education, what prompted you to then apply to Weber and look for scholarships? BA: They do UCAW, Utah College Application Week. It's a whole thing in the high schools. All my friends had applied, gotten accepted into schools. My best friend since second grade, she said she was going to Weber. It's right in our backyard; why not take advantage of it? At this point, living with my cousin and having her say similar items with her extended family in Washington. They all went to college. It was like her biological dad, who she didn't really have a relationship with, but she knew like a half-sister or something. Not related to me in any sense, but her family basically coming to visit one point and saying, “You know, you could do this. Like, you are excelling academically, these are options for you.” I just didn’t have money. I was working, at this point, two jobs, scraping by, maybe even three jobs. I think the Oaks in the Ogden Canyon, I worked there for seven years, Starbucks, Texas Roadhouse, and JC Penney. Not all four at the same time, but they lined up a bit there. I knew, even with that schedule, it wasn't gonna be a possibility to take time off to do anything, until about two weeks before the semester, that best friend said, “Hey, I think you should apply, I'm happy to help you. We can get you in here; it's open enrollment. I think it's gonna 18 be a great option. And hey, I'm part of the scholarship program. I got accepted. We can do that for you as well.” So, I think her extending a hand and helping me. This was someone who is still in the faith who left that best friendship we had in that senior year to side with me, I suppose, in my queerness. Her just consistently showing up made me more willing to say, “Okay, yeah, let's do it, we'll figure out the money later if we have to,” yeah, set me on the path for academics in college. LR: After you applied—I mean, two weeks before the semester starts and you're applying? That's crazy. You were able to get a scholarship that first year too? BA: Yeah. LR: Oh, that is amazing. BA: It was. ‘Cause it was a scholarship that's since been decreased significantly, but it did pay for that first year. LR: With that, starting at Weber, how was that different from what you had experienced thus far in education? BA: I would say I don't think it was that different, only because I had already thrown myself in so much that I was—I think maybe the only piece was studying, but I would even say—I don’t know what it is, my family and friends make fun of me for it, but I have a very good memory. I didn't really need to study a ton, which, blessed be, right? But it was doing homework, doing it timely. That first semester, I think I got a 3.8, was like just thrilled over the moon. Then it just continued. I think the transition with taking AP concurrent enrollment really prepared me in 19 high school, which I wasn't anticipating. But when it did, I was like, “Okay, love this.” Then I think I worked in the mornings and nights, so I kept my day free and just went to the library every day with my free time. I guess I was just trying to overprepare. I overshot it and overestimated how much time I think I'd need to dedicate. Then when I found my sweet spot that sophomore, junior year it, in upper division classes, kicked up way more, where I was like, “Okay.” LR: Right. I know you had those four jobs before you started at Weber. Were you working at Weber during that time when you were getting your degree, or were you still working off campus? BA: Yeah, off campus. I worked three jobs throughout my undergrad career. I had a job at Starbucks, I was working at Texas Roadhouse—so I kept those—and then the Oaks. It would be like weekends at the Oaks, weekdays nights at Texas Roadhouse, and then every morning from four to nine and maybe some night shifts if I could do it at Starbucks. So, clocking in anywhere from 70 to 80 hours a week at all three, combining them. Yeah, just saving up for tuition costs. LR: So, you were very busy when you were getting your undergrad. BA: Yes. LR: Wow. As you transitioned into your college, did that community that you'd built in high school follow you, or were you able to find a new community at Weber? BA: That best friend did. Her and I went through the whole undergrad program and that scholarship program together. Different degrees. I did political science because I got a high enough score on my AP government test that I was like, “I'm 20 destined to do this.” But I think she was the only one, and then I built community out from there with that emerging leader piece I told you [about]. They just introduce you to Weber, tell you everything that's happening, you do activities and professional development. I built community from that and, because I think I am extroverted and super social and don't ever feel like home is home, wanted to be at school, wanted to talk with people, wanted to understand other stories. I don't think at the time it was in my purview, but that cross-cultural competency I was seeking, it was needed for me to understand the viewpoints, especially I think [with] Weber having such a diverse community, like internationally. Looking at some of these folks, understanding that there's a bigger world out there, and the view I had of Ogden, “You're never gonna leave here,” shifted, and understanding that that's okay, and change is good, and growth is better. LR: I know that you've kind of talked about this already, so I'm gonna ask it this way: who were some of your queer role models as you grew as you grew up in high school, and then transitioning into college? BA: That's a good question. I think one, that choir teacher I had in high school was someone I looked up to. Beyond that, in my personal life, I think that was the only individual that comes to mind, which is unfortunate. That was my 11th grade year, I believe, maybe 10th grade year that I was introduced to him, so pretty late in life. Beyond that, it was maybe—I was gonna say like a famous singer, but not even, ‘cause I didn't know their life or their journey. I think only that one person 21 throughout high school, and then through the transition to college not really having anyone, so I was kind of just figuring it out on my own. LR: I know that you've already talked about the importance of school for you, and that was almost like your home in a sense. Is that one of the reasons why you got so involved with student government and with what was happening on campus? BA: Yes, 100%. LR: Okay, and what led to that? What led to the involvement with the WSUSA? BA: Yeah, that first year that scholarship program was actually embedded in student government as like the lowest level. That was my general understanding piece is, oh, it's a huge student government, and you get tuition waivers attached to some of these positions. For me, it was lowering the cost of tuition while being involved, which I knew statistically increased your GPA and chances of graduation. I think hearing that from a workshop or something I had gone to. Understanding that, I said, “I want the most chance of not survival, but success for myself, and this is how you could do it.” Kind of just propelled me to make my way up. Since I was a political science major, I was able to get involved with the democratic engagement team to ensure voter registration and a couple of other fun things that were more general and community based, which again showed me how large the world can be outside of my stuck view of just Ogden. Kind of grew and bubbled until, yeah, I ran for the leadership vice president, was elected to that, and then ran for president the following year. 22 LR: One of the things, at least from a historical standpoint, that you're known for is being the first openly gay WSUSA president. Was that something you did intentionally, or was it just, it just happened? BA: That was a shock. When I think of higher ed, I would have hoped that there would have been others, but it just happened. I had applied for the election, was going through the whole whereabouts, and then I thought to myself—I'm already in, I'm already on the ballot—to call a couple of places around not only the state, but nationally to see. I called Encircle, which is an org up here in Salt Lake, and I asked like, “Hey, do you have any records of X, Y, Z?” I called other institutions to see like, “SUU, have you had a queer president?” Like, all of these things. Since that tidbit, I think Westminster, from what I remember learning, Westminster was the only school that had had a queer president at that time in 2019 that was openly gay. Which, I think that comes with so many different parameters and caveats, right? It's really hard to nail that down. But everywhere I called, they said, “Yeah, we don't have any records of that, but let us know what happens.” From that, I remember being elected and then having the interview from the Standard and that making its way to AP World News, and if AP’s posting it, I was like, “Okay, it has to be true. I can stop stressing about it.” Right after me, I know that Ben Ferney, he has since come out. He was an LDSSA president who transitioned to WSUSA president and ran for two terms. I believe he won both, and he was immediately after me, and he's now married as well. I think it let people know it's okay. 23 You do get more attention, I will say. I got a lot of hate, a lot of emails that were not very nice, so it comes with its own pros and cons. But I think creating the space or maybe claiming the space a bit more is okay. I think it didn't hurt that I was a white male. I think that's another piece of it, where a lot of Utah folks are looking at me like, “Oh, he's okay,” you know? Like, “Yeah, he’s okay as a version for that.” LR: With the hate, the mail, the not good side of it, what were some of the things that you did to take care of yourself during that time, and how did you handle that criticism? I don't know if that's the right word, but I can't think of another one at the moment. BA: No, 100%. Great question. I think, as I had mentioned earlier, that's the time where I was really going through it, mental health-wise, not only from the heavy lift, but I was still working at the same time. So, understanding me and the resources available, going through student government, the Women's Resource Center being that primary one for me in understanding what I was going through and providing resources to help with the betterment of my mental health. That was a piece. It was probably not as proactive as it should have been. Definitely should have been that. But mostly just came from understanding my worth, my value, what I'm bringing to the table, and no one's going to take that away from me. As much as you can say what you want to say, I have that same right as well, and I can say when I want to say, and it's gonna be positive self-talk. 24 LR: With the negative emails and whatnot, was Weber aware of the mail, the hate that you were receiving, or was that something you just kind of kept internally? BA: Definitely kept it internally. This was something that I had a prior experience with administration that hinted that they wouldn't care, so I didn't share it. I didn't feel the need to either. I just was on my own journey and my own path and self-worth, and so understood that I could take care of myself better than anyone else, and making it a bigger deal than it would be would draw more attention, and I didn’t necessarily want that either. LR: That makes sense. What year did you graduate with your undergrad? BA: 2019. LR: 2019, okay. Did you immediately go into your master's program at that point? BA: I did, yes. LR: And your master's is in…? BA: Higher education leadership… administration? It's on my degree back there. LR: I'm curious, what prompted that specific degree? BA: I think it just, which is maybe redundant at this point, my love for education and creating a space and community for myself. I wanted to do that for other folks that maybe had similar experiences and upbringings. Hence my current role, belonging and access at the college of law. Marrying that identity of my own for creating a sense of belonging came into, I think interestingly enough, and maybe more pertinent now than ever, the cross-section it has with the law and what we're seeing happen in higher education with EDI initiatives, with flags even. Really understanding that, now more than ever, these folks are probably gonna 25 feel erased, invisible, not important. Me being in this role I think wasn't my first intention of doing that degree. It was understanding though that you have power, that you could implement good changes and policies to benefit all students. LR: Okay, I like that. Did you start your master's program in the fall of 2019 or spring of 2020? BA: Fall of 2019. LR: So, you had one semester where it was nice and normal, and then your second semester in grad school, you now have COVID. Ironically, I started my master's in spring of 2020, so I understand. What was that like for you, where your community is school, to then have that community where you don't get to see them now every day like you were? How did you navigate that? BA: Yeah, that's a great question. That was an interesting time I think for everyone obviously, but that was also the year—that was my first year of grad school, my student body president year. As that had happened, I think being in that leadership position really helped. It lent itself to having consistent meetings and organizing life. This is something that I pride myself on that year is we had to organize folks to understand how we can meet the students where they are in that time. We rallied the facilities at Weber to donate toilet paper, and we passed that out to students in a drive by at the Dee, and a couple of other fun things that helped me understand the need for flexibility and how to pivot. Obviously, that was a major one, so I think I kept hold of that. That was also the same time, 2019, is where I got into a relationship with my now husband. I moved to Salt Lake with him and we lived in Salt Lake. I was 26 commuting back to Ogden, not only for work but for school. Having him really helped a lot to understand that the world is going through a lot right now, but at least we have each other. Did the whole process through it, and now we're married. Maybe finding that home and building that in a new city, in a new place entirely, with someone new, helped reinvigorate my imagination around what a home could be. LR: Wow, that's amazing. Thank you. When did you get your master's degree? What year? BA: 2021. LR: You said that you were working up here in Ogden while you were getting your master's degree. Are you still working at those three main jobs, or had you transitioned to something different? BA: Let's see, that was a full transition. I entered my first full-time role and my career propelled itself. I was the new student orientation program manager through the Student Success Center that first year. Am I thinking of that right? No, that was the second year. That was 2020 to 2021 I was in that role, so I must have been doing something. I'm trying to think. Oh, it's probably on my resume somewhere. I was doing something. I don't remember. I know I was not working at the Oaks anymore; they had closed down. I had quit Texas Roadhouse, so it would have only been Starbucks, but I believe when I moved up here— ‘cause I moved here in February 2020, so a month before the pandemic. I think I probably was working at Starbucks. Then come February, I probably had quit and left there to 27 get my degree by April, and then I was hired as a full-time employee at Weber I think April as well. Kind of lined up. There was like a month or two off there. LR: So, in 2021 is when you were hired full time at Weber? BA: In 2020. LR: Okay. Well, that makes more sense. When did you meet your current husband? And how? BA: [Laughs] Oh, the story. It's funny, so no judgment. LR: None at all. BA: We met in 2019. This was probably May we started talking. He had posted something about hating the administration at the time and I was like, “Oh, I love it.” It was on Twitter, so we talked and messaged back and forth, and that was kind of the end of it. I had no idea who he was or was expecting more to come of it. From what he says—this is his story; I'll say it's alleged—he had a grandma pass in Logan and was driving through Ogden and said that he downloaded Tinder or whatever dating app we were on and found me to message me. Which I can't believe, because after we set up a date, he canceled three times. It was a whole thing. I was like, “You're not really looking for me.” Then come August, the UN had their conference here in Salt Lake for environmental sustainability, I believe, and as a student I was able to sign up for that and attend. I planned a date with him. He worked at Goldman Sachs at the time, and we just met up in the city. I asked him to be my partner under the bell tower on the homecoming dance, and the rest is history. 28 LR: Hearing the timeline, moving to Salt Lake with him in February of 2020, right before the pandemic starts, how long had you known each other at that point? BA: Less than a year. LR: Okay, so it was kind of a quick “Here you go,” but it ended up almost being perfect that you're moving in together, because now if you hadn't have, things might not've worked out. I did like your comment about [how] it changed your perception of what a family could be, being with him. How did your relationship with him then change the way you looked at the world and at your possibilities within it? BA: That's a great question. I think growing up, especially in my family unit, there wasn't an expectation of a long life expectancy. For me, looking forward, I didn't anticipate ever getting married, having children, getting degrees or anything like that. Coming to meet him and seeing his family—they're from Evanston, Wyoming, so just like an hour here from Salt Lake, and his mom and dad are amazing. They've been together for 35 years. He has a brother and sister with lovely kids and he's an uncle. Seeing their family dynamic—so loving, so taking care of each other, so caring of each other—it was nice to understand where he came from. Seeing it depicted so beautifully gave me comfort in understanding that this is something I maybe didn't anticipate for myself, but it is a possibility, because I'm seeing it every single year at gatherings and whatnot. The way that he made me feel and just our current synergy at that time was really awesome to see how we lift each other up and want the best for each other. Maybe me not always having seen that growing up, of someone saying, 29 “You could do better. I expect to see better.” That never really happened, ‘cause it was bare minimum, and “That's fine if you go below that.” It was awesome to get that, and how I pushed myself not only academically, but personally, it was nice to have it reinforced. That was a piece I didn't expect, but having it now, I will never take it for granted. It's something that I think folks could definitely benefit from, is seeing the world and its crappiness and what it could really flourish into. LR: Let's see, after you graduated with your master’s, did you stay? How long did you stay at Weber with in your full-time role? BA: That is a great question. I want to say it was probably seven, eight months. LR: Okay, so not too long after. Did you just apply for the job at the job at the U, or were you just looking for a different job and that's the one you found? BA: Yeah, because of the pandemic and the commute being horrible, I was curious at finding a job here at the U, so I applied for an admissions counselor position in the undergraduate admissions office. I think I applied at Westminster and a couple of other places in higher ed, got an interview and was able to secure that job and started there, worked there for a year, and then applied here in 2022, and since then have been here in this current role at the law school. LR: I know you talked a little bit about the importance of your job right now, especially with the light of everything happening within the higher education, the EDI and all of that. I'm curious, as you saw this beginning to happen in your role, what were some of the things that you saw maybe you could do to have an impact in your community? 30 BA: That's something that I think I'm still trying to figure out, but the biggest piece that I was able to hop on was community consensus. We're unique here at the law school because for our accreditation process through the ABA, the American Bar Association, there are certain requirements that we, as a law school, have to do for our student population. One of those are cross-cultural competency, antiracism, and bias trainings, which, depending on how you meld that for the student population, could be considered EDI. Understanding how we have to meet this expectation, but now it's outlawed, how do we do that? It's me essentially understanding where that gap is and fitting in there. I do a lot of trainings on unconscious bias, on intersectionality, talking a bit more about workshops, trainings, how to unwork a lot of the biases that a lot folks exhibit and really how that could be detrimental, not only for the person being stereotyped or yourself. Those are some pieces I do. I also do really fun things, like for heritage months I do a fun little jeopardy, maybe a book discussion, buy books and such for the students to attend. Trivia, jeopardy, some fun things throughout the year as well. Then for the community writ large here at the greater Salt Lake area, I partner with as many folks as possible to uplift the probably most affected groups and populations by this legislation. I'm working currently with an org that has a grant from the federal government. It's called the Youth Policy Summit, and they basically lift up youth voices, and they have a huge impact on the LGBTQ community. When all of this was happening as well, as a quick side note, I was able to apply for a grant for our clothing closet here, to ensure that we have not only size 31 inclusive options, but identity inclusive. If you identify as trans and you need binders, what does that look like? If you identify maybe as nonbinary, how can we get you courtroom ready outfits and make sure that if you need to borrow something, it's gonna be an option for you? So, looking a bit more at queering up the closet and understanding that that's something that our community needs, and the grant, kind of in its own right, due to the carve out in the legislation, having acceptance there and being able to do that. Looking at where those opportunity gaps are and seizing them was something that not only myself, but everywhere across the country, if this is happening in their state, is trying to figure out, is a bit challenging. But there are avenues, and it just takes maybe the courage, bravery, and consistency to follow through with them without getting dinged or audited negatively. LR: Right. I know this is gonna sound a little strange, but how have you had an opportunity to give back in a more of a role model role to the queer community? Especially to other young students who are coming in and seeing you in a—it's not necessarily an authority role, but they're seeing you live you, you're being you; you're working, you’re advocating. How does that feel for you to almost be giving back in that way? BA: That’s a good question. I don't think I've ever thought about it. I would imagine it feels really amazing. I don't think I’ve ever had someone tell me, you know, “Because you are a gay man, you're helping me feel seen, heard, or listened to in X way.” I don’t think that's ever been stated to me explicitly. I think maybe it's a little more covert than that. 32 But the trainings I do, I think actually—and even if they're not identifying within the community, if they are allies, I do a lot of the trainings and cover identity-based questions and workshops. A lot of folks approach me afterward and do give thanks and say that not only in this moment is it needed, but generally this is something that needs to be educated to the masses. That's always felt really, really good to hear and understand that yes, the work I'm doing is important. Then even working with some of the community orgs, like Equality Utah, right? Looking a bit more at some of these orgs that lift up the unhoused LGBTQIA+ population. Understanding that work seems never-ending, especially here in Utah, but step-by-step I think we can make progress. Volunteering with Encircle, looking at a couple of other places. But as far as maybe explicitly being told, I don't think I've experienced that, and I could be mistaken, but if I did, I would feel really proud of this little Ogden boy who had no hopes or dreams to go to college or inspire anyone, let alone make it to where I currently am lifting up folks and advocating for them as fiercely as possible. LR: Thank you. Okay, let's kind of transition over into more of personal life. When did you and your partner decide to get married? BA: Yes, this was after the election this past year. I think we were joking about it because we got engaged. He took me to Europe last year for my birthday; it's in February. I decided because he was so sweet and generous that I was gonna propose. He had his eye on this ring, so I got it and proposed to him in the 33 Garden of Versailles. It was gorgeous. I'll have to show you a picture later, but stunning. We were like, okay, let's give it maybe three to five years before we actually get married so we can save up and do a honeymoon, get a house, kind of settle ourselves a bit more. Then the election occurred, and we knew based on what had happened with Roe v. Wade and a couple of other landmark precedent cases, and Obergefell, as we've talked about, was established in 2015, that it hadn't even hit its 10-year mark at that point. That's happening this June. Understanding that could easily be overturned, being in Utah additionally, and a couple of other states that we were eyeing with trigger laws, wasn't a risk we wanted to take. So, we decided at the end of December, probably right around Christmas, we spent with his family. We were joking about it, but then we’re like, “No, let's get really serious.” Come January, we wanted to before the inauguration ensure that we could get it done, but it's hard to plan a wedding in a month. We really just devoted ourselves and put it at the end of January with our fingers crossed that nothing negative would come toward the community in that time. Planned it all, January 31 we were able to get married, and has been smooth sailing ever since. We just actually booked our honeymoon yesterday for Hawaii in August. LR: Oh, nice. Well, congratulations. BA: Thank you. LR: I know you said that you're getting your doctorate. Are you getting your doctorate in law, or is it something else? 34 BA: It is something else. It's basically the master’s. It's higher education, leadership, and administration, here at the U. LR: Okay. Oh, but it's a doctorate degree. BA: Yeah. LR: Okay. I guess I got confused because you're working at the law school. BA: Yep. LR: It got a little confusing there. Are you doing that because of that love you have of education, or is there a specific goal in mind? BA: I think it does stem from that love of education, with a caveat. I love education, but after doing that master's program, as I'm sure you know, I never wanted to go back to school. But we're at a point now, I think, not only with the job world right now, employment, right? Everything is kind of scary. Iffy, I should say. Looking at that a bit more, I was curious at opportunities for myself to fulfill my dream, become a policymaker, a decision maker in a room at a table that could make positive changes. I think currently, I sit maybe a step or two underneath that level. But I want to be a dean, a vice president, or a president of an institution that can make these positive changes for students to ensure that everyone feels seen, heard, and valued, where I think in Utah, we're seeing a sweep of folks feeling neglected and folks feeling left behind. This was a piece, after legislation last year, that I knew I needed to step up and make sure that having those letters after my name is going to put me in a space where I could advocate for changes that are going to make the most positive impact. 35 LR: Wow. Thank you. This is actually kind of amazing. I'm amazed at how quick we've gone through this, but before I ask the final few questions, is there any other story or memory you'd like to share that stands out to you in your mind? BA: Ooh, that’s so broad. I don't know. LR: I know, I'm sorry. BA: I feel like I've shared a ton. LR: You have. BA: Yeah, everything, and there were some things I wasn’t anticipating sharing too. Something that comes to mind maybe, but I can't think of it right now. LR: Which is fine. You might think of it later. I know you've lived in Ogden; you've lived in Salt Lake. How are those two places different and similar when it comes to being open within the LGBTQ+ community and just being yourself? How are they different? How are they the same? BA: I think Ogden has made a lot of growth, so I'll start that and preface with that. When we're looking at living authentically, I think I have a lot of privilege and advantages as a white man again, right? I think that's very different, especially in the spaces I currently share with some of my Black lesbian friends, for example. Her experience living in Logan from Salt Lake now, vastly different than probably what I experienced. So, I will also preface with that. I will start with how they are similar. You know, there's not a lot of similarities. I think maybe some of the smaller businesses, they have that proactive foresight, I would say. I'm thinking of Cafe Mercantile on 26th Street. They're owned by a queer couple, and they had a pride flag in their window, 36 right? Some of these places that make you feel seen, Cuppa, I think that they're on 22nd or something like that. LR: They're on 25th. BA: 25th. Okay, yeah. Some of these places that really show up and like, let you know this is a space for you. Where I'm thinking of 25th street, the Kokomo, I've never seen a flag there. Alleged, I don't think I've seen a flag there. The Pie, maybe. Some of those places I think, and Ogden's really amazing at it, is stepping up with those small businesses, similar to Salt Lake. So many small businesses, a lot of them are queer owned, or owned by an underrepresented community in a specific regard. I'm thinking of like our African market, or our Chinese market, or our Asian market more generally. I feel like Ogden, who has a fairly large Latinx population, in looking at Salt Lake, these communities that seem to be oppressed and marginalized band together, in my experience. I have seen that similarity with Ogden and Salt Lake. My upbringing, the population that I was around and surrounded by, very similar to Salt Lake in that regard of, “We have each other because we are being oppressed by the same individual or system.” That's similarities. Differences, I would say it is probably 10 times easier to live authentically in Salt Lake for a lot of different reasons. I think population size helps, because you are less known and you have more anonymity. You're just a part of the crowd, and that is sometimes good, right? You can live authentically without being specifically targeted in on. 37 Looking a bit more at some differences, I can hold my partner's hand walking down the street without fear of—and this has happened in Ogden all the time—having someone chase you down with their car, having someone yell at you or flip you off or call you a slur, having someone somehow degrade you. That happened frequently in Ogden, and I don't think it's ever happened here in Salt Lake to me. Understanding a bit more of the differences, maybe the resources offered. As I mentioned, Encircle, Equality Utah, looking at the Pride Center up here, so many organizations in Salt Lake. I think people refer to it as a blue bubble because it just is insular and supports itself in that way of caring for its community, where Ogden I think is still finding their roots in how to not only organize, but mobilize, and understand that it takes time, effort. I will give a shout out to Stacy Bernal, if you are aware. She's amazing, and she's doing a ton of work down there in Ogden. She actually spoke in an event I went for the law school, and her and I had crossings and we're semi-friends, more acquaintances, but she's a Weber grad as well. Understanding a bit more about that. So, differences, I think they're vast. The community here, not only like queer clubs I'm thinking of, I'm thinking of the signage that's put up. I don't think there's one queer club in Ogden. I think I had to drive up here when I was 18 to go to a specific one, which, you know, creating those spaces is what makes the community. Not only the exposure, but understanding that you have a place and you're valued, and we're going to put our money where our mouth is, versus, I'm sure you've seen like Walmart or something like a big box, selling t-shirts that say 38 queer power or something, where it's a little more generic and doesn't have as much of the thoughtfulness behind it that really shows—and this is probably what I seek in my own baggage—but that shows a sense of belonging, that shows that you're wanted, that shows that you have a place here. LR: Thank you. How do you think it's different for the queer youth today in growing up and being open? How do you think it’s different than what you experienced growing up? BA: Well, one, media, media, media. I think that exposes itself in so many different ways. Growing up, I think I was one of two people that were out in high school out of a class of 500, and that was just my class. It was probably 1500 people in that school, and I was one of two that were out. Looking at that now, I would say the exposure that media gives you, the acceptance and education it provides, goes a long way. I was growing up maybe—this was before it was like highly utilized as I think it is now. Instagram, Facebook, TikTok now—right? Even TikTok—is creating these exposure points for you that you are able to see it, normalize it in your own mind, and maybe even identify with it. That wasn't the case. I think of cancel culture, or maybe some of these shaming tactics for people that show hate. It's basically saying, “I hear you, but I don't have to listen to you.” Like, you can be as loud as possible, but it's not going to make a negative impact on me. Something mirroring what I said earlier is you can say what you want, but I can live how I want too. If I'm going to give you that respect—and I wouldn't even call it that, ‘cause most of the time I ignore haters— 39 is understanding that I can live authentically in my own way. Unless it's impacting you—which you yelling at me is impacting me, but me living my life the way I want to is having no impact on you. I think the youth today have that advantage in understanding the last, you know, since the 80s even, looking at like the AIDS crisis and that even shifting, I think in the last five years, donating blood. That was a big piece as well, right? When I'm thinking of high school or even in college, you couldn't donate blood if you had same-sex sex, and like looking at that in its own way. I think that's flipped now. The majority of folks that have HIV tend to be heterosexual, so the Red Cross has opened donations to homosexual in relationships. Even stuff like that. I think seeing that in the news, maybe being told that, or the opposite, not being told you can't donate blood. Instead, it's just silence. It's saying, “Yeah, you can do what you want, and because of your sexuality, it's not gonna have a negative impact.” Kind of reinforcing and building those walls in your mind, or a moat more so, that you are safe, right? No matter where you are, you have a place here and you're not going to be let down. Some of these things I'm thinking of lend themselves, but I’ll also give a huge shout out to trailblazers. You know, folks that have built the path for us and said, “I'm not gonna be scared regardless, and I'll go down swinging.” Like Marsha P. Johnson inspiring the pride parades in New York City. Looking at a ton of others, like Sylvia, a trans individual, and going even a bit further than that. Folks that are maybe more our day and age, like famous singers, Billie Eilish, Renee Rapp, Sam Smith, some of these folks that have made their way up, 40 maybe they wouldn't be able to do that 20 years ago. Looking at that and understanding that the world is changing, and as I said earlier change is good but—well, I said something, it was effective—but growth is better, I think is what I said. So, understanding that you can have both. LR: With the current administration, I guess we could say, and the current political climate, what is some advice that you would give to young people today on how to navigate and just be authentic? BA: Yeah, and I think it's right now a little more perilous when I'm thinking of, you know, folks with autism potentially being put on a registry, when I’m thinking of folks even telling you, “Please don't put my name out there or any documentation, because I don't want to be put on a list one day.” That's very much a scare tactic, and probably reality, let's be honest, that could potentially happen. But that's wanting folks to feel repressed and wanting folks to undervalue themselves, and understand that “You are only as good as the status quo, and if you deviate from that, or you have any variance, you are less than.” I think the last four years before this administration, we saw the opposite. I'm not going to sing praises necessarily, but understanding that folks that are trans can serve in the military, like it's an option. Folks are choosing to let things happen, folks are choosing not to let some things happen. The only way to not necessarily get your way, but find your community, more so I suppose, is to live authentically, is to understand that one way or the other is going to have an impact on you, and you have a voice at the end of the day. You have a vote, potentially. I don't wanna speak for some undocumented 41 folks, who have that intersectional identity of being queer and being here undocumented, but what does that look like still? Understanding that you have voice, you can organize, you can go to a protest. These are small little ways that I wouldn’t even admit myself 10 years ago, didn't think would have a huge impact, didn't thing would make a difference. But you have a voice not only verbally, but written. When you are on social media, your X amount of followers are gonna see something and they're gonna have an opinion. Most of them, I bet you, will say something. Even if it's negative or positive, they're using their voice. Those that are underrepresented, marginalized, belittled, degraded, whatever it may be, the best place to advocate for yourself, and those are going to come after you, is to stand up to organize to understand that the end is not going to happen tomorrow. But I feel the second you let your voice drop or lower, that's when you feel the walls closing in. So, expand your mind. Know that there's gonna be another day as long as you keep putting a foot in front of the other. LR: Wow, thank you. In a way, you've answered this, but I'm curious. If you had an opportunity to speak with your younger self and give advice to that younger self today, what would it be? BA: Oh, that's a good question. You are loved, maybe not by those that you want to love you the most, but by yourself, and that in itself goes the furthest. You are with yourself every single day, inside and out, inside your head and outside talking to other folks. Understanding that you have a place in this world, keep doing what you're doing. The sacrifices you make, not only familial but 42 personally, are going to have a negative impact on you psychologically, and to take the path you're taking. I never had insurance growing up, side note, so when I got my first fulltime job, I was able to actually go to the dentist and do all of these things. That's a piece that I would not trade for the world. So, keep on the same path. Understand that you are doing good, not only for yourself, but for the world, and that is invaluable. You're not gonna be able to put a price on that. Keep smiling. I think that's what helped the most, is understanding that a positive attitude can shift your mood and give you sometimes what a bad day tries to take away. LR: Thank you. Wow. That was amazing, by the way. Thank you so much for sharing and your candor. 43